I was curious to everyone's thoughts on a possible skill/boost to aid guild_assassin's defenses.
I propose a skill_dodge or a boost to % chance to dodge for the guild, and possibly the guild_burglar. This isn't meant to give them the ability to win against guild_warriors of similar or greater ability, but to increase survivability(dodging like 15% more attacks or something). It seems that, especially without a shield, that the class has -no- way of defending themselves. It just seems odd to me that a sneaky type would be carrying around a shield, and something along the lines of footwork and misdirection is more appropriate.
Just a thought. Perhaps I should have posted in the Random Thoughts thread...
Short answer: If your assassin has no defensive ability, you just aren't as badass as you think you are. Even low-agility assassins such as dwarves develop decent defensive capability after enough time and training.
Long answer: An assassin's skillset isn't meant to lend itself to face-to-face fighting. They're the shadowy rogues of Zalanthas, and they get more than enough surprise-attack/stealth offensive capability to balance out any defensive shortcomings they may or may not have. If assassins do have reduced defensive capability--which isn't necessarily true further on in your PC's life--then there's a good chance it's intentional.
Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on February 08, 2010, 04:54:45 AM
Short answer: If your assassin has no defensive ability, you just aren't as badass as you think you are. Even low-agility assassins such as dwarves develop decent defensive capability after enough time and training.
Long answer: An assassin's skillset isn't meant to lend itself to face-to-face fighting. They're the shadowy rogues of Zalanthas, and they get more than enough surprise-attack/stealth offensive capability to balance out any defensive shortcomings they may or may not have. If assassins do have reduced defensive capability--which isn't necessarily true further on in your PC's life--then there's a good chance it's intentional.
I don't mean that a guild_assassin should get the ability to fight well face-to-face early on, but rather have some extra survivability just in case something goes wrong. My idea was meant to replace the need for a shield to defend. I think my longest lived assassin was around ten-days played. I know this is nothing compared to the power of longer lived PCs. But my experience with that PC was that they would pretty much get hit every round of combat, unless eping a shield.
I see guild_assassins as the dodgy eventually be able to turn aside attacks type over the grab a shield and tough it out types. Sure, they should get hit and hit often for relying solely on weapons, especially early on, but every round seems a bit much to overcome.
Perhaps I am underestimating the power of the hidden defense skill and the agility stat. This is definitely possible/probable.
QuoteGuild Assassin (Character)
Assassins are expert killers, skilled in dealing swift and deadly blows to their victims. Among the other talents of an assassin, he/she can move without being heard, hide easily in the shadows, and employ a variety of thrown darts and small sharp weapons in order to strike at his/her enemies from a distance.
Highly skilled assassins tend to become more akin to warriors late in their careers. Having mastered the basic skills, an assassin will often begin to learn a mastery of parrying enemy attacks. The excellent use of poisons also becomes available, as does the ability to climb sheer walls. Also late in their careers, assassins can learn how to effectively knock out an opponent from behind with a sharp blow to the head and take them elsewhere for committing their dirty work.
Assassins are often the simplest people to employ, for various warring factions usually have a desire to see their enemies slain quietly and simply, with minimal risk to themselves. For this reason, skilled assassins are almost never without work.
Aside from all of their varied talents, the most important aspect which assassins must strive to develop is their reputation. No other single characteristic of an assassin will be more amenable to finding employment than an excellent reputation for performing jobs cleanly and efficiently, and for protecting the identities of those who hire him/her.
Jobs which require espionage are also well suited to assassins, though they are perhaps not the very best at this task.
The important parts have been bolded. Assassin's aren't meant to be in a one on one fight for very long.
I suspect your character was just plain profoundly awful at dodging. Patience, grasshopper.
You will definitely be able to be more defensive in a head-to-head fight without a shield... eventually.
Besides, tiny shields like a buckler seem very suited to a fast-moving style, if you'll consider that. Even if not, the guild description strongly hints towards branching parry, which seems to be more along what you're thinking of.
Something to be aware of:
Learning to fight with a shield is good. Shields are helpful, though you'll probably never rock 'em the way warriors do. However, learning to fight with a shield is not a good way of learning to fight without a shield.
As to the general question: yes, young assassins and rangers are frustratingly vulnerable. They get better, and are able to do so many things that warriors can't. It works how it's supposed to. You can absolutely fight without getting hit, even with no shield, even before you learn to parry.
Just assume that you start at -10 days compared to a warrior. At 10 days played, you should be setting starting warriors back on their heels...depending on their stats and yours.
Are you... are you giving away code specifics?
SEIZE HIM.
I've read the assassin help files countless times, and am aware of the parry branch.
Thank you to everyone who took the time to post. I'm wholly convinced that this is an unnecessary idea.
Tek save you all when I get that 30 day played guild_assassin.
P.S. Semotes count as RP, right? ;)
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 08, 2010, 09:32:06 AM
Are you... are you giving away code specifics?
SEIZE HIM.
Morgenes already told everybody that 10 days can't automatically branch from dual shield.
Sounds to me you need to plan your attempts better. There are many ways to kill, it's the plan an execution that matters. The deadliest assassin plans every single detail into what they do... even if they screw up.
Sometimes running away and vanishing into the day/night/crowd is your best line of defense.
You guys just need to accept the fact that you're Foot Clan, not Shredder.
Quote from: Cavaticus on February 08, 2010, 01:43:45 PM
You guys just need to accept the fact that you're Foot Clan, not Shredder.
(http://www.ninjacultureclassic.com/img/layout4/foot_clan.png)
I giggled far to much at this comment....
And Shredder is a warrior/assassin dual-guild special application.. Unfair comparison to us!
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on February 08, 2010, 01:46:01 PM
And Shredder is a warrior/assassin dual-guild special application..
My point
exactly.
I like assassins just the way they are.
I've had two somewhat recent and very successful ones.
Sorry to all you people that saw this.
Some generic room
This is a place...there is nobody here.
Your vision goes black!
Welcome to Armageddon.
This isn't a guild_assassin problem, it's a guild_anything-that-doesn't-start-with-parry problem.
If you can't deal with sucking so badly right out of the box, make sure you prioritize agility for any non-warrior (hell, it's not a bad idea even for warriors). Agility helps TREMENDOUSLY.
There's already a dodge skill. It's called 'defense' and everyone has one.
Assassins are fine, like others already said, they aren't supposed to be having to fight it out. Should be quick, carefully planned attack to accomplish your goals and then an escape.
Assassins are fine. Only one class in the game has a better starting 'defense'. No change is necessary.
10 days played for any class is only probably a step above incompetent, and barely scratching the surface of potential.
Quote from: Bogre on February 09, 2010, 06:39:29 PM
10 days played for any mundane class is only probably a step above incompetent, and barely scratching the surface of potential.
Fixed.
Quote from: Bogre on February 09, 2010, 06:39:29 PM
10 days played for any class is only probably a step above incompetent, and barely scratching the surface of potential.
(...you say that like it's a good thing.)
Quote from: number13 on February 09, 2010, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: Bogre on February 09, 2010, 06:39:29 PM
10 days played for any class is only probably a step above incompetent, and barely scratching the surface of potential.
(...you say that like it's a good thing.)
Whats wrong with roughly 250+ hours at the keyboard to even get slightly good at anything, man! :o
To slightly get good at offense/defense you mean? Comparatively, most skills increase at a rapid rate.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2010, 09:42:34 PM
To slightly get good at offense/defense you mean? Comparatively, most skills increase at a rapid rate.
You will be much better than "slightly good" at base O/D after 10 days of regular fighting. The trouble is, you typically don't see it because you're fighting other people who are fighting just as regularly, so relatively it looks like you haven't improved. And if you have 10% D and go against a mob with 80% O, when you raise your D to 50%, that mob is still going to stomp a mud hole in your ass and make you feel like all your efforts were in vain.
If you keep chugging along, eventually you will reach the point where you can throw down bare knuckles versus weapons and pwn n00bz like motherfucking Chuck Norris.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2010, 11:31:23 PM
If you keep chugging along, eventually you will reach the point where you can throw down bare knuckles versus weapons and pwn n00bz like motherfucking Chuck Norris.
Posts like these really make me miss playing a hardcore badass. :-\
Quote from: Zoltan on February 10, 2010, 12:45:55 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2010, 11:31:23 PM
If you keep chugging along, eventually you will reach the point where you can throw down bare knuckles versus weapons and pwn n00bz like motherfucking Chuck Norris.
Posts like these really make me miss playing want to someday play a hardcore badass. :-\
Fixed that for me.
Quote from: Zoltan on February 10, 2010, 12:45:55 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2010, 11:31:23 PM
If you keep chugging along, eventually you will reach the point where you can throw down bare knuckles versus weapons and pwn n00bz like motherfucking Chuck Norris.
Posts like these really make me miss playing killing ayour hardcore badass with my awesome assassin. :-\
fix'd for me
All I'm going to say is, this has been beaten dead and denied in other threads before. (Including ones started by myself.) The verdict there was "no" as well.
QuoteOne thing I'd like to see in arm is more people focusing on how to make the game intriguing, by filling it with murder, betrayal, and corruption, instead of arguing about how combat isn't powerful enough.
As quoted in Reiloth's signature.