My issues with Kick, and also NPCs

[X-D]

Well, We now know that any discussion of realism is a tangent to elven mul, Hmmm, wonder if he thinks so in the game, Must never have seen the parts in the desc or docs that say we strive for a high level of realism, oh well, maybe he will start a string where that is the title, but then we will not be able to talk about the game.

Anyway, except for the very limited messages that go along with kick I find it to be nearly perfect, myself almost all of my chars are rangers and rarely do they have the kick skill, I have never even come close to getting killed by something by kick, not by beetles, scrab, gith, halflings, duskhorn, tandu, raptor or pc's. Now for another tangent, kinda to annoy somebody I admit, I think Bash needs a little tweaking, I think it needs to take into account the Total Weight of a pc/npc, not just the naked weight, nothing worse then a 10 tenstone dwarf (short, low center of gravity) Wearing another 150 stone of gear and a backpack weighing 50 stone...lets see here, 250lbs+325+125=700lbs gross, getting knocked down 2-3 times in a row by a 12 tenstone (say 300lbs) critter.

But, I like kick the way it is, damage/skill wise weather I am playing a kicker or not.

Oh, I would love to be able to use the kick skill with a location arguement, IE 'kick elven mul head' With a modifier too skill depending on where you aim, maybe elven mul would like it as long as you gave it a damage mod too, say kicking somebody leg/arm/shoulder pretty easy but lower damage, torso/waist harder but higher damage, head/neck hardest, best damage.....hhhmmm, and should maybe be easier to kick a prone person...by a lot.


oh well, I think I mentioned all this before, as well as adjacent room combat sound echos:) oops, Tangent. :twisted:

[creeper386]

Well, I'd have to say that just because Elven Mul would rather the topic stay alittle more closer to the coded mud part of "kicks" rather then a whole flow of posts about how good Tae Kwan Doe is and rather it is or isn't a useful fightstyle. Even for me thats alittle off topic.  :twisted:

But I must say that I think their should be a lower cap of damage, not much, I'm thinking having it about 10-15 points of damage for highly skilled people, but for the most part right now, if someones good at kick but the rest of their offensive skills are crap, as long as they have the defense to keep them alive kick does some mean damage, and it's rather unrealistic I think, they can't get anywhere near you with anything but they can be the shit out of you with kicks.

But I don't a lower limit cap would do much to help things out, because even know you can make a kick and continue on going without any problems, you still attack just as good, still defend just as good.

I think what would balance skills out that there should be penelties during the lag of skills, Like with bash you fall down, but it doesn't seem to eaffect anything, I've seen people that fight from their ass better then their feet, and it makes it so the only good bashing does is to stop the other person from using skills and fleeing.

So, what I'm saying is I think it'd balance things alittle better to have penelties after some of the skills such as bash and kick, disarm I'd say maybe some, but only offensive penelty as opposed to both offensive and defensive.

I'm sure it'd take some coding to do, but I'd suggest some sort of penalties for some of the combat skills and making max kick damage about 15hp(Still rather high I think). Sure noone ever talks about anything I suggest because noone reads my posts, but oh well, thats what I suggest.

Creeper who is sure he could have written this post better but each paragraph talks about something "*alittle*" different or trying to clear anything up. If you don't like it oh well!

[Elven Mul]

creeper, I might rise to take your bait if only I understood your posts. As it is, I'll ignore your jibes, and note that making fun of someone is not the same thing as disproving their points, no matter how good it makes you feel.

By the way, I completely agree that bash ought to be based on mass/density rather than size as it currently is. I always burst out laughing when I see a dwarf bash an elf and be sent sprawling, or similar situation. But this discussion is about how kicks are coded.

[X-D]

Ok, I must figure out what somebody put in my food cause I did understand creeper's post and have no real arguement  with anything except I think the -penalties- from using a skill only should happen when you fail, disarm and bash already have that in small ways, But I have never noticed it with kick, I still do not think the max damage should be lowered, just made more rare in any number of ways.

and I always wander off on tangents in my posts, cept I do make sure that at least part of it is on subject :wink:

[John]

I think Sydney water (which is notoriously dirty) has been getting to me cause I also understand creeper's post. I agree with creeper and think failed kicks should have give the opening a bigger chance at counter-attacking with a pretty good blow. IMO that makes complete perfect IC sense.

[Elven Mul]

I must apologize to Creeper, who in fact wrote a clear post. The one I was referring to was X-D's, and specifically his jibes, not Creeper's.

[X-D]

Well, I figured that a few jibes was better then an all out attack for a reply to a post that I myself found mildly offensive, elven mul posted in a forum called code discussion which means that other people are going to post opinions as well as facts and those peoples opinions are as valid as anybody elses and they happened to think that these were valid points on the -realism- of the kick skill in this mud, And so, I found the manner in which elven mul went about trying to get the string onto the track that in his opinion (somehow more valid then others) it should be on rude.

This is all IMO of course.

[Delerak]

Kicks are way too high.  I remember someone who could do kicks for 30+ damage.  A while back when the armor didn't absorb.  And my friend got kicked for 22 damage the other day by a newbie warrior.  Well anyways, I think it does way too much, and I also think that the skill 'kick' should be taken out and replaced with something along the lines of a skill called pugilism.  Which would be an array of warrior skills, including trip, elbow, shield punchs, headbutts, and the list can go on.  Each would have its ups and downs, such as trip taking them to the ground like a bash, but doing more damage then a bash, but also being extremely hard to land on anyone.  Anyways thats what I THINK about it.

[Elven Mul]

bah, X-D, you make my point for me, if these are the kind of feeble justifications you are going to use. Stick to the actual discussion please.

[Glowworm]

Ok, after some consideration, I'm jumping on the bandwagon that kick _does_ need some tweaking.

I wouldn't say that the problem with kick has to do with the relative damage it does to weapon-based attacks, as many of my character have been damaged for upwards of 40 damage in one regular hit (not subdued, asleep, backstabbed, and it wasn't some super strong NPC).  I think that the problem is it seems to do near maximum damage every time it lands, varying little on body location and armor.  I think the damage range should be more variable, like weapon-based attacks, though not necessarily less powerful.

Another main concern raised by Elven Mul, as I see it, was that many NPC's seem to be much more adept at killing with kicks and bashes than killing with their teeth, claws, beaks, etc.  I see this as a very legitimate concern.  If this is indeed the case, why would they have teeth/claws/beaks anyway...they'd just kick their prey to death.

[X-D]

Elven Mul Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2002 5:34 am    Post subject:  

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bah, X-D, you make my point for me, if these are the kind of feeble justifications you are going to use. Stick to the actual discussion please.

Grin, My point exactly, and it is just that type of rude and in this case rather um, oh yes, Feeble comment that will make me continue to post completly off subject...And prove what point for you, that you are rude and belittle other peoples opinions for no other reason then they do not fit in with what in your opinion is the correct way to go about things on -YOUR- thread?

cry me a river for sticking to the topic instead of heading down lengthy tangents that have no applicability whatsoever to the discussion and that, on these boards, typically derail the topic in an egregious manner no matter how interesting.

OOh, lookie, big words too

But no, here we are in the Code Discussion forum waffling on about martial arts needlessly. Open another discussion in another section of the boards if you must, but don't derail my OP please.

any of this look familier to you elven mul? I will re-state these things are also YOUR opinion, it also has nothing to do with PROVING (I know, not a big word, But you used it, maybe you should look it up then look up opinion then print them both out and stick em someplace where you can see them while posting) any points what-so-ever. I would really like to know what makes you think your opinion is any more valid then anybody elses, and if yours is the only one that counts, why did you post in the first place?

Tony wrote

I know it wasn't what you wanted to hear Elven Mul, because it seems you're concerned solely about the damage and NPC skill levels. Then again.. you haven't been the -nicest- guy throughout this thread when people differ from the topic a bit.

Seems I am not the only one that feels this way

And I still think the posts on martial arts and such has everything to do with the subject name of this thread, considering most of it was about martial arts kicks, But of course FACTS don't prove anything I suppose.

The Fact is, kick in the game, compared to RL is horribly under powered
but myself I think to raise it more would hurt playability, which for the most part is what the martial arts posts were about, that and some clarifications here and there.....Oh, and Elven mul made a comment on SCA too, so I have to add this, being in the SCA myself I can tell you that in combat kicks are not allowed, anybody wanna guess why? Too bad, gonna tell you anyway, because a person in armor  finds it very hard to dodge...well, anything and it only takes one sweep of an armored boot to a persons knee when they are wearing 100-200lbs of armor to do real and horrible damage to that knee. Don't believe me, Find someone who is a fighting member and ask em.
Don't believe them, put on some armor and find somebody dumb enough to join you and try it.

Oh, don't remember who said it on this thread, But I truly love the change kick to pugilism idea, goes along well with the kick person location idea and diff damage for diff areas and so forth.

And see, in the end I did get back on subject.

X-D, Who is starting to feel unloved...and loving it

[krelin]

My inclination would be to make kicks parryable like any other strike.  (perhaps with a slightly more convoluted equation, if necessary)

[Elven Mul]

And again with your whining, X-D. No wonder many of these discussions never get anywhere. Stick to the topic, don't waffle. And don't post sentence-by-sentence responses that are composed of your delicate offended sensitivities and mocking repartees, no one is really interested in that crap.

This is a game, a realistic one albeit a game. if you want to continue whining about realism and putting armour on and kicking people in RL, you need to get one. A real life I mean. It's a game, a simulation at best, and to approach it with the kind of realism you feel so indignant about being challenged is pretty much impossible (and, frankly, geeky).

I'm glad to see though that other people do feel a real discussion is warranted.

[kiddgoth]

Well I just wanted to comment on the discussion, but I think it might be fun to word-fight too, naw its not my style..

Well just to let everyone know I play a d-elf warrior, just over 12 days old and I can kick the shit out of npc's easily, even two gith on me trying to kick me is futile on their part, I grab their leg and down they go, so maybe its a stat thing that is keeping your warrior from being a bad-ass kicker or dodger, you will just have to find other means to dispatch the vile beasts that like to kick you, but I do believe damage should be varible on strength which I am sure it is, now I know my elf kicks hit almost all the time but I am sure they do average damage at best and I have exceptional stregth for an elf. But the kick should stay the way it is for now until they change the code for armored beast also, cause let me tell you something if you come face to face with a silt-horror or bahamet, the only thing thats going to hit it is your kicks. I saw a whole party of byn fight a silt-horror not one blade hit, they killed it kicking it to death just food for thought.....peace out

[X-D]

Elven Mul Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2002 11:16 am    Post subject:  

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And again with your whining, X-D.  

anybody can scroll back to read the rest of that rather funny post


Now, that has to be the funniest one yet, as the only whining I see is elven mul about "staying on topic"

And I am happy to that elven mul noticed the "mocking repartee" since he is the one that started that when he first started 'whining' about people getting off topic.

Maybe I will start a poll on who's posts sound indignant:)
And to cover the sentence by sentence responses, well, it's fun and annoys you which, makes it even more fun.

Yup, just a game, and if you don't approach it with that kind of realism then it will rapidly degrade in quality like anything else you only do in a halfassed manner, Get a real life, chuckle, I flew my Navajo to dayton and back 2 days ago, What did YOU do?

[Carnage]

I'm on the degrade kick bandwagon.

Zalanthas isn't full of martial arts experts. Sorry to burst bubbles here, but there aren't any Bruce Lees around here. Nobody's taught the proper way to do that Spinerooni 9000 kick that dislodges your opponent's jaw and makes their head explode while you do triple backflips. Not to mention the fact of armor. If anything, an armored opponent should have a penalty to kick. I have a hard enough time trying to reach my leg up high in jeans. How the hell are Zalanthians able to kick people in the head while wearing layers of armor?

[Carnage]

Yup, just a game, and if you don't approach it with that kind of realism

When was the last time you and your buddies lynched a magicker who spun webs of deceit? Or you stepped outside and were jumped by a six sword-wielding mantis? Or had your mind invaded by a psionicist?

[Supreme Allah]

Aww, Carnage, I generally tend to agree with your posts.

This game is based on realism in a fantasy setting. I know, I know, you're gonna say that that's a contradiction. But it really isn't because kicking exists in real life and thus -is- comparable on this medium. Me kicking you has little or nothing to do with magickers or templars or the lack of steel.

Now if I started saying, "Whoa, those Krathians do too much damage with their fireballs. REAL fireballs don't do that much!" then that would be a viable argument.

Martial arts don't exist in Zalanthas? How do you know that? Just because there isn't specific documentation of it doesn't mean that no one in the world's out there experimenting with a specific style of unarmed combat, possibly more effective than the ones we know today due to the greater need for them as well as the generally superior level of physical fitness.

But I do agree that certain forms of equipment would likely keep you from kicking effectively. Virtually all forms of greaves and some of the heavier plated boots especially. I imagine that looser-fitting sandcloth or leather pants would allow for it, though. But I'd try and roleplay around that myself.

[Carnage]

Martial arts don't exist in Zalanthas? How do you know that? Just because there isn't specific documentation of it doesn't mean that no one in the world's out there experimenting with a specific style of unarmed combat, possibly more effective than the ones we know today due to the greater need for them as well as the generally superior level of physical fitness.

Because the code nerfs unarmed so fast it ain't funny.

Honestly, though, I don't think there's any sorts of martial arts in Zalanthas. I think there's types of unarmed fighting, but mostly "Blind Sandstorm", where you go nuts and kick at the crotch as hard as you can while poking out your opponent's eyes.

Realistically, though, I couldn't see the martial arts coming together because people don't have enough time for it. I'm not an expert or whatever on feudal Japan and how the Shinto-tuji or whatever clan made money where they could hang around and meditate and train all the time, but I just can't see it in Zalanthas. Everyone has to work or do something to make money.

[John]

I agree that the damage that's being done at the moment by most NPCs should be reserved for master kickers and it should take a long time to get to be a master kicker.

As for there are no martial arts in zalanthas, I'd like to think kicking is a step towards unarmed combat, but I'd like to see tutors going around teaching their combat styles, with some martial arts. But that could just be me.

[Rindan]

Just nit picking on a single point, elves and raptors can and should kick hard.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you had to pick two humanoid sized creatures to NOT get into a kicking match with, elves and a raptors would be near the top.  Raptors are specifically described as having claws in their feet designed to gut its' pray.  As far as descriptions implies, the raptors kick (and accompanying claws on its feet) is potentially its most devastating attack.  On the issue of elves, you are talking about a species that can outrun and out distance most mounts.  While elves are physically not strong in the upper body, hence the poor strength and inability to swing a weapon hard, I think it is fairly safe to assume that a kick from a creature that can whisk its body through the desert at lightening speeds for long distances is something one should avoid.

[Elven Mul]

Sorry X-D, but as much as you obviously crave this kind of self-validating exercise, I don't waste my precious time arguing with people who have one standard supercilious zero-content reply type to everything (we've seen yours what, five times so far?). Go ahead and feel superior, have the last word if you want, but I think the only person who will believe in that kind of crap will be you. I'm here to discuss, something that I hope to continue doing in spite of deliberate roadblocks and derailments by people who love to see their self-affirming output on screen.

Rindan: good point about raptors and kick. However my thinking is that a raptor already attacks with his deadly slashing claws (my understanding is a raptor's "arms" are fairly useless), and if he can't connect on an opponent like that, why would he be able to do so with a kick attack? But yes, I guess a raptor kick could be fairly vicious if it connected, you are right in that respect.

As for elves, I believe the speed and endurance of elves is more a function of very low weight, long muscles/legs, and various sundry adaptations rather than just raw leg muscle power. That is not to say elves don't have very strong leg muscles, of course (it says so in the documentation), just that it seems to me an elf is the way he is because of a whole-body adaptation rather than specific leg strength only. For example, when you think about the difference in strength between a dwarf and an elf, the dwarf will probably have stronger legs than the elf, by quite a margin. Carrying a heavier body, and MUCH heavier loads requires that kind of extreme strength (for which, in this example, dwarves are supposedly known for). A dwarf would just not go as fast or as far, because of the difference in mass, body shape, leg length, differring physical adaptations, etc. But in terms of raw body strength, I doubt very much an elf would be as fearsome as suggested, and a dwarf would certainly be stronger (let alone a mul or half-giant).

[creeper386]

But the kick should stay the way it is for now until they change the code for armored beast also, cause let me tell you something if you come face to face with a silt-horror or bahamet, the only thing thats going to hit it is your kicks. I saw a whole party of byn fight a silt-horror not one blade hit, they killed it kicking it to death just food for thought...

I must say... This shouldn't be the reason it should stay the same, this is the reason it should change! If skilled warriors trained in sword fighting(Or club, or spear or whatever) can't hurt some sort of creature I don't think their feet should be able to hurt them. These are SUPPOSED to be massive creatures that are powerful, but they are taking down by kicks. I know I had about a 3-4 day warrior in a byn group that ran into a silt-horror, he rarely landed a hit with his weapons and hit with his kicks more often, it's just silly.

And the same goes for everything else, if a raptor or gith can't hit someone with their weapons(Even though with a raptor I well agree I would think his attacks are ALREADY with his feet or biting or something) how in the hell should they be able to get their feet past the defenses? It make NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER.

Like I said I don't think just toning down the damage done by kicks well do it, making kicks harder to land due to defensive skills should be fixed. I'm sure parry or shield works is including in defensive of a kick, when it should. And also I think on top of that, there should be a penalty to kicks and other skills that effect offensive and defensive stats, even if they succeed, because even if you hit someone your going to have to take the time to catch your balance and everything, but if you land the kick the SAME penalty should be giving to the person that was kicked as well as the damage.

In a world where weapons are primarily used, martial arts and such tend to go down the drain, from what I've seen Zalanthans have used weapons for a long time, because weapons tend to provide a quick way for anyone with little to no skill to kill, on the other hands, martial arts may be more effective against another un armed person they aren't that great against armed people, and it takes ALONG time to develop the skill for it, and I must add that this whole paragraph is why I'd say there isn't any major forms of martial arts, sure some good brawling techniques and such, but nothing greatly developed.

Sure, kicks are strong when against untrained people, but ussually, two highly trained martial artists can kick the shit out of each other, and still be up for continuing, because their bodies are hardened to take it also with skills they MOVE with the kicks. Then if you include armour, most damage from kicks would be from falling and bounding around inside of it specially with chitin and bone thats common in Zalanthas, but even hardened leather would take a good blow.

Kicks are strong yes, but they aren't really that strong unless wielded by someone thats really good at it, and even hardened leather much less anything greater then that, wouldn't allow the movement for kicks. And you see people running about in full bone armour, probably about similar coverage as platemail, and yet they still are doing fancy kicks? They'd hurt themselves more then anyone else, they'd end up on the ground, getting hit by their opponent.

Kicks are meant for skilled versus unskilled, and ussually not meant for dealing death blows, sure claws or spiked boots would do more damage, but kicks aren't as clean as weapons when it comes to one person killing another.

Now this is all a really long post, I don't care, deal with it. Oh and Elven Mul, I was on yourside that previous post comment was downing you but the person for ridiculing you, but now your just letting whats his name make an ass out of you.

Creeper wondering now if the great martial artists that play Arm are going to say how they got their jaw dislodged and knocked out for 5 hours from one brutal kick that five foot tall asian chick hit them with.

[Delirium]

I just finished sparring with this Asian chick...

:shock:

Generally, I agree. Unless you have years of martial training and are wearing clothes that you can easily maneuver in, you're not going to be doing tons of damage with a kick.

Perhaps we could compromise and add in good stun damage if you hit them in the right place, but little in the way of actual HP damage. That way you have the opportunity to knock the wind out of someone, *then* take them down with your weapons?

[Twilight]

Hmmm, all of a sudden, I'm seeing this as two distinct arguments which people have tried to mend into one.

PC vs NPC or PC kick - If its a PC kicking, its a function of their skill in kick, really.  People have noted that there are some anomalies at the low end of the kick range.

NPC vs PC kick - Ok, this is where I think part of this derails.  This is not so much a function of the kick skill, IMO, but rather how skills were set on the NPC.  Having created on other MUDs before, I could totally understand and see a creator here putting an NPCs regular skills -lower than they would normally- and making up this lower power by increasing the kick skill, with the -intention- that the kick skill should be the primary damage.  I think if you start talking about specific NPCs, a general argument breaks down.  Except in an overall sense, a mek is harder than a tregil, I don't know exactly how difficult a particular creature should be.  Thats the perogative of the creator, as is the ways in which they wish that creature to damage you.  If you have problems with specific creature, I'd say email the mud, or log an idea that they check X skill on Y creature.  For example, what if the base template has a skill of 90%?  And this was intended?  No wonder it is kicking you do death.  Or, it could also be something left over from the legacy environment of kicking doing 1-3 damage a hit, when it wasn't a big deal.  Best way to deal with that is addressing the mobs, imho, rather than the kick skill.