n00b gear

[Krath]

I hate using the quote system so I will just answer each of the questions and seperate with a
spaced line.

I currently feel with the way things are done, it is fine. I think this whole idea is an outreach so
we can be more newbie friendly, which I am not in favor of.  However many times I rant and
rave as well as anyone else about wanting to have more PCs, I am much happier with qualitity
over quantity.  By placing merchants with "n00b" gear in the hall of kings you take away the
best part of armageddon from a first time, or newer player..Mystery and interaction. New
players currently learn quickly, you do not just go up to nobles half-naked with a loincloth
and a ripped shirt asking if they can walk you to the nearest armor store. I mean, the most
exciting part to myself about armageddon is when I first start in a new city or area and I have
no clue where anything is. I learn that I need to figure out where things are on my own and that if I
do not, then I will not be living long. Seriously, how are you suppose to have lived in a city all your
life if you do not know where the local bazaar is? It just does not fly and it is becoming common.  They
also learn that armageddon is a harsh world and not everyone will be friendly or help them when they
need it. Could this be deterring to newbies? Yes, however it gives them a complete feel for
how the games is and should be played.  As someone said to someone in a previous post when
they complained about someone befriending their PC, then trying to kill them when they slept, you
will learn from your mistakes and you will never do it again. So, basically Quirk, I do not wish to see
this implemented because of the fact, I believe it will make the game "easier" on newbies
when in fact it should not be.

[Quirk]

New players currently learn quickly, you do not just go up to nobles half-naked with a loincloth and a ripped shirt asking if they can walk you to the nearest armor store.

I fail to see what you see as an advantage about this. Firstly, we get the newbie tempted into unlikely RP and secondly we perhaps have the player put off by the "unfriendly" response. I don't believe that this is going to change the quality of player we get, though it may well change the quantity.

I mean, the most exciting part to myself about armageddon is when I first start in a new city or area and I have no clue where anything is.

People differ. I myself hate starting the game under such circumstances, because I find it makes it harder to RP my character. Things my character should know, I do not. This is only compounded if I find it difficult to find out where to get essential gear.

Seriously, how are you suppose to have lived in a city all your life if you do not know where the local bazaar is?

They're going to find out sooner or later anyway. Forcing them to ask directions to survive merely ensures that finding out is the most stilted experience possible.

They also learn that armageddon is a harsh world and not everyone will be friendly or help them when they need it.

That's partly because they're forced to display their ignorance to other people who have more important things to do. There are other ways to discover this that make far more sense from an RP perspective.

Could this be deterring to newbies? Yes, however it gives them a complete feel for how the games is and should be played.

How do you make that out? Either someone bends their character to take pity on the newbie, or they endure some frustration trying to find things out alone but manage anyway, or they get into a hopeless muddle that their character should never have got into by approaching someone unfriendly, or they never find out and decide to stop logging in.

So, basically Quirk, I do not wish to see this implemented because of the fact, I believe it will make the game "easier" on newbies when in fact it should not be.

Why should it be hard on newbies? You've not given one reason that makes me believe that the way it's done now makes for RP that makes any more sense (much less than it should, in fact), or that it's not an equal or greater deterrent to the newbie good RPer than to the persistent newbie twink. It's not helping playability, it sure as hell isn't helping RP - what exactly is it helping?

Quirk

[Krath]

We are just going to agree to disagree, because I hate writing long post. I will write you an
email today explaining my reasoning.

P.S> i h8 you  

[spawnloser]

Krath, I'm not sure how you think that starting with a stock outfit based on region is less feeling like starting in your 'phat Midgard newbie suit' ?  It's even more standardized than that H/S nonsense, if you ask me.

Still, I'm not sure merchants in the hall of kings is a good idea.  To get a new starting suit based appropriate to region, you would need to have already pointed to set your region to pick from.  At this point, we may as well have somewhere for you to spend all your newbie cash (or not) on region special gear that isn't craptastic like the stock shoes, shirt, pants, pack and cash platter that we get.

Still, the arguement that having to learn where to get that kind of stuff in game is important, I still don't think that them looking like a complete n00b is going to make it any easier to figure out...and with a little guidance (if they are in n00b clothes people may be able to find an IC reason to help without too much bending, really) they can figure it out, know the info and not have had a crappy time trying to do it, meaning they are more likely to stay.  Those players that just can't figure it out, with help but without handout, maybe we don't need them...but whatever, I don't see how having n00b clothing or not is going to change whether they learn...and giving anyone guidance without handout can be in character for someone.  I'm not suggesting anyone break character to do so, but something along the lines of, "Go back to the tribal market, you dirty long-neck!' can give them information to go off so that they can ask someone else that would be more agreeable to the n00b.

[Akaramu]

By placing merchants with "n00b" gear in the hall of kings you take away the best part of armageddon from a first time, or newer player..Mystery and interaction.

So, basically Quirk, I do not wish to see this implemented because of the fact, I believe it will make the game "easier" on newbies when in fact it should not be.

How new PCs starting with equipment they would realistically have from their background takes away from the game and makes it too easy is beyond me. Yes it is harsh for a new player to lose all their starting sid, but is it realistic? That money is supposed to be the value of equipment they already possess, and not just a huge pile of coin in their backpack. Asking about the bazaar is not THE way for a new player to have unteraction, interaction is about sitting in taverns trying to make 'friends' or getting a job. A new player will look for the shops anyway, to buy food, sell the simple ring they crafted, or find the plant they were asked to buy by a potential employer.

Personally, I have sometimes made up 'virtual equipment' my PC should realistically have possessed, but I couldnt find it in any of the loaded shop lists after starting. Thus not spending the money at all, even though I really wanted to buy the item. How is making up virtual items because you cant buy what your character would be wearing any better?

[Krath]

No one has told me how or why it is bad that newbies have to search for equipment. I do not see
how it takes away from the game, and I still do not see how stock newbie gear benefits the game.

[Akaramu]

No one has told me how or why it is bad that newbies have to search for equipment. I do not see how it takes away from the game, and I still do not see how stock newbie gear benefits the game.

Krath... they have stock newbie gear NOW.

They have to search for equipment anyway. The idea was never supposed to provide them with everything. Just to get rid of the generic newb suits and the unrealistic amount of coin which is too easy to lose for a new player.

[Krath]

What is wrong with the Current newb eq then. You have not explained that either. And if the
amount of coin is unrealistic, lower it. I guess I am confused as to WHY there needs to be
a change of equipment. If _you_(not just you akaramu) Think you are given too much
obsidian at the start, you can always wish up for them to take some away.

[jhunter]

I think the amount of starting coin is fine, that IMHO should be left alone. And Akaramu, that starting coin is supposed to be for you to get things that your pc had thus far in its life...it's hardly unrealistic...in fact for some pcs its really not enough to even equip yourself with basic stuff. (Ever played a hg?) :roll:


The only thing that's come up about the idea is that I agree there should be different starting clothes for new pcs, perhaps a free shop in the hall where there are many different types of clothes...but IG they are all basically worthless and you still enter the game with whatever your normally would generate with starting coins.

[Anonymous]

What is wrong with the Current newb eq then. You have not explained that either.

Hey!  There's a new PC!

I guess I am confused as to WHY there needs to be a change of equipment.

Hey!  There's a new PC!

[Krath]

See below

[Krath]

Ok, And the problem is? The same thing will happen with this "NEW" noob gear once everyone
figures out what the descriptions are. I think it would be a waste of time to code, IMHO

[Cenghiz]

As I said before... I totally agree with Krath.. All newbies have a flag [newbie] before their ldescs. We'll always understand who's a newbie. Waste of coding.
[derail]And different players react differently. For me; a newbie flag means my char will interact with him if it's possible IC, won't steal from him and won't kill him. So he'll be welcome to the game. I know a lot of PC's around also try to interact with / hire / help newbies in between RP boundaries. And I do know we're more than twinks. If the flag [newbie] disappears -and I insist we'll always see the flag anyway- the support of other PC will be cut down. The newbie will helplessly see my char ignoring his, just because my char wants to.[/derail]
There's only one chance.. Sell wrist razors or luxury silk clothes in Hall of Kings. I won't think anyone with a wrist razor is a newbie. I guess nobody will.

[Delirium]

Once the "newb gear" has been in place for a while, people will know what's for sale there, and all of those clothes will likely be shunned and avoided by most older characters, and it will still be easy to pick out characters that are likely newbies. I've seen the system in place before and it really doesn't make much of a difference in perception.

I like the way it is. It's simple and relatively painless. You log in, spend the next hour outfitting yourself, getting tattoos, whatever - and then it's all over with. I don't believe in restricting myself to items I "must" have (and therefore have to hang about in newbie gear waiting for it), I just come up with a general idea of what sort of stuff they'd wear and go with it.

And even if you don't know the area, if you pay attention to where you're going and actually read room descriptions, it's not very hard to find your way around the game at all. This is going to sound bitchy, but if a new player can't even be bothered to read room descs and check the helpfiles before logging off in disgust because they can't find the ph47 13wT store, do we really want them?

[Krath]

This is going to sound bitchy, but if a new player can't even be bothered to read room descs and check the helpfiles before logging off in disgust because they can't find the ph47 13wT store, do we really want them?

Marry me?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Marry me?

To which I'll refer you to this post.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=95669

Sorry Krath, I'm afraid it was never meant to be.  Though we do need a new fluffer over at the harem, after Bubba snapped the neck of the last one.  Interested in applying?

*remove codpiece*

[Akaramu]

I think the amount of starting coin is fine, that IMHO should be left alone. And Akaramu, that starting coin is supposed to be for you to get things that your pc had thus far in its life...it's hardly unrealistic...

*sigh* Is my english really that bad?

It is unrealistic for a newbie to be left with almost nothing at all if their 900 starting sid are stolen from them. Those 900 starting sid should not exist as a big pile that can be pickpocketed because they forgot to keep it in their pack. It should exist as actual gear. Also, some of the gear that a character would have, and want to wear, and can afford, isnt available in any of the shops of their city at the time. It is only available after a lucky reboot or shop list change after the saturday patch. Which is why I was sometimes forced to make up virtual items.

[My 2 sids]

Back on the clothing track.

Krath, people have given you reasons ( I know, I wrote some).  Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them any less valid.

One other thing (aside from new players vs new characters) is that people would be choosing gear based on their guilds and subclasses. Just because you choose thief as a guild doesn't mean you'll be one.  Maybe you'll get hired as an aide to a templar.  Now what are you going to do with low starting money and rinith-rags of black?  Newbie gear is gear for the masses.  It's perfectly acceptable to wear newbie gear for almost anything and thus it's perfectly acceptable to start with newbie gear.

As I've stated before, the only things I'd like to see added to the Hall of Kings are no cost tuluk class (or maybe some simple decorative) tattoos.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Okay here is a solution.  You can give them tickets in the Hall of Kings.
Then there is some Wal-mart associate there to give you stuff for your tickets.  

You don't pick. It's random based on a city locale.

like this.

>inventory

You are holding:
a torso ticket
a pants ticket
a cloak ticket
a backpack ticket
a couple weapon tickets

>offer torso tuluk

The Wal-mart dood gives you a breastplate of mash potatoes in exchange for your torso ticket.

offer weapon tuluk

The Walmart-dood gives you a super soaker in exchange for your torso ticket.

offer weapon tuluk

The Wal-mart dood gives you a muzzle loading .50 cal in exchange for your weapon ticket.


You get the idea.

And also, if you want to appear a traveller, pick from a couple different places.

Then when they come in, give them maybe 200-300 sid in their inventory, which they can put in their backpack and close that they got with their backpack ticket.

Sounds fine to me.

Then they have some sid left to buy more personal things, waterskins and food, and the ability to survive until they join a clan or start making sid from their trade skills or whatever.

That sounds like a good solution to me.

[sacac]

you need almost 400 to buy a mount (most of the time)
which wouldn't matter at all, you'd have to sell everything you owned just to buy a damned mount with that kinda of plan. Most of the time I think that would skrew rangers/ and other outdoorsy, non-elven groups.
That was to Shoka.

and it would most of my pc's because.. wow! I can't buy a damned mount to support myself! Even though I've lived so many years

[Shoka Windrunner]

Fine then give all new characters also a nice little mount ticket that gives them a fuggin kank.  Or mount based on location.  And if your a half-giant, yes you can get something bigger or something.  Shit do I have to think of everything?  Unlock your brain, expand on an idea, rather than whining.  Whining solves nothing.  Solutions, good or bad, do help solve things.

The main point of this discussion was that it is OOC to steal from a noob just because you know OOC that they have money.  That is unless you steal from every single PC and NPC you see.  Period.

It's also unrealistic and OOC in a sense that a noob carries around 1k of sid in their inventory.  Either give them an hour of nosteal flagging or do something else.  Stealing from them is by far the most OOC thing I've heard of in a long time.

It's already bad enough that people will hunt down magickers by themselves in the desert just because they aren't a Krathi or an Elkros or Nilaz or whatever.  Oh he's just a vivaduan, he can't hurt me.  Oh he's just a Whiran, he can't hurt me (spam scan).  Jeezus.


Not really yelling at you sacac.  Just yelling I guess.  It gets sorta annoying to me, reading all of these threads, and seeing everyone arguing, but no one trying to hit a middle ground.  I tried that.  Then you have newbs, with 400 sid in their pocket instead of 1k.  If your a thief and you thrive on thieving from newbs in the inn, then I'm sorry, you'll have to steal a little less from them then.

Anyway.  It is a solid idea, it takes care of all the problems, and still gives whoever a chance to score two to four hundred sid.

[Vettrock]

I don't like it.  I like my 1000 sid, and I like to spend it on think for my character, that I want, not that are randomly handed to me in the hall of kings.  I almost always put 400-500 sid in the bank right away when I come into the game, and use the other money to buy a kank and a weapon or weapons for my combat types, and If I am playing a crafting type to buy my materials.

[Dan]

I've never had a problem with going and finding some shops as soon as I start a character. Using the first two hours to get set up with the things I would have. If someone sees you in your newbie clothes, so what? They think you are either a newb, or just starting that character. Well, 50% of the time they will be right. I think the system is fine, where you have enough coin at the start to get a few pieces of armor/clothes, weapons and mayby have enough for a kank left. No need to fool with it.

[Cenghiz]

What you want: Putting shops in Hall of Kings to buy different types of clothes, or even anything.

Aim: Disguising the newbies.

Estimated success: The twinks won't undestand that 'green dyed simple sandcloth shirt' or 'soft leather sleeves' is a n00b gear for about a month or so. Then they'll start understanding which's a n00b gear again. And now they have an excuse; "I didn't know that he was a n00b..". Most twinks take a lot of risks and die early. They'll be in Hall of Kings earlier than most of us will. And I'm sure they'll waste time examining everything in there.

Estimated losses:

1.The newbies will right go into hunting the second they're approved, because they're rangers and they have their armor and weapons (if imms prefer to sell them too.)

2. Some newbies won't bother learning the location of the bazaar for long. (I've got my goodies, dude.)

3. Some newbies will lose to opportunity to change their lives... My first char... I planned to use two nice daggers to be the master assassin. Then I saw that nice halberd and using my subguild, I became a hunter just because I liked that halberd. I died as a hunter, who never used the skill 'backstab'. Of course this is not a good example. The events will affect the beginning of n00bs' lives less, because some will rush to 'action' instead of interacting.

My comment: Let the n00bs carry their lazy asses to the bazaar. Waste of coding time. It won't succeed. No sire. Let them start naked so we can have some fun in Gaj. Let them have to walk on burning coal with naked feet to get to the bazaar. Let a band of gith protect the entrance of the bazaar. Let the temple of Drov be the entrance of Bazaar and let there be 4 NPC drovians casting curses continuously.
....
Let there be light! (Wow. I felt like a god for a moment.)

[Angela Christine]

Changing newbie clothes won't help.  A while back everyone in the world had the same newbie outfit, you can still see it in the Hall of Kings.  Don't put money in the pockets of those black trousers though, because they'll disappear when you point.  Anyway, it didn't take long for people to recognise the new newbie outfits.  You might not recognise the newbie outfit from the Blackwing outpost or Red Storm if you've never been there, but you soon recognise the newbie outfits from places you've been.  Increase the number of newbie outfits again and again people will adjust.


Besides, newbie outfits aren't the only way to recognise newbies.  

* The guys wandering round and round, room to room in the Sanctuary are probably newbies, and not just new characters but players who are fairly new to the game.

* The people using "say" to talk to all the NPCs sitting around in taverns and wandering the streets.

* Unthematic errors with grammer and puncutation.

* Quit by dropping link while standing in a public place.

* et cetra


I don't think changing newbie clothes would do any good.  But I don't want to be a Negative Nelly, so what might help?



Ok, the problem is people deliberately targeting newbies because they are newbies.  

How about making it harder to steal their newbie money by moving the spawn points closer to the shops?  

Spawning in the Sactuary is a bummer.  It is all fancy and stuff, and it is hard to get out of, so you are left wandering room to room feeling like a jackass.  Maybe the Firestorm tavern would be a better spot?  It is easy to get out, and right in the merchant quarter close to most of the shops and the stables.

Allanak is tougher, the closest tavern to the bazaar is the Trader's Inn, and that isn't a great place for newbies to spawn.  Ok, sure, dirty thieving elves won't sit in there waiting for newbies, but there would be other problems.  :twisted:  Maybe the stables or the bank?  Having newbies spawn in the banks (in towns that have banks) might encourage them to put some of that newbie cash in the bank.



It also wouldn't hurt to put a line in the helpfiles for the steal skill and the theify classes saying that it is considered bad form to deliberately target newbies for their newbie cash.


A nosteal flag for the first two hours would be ok too, I guess.  But instead of causing a normal failure and crimflagging, I'd recomend something less damaging for the would-be theif.  It would suck for a master-theif to get unveiled because he attempted to steal from someone inside the nosteal limit.



AC