Drawing, revisited

[jstorrie]

I read over a few of the threads dealing with a possible 'draw' command, and it seemed like the general consensus was that it would be too easily abusable as a writing replacement.

What if there was a version of the write command that allowed a player (whose character had read/write on their skill list) to append a description of an image?  It wouldn't help those without RW, but it might be a helpful step.  I find with my current character that I often need to draw up plans, designs and sketches, and it would be interesting, I think, if illiterate people could at least look at the pictures and try to infer what it was.

For example, instead of

This is a thick sheet of paper.
There is something written upon it in language x:

you could have

This is a thick sheet of paper.
It seems to have some sort of architectural design upon it describing a large, domed building, with a large plaza or flat area of some type.
It is annotated in language x:

Would that be possible?

Would it be worth the extra work to code it?

[Anonymous]

What's the big difference between the draw command or the scribble command in terms of abuseability?

I'd love to see the draw command in game.  Perhaps as a command only available to players who choose a new 'artistry' subguild.

This works out a lot better than ideas I've seen in the past for 'craft dye canvas into a painting of flowers'.

[moab]

In a mush I once played an artist character and had the freedom to create art objects.

I think that an "artist" skillset could be put into place, could be karma related and could allow characters to create actual objects as art that could then be reviewed by an immortal for approval (yeah, they're not doing anything else, are they) or player (using a karma controlled skill) could be trusted to make appropriate items.
Additionally, the characters account name could be added to the object's flags so that an immortal could easily track who made what object in cases of abuse.

[Dresan]

It  doesn't have to be a skill or a guild or karma related.  A drawing would be an item...so what a player could do is emote drawing something on something...them email the mud and 'submit an item' description of the drawing.... one week later the player has his drawing.

[Gilvar]

In a mush I once played an artist character and had the freedom to create art objects.

The problem is that not all characters are trustworthy, and that even something correctable, I.e. a very wrongly designed art piece even tagged with the author's name for reference by Imms, can do horrible things before its finally caught.

I.e. if an idiot did like... "DIRECTIONS TO THE GOLD MINE OF ASFLJASKFSAF! 10E;5n;30e;" even if it was corrected, people would still have the knowledge out there and someone would likely abuse it. That is why scribble is as limited as it is.

[tortall]

I have to say I would like to see draw command so you can do pictures and such. Yes, you COULD just email the imms and get an item made, but everyone knows that takes ages. I would love to play an artist, but I never have simply because it would take ic years to get my painting approved my the imms.

Note: This is not an imm bash, I know you guys are busy doing important stuff keeping the mud running. :-)


-Tortall, who is hot and sweaty from work.... Maybe she should take a shower.

[jstorrie]

In a mush I once played an artist character and had the freedom to create art objects.

The problem is that not all characters are trustworthy, and that even something correctable, I.e. a very wrongly designed art piece even tagged with the author's name for reference by Imms, can do horrible things before its finally caught.

This is why I'm suggesting letting characters with an appropriate RW skill do it, since generally the only way to have a literate character is to be in a trusted role.

[moab]

...or you could request the "artist" skill and have a sponser immortal peek in on you from time time and would receive the updates on the items you create.

Personally, if I had the freedom to create works of art to sell to nobles and other mighty dudes, there would be a damn museum out there.  :-D

I just hate pestering immortals with "can you create this obj, can you create that obj."  I feel like I'm bothering them with my multi-colored vase when they could be building a plot or something. I dunno.

[UnderSeven]

Another thing I'd like to toss out.  Good artists have to practice and it takes time.  Right now you'd have to really limit yourself to works you did because you'd have to request it from the staff.  If we had a draw command I fear we might just see far to many artsy chars out there with these 'masterfully drawn pictures.'  And while playesr might gravitate toward the better described ones, the true artist skill wouldn't have anything to do in the char's skill, but instead be wholly related to the writing skill of the player.  I just don't feel it would work out quite right.

[spawnloser]

<7, well, we should have players lyrics and emotes for performing as a bard reviewed by staff before use too, if we follow your logic for artwork.

I mean, I'm just playing devil's advocate here...true, I understand reasons why it should go through the IMMs.  At the same time, they can trust people to be a singer/poet/dancer and emote realistically, so why can't they trust people to make artwork realistically?

[Mr.Camel]

An emote is something instantaneous. That is, you press enter, I read it and then its only there as long as my scrollback keeps it. An object, however, is something that will continue to exist in the world, which has a desc that can be invoked whenever anyone looks at it. So, given an abuse in both cases, I'd rather endure the emote, much much more.
Another thing, a player sees the emoter, while I can't tell who made an object from examining it. While this probably wouldn't make much of difference as far as reporting, as you can as easily use the Typo command as you can e-mail about abuse from emotes, it does give the abuser a sense of security, I would guess. And as Gilvar put it, an object with an inappropriate description is harder to spot, as it can pass through several players before being reported. Also, anything I can tell you with an emote, I can use any other communication channel, while objects -might- provide means for getting abused into RW.

[spawnloser]

I would hope that any responsible player, finding a twinked art object with directions or other secret information that is not realistic, would junk one of these items, meaning it is no longer a permanent thing.  You don't need to typo or bug or wish up.  You just type 'junk stupidtwinkypainting' and that is the end of it.

I mean, I understand the rest, yes.  I understand.  Like I said, I was playing devil's advocate.  Still, every performer I've seen since starting was good from the start.  They have spent their whole life doing this, just like that hunter has spent his whole life doing his job...but the hunter sucks because he's a newbie, and the bard can perform whatever they want with as much skill as they feel like?  I'd say that is very unrealistic, but it is the reality.

[moab]

I think it's fine that people play masterful bards, dancers, or artists.  Because theses skills aren't based on game code, the really involve the players ability to creatively write.  It's a truer representation of the player than a character that is more based in the hardcode of the game - magicker or ranger for example.  

It's one thing to be code-wise bad with a sword.  It's quite another to hold your own creative ability or enjoyment of the language to produce a badly-fired lump of clay rather than something you would really like to write.

Further, some artist might make a reclining dwarf nude statue and then die only to have his object circulated through the game for the next RL three years.  Because the player took the time to write a cool object, (rather than spend his time making "lumps of badly fired clay" there has been a positive influence in the game - that other players have enjoyed the statue.

Art is good.  Good art is better.  :-)

[Carnage]

I.e. if an idiot did like... "DIRECTIONS TO THE GOLD MINE OF ASFLJASKFSAF! 10E;5n;30e;" even if it was corrected, people would still have the knowledge out there and someone would likely abuse it. That is why scribble is as limited as it is.

If that same person wanted everyone to know, they could also just post a message to the in game boards, tell everyone over AIM/IRC, and so forth. All you're doing is trying to block a poorly theorized avenue of 'IC information' and hurting flexibility of the game.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Carnage, if people want to ruin things they will find a better way to do it than abusing the draw command.  Especially because I'd bet there is an easy way to flag who drew on the object and trace it back to that account.

[spawnloser]

Me too, which has been my point.  One sort of flexibility has been allowed, as the IMMs apparently think the players can be trusted enough...why not another?

Still, CRW, people's skills with displaying their creativity do come down to skills.  Playing an instrument, for example...but anyone can pick one up and play it like a master provided that the player is good at emoting?

I'm so afraid that that would be the case for drawing/painting too.

[wizturbo]

Here is a solution:

You could make it a skill everyone starts out with, but to a limited degree unless it is practiced.

How to limit it?  Depending on how high your skill in 'draw' is, will determine how many characters are available for your use in the description.  If your draw skill is really poor, you might be limited to 25 characters.  

For example:

Drawn on the paper is:  the image of a giant fist

Not really enough space to put a great deal of information out.  

If your skill is higher however (which would allow immortals time to spot a twink before they get the skill needed) you might have a great deal more characters available for the drawing, which you can use to elaborate the fine details.

For those who need more characters but don't have the skill, they could always email the mud and hope an imm is kind enough to make the item for them.

[Anonymous]

I'm so afraid that that would be the case for drawing/painting too.

I imagine people's drawings would come out about as good or as bad as their main descriptions.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am very much in support of the drawing skill.

[Tlaloc]

I've actually proposed a few ways for a Drawing skill to be implimented. However, the issue is code: right now the code doesn't exactly support it. The issue isn't that much of an issue of 'trust' with the playerbase, really. Thats only half the problem.

The issue is more that its difficult to get drawings you make on the fly to actually stick around in-game through crashes/reboots. (Yes, books, notes, letters, and such seem to work just fine...but things are never that simple). Furthermore, how do you realistically account for skill level? If left untouched, its -possible- that someone could have a 1% in the drawing skill, yet paint artful masterpieces, which inspire millions. Realistically, that shouldn't happen. You should have to go through the stick-figure phase like everyone else, before you can inspire millions. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt...but I do pause when I see many examples of flawless beauties in mere PC descriptions...why wouldn't it carry over to painting?

The good news is, this is something that both Sanvean and I would really like to see in the game, and its on the long list of Things To Get Done. The proposal I sent in a while ago I think successfully deals with the issues of 'trust', as well as 'code' (provided some coding work gets done), and fits in relatively well with the current crafting scheme. Furthermore, its possible that the idea might not just stop at 'drawing' and 'painting', but also with things like sculpture, and carving.

Unfortunately, I'm sure theres a ton of other things higher on the List...so who knows when someone will get around to this. Could be tomorrow...might be next week, could be three years from now.

Keep the ideas comming, and keep the faith.

[spawnloser]

You are my new hero, Tlaloc.