Title says it all. Let's say in spear making for example. As of now I've made over 10 spears out of almost 30 or so attempts (rough guess) and havent noticed any differences. What's the deal?
It depends on your PC wisdom stat of how fast they can learn.
Quote from: Barsook on July 27, 2013, 04:25:03 PM
It depends on your PC wisdom stat of how fast they can learn.
below average for an elf ???
Take your PC's stat as a challenge and roleplay it. Arm focuses on roleplaying not twinking your skills 24/7.
Quote from: Barsook on July 27, 2013, 04:40:40 PM
Take your PC's stat as a challenge and roleplay it. Arm focuses on roleplaying not twinking your skills 24/7.
Yeah... But it'll be a turn off of I have to make 100 spears just to advance just to apprentice... I've been roleplaying being taught spearmaking for almost a game week and I haven't gone up a level and I have used up huge amounts of supplies... even the guy, im training with is getting fed up. I feel like I'm not getting anything out of training :-\
Also, no one will be able to give you a straight answer on exactly how many times you have to perform an action to skill up, as it's against the rules and I'd be suspect of any number anyone would provide anyway.
A couple things to consider. Gaining skill in anything in Armageddon is going to take forever. That doesn't mean your character shouldn't pursue gaining skill as it's own reward, but as a player, you need to know that it's going to be a while. Days played, even. Another thing to consider is that spamming an action in order to try and skill up is heavily frowned upon and not useful, anyway, due to a purposefully-vaguely-defined "cooldown" period for progressing on some (or all?) skills. I've found that a realistic schedule for a character goes a long way, such as doing whatever skill it is for most of the day (particularly if it's your job) and then scheduling in some "off" time for being a person instead of a pants sweatshop or whatever.
Finally, the skill tier names themselves cover large swaths of actual skill level. You're almost certainly improving, you just can't see it due to the coarseness of the skills command output. Skills are on a continuum, they aren't set levels. You shouldn't describe anything going on ICly on the gdb, either. Actually, that's a rule, please don't do it as it reveals IC info and probably who you're playing.
tl;dr It's going to take a long time, but the mad skillz will develop. Also don't spam commands.
When you're learning, it doesn't make sense that to cut a huge swath of destruction through your available supplies as you break one spear after the other in quick succession.
Generally, when we're learning a new skill, it goes very slowly, and when we screw up, it's more useful to take a bit of time to think about where we went wrong than it is to immediately dive into the project again.
In other words - If you're spam crafting, don't. Fail a couple of times, and leave it at that. Try again a bit later. There won't be as much wastage this way and your character will still learn.
Generally, a skill gets a bump when you fail. This doesn't apply to combat, where you usually need to fail many times. As previously stated, there are mechanisms in place to prevent twinking your way up.
A good rule of thumb for non combative skills is to fail once an IC day. This both allows for realistic RP, since nobody is going to make ninety spears a day, and allows for the mechanisms in the game itself to be satisfied. Remember, balance skill grinding with RP. This game's greatest strength is it's social aspect. That's where the stories come from.
Well I know spamming is frowned upon, but at least im making am effort to roleplay it out. Either way, I feel I'm wasting my time. I'll report back when/if I do level up, just as a reference for other people in case they're curious as to how long skills take to learn... I don't think absolutely everything should have to be learned ingame... as a noob its nice to have a few outside references to these things. Personally, I find the long learning times a turn off, especially as my characters have a relatively short life span... I'd rather not invest 5 hours a day for a week to advance one skill to journeyman... in a world such as zalanthas being as hostile as it is, surely people would have to learn things relatively quickly I'm what little time they have...
edit, I've failed 51 times and I've 12 spears completed successfully. Haven't gone up a level yet
As other people have specified (I'm thinking you might be not understanding how important this is)...
there is a mechanism that does not LET you advance after trying/failing for a period of time. I don't think it works like what I'm about to describe, I'm making up a hypothetical, I have no clue as to how it actually works. So here is the hypothetical, to give you some general idea of what we are trying to tell you:
Your race + your wisdom + your main guild + the skill-max + your current skill level = all components to part 1.
How many times it take you to try, before you fail once = part 2.
Part 1 * Part 2/47 + the square root of the circumference of the Black Moon in its current position in the sky = the timer.
So - this means, that you can try to craft spears for up to 53 minutes. If you fail during that 53 minute period, the timer will reset, and you will have to wait 30 minutes until you can try to fail again. If you don't fail turing that 53 minute period, then the very next time you fail, will reset the timer. Once that timer is reset, it won't matter whether you succeed or fail. The timer will not start again, until you have stopped trying to craft for at least 30 minutes. If you keep trying, the timer will continue to wait until you stop for 30 minutes.
Again - this is NOT how the system works. Or at least, I highly doubt it. I don't know how the system works. But again - there are mechanisms in place that prevent you from gaining skills by spam-crafting. You can spam craft til there's no wood left in the forest, and it won't make a bit of difference. If it isn't the right time for you to be crafting, you won't gain skill, period.
Also, failure doesn't equal a skill change. It represents a *percentage* of a skill change. And again - the code is not available, because they don't want this to turn into a hack-n-slash or min-max game. So for hypothetically - there's 100 points between "levels." And failure represents 1 point. So you'd have to fail 100 times before you will see a change - but ONLY if you follow the formula laid out in the hypothetical. If you don't follow the formula, you will never see an increase.
So - relax. Craft when it seems appropriate for your character to craft. Take breaks when it seems appropriate for your character to take breaks. Craft until you fail, then stop for awhile, and do something else for an hour (which is the equivalent of a game day).
This is what everyone is trying to tell you, but you seem to only care about "levelling up." This isn't a hack-n-slash game, and it isn't a levelling up game. It's a roleplaying game, which is why there are mechanics in place to prevent you from gaining a coded advantage by spam-crafting.
That's what exactly how I didn't want to appear - someone who only cares for levelling up :) Well now that I understand it a bit better I'll take my time in training. 2-3 spears a day. Thanks for that.
The secret to spear crafting is to parcitipate in an HRPT. Seriously, if you live through that, making spears will seem like child's play. ;D
And if you die, as I undoubtedly will, you won't need any spears!
Quote from: Mook on July 27, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
The secret to spear crafting is to parcitipate in an HRPT. Seriously, if you live through that, making spears will seem like child's play. ;D
And if you die, as I undoubtedly will, you won't need any spears!
Listen to this person. They speak wisdom.
Quote from: Sockpuppeteer on July 27, 2013, 05:21:03 PM
That's what exactly how I didn't want to appear - someone who only cares for levelling up :) Well now that I understand it a bit better I'll take my time in training. 2-3 spears a day. Thanks for that.
Okay - now I can see you're really trying to understand..I still don't know how the mechanics work, but I do know how I often try to do it (not always - depends on the situation, and I should preface this by saying I don't believe I gain skills very fast at all, and in some cases, I worry I'm being over-cautious.
What I do if I have spearmaking -
I'll try a couple of different types of spears. Maybe I'll try a purple-stone-headed one, and a knotty-wood shafted one. I'll alternate, until I fail at either of them. And then - I'll do just one more, of the one I failed at. And then I'm done for the game-day. Sometimes for the game-week. Or at least, I'll be done working with spears for the day. Maybe the next dawn, I'll try out arrowmaking, or knife-making, or foraging, or I'll go for a hunt with a clannie - that way I'm still using skills, still giving myself a chance to improve at *something* but not obsessing with one thing and letting everything else suffer.
So I switch it up, and don't really focus on one thing for too long, mostly because it *feels* like grinding, which is no fun at all.
one last question (I'm probably gonna hear learn IC) any half decent recipes for spears? Ones I'm making are long wooden ones from poles... I've got long lengths of bone, pieces of bone and slivers of bone but none of them can be used with my spears in crafting... so er... How do I find more recipes?
Quote from: Sockpuppeteer on July 27, 2013, 06:10:08 PM
one last question (I'm probably gonna hear learn IC) any half decent recipes for spears? Ones I'm making are long wooden ones from poles... I've got long lengths of bone, pieces of bone and slivers of bone but none of them can be used with my spears in crafting... so er... How do I find more recipes?
Yeah that's definitely something you have to discover IC. Discovery is always IC, unless it's in a help file. However, I will tell you this - once you pass a certain proficiency, you will see more options when you try to craft things. Analyze is also your friend - if you have a spear laying around that you haven't tried to make yet, pick it up and analyze it. This can either give you a clue, or give you the recipe, depending on your level of proficiency with the spearmaking skill (and whether or not it's craftable by you at all - some things are only craftable by certain clans).
From 'help spear making'
QuoteExample(s):
> craft spearhead pole into long agate-headed spear
> craft shard into obsidian spearhead
> craft long stinger into jagged bone spear
> craft antler pole into carru-antler spear
> craft spearhead short into chitin-headed short spear
For learning recipes you might also want to read the help files for the analyze skill. This will give you a good way to learn how to make spears you see in game without having to find a teacher.
Skills feel like they take FOREVER to skill up when you are working at doing it, and then, one day, you make that next spear, and blam it happens, and all the time and effort put into it makes it feel worth it.... till you try and train it up to the next level. Rinse Wash and Repeat. It always feels like it is taking forever until it is done.
Quote from: Sockpuppeteer on July 27, 2013, 06:10:08 PM
one last question (I'm probably gonna hear learn IC) any half decent recipes for spears? Ones I'm making are long wooden ones from poles... I've got long lengths of bone, pieces of bone and slivers of bone but none of them can be used with my spears in crafting... so er... How do I find more recipes?
The reason people give the:
Find IC
Is because it's not really so hard to find IC. The better you roleplay the easier it is as well. Find people who love to use spears (and I've seen a great deal) And try to strike a friendship. Admire their weapon. Tell them you are a crafter of spears attempting to improve more. They might not hand their weapons (I know I don't) But more then one of them is or knows the person who crafted it. Network. It's a lot like real life.
If you think you have it bad, try bandagemaking. That one is hard. And I personally know most of the things I can do from finding out IG. I either ask people who know more and ask for pointers. People IG love to display their knowledge.
Discovering cool recipes in game is one the high points of playing a crafter, when you get to be like...HELL YEAH. I JUST MADE THAT SHIT.
I'd recommend trying to find a mentor/teacher type figure IG. A character to show your character the ropes, so to speak. It's more fun than asking on the GDB, and they can't tell you to find out IC. This applies to most guilds, to be honest, but having a teacher crafter person is hugely beneficial to new player crafters. :)
Also, don't sign off when you fail to make spears. Signing on, crafting, signing off, waiting RL time, signing on again, etc, is not going to help you with your skills. That's considered avoiding RP and is also protected against. Generally only time spent online counts towards your "can't gain another skill point" timer cool down.
Because I have not seen it mentioned here yet, I'll remind you that it is possible for people to 'teach' skills. The Original Poster mentioned that he/she had been RolePlaying being taught spearmaking. If you can find another PC who knows how to make spears, and go through the RP of getting a lesson, then they are able to 'teach <newbie> spear_making' and give you a little boost that way, not to mention show you recipes IC.
It should be clear that using the "teach" command, while moderately effective, requires two things:
1). Extensive role-playing of how to do what they're doing better before even using the command, and
2). A MUCH higher skilll level than the one you're trying to teach.
Also, in my experience, it gives a very modest skill bump, if at all.
Aside: I'm sad we see a ranking for our skills.
Quote from: bricklayer on July 31, 2013, 12:37:44 AM
Aside: I'm sad we see a ranking for our skills.
>brief skills
Quote from: bricklayer on July 31, 2013, 12:37:44 AM
Aside: I'm sad we see a ranking for our skills.
I don't know why. In real life you would know how good you are at something.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on July 31, 2013, 02:45:06 AM
Quote from: bricklayer on July 31, 2013, 12:37:44 AM
Aside: I'm sad we see a ranking for our skills.
I don't know why. In real life you would know how good you are at something.
You'd have a general idea - which is what the skills ranking provides in Arm. Any skilled tradesman can tell you where he fits on the professional scale, mostly because the terms used in Arm are the same terms used in the skilled trades professions.
Quote from: Maso on July 30, 2013, 02:51:26 PM
Discovering cool recipes in game is one the high points of playing a crafter, when you get to be like...HELL YEAH. I JUST MADE THAT SHIT.
I'd recommend trying to find a mentor/teacher type figure IG. A character to show your character the ropes, so to speak. It's more fun than asking on the GDB, and they can't tell you to find out IC. This applies to most guilds, to be honest, but having a teacher crafter person is hugely beneficial to new player crafters. :)
This whole topic actually made me want to play a crafter. Something I have never done before. Instead of finding it infuriating I see it as a puzzle. Obviously I'm looking for as many IG teachers/mentors I can to learn everything I can. But ai'm approaching it from a: This is a puzzle I intend to solve perspective.
I'm not sure if its too OOC to say this but...
the actual mathmatical solution is
2Xattempts
over 4X losses
devided by
-------------------
Your character's ability to make children smile
+
your characters ability to not starve to death
-
two or three RL weeks
-------------------
= GOAL
Also I'm a firm believer of enjoying the game for what it is.. which is Role Playing Excellence.. take my joking advice with a grain of salt-flats. Any questions you have about skilling up, you will have to answer youself. No one can tell you how it's done.
Personally, I think the thing I enjoy most is interacting with other PCs in the game. I tend not to worry about skill much and just interact as much as possible. But I RP so my PCs always follow the roll that has been set up for them. I try to be as consistent as possible in the way my PC acts. If I do something that's out of the normal and it was meant to happen throw out a feel or a think about it just so the staff knows why or do a update on your story line. Just play and have fun the game isn't intended nor should ever be about focusing on your skills. And always play as if the staff is watching your every move, because sometimes they really are.
I really feel there should have been one response to this question.
"We dont discuss skill leveling on the GDB."
Because I didn't think we did.
*His grumpy old man voice*
Back when I was a newbie, we couldn't even see our skill level and just had to know how good we were based on things we actually did in game. I miss the good ole' days.
Quote from: Desertman on August 01, 2013, 10:09:46 AM
I really feel there should have been one response to this question.
"We dont discuss skill leveling on the GDB."
Because I didn't think we did.
*His grumpy old man voice*
Back when I was a newbie, we couldn't even see our skill level and just had to know how good we were based on things we actually did in game. I miss the good ole' days.
I actually REMEMBER those days. I thought it was weird after a while of not playing due to being too busy in life (wait I was too busy in life at one point in time not to play Arm? How sad...) I came back and all of a sudden you can see your skill levels. I was mildly confused.
The skill level shown can be turned off. There was a time that the level was not listed. It is within the last three years that we have had that added feature. When it was put in some disliked it and staff made it possible to turn it off for those who prefer to just role with not knowing and be happily surprised when they branched something new.
Sometimes I am happily surprised when a skill branches even knowing what level I am at because some skills branch when you don't expect them to.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on August 01, 2013, 12:21:16 PM
Sometimes I am happily surprised when a skill branches even knowing what level I am at because some skills branch when you don't expect them to.
I prefer to know when my skills go from ur mom level to tubular.
Mine are always gnarly.
What are the levels between novice and mastered? If it's IC info, its ok. I scanned the forums and the help files, but couldn't find anything.
Quote from: Elocin on August 02, 2013, 11:10:01 PM
What are the levels between novice and mastered? If it's IC info, its ok. I scanned the forums and the help files, but couldn't find anything.
Novice
Apprentice
Journeyman
Advanced
Master
(And don't worry, there's a file for it.)
Thanks a lots ;D
In case it didn't already get posted: http://armageddon.org/help/view/FAQ%209 (http://armageddon.org/help/view/FAQ%209)
Edit: Thinking it over this might have conveyed a different message than the humour I was intending to conjure.
Don't worry, newbies. Not all of us immediately assume the worst about you. ::)
Don't be afraid to ask questions!
Oh I was making a joke, reading it again might have seemed douchey. Not the point I was making at all.
Keep the faith, newbies. Keep the faith.
About tree fiddy verrin hawks.
I feel like I give the love.. I certainly give newbie love, with the back of my hand...
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1722804/feel-my-pimp-hand-o.gif)
(redacted)
Now how did I do that, oops wrong thread. (edited)
You appear to be experiencing technical difficulties, Potaje.
Live your life the way the character would. If he's a fitness junkie, train constantly - but suffer for it (imagine training rigorously every day, you'd pay a fucking tax for that after a while).
If you're lazy, or unambitious, don't train/achieve as much. just because you can doesn't mean you should (this coming from someone who spamcasts because he's offpeak and there's shit all else to do).
The hardcore, badass athlete says, in sirihish,
"My knees, man... they hurt like hell every day..."
It can seem like it's taking forever, then one day you get there, and you're like, well, that wasn't so bad. Then you die, and start over again. After a while you start to get a feel for when to do things, and after a while of trying out interesting character concepts, you get kind of tired of even practicing and instead spend game days talking to people because it's more fun than putting around with skills, and realize the feel you thought you had for it really wasn't as important, or accurate, as you thought.
I'm still a newb... I think.
I can't imagine not being able to see skill levels. Would require a decent network of AIM friends to figure that out (which is likely heavily discouraged), or one badass IC veteran who has seen and done it all.
Skills take as long as they take to rank up, and your skill levels take as long as they take to change from one level to the next. You should only worry about it if your master level skill shoots down to journeyman.
Wisdom alters this greatly. There's a reason why it's usually my first priority. My characters don't usually last very long so High Wisdom is a must to get anywhere skill-wise.
i don't think I ever worried about "seeing" skill levels in the past, apart from knowing when two-handed could get parry. (That's still a mystery) You just got better. Of course now I can, I look.
Quote from: solera on October 12, 2013, 03:39:48 AM
i don't think I ever worried about "seeing" skill levels in the past, apart from knowing when two-handed could get parry. (That's still a mystery) You just got better. Of course now I can, I look.
As far as I'm aware that's actually something you have to request, I believe? You might want to ask staff about that, but I do believe it was mentioned on the boards and staff did answer, in fact, that for certain guilsd that do not get parry and you wish to go that route, you would need to formally file a request when you believe you are at the appropriate level.
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 12, 2013, 06:21:35 AM
Quote from: solera on October 12, 2013, 03:39:48 AM
i don't think I ever worried about "seeing" skill levels in the past, apart from knowing when two-handed could get parry. (That's still a mystery) You just got better. Of course now I can, I look.
As far as I'm aware that's actually something you have to request, I believe? You might want to ask staff about that, but I do believe it was mentioned on the boards and staff did answer, in fact, that for certain guilsd that do not get parry and you wish to go that route, you would need to formally file a request when you believe you are at the appropriate level.
Yes and no. The bold part is incorrect if a certain guild does not get parry you can of course try to request it but it is not an established route you can go down.
For certain guilds that DO get parry branched from Dual Wield they can also branch it from Two Handed. This is not automated as the code does not allow for something to branch from two different skills. A request should be made in this case.
Pending changes to Two Handed Combat (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30290.msg335120.html)
Quote from: Morgenes
Parry will branch from two-handed skill for classes that would get parry from dual wield.
Unfortunately, it appears we can't have the same skill branch from two different skills, so for now parry will still only branch from dual wield (if it should have). We'll have to revisit two handed branching parry at a later date.
Bushranger you literally answered the question I answered.
But you were smarter in the way you answered it, what I MEANT TO SAY was what you said, but I seemed to have forgotten that not every guild branches parry at all.
Whoops.
In order to become a true master, you must first kill your own master. This is the only way.
If parry branched from two handed that would be amazing. I'd never work on dual wield again, at least, not until I'd gotten as good as I could at two handed.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 12, 2013, 05:34:37 PM
If parry branched from two handed that would be amazing. I'd never work on dual wield again, at least, not until I'd gotten as good as I could at two handed.
If you get it to a high enough level where it would branch staff will do it for you via request. The reason it doesn't is because of the old Diku code which wont allow one skill to branch form two different skills.
Now we at least know our "level". Which level it is, is too cryptic for me, but I will ask next time I don't die first.