Quote from: Reiloth on January 20, 2017, 04:43:52 PM

Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:33:58 PM
Arn't T'zai Byn and Kuraci desert elves a possibility still? I feel like they should be.

Why? For the same reasons a Desert Elf was bizarre and outlandish living in the Labyrinth, a Desert Elf tied to/living in a city or even the Outpost is alien to their psyche. Not to mention 'following the rules' or 'doing what some round ear says'.

I don't think there's anything necessarily outlandish about it. Desert elves and city elves have proven to adapt well to their enviroment. And doesn't the elf RP documentation that elves are constantly moving within and without the cities, outposts etc. anyways?

Here it is.

QuoteThe elven population in cities is in a state of constant flux, as various tribes move in and out, die off, go into hiding, move into other parts of the city, or otherwise simply move. Very few tribes have actually settled absolutely into a given place, and those that have will feel a need to extend their influence as far as possible. For city-dwelling tribes, this redirection of old nomadic instincts can be subtle - domination of the other elven tribes nearby, great wealth, presence in every city; the nature of this will vary from tribe to tribe, but will universally add to the problems they cause for the rest of the occupants of the city.

Not to mention there are plenty of elves represented in Kurac and the T'zai byn. I vaguely recall this being changed recently though.

If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

Quote from: Malken on January 20, 2017, 05:54:57 PM
If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

It would be a qualifiably different experience from playing your typical city-elf.

Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 20, 2017, 05:54:57 PM
If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

Sounds like you just made up your own rules on how a desert elf could be played in a city clan. What happens the minute the d-elf player gets upset about something or another in the clan and decides to leave it, they are insta-stored? What if it's the opposite and the Sergeant doesn't want that elf any longer in the Byn, they become wandering and tribeless d-elves like Staff is trying to avoid?

Quote from: Malken on January 20, 2017, 06:00:20 PM

Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 20, 2017, 05:54:57 PM
If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

Sounds like you just made up your own rules on how a desert elf could be played in a city clan. What happens the minute the d-elf player gets upset about something or another in the clan and decides to leave it, they are insta-stored? What if it's the opposite and the Sergeant doesn't want that elf any longer in the Byn, they become wandering and tribeless d-elves like Staff is trying to avoid?

There have been plenty of city elves in these clans. But they're limited in their usefulness because they don't travel well. That's always been the problem with elves and military clans. And even then, Kurac has a few notable examples of some crazy/scary elves.

So give it desert-elf-run and give it the same restrictions as any desert elf. And yes, that means they'll be stored if they leave the clan.

I don't see what makes it so radical. I think it's just player headcanon that makes the role more complicated than it needs to be.

Quote from: Lael on January 20, 2017, 05:42:28 PM
That's more than a few words in my mouth, from my otherwise completely neutral wording *ahem* (disclaimer, I know it's not), right?

I wasn't trying to say that's what you think, I'm just saying you've got to expect most staff interactions to be terse, and that rarely paints what they say in a positive light, especially when the answer is 'no'.  I was mostly trying to say what they could do to make you feel better about the situation, but that to do that isn't always realistic. 

I'd like to think that if I was on staff, I would spend the time to make people feel better when I gave them news they wouldn't like...  But honestly, after a hundred special app reviews I'm not sure I'd be able to maintain that.  Some of our staff have managed to maintain that, and it's pretty impressive, but I definitely don't look down on those who would rather spend their time doing something else. 

I guess all I was trying to say Lael is the way you phrased stuff came off as though staff are getting their rocks off by not letting you play the game you want to play.  I really doubt that's the case.  I really doubt they want to come off as condescending to a returning player.  In all likelihood, they WANT you to come back and play.  But it's unrealistic to think they're going to bend the rules for anyone.  It happened in the past, it was a problem, and those days are pretty long gone now.

Also, as a complete sidenote...  are you sure that was an Imm NPC giving you the 'find me heads' deal?  Because honestly, I had something similar happen many years ago and I was fairly sure it was a player at the time...  it's just that PC was so stupidly powerful that they could've easily been mistaken as staff.

Desert elves need to apply to play in desert elf clans. Desert elves are codedly different from city elves, but there is only one race - elf - ICly. If you are playing an elf from a city (or outpost, or village) you would pick city elf. If you are playing an elf from the Soh Lannah Kah or the Sunrunners (or whatever other delf tribes might be opened in the future) you would pick desert elf.

Desert elves cannot join the Byn or Kurac or whatever.

.

Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 06:09:58 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 20, 2017, 06:00:20 PM

Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 20, 2017, 05:54:57 PM
If you could play a desert elf involved in a city clan, then nobody would ever play city elves again.

I don't think so. There would be limitations on the role. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the clan, they would be 100% loyal to their clan etc.

Sounds like you just made up your own rules on how a desert elf could be played in a city clan. What happens the minute the d-elf player gets upset about something or another in the clan and decides to leave it, they are insta-stored? What if it's the opposite and the Sergeant doesn't want that elf any longer in the Byn, they become wandering and tribeless d-elves like Staff is trying to avoid?

There have been plenty of city elves in these clans. But they're limited in their usefulness because they don't travel well. That's always been the problem with elves and military clans. And even then, Kurac has a few notable examples of some crazy/scary elves.

So give it desert-elf-run and give it the same restrictions as any desert elf. And yes, that means they'll be stored if they leave the clan.

I don't see what makes it so radical. I think it's just player headcanon that makes the role more complicated than it needs to be.

From Documentation:

QuoteNomadic Wandering:
Elves are nomadic people by nature. It is ingrained in both their culture and their personality. Elves do not like to stay in one place for too long. Some try to explain this by saying they stay out of trouble that way, or because most are hunters and gatherers, or because they love to run... but elves are simply nomadic by nature.

QuoteElven Pride:
From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge. Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe.

Bolded some relevant pieces as to why the Desert Elf mentality may not be well suited to staying inside of a city "Because Sergeant told you to" or not to go around stabbing people "because they looked at you funny". I think even the Byn and Kurac would see why having a desert elf around would be even more of a liability than a trained slave Mul.

Quote from: Molten Heart on January 20, 2017, 06:26:09 PM
It does seem inconsistent that desert elves must be a member of one of the limited selections of coded clans/tribes and city elves are pretty much only affiliated with a virtual tribe as per their background, if at all. I'm not sure I understand how city elves get adopt d into the existing city elf tribes, or if they are born into them like desert elf character are.

This, however, does appear to be ironic. I think it is that Desert Elves are quite powerful codedly speaking, and city elves are not.

.

Quote from: Reiloth on January 20, 2017, 06:27:22 PM
This, however, does appear to be ironic. I think it is that Desert Elves are quite powerful codedly speaking, and city elves are not.

Probably yeah.  I remember when desert elves didn't need to be attached to a coded tribe, and essentially all the power gamer types who just wanted to gank people in the desert or be codedly stronger than others would choose to play d-elves.  The unaffiliated d-elf population is vastly larger than the ones attached to a coded clan.  It wasn't good.

Quote from: Molten Heart on January 20, 2017, 06:31:30 PM
The major differences between city and Desert elves from a code perspective is their guild choices (desert elves can choose "city" guilds and city elves can't choose "desert" guilds) also desert elves can travel further outside without having to rest than city elves, other than these difference, they are supposed to be the same race.

I haven't played a desert elf in a really, really long time.  I recall there being big other differences.  Bonus skills, stats, etc.  It was a karma race for more than just the roleplay expectation differences.

I sympathize with this guy in that 'no' is often the default answer for anything that deviates from norms that have been established in the setting.  I'd like more unusual stuff, not less.

My question is, honestly... if it's not a big deal and you didn't expect pushback... why start a thread?

Quote from: Erythil on January 20, 2017, 06:37:37 PM
I sympathize with this guy in that 'no' is often the default answer for anything that deviates from norms that have been established in the setting.  I'd like more unusual stuff, not less.

Agreed. 

Quote from: Lael on January 20, 2017, 05:42:28 PM
8. Sanvean, is she still around? she was always super nice.

Sanvean is nice. She's off being successful and awesome.

When staff reject an application we typically give you options on how to pursue a similar character, which if you look at the response you received, you did get that advice. It is up to you if you wish to follow it. Sorry that you won't be returning.

This thread is closed I think, but I feel I need to respond, since he later clarified how I was apparently condescending in my response.  I've likely been guilty of being condescending in the past, but this time?  Nah dude.

My response to him, fwiw, was along these lines:

Sorry you can't do that because it's against the docs of [tribe] of origin.

You also can't do that because we don't allow tribeless desert elves.

You can (his emphasis on the underline, it seems!) <do this instead> as an alternative, if that interests you <follow these instructions>.

--

So I guess underlining "can" when giving an optional path that a player can definitely pursue, is considered condescending, in this guy's book.  I guess it just proves you can't make everyone happy.