I've been thinking about this for a while. You might not agree, but to me, there's just something wrong with dwarves. The race, both from an IC and OOC point of view, seems to have so many things missing, and a lot of strangeness to it. I've often considered playing one, but I never get around to it because:

:arrow:  The race seems out of place in the world. There's no history, no reason for them to be, they have no place in society and there's no racial atmosphere. Nowhere in the world (as far as I've seen and heard) will you see something where dwarves have had an impact or influence on anything. There's no dwarven community and the only real racial quirk they seem to have is their focus. They just seem to be there because someone thought it would be fun, and replaced the occasional human NPC with a dwarf NPC and left it at that.

:arrow:  The fact that dwarves start out with ridiculously bad sirihish. Like I said above, there's nothing that indicates that they shouldn't be speaking sirihish, because there's no dwarven quarter, no part of any city where dwarves are dominant and there's no inside culture among dwarves the way there is for city elves. So giving dwarves a starting sirihish so poor that you practically can't understand them doesn't make any sense to me, and is a major annoyance and one of the reasons I still haven't gotten around to playing one.

:arrow:  The focus, while a decent idea, just irks me. I can't think of a really good focus, and when looking for help in the documentation, I get a list of foci that looks like an 8 year old wrote them. Seriously, almost every one on that list is either way too easy or way too hard, not codedly/realistically viable, too silly, or something that noone would ever decide to make the goal of their life. Let me take 10 random foci from the list:

50. Breed 'fighting erdlus' and get them introduced into the arena
51. Educate a half-giant
52. Figure out what those damn Drovians do all day
53. Tunnel to the center of the earth
54. Find and eat a piece of metal
55. Become a templar
56. Learn to burrow like an sand-demon
57. Bring back Luir
58. Learn to predict the weather
59. Make a pair of pants
60. Make a pair of shoes

I took a random handful of foci, and every one of them are IMO ridiculous. Breed fighting erdlus? While an acceptable idea, this would require more imm assistance than I think they're willing to give any one player. Tunnel to the center of the earth? Neither coded nor realistically possible. Find and eat a piece of metal? Well, what life-changing event would cause anyone to make that the goal of their life? And so the list goes on and on. Make a pair of pants/shoes? What kind of rubbish focus is that, seriously. The list looks like one big joke, and if a new player sits down and looks at it in hopes that it'll help them find a good, realistically possible and viable focus, they'll most likely either be discouraged or end up making a dwarf with a totally wacky focus. Unless I got it all wrong, a focus is something that a dwarf gets because something in their life has given them an incredibly good reason to do this specific thing. I can't really think of anything that would give a dwarf an irresistable urge to "27: Teach a kank to count".

Should something be added to dwarves? I would start by giving them at least a little bit of racial culture. If they can't speak sirihish worth a damn, that must be because they rarely need to. So there must be some close-knit group of dwarves in at least the large city-states, right? Also, the focus list in the documentation needs a change. Remove the ridiculously lame foci that misleads new players. And maybe a little bit of history? They must have done something in the past, there must be something to dwarves other than a short, hairless human who is obsessed with their single life-long goal.

The result, from what I've seen, is that 9 out of 10 dwarves I've met are played exactly like humans. I've met a handful of good, well-played dwarves and an army of dwarves that seemed like someone just wanted a higher strength and endurance so they picked a dwarf. I think that if the race is fleshed out and the suggested foci is made something other than a list of jokes, we'll see less dwarves who are played just like humans who can't pronounce their own names.

I didn't really know which forum to put this in, so a staff member can feel free to move it accordingly.

Quote from: "Hymwen"There's no history

They were once a slave race that was eventually given equal rights.

Quote from: "Hymwen"I would start by giving them at least a little bit of racial culture.

Sounds like a good focus to me This is actually something I have wanted to do myself (in-game) for a little while now.

Quote from: "Hymwen"If they can't speak sirihish worth a damn

I did e-mail the staff a while ago about this, they said they'd discuss it. I'll e-mail them back to see if anything came of it.

Quote from: "John"

Quote from: "Hymwen"There's no history

They were once a slave race that was eventually given equal rights.

That's not a lot to go on. I did a search through the entire storyline on "History of Zalanthas" on the documentation site, and dwarves aren't mentioned a single time.

With the history of Zalanthas being shaped by the players as much as it is, perhaps that's because dwarves were once slaves (non-playable race?) and there have been no earth-shaking dwarves on the political scenes, as they are often filling more practical positions in the campaign.  How about a dwarven general whose focus is to rally an army to crush some large, and powerful enemy?  And is there a Gladiator-esque story regarding the freedom of the dwarven people as slaves?  Can Muls be taught to break-dance?

- Marduk

Quote from: "John"

Quote from: "Hymwen"I would start by giving them at least a little bit of racial culture.

Sounds like a good focus to me This is actually something I have wanted to do myself (in-game) for a little while now.

Why would you have to work in game to create a culture for a race that already exists?  As a well-established, ancient race with its own language, dwarves should have a culture already beyond, "we obsess about shit."  I say build it oocly and stick it beneath dwarves to prop them up.

Ninja edit: In agreement with OP, the listed dwarven foci are absurd, whimsical, and jocular.  Which in turn helps create the impression that the dwarven race is an absurb, whimsical, and jocular one.  Short hairless humans that talk like pirates, who obsessively want to teach a kank to count?   Is this the impression that dwarves are supposed to give?  Just wondering.

There are plenty of foci that strike me as good ones (and aren't inherently comical or silly), and also plenty of threads that talk about it.

A focus doesn't need to be easily attainable, or even realistically reachable within a dwarf's lifetime. It just needs to be something that makes a good purpose for his life.

Here's a few foci for dwarves I might consider playing someday:
- Become the most famous Bynner ever
- Find a way to tame a bahamet
- Build the fastest wagon ever
- Wipe out all the desert elves
- Learn sorcery
- Cross the Silt Sea
- Father 100 children
... and plenty more

edit: Oh, and in the history file...

Quote1394
The joint forces of the Clear Waters Oasis tribe and the Ironsword clan attack Allanak's obsidian mine, managing to free the slaves. Thrain Ironsword dies in the battle along with several templars. After the attack the Clear Waters Oasis tribe, joined by a horde of former slaves, lay siege to Allanak. During this time, Tektolnes is mysteriously absent.

Thrain Ironsword was a dwarf. I'm assuming his clan was too. Surely some of the older players can elaborate.

There are dwarven comunities.

As to culture, you are right, there is not much in the docs on that. But that is because Focus over rides such. I'm sure that any dwarven comunities have different cultures.

As to history. I have been able to put together from the docs that dwarves are a VERY old race, possibly descended from halflings.

But they, as a race were enslaved, this would cause the loss of history for them. Maybe figure out who keeps the histories in game and deal with them...chuckle.

Though, I agree that there seems to be something missing in dwarven play and such. Really, the docs have not changed for them in MANY years, unlike the other races.

But, I think this is a good thing over all. They have the straight jacket of focus but are otherwise allowed greater freedom of play then the other races.

The only time I've run into any problems is when a staffer (normaly one with MANY years less play then me and no where near the dwarven PC's) decides the limited docs mean one thing and I decide it means another.

Someday though, I hope that we get somebody on staff with a passion for dwarves like Halasters passion for magick.

That sounds like a good idea. Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area. Players and admins alike could help out flesh out the whole culture of said dwarven tribe, their own crafts, their own history.. Perhaps a tiny touch more advanced when it comes to technology compared to the rest of the Known World species.. Less magical, more advanced in other ways.

Unlike desert elves and halflings, this new tribe could at least be able to interact in a non-hostile way with the rest of the playerbase in many more ways than the other two could.

Desert dwarves? Heh. But deep inside, I think the OP has a valid point.

That is a fantastic post that does a great job of examining the problems with the dwarven race in the MUD.

As a side note, the races and a lot of the creatures in Armageddon MUD are taken from the AD&D campaign setting named "Dark Sun". Dwarves in the Dark Sun campaign are hairless and have a focus, and are not elaborated on in much more detail than Armageddon MUD has elaborated on dwarves in Zalanthas. The dwarven race was implemented a long, long time ago in the MUD, and in my opinion is no more developed than when I first saw it in 1992. Human culture has evolved dramatically since 92, and even elven culture has developed a fair bit (not very much for city elves, unfortunately). Half-giants and muls also seem far more intuitive in how they could be RPed, according to historical docs and roleplay documentation.

Maybe we need a dwarven messiah to come down from the sky and write up a new racial concept for the dwarven race.

I would rather not see another iso tribe pop up as a response, but I do think that Hymwen raises a lot of good points. Dwarves are really cool in a lot of ways to me. I like the focus idea, but it is hard to bring it beyond "become a great hunter" or "be really famous" or "be better at chopping weapons than any other PC ever" without Imm assistance and something realistically attainable. Plus, a lot of dwarven foci I see thrown around are completely ridiculous. Granted, a lot of them are jokes, but not all.

They should be able to speak Sirihish fluently, in my opinion. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to. The language barrier seems to just be a frustration that one has to muscle through at the beginning of playing a dwarven character, after which they can go about playing the character properly.

All in all, I think dwarven culture needs some work. Some history of dwarven tribes would be good to see, as well. Foci are cool, as long as people don't make them too silly. Otherwise dwarves end up looking like Ed, Edd, and Eddy trying to get jawbreakers or whatever it is they do in that show. That said, I have seen some wonderfully played dwarves, and I fully intend to play one in the future. I like the race, but I do agree it could use some work.

Regarding the dwarven place in history:

First, I can think of at least 2 dwarves who made Zalanthan history, right off hand.

Second, much akin to Earth history, only major players make the history books.  On Earth, this means national-level politicians holding single-seat positions:  monarchs, prime ministers, presidents, dictators-for-life, etc.  On Zalanthas, this means sorceror kings, their sorceror challengers, and Dragons.

Third, dwarves (as far as I know) never existed in isolation.  They've been living right alongside humans for as long as anyone can remember.  They don't deserve any special mention in Zalanthan history any more than erdlus or chaltons deserve special mention, because they aren't really exceptional.  They are, and always have been (again, as far as I know) commonplace.

Regarding acceptable foci:

Really, you should just lower your standards a little.  You seem to have a very strict interpretation of what exactly a focus should be.  Some of my past dwarven foci, for example:

Become the Spymaster of a Noble House
Explore and map the world
Create a mercenary organization and build it to rival the Byn
Become the Guard Captain of a Merchant House
Develop a comprehensive body of herbal and poison-related knowledge

These are all good foci, without the superlative nonsense.  The focus doesn't have to be "Become the most uber spymaster ever," because the "most uber" part is implied in the dwarf's obsessive personality.  If he succeeds and becomes the Spymaster, naturally, he will still obsess about exactly what the best way to be the Spymaster is, and if he ultimately succeeds, then it becomes more of a protective focus...or perhaps it shifts to "have total information awareness in Allanak..."

Some good thoughts Hymwen, especially about the bad sirihish.  The idea of focus doesn't really bother me at all, but some of the examples from the list you quoted do, I agree that the list almost seems like a joke.  The list could probably be broken down into 5 or 6 actually useful examples, or maybe even saying "A Dwarven Focus can range from making a pair of shoes, to becoming the worlds best gladiator, or be as whacky as learning how to burrow like a sand-demon."

Quote from: "LauraMars"Why would you have to work in game to create a culture for a race that already exists?  As a well-established, ancient race with its own language, dwarves should have a culture already beyond, "we obsess about shit."  I say build it oocly and stick it beneath dwarves to prop them up.

Given there's no player accessible/commonly known about dwarven communities (and Krath only knows if they exist), I'd say it's pretty much fine to say there has been no community. There is the occassional song and their language. But I'd say these are remnants from an ancient past and that for the most part, any dwarf community aspects has been lost to time.

Quote from: "X-D"There are dwarven comunities.

If there are any I'd say that's IC info and should be discovered ICly. Unless of course you can point to one in the docs

Quote from: "Malken"That sounds like a good idea. Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area.

Now this is something I'd support (although only if it wasn't completely iso. Perhaps it's suffering an important loss of some local resource, and so begins to enter the larger world in order to survive). Although it doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of the halflings. If I was able to live longer, I'd e-mail the staff to ask to spearhead it.

X-D's response covers most of my initial thoughts, but I can add a bit. From the docs I see that "the origins of dwarves is unknown", but according to the history timeline, dwarves have been around from the beginning. That leaves a lot of room for development. Is it documented anywhere that dwarves were once slaves? If so, it might be useful to add what happened next, and why dwarves are now integrated into human society. Speaking of which, I agree with the OP that the lack of sirihish to start with is wacky.

Regarding the focus: while the list is somewhat silly, there are so many great focuses to try for, given a little brainstorming. The RP'ing of a focus can be a blast, if you have a chance to get into it.

It sounds like some docs on how dwarves have fit into society throughout history would help many players get a feel for how to play one, and how to interract with them.

John.

It was mentioned by a staffer on the GDB actually in a past dwarf thread...about 3 years ago true, but still.

Though.

Since I am not staff, and I did not say where they may be...or anything else really, you never know, I could be lying or simply not know what I'm talking about. Is saying dwarf families exist IC? They do. If families exist then comunities exist. It could be nothing but VNPC's or a room desc. Again, I have not said, nor would I.

As a derail, I understand where people are coming from on the NON-staff IC info forum nazi's. I've never been told by staff that anything I've said here is too IC, and when and IF staff does say anything on it then I will listen and curb my posting.

someone above sed:

QuotePerhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area

Actually, a number of players got together about a year ago to serious discuss a dwarven tribe and work out the details of a concept.  Ultimately, it fizzled out, but if anyone is interested in reviving it, we might be able to dig up the work already done.  I know I for one wrote up some fairly extensive preliminary docs.  

Then again, who is to say all tribes have to be old and long-existing?  Maybe rather than have one turn up or be discovered, current dwarf PCs could start a tribe of sorts now.  We think of most tribes as having roots in the past, but today is tomorrow's history.

Unless this was another group, it was more like three years ago. I spearheaded that, but at the time, I was involved with a character that ended up living for nearly two years, and I forgot about it. When I wiped my computer, I lost the address of the discussion board I had set up, which is a disappointment. There was a lot of dwarven stuff in there, and although it seemed more pointed to a tribe, a lot could be used for culture in general.

I, for one, am very interested in creating a decent dwarven culture. I think that the focus is actually something that would give rise to a culture, despite it. Surrounding yourself with others that understand what you are about when you obssess and who might help you in exchange for helping them is something that makes a lot of sense to me.

You must remember, though, that dwarves are often a prominent example given in Allanaki art of rebellion being crushed. This may mean that Tektolnes would dislike any dwarven gathering in his city or area of control. Certianly there does not seem to be a section of dwarves in either City-state and no coded tribes or centers elsewhere.

That can be remedied, but that takes players, or, as you said, staff.

Quote from: "John"

Quote from: "Malken"That sounds like a good idea. Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area.

Now this is something I'd support (although only if it wasn't completely iso. Perhaps it's suffering an important loss of some local resource, and so begins to enter the larger world in order to survive). Although it doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of the halflings. If I was able to live longer, I'd e-mail the staff to ask to spearhead it.

It's not this simple.

Re-opening the halflings is a matter of putting a racial choice back on the menu in the login screen.

Creating a new dwarven tribe from scratch would require the creation of a whole new set of docs, the crafting and tuning of a new playable area (or areas) and building dozens of NPCs, objects, buildings etc.

The re-worked halflings were the result of (I think) a year of work at least, if not more, by Sanvean and others.

While it would be great to see dwarves get this level of attention, it isn't as easy as simply deciding not to re-open halflings, and instead create a dwarven tribe overnight.

That said, if you want to submit some dwarven docs, or start working out concepts for dwarven tribes, then please do so.  mud@armageddon.org is always accepting e-mail submissions.

-- X

Well, on the focus thing. I think it's silly that a dwarf has only one focus. When I played dwarves, I started with a relatively easy focus, then changed it as the character grew. For example I had a ranger/hunter in the north and when I got in game his focus was to hunt down a raptor. Well eventually I got my ass kicked by one and kept going back until I killed it, skinned it and I changed my focus to something else.

I think dwarves focus are just something to keep them going in the harsh world. There's no need for them to be pursuing one focus for 60 years. That's kind of boring if you ask me. If the focus is small then you can really develop your character and roleplay him different from time to time as the focus changes over time.

I agree somewhat with Running Mountian. If staff thinks that a focus should take years upon end to achieve, then I don't agree. I do think they should not change every five minutes or days or weeks, but once a RL year seems a good ratio to me, provided they actually achieve it.

There's been plenty of dwarven history in the game. Old players will remember a dwarven location too, and what happened to it.

It's unfortunate that the stricture against passing around IC information means that most of history gets forgotten. Maybe there should be a lore page accessible to bards, so that they can sing about these past events.

Quote from: "desert_spider_eater"With the history of Zalanthas being shaped by the players as much as it is, perhaps that's because dwarves were once slaves (non-playable race?)

Dwarves were free before they were enslaved in the south. There are still dwarven slaves in the south, but in the main they are free again.

One thing I'd like to see is that a new dwarf character doesn't have to include a focus right away. Instead, maybe an obligation to seek out an elder and derive a focus from discussions with him.

This may give dwarves more of a common direction, rather than strange focii flying off in all directions.

Haha. Makes me think of a concept: the existentially conflicted dwarf who is unable to find a worthy focus, and thus has no purpose in life.

Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"It's unfortunate that the stricture against passing around IC information means that most of history gets forgotten. Maybe there should be a lore page accessible to bards, so that they can sing about these past events.

I really, really, really support some form of this ideal.

I also strongly support the idea of updating the Timeline with less signifigant events than the ones currently accounted for.