Killing outside gates

[elvenchipmunk]

Okay, I don't know what any of you other guys think about this, but I just -hate- it when you're hurt from a gizhat, or bahamet or whatever, and you sit down to rest. Then, the next guy that comes along is some guy who's just playing armageddon for maybe a little while (noob) and they just attack you because they want your things. I'd just like to say that some thing should be done about this because it really isn't incharacter for someone to say they want to be friends, hunt with you, you're friends now, then when you ask them to guard you while you rest and they try to kill you. I know it's IC for some people to do this, but it can't be in character for the number of people that do it.

Thanks
Comments, put them here.

[crymerci]

I'd just like to say that some thing should be done about this because it really isn't incharacter for someone to say they want to be friends, hunt with you, you're friends now, then when you ask them to guard you while you rest and they try to kill you. I know it's IC for some people to do this, but it can't be in character for the number of people that do it.

It's a harsh world, sorry.  Maybe you should think about the IC realism of who you are trusting enough to sleep in front of them?

[jhunter]

Someone pretended to be your friend and then stuck a blade in you when you were hurt??!!

How dare they!!!

:twisted:

[crymerci]

After re-reading that, I know it sounds harsh.  But I'm really being honest here.  I think that people buddy up far too easily to go hunting.  In reality Zalanthans would be very suspicious of anyone who wants to go out into the wastes with them.

Unless they are family or longtime friends, I think you should expect betrayal and murder.

[Larrath]

Yep.

I think it would be cool if they emoted crossing their fingers or their eyes glinting malevolently or whatever, but in all honesty...it serves you right for trusting people!

[elvenchipmunk]

No, but I'm saying is that it's a little weird that someone would go around making friends people, then the first guy they see sleeping outside the gates they try to kill.

I don't know about the guy who just did it, but I know some people do that because they see it as a chance to get money

[Krath]

well...You ARE sleeping outside in the wilderness which is a Horribly idea in itself.  Second,
When you are sleeping it is a great time to attack you for your items because you will
not see it coming. If it is in the characters RP to do so, then I am all for it.

[jhunter]

That seems a perfectly good reason to me if it's IC for the character to do so.

*shrugs*

[elvenchipmunk]

If you read what I said in the first post on this topic, you'd know that I don't care either if it's in the character's RP to do so, but what I'm also saying is that people who don't have that in their RP do it anyways, and it's unrealistic

[jhunter]

Yep, but how do you know it wasn't in their rp to do so?

Because they -told- you so?  :roll:

Do you know their background?

Can you read their mind and see what they are thinking?

Not unless your a mindbender.

I can understand your frustration at being killed, but if your pc was dumb enough to go to sleep outside the gates with someone who may or may not be trustworthy then your pc got what it deserved.

[Larrath]

People who don't have it in their roleplay shouldn't be doing it.

Tell me, though...how can you tell it isn't in their roleplay?  Stabbing someone in the back is hardly all that difficult for a Zalanthan, even if it is a Tuluki wuss.

[elvenchipmunk]

I wasn't killed. And I said I didn't know about the guy who just did it to me, but I do know a lot of other people who have done it.

[elvenchipmunk]

Sorry, who have done it and it wasn't IC for them to do it. I'm just saying it's annoying when some people just do it because they want money, and if it was real life, not a computer game, they really wouldn't do it because the character they've developed is a nice person.

[Mook]

I think the real problem here is the development of characters who are 'nice people.'  What sillies!

[elvenchipmunk]

Okay then. I guess no one here agrees with me. Never mind then

[Ghost]

Average commoner earns around 400 sids a year. So it is difficult to earn.  Now any, non-noble non-templar, seeing a resting and wounded person can jump on the person, and it is all IC.  Now the second part.

It is NOT wise to rest on the sands.  If you are wounded, go rest somwhere SAFE.  Well, I am sure, you can find a safe place, after some search around.

And, I am all for the double crossers.  As long as, they make it in a -nice- way, it adds realism and harshness to Zalanthas.

I hope you bear these in your mind, elvenchipmunk, I know it hurts when it happens to your character, but it is the salt and spice of the game.

[Marc]

Something quick:

If you are gonna double cross someone, try doing it with mercy on!

It'll help create some longer term conflicts, you can still get what you want from them (gear, info whatever), and the whole scene can be rp'ied accordingly.

Don't be so quick to perm kill people.  Sometimes you would make sure icly, but if they are coded mortally wounded, would your char always know/want to stab them again?

[Angela Christine]

You are right, people probably decide to become murderers on the spur of the moment a little to easy.  However, you have no way to know who is really a nice person killing for OOC reasons, and who is an opportunistic bastard that acts nice but would as soon slit your throat as look at you.  Now that you know OOCly that strangers and new friends are untrustworthy, you can use that in the future.


As an aside that hasn't been mentioned yet, if this is happening to you often, perhaps you should re-evaluate your hunting habits.  Not just your hunting companions, but the way you hunt.  If you are fighting to the point that you need to sleep to heal on a regular basis, that isn't hunting but rather some sort of weird masochistic personality disorder.  The point of hunting is not to be critically injured on a regular basis.



AC

[Cenghiz]

It's usual to kill other people when they're weak. It's the realistic RP. It's OK if you know that thrusting a dagger into his throat would give you a free drink in Gaj.
It's unusual to be the friendly, knightly hunter here. Less than %1 of the population should be friendly and trustable in a place where there's no law.
I know there's something like "Do people be mean to you? You're probably right.. It's the nature of Zalanthas... bla bla" in some newbie docs.

*beep*
Welcome to Armageddon.

[Cuusardo]

Survival of the fittest.

[Anonymous]

All I have to say is...

Suck it up, b*tch.

This ain't your daddys world.

[moab]

EC>
I will agree that it sucks to get betrayed and attacked.  I've been in your shoes (and died) a number of times and I've had some characters that have killed others when that player must not have any idea that I was going to kill his character.

Betrayal - it's the name of the game.  

So, on one hand, I totally understand where you are coming from - on the other hand I can imagine a thought process like this:

I'll hunt with this guy, it will be easy to kill things and get some sids.
Oh, this guy is hurt and I can probably kill him and get EVEN MORE coins.
No one is going to miss him and I'm not going to get in trouble.
kill sleeping guy

It's amazing what pcs (and people) are capable of when in the throes of the greed demon.  :-D

[Gar]

Think of this as a very good lesson.

Way back on my first character, before I knew what the heck I was doing, I decided to take a nap outside the city.  I wasn't hurt, just tired from physical activity.  Anyhow, I was robbed and attacked.  It was kind of funny looking back at it.  I ran back to town practically naked, not really knowing what the heck happened.  It's kind of startling to wake up while being stabbed.  I gathered what few sids I had and bought a club.  I think the fekker even stole my pants, I had to find some loincloth or something.  Anyhow I found the guy and beat him with the club and then convinced him to give me most of my stuff back.

Great fun but an even greater lesson.  Don't go around sleeping in the wilds!  When I related my story of woe to several PC's they all said the same thing, it was a dumb move on my part.  They had little pity.

Believe me, you'll never do that again. And that's the key point, take it as a lesson learned.

I've met PC's I could tell were new to the game.  After RP'ing with me for a very short period of time, sometimes they'd get nicked up and without hesitation sleep right in front of me.  That particular PC of mine isn't evil so nothing happened but I can imagine how easy it'd have been.  Personally, I'd have to really really know and trust the fella before nodding off in front of him.

[amoeba]

t's unusual to be the friendly, knightly hunter here. Less than %1 of the population should be friendly and trustable in a place where there's no law.

I'm going to mildly disagree with this viewpoint.  I think it is very one dimensional to view 99% of the populace as backstabbing bastards.  People by nature are social and tend to build alliances.  Two weak hunters can take on things that they couldn't take on seperatly.  Is there a perfectly valid IC reason to be friendly and hunt with others, even those you don't know well?  Absolutly.  Should you trust them? What are you kidding?  

Point here to the original poster is I expect that some people will try to take advantage of me, but I mitigate risks.  I don't hunt with stronger people, unless I am certain that I can trust them not to pull this behaviour. For example, a hunter with a large house will probably not pull this crap.  Or I will hunt with someone that I am certain I can probably defeat or evade.  I never let myself get more tired than that other person, and I keep myself aware of what is going on at all times.  In short if they pull something on me, I am in a stronger position.

Now that being said, I have -gained- alot by being the friendly hunter,  not the least of which was a higher level of enjoyment of the game.  My motivations are longer term.  People are multi-dimensional, sometimes gaining something from a onetime opprotunistic event like killing the poor sap for his pants is counter productive.  Like I say, play the character like you want. You want to hunt in a freindly cooperative manner, by all means.  Just know the risks, and if you miscalculate, well thems the breaks.

[Mr.Camel]

A harsh world makes for harsh people. You'll find tough motherfuckers right and left. But not necessarily backstabbing ones. Sure, there would be a deal of backstabbing and untrustworthiness. But to say that trustworthy people are rare because its a harsh world is somewhat one-dimensional, IMO.

[My 2 sids]

Amoeba is right on in saying,

I think it is very one dimensional to view 99% of the populace as backstabbing bastards.

If the game was set up where no one could trust anyone else and where one's life was in jeopardy every five seconds, no one would even play!  Admit it or not, multi-dimensional games are designed so that players can interact with one another.  This interaction isn't always going to be friendly, but it won't always be terrible either.  It would be the same repetition of over-coming obstacles as every other hack-and-slash game out there; an unrealistic and no-plot-based game to kill off as much as you can before you die.  Once we confuse random killing and harshness, we loose our game.

[Savak]

In general, the action itself isn't a problem in my eyes.  What I think is really driving the frustration is an apparent lack of "build-up" to it.  From a PC point of view you may never actually see this, and it's generally best to just deal with "betrayal" and move on.  From a staff point of view, sometimes I've seen a very hack'n'slash, happy'go'lucky attitude with no leading thinks or indicative background in place to make sense out of either making sudden hunting buddies OR suddenly turning on them.

I have also seen it played very well, although a lot of what I see would be behind the scenes for other players.  So, because it's important I'll repeat -- it's best from a player point of view to assume the best out of other players, otherwise you will become bitter and lonely.  They may not have gone through a bunch of steps which are obvious to you, but that doesn't mean it was inappropriate.

Bottom line is, as has been published elsewhere:  If you think someone was being mean to you, you're probably right.  It's part of the torturous addiction which is Armageddon.

-Savak

[Morrolan]

I think the real problem here is the development of characters who are 'nice people.'  What sillies!

Some of my characters have been nice people.

And if your character doesn't like it, I'll cut his or her throat.

(I didn't say they were one-dimensionally nice people,
after all.)   :twisted:

I think the non-development of characters is a much more serious problem.  In my opinion, there must be some fairly nice people in Zalanthas.  But it is possible to be a nice person without being a naive, foolish person who doesn't watch his or her back with all due caution.

There just aren't social rules requiring not-so-nice people to pretend.  Well, not in the wastes, anyhow.

Morrolan

[deinol]

Some friends of mine believed another person to be a defiler, so we arranged to all go hunting with this guy. We pretended to be nice, until we got a good distance from the city, then we jumped him. Not because we wanted his gear, he didn't have much worth stealing. But because we believed him to be an evil magick user. Not that we had proof, but that's not the way Armageddon works. So no, he didn't see it coming. He also didn't get to see us talking about and planning it behind his back.

So just because you didn't see it coming, perhaps an immortal would have had he been watching.

I play a hunter. I used to be a lone hunter. There is exactly one other character I trusted enough to hunt with before joining a house. Now I only trust members of my house. The wilds are dangerous. People are far more dangerous than that raptor that nearly killed me in my early years. If you want to stay safe, never leave a city. I've had plenty of great characters that had a lot of rp, and were merchants, crafters, artists, poets, etc. If you play the hunter, expect a life of danger.

[Kalden]

Yeah, I consider attacking someone out of blue to be bad RP, unless you're a toughloner/bandit. Eventually you'll have to go back to the city. Being a hunter/bandit doesn't work too great in the long run.

My characters generally have some sort of reason:

1) D-elf attacks intruders.
2) Tulukian attacks 'nakki hunters, or vice-versa.
3) There's no chance for the target to get away(if my PC is cold-blooded).
4) Know the target from before and REALLY don't like him.

I'm pretty sure banditry is illegal. If the person attacks you out of the blue, the next time you see him in the city, you could get him/her in trouble.

[fearwig]

If someone kills you for your money, that -is- IC. Even if they don't go around roleplaying in a similar vein, they've committed that IC action. There's no reason to call shenannigans on them for doing something sneaky--you've no way to know they don't do this sort of thing all the time, as a part of their character. And even if they don't, well... who's to say the honorable fellow doesn't have a dark secret?

[naatok]

I would NEVER kill anyone in Zalanthas.

Unless they pissed me off!  :twisted:

(Or..unless my pc thought he could get away with it!)

The naughty chimpanzee throws his head back and cackles with insane glee.

[Delirium]

Chimpanzee? I dunno, Naatok - you strike me more as a baboon.

[Bestatte]

More like one of them spider monkeys...always peeing in your bag of popcorn when you walk up to their cage.

[Cenghiz]

Hmm... Question:

D-elves have a lot of advantage against other PC's in PK. But when they should?

1. D-elf is a raider, from a raider tribe..
2. That PC is too close to the d-elf's outpost, looking dangerous.
3. Magicker!!! Must always be killed if you're not from a tribe that accepts magickers.
4. Finding food rotting all around his hunting place with that new halfbreed wandering around.
5. Holy place at stake! Something happened to the holy place. Someone must pay for it. Too angry to find the real victim.

Of course, these are the reasons that come to my mind. I've been killed by a d-elf only once, when it was 100% acceptable. But I'm planning to play a d-elf soon. May people experienced add to the list or remove from the list?

[EvilRoeSlade]

3. Magicker!!! Must always be killed if you're not from a tribe that accepts magickers.

Magickers are treated with fear and distrust (and when the numerical advantage is on your side, death).  At least have the sense to wait until the rest of your tribals are online before you do this.  But how much does your character really know about magickers?  Maybe his elders have told him that he has to do a special ritual to be imbued with the power to slay one.  Maybe he thinks they can only be wounded by a special type of material or weapon.  Maybe he thinks that he needs to find a special trinket and wear it to be protected from the magicker.

4. Finding food rotting all around his hunting place with that new halfbreed wandering around.

Now that a desert has ALL the necessary code with the new watch command, you could at least follow the halfbreed around to see if he's really doing what you suspect him of.  The same goes for number five.

[Cenghiz]

Thanks for the idea about special material and/or trinket.. A trinket to absorb the curse, to use once then keep as a souvenir with the thought of capturing the taunt of the magicker.