Two complaints

[Armaddict]

Alright, two complaints.  And you can probably guess how I died most recently  :lol:

1.  Incriminate - Can someone explain to me why you have to define an argument, otherwise it's infinite?  I mean...an -infinite- crimflag because you were in the same place as a templar for two seconds and he pointed at you?   Anyone else think that's a little...eh...-overdone-?  *snicker*

2.  This is a little different, could just be a coding thing.  Is there a particular reason why single soldiers get -four- attacks if they fail a subdue?  I mean...if a PC fails subdue, they don't get four attacks.  Hell, if an unarmed person tries to subdue an armed person, -they- don't get four attacks.  When all four are hitting consistently because you -didn't- powergame a character...that's lame.  Heh.

Anyone who can justify these to me, so that I can stop sniffling about mean people over here?  *sniff*

[PonchosAreGoodPonchosCanB]

1. Infinite crimflags are seldom ever set by PC templars because as I understand it, the immortals watch over that sort of thing and if an infinite crimflag IS set, they'll want justification as to why as this implies your character will be in jail forever if caught and/or cannot leave some shadowy area or non-accessible to NPC area for the rest of his life. Which can understandably piss people off. Why you may think you have an infinite crimflag - maybe it was a very high value and you didn't wait long enough. Or maybe it was an infinite crimflag because there was good justification - i.e. the Templar believed you had done something capital and wanted to interrogate you. Otherwise, the Templar would likely have just had you killed on sight instead of making a crimflag.

2. Attacks after failed subdue. While I haven't had a lot of experience with attacks by NPC soldiers or PC soldiers, I have noticed that sometimes, a person will get double the number of attacks he normally would while at others, he doesn't. The thought that comes to mind is that there must be some sort of dexterity roll that checks to see if the attacker surprised the victim and if so, then the fellow gets double the attacks to take into consideration the target having been surprised then actually turning to confront (as in a regular engagement). So you may have just had the brunt end of bad luck. Bearing in mind of course I don't know if this is true, merely speculation.

[UnderSeven]

2. Attacks after failed subdue. While I haven't had a lot of experience with attacks by NPC soldiers or PC soldiers, I have noticed that sometimes, a person will get double the number of attacks he normally would while at others, he doesn't. The thought that comes to mind is that there must be some sort of dexterity roll that checks to see if the attacker surprised the victim and if so, then the fellow gets double the attacks to take into consideration the target having been surprised then actually turning to confront (as in a regular engagement). So you may have just had the brunt end of bad luck. Bearing in mind of course I don't know if this is true, merely speculation.

Wrong.

This is a known bug with the game.  NPCS don't get delay. That is the problem right there.  This bug has caused the unfair deaths of many pcs.  Since npc delay isn't likely to be seen, because diku code doesn't support it, the best we can hope for is the staff doing something else to make the npcs soldiers less pc killing.

Having personally lost a pc this way, it bothers me immensely that the staff didn't imidiately do something when this problem was first brought up, such as give the npc soldiers clubs so they would knock you out before killing you.  The fact is, this causes deaths and many of them and it's for no better reason than the ooc reason that the code doesn't better support npcs.

[Linedel]

This is not based on Armageddon's code, simply the previous poster's assertions that this is due to an old Diku throwback:

a) I don't think you can blame NPCs not taking delays - they handle move delays similar to PCs, and casting predelays, etc...  (This is trivial anyways, you move 1 line from the descriptor loop to the character loop, and remove a couple of PC/NPC checks.)

b) It's more likely that said attack spam is due to some quirk of one_hit or set_fighting, and the order which said functions are being called from within the subdue fail check, similar to how "do_kill" would occasionally give 2 rounds in old Diku.  Finding the exact cause may not be trivial, depending on how convoluted combat code is (and with Diku combat rounds removed, it could be nasty)

[Carnage]

I've noticed that certain NPCs have delay and lag. Some have movement delay before they attack, for example. Others just seem to completely ignore it.

[Armaddict]

Well, the lack of delay wouldn't be so bad if they weren't getting -4- attacks -every- time it happened.

And I know it's happening -every- time.  Not just one freak occurrence.  EVERY time.

[Carnage]

Well, the lack of delay wouldn't be so bad if they weren't getting -4- attacks -every- time it happened.

And I know it's happening -every- time.  Not just one freak occurrence.  EVERY time.

It varies from NPC to NPC. I'm not going to point out some, but certain wildlife suffer the same delays people do, while other NPCs are pretty hardcore.

By the way, I think I'll throw in the obligatory, "YOU DON'T PAY FOR THIS GAME YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN THE STAFF WORKS HARD!" before someone else does.

[Gilvar]

It is a bug, well established. NPCs don't suffer combat delay in most of the instances. You may have seen logs here of people who have fought gith that disarm, fail, and kick, or bash, or flee or something all in one round. Similar for the super-soldiers who sheath their weapons, attempt a subdue, fail, draw their weapons, and attack, all in one round.

I think its a hard one to fix (thus why it still exists), but the code-savvy are aware.

[Armaddict]

No, I understand the combat delay.

I mean the 4 attacks in -rapid- succession.

As in, they type 'kill so and so' and get 4 attacks, immediately after subduing.

And for the incriminate, it's just my personal opinion that only immortals should be able to place an infinite one.  That way, you commit a crime that people -will remember- for ages, and you'll be that way.  I seriously don't think that because you were in the same room as a templar for two seconds, and he pointed his finger at you, that you're going to be hunted down by every soldier in the city for the rest of your life.

At the least, it should be a shorter timer for default, and if an infinite timer is warranted, they can type in 'incriminate so and so forever' or whatnot.

[adgohan]

Consider the following.

Each city has roughly 500,000 people within it. Militia numbers vary for each city, argueably, almost all of the city is available to fight if necessary at some time. A small population of this is Captains / Templars of the militia.

I have never considered, in either city, incriminate (permanent) to be realistic, unless you are public enemy #1. While it seems likely that guards would look for you, likely arrest anyone that may match your general description, considering the amount of robust human hunters, or lanky elves, then the amount of times the guard changes (or a mekillot blasts in, kills everyone, the templar who originally incriminated dies..whatever) remembering one face for the rest of eternity just doesn't make sense.

The flip side of the coin is that immortals will probably cater to this if your character actually survives. If you are perma-crimmed in a city, you are likely being hunted. If you survive that and somehow fade away from the public eye for 10-15 years, it's reasonable to mail the MUD and at least request that deeds be forgotten. By this time it is also reasonable that PCs have moved on to other things and probably forgot about you. (Unless you start causing trouble again)

This is all considering you're pretty much an enemy of the entire city, that everyone knows you to be extremely dangerous, and that you should be killed on sight for comitting horrible crimes (sorcery or worse). The problem I see perma-crim in is situations where a thief steals something and gets away, or one person kills someone and gets away, and they are forever incriminated in that city. It is not worth it, out of 500,000, to count one murder as notifying all militia on active duty to remember to look out for (x) person. Economics refers to this as "cost-versus-benefit principle." If that were so, the militia would be boggled down with looking for thousands of criminals and forget names anyway.

Just a thought.

[spawnloser]

This is all very true...but also keep in mind that adgohan's number of 15 years IG is two years real time for those keeping track.

[Armaddict]

You're saying...that you want people...to be -actively- searched for....for 2 RL years.

That's fucking insane.

[Forest Junkie]

You're saying...that you want people...to be -actively- searched for....for 2 RL years.

That's fucking insane.

He was giving an example, an estimate of what he would consider a fair amount of time. adgohan seems to be agreeing with your complaints Armaddict; I know I for one am.

[Armaddict]

Oh.  Sorry.

I must have just read it the wrong way.

Apologies, Spawn.

[adgohan]

Exactly, Forest.

My point was that time is reasonable for the absolute most insane criminals, I am talking people who killed hundreds of NPCs, VNPCs, several Templars, serial killers, etc. These are people that the militia would remember in their minds, they would be able to relate it to an incident.

The problem lies where perma-incrimination is happening because someone kills another person, or a thief steals a bag, and because they get away, they are perma-crim'd. These people don't usually get away, but when they do, they're screwed.

The main misinterpretation was that I expect perma-crim to last for two years. Exactly the opposite, I think perma-crim should not apply to most criminals at all, rather should either follow the current code in place or a slightly longer code addition (a week, two weeks RL but no more)

[Vettrock]

I would agree that perma-criminal should be rare.  I think one solution should be that incriminate without a number should incriminate you for X amount of time.  and If they wanted to do a perma-incriminate they need to specifiy incriminate indef or incriminate 999 or something like that.


I've never played a templar, but at the spur of the moment when you are incriminating someone it, I'm not sure I would pause and say "OK what timeframe would be reasonable here." and by that time the thief is gone.

Just a thought.

[crymerci]

If I ever play a templar, I won't hesitate to incriminate someone indefinitely.  That is the only way to make sure that the criminal would be held until you could question them.  Then there's always the "pardon" command.

However, I wouldn't use this tactic for, say, suspected theft.  It would be more appropriate for things like murdering a noble, treason, etc.

[Vettrock]

But that is just the problem.  The templar wants to incrimate them indefinately so that they don't get away(codewise).  Your using the code to create an unrealistic situation.  Two or three years later I don't see how people would not have forgotten at least to some extent.  Since its not possible for some of the soliders to remember and some not, There should be an inherrant time limit rather than if you piss off a PC templar you're wanted forever, piss off an NPC templar, and your not.

[Armaddict]

Yes, exactly.

Crymerci, why is it that if someone is in the same room as a templar for 2 seconds, they can potentially be crimflagged for an -indefinite- amount of time at the templar's will, whether they did anything or not?

Because a templar pointed at them and said 'I want them arrested', you are remembered as the heinous criminal for the rest of your lifetime?  What kind of sense does that make.

I still say that -immortals- should give out indefinite crimflags, when it's really warranted, such as after a public assassination and the like, some sort of situation where everyone really -is- remembering you.

Otherwise, people should forget about you sometime or another.  You can -kill- someone in the street and be forgotten within a couple IC days.

[blacksheep]

I'm semi-new to Armageddon and I've found it a really enjoyable experience over all. Here are my thoughts:

Maybe being perma-crimed should be something that a PC templar should have to wish up for. An immortal could assess the situation and see if it's appropriate to flag the person. A perma-crime status shouldn't happen very often, so the immortals wouldn't be swamped with requests of this nature.

The other issue that was brought up, which I think we've strayed from a bit, is something that I believe to be really significant. It bothers me that a character that's had so much time invested into it can be so swiftly and unreallistically killed by a bug, especially one that is so prominent. The soldier's of the city already have great strength and mass numbers, it doesn't seem right that they should be able to do so many things in one combat turn. I don't really know much about how the mud is coded, so I don't know how the staff could go about fixing it, but I really hope that this is something that's being looked into.

[crymerci]

I would like to hope that whoever the staff choose to play templars have good enough judgment to use the commands at their discretion wisely.

Basically I figure that for any truly heinous crimes, there's probably wanted posters posted in the militia barracks or somesuch depicting "Allanak's Most Wanted".  Or maybe the two city-states have a network of mindbender slaves searching for guilty thoughts amongst all those who approach the city.  Or maybe not.  If you know you're incriminated (and you couldn't have left the city in the first place without figuring it out) then after a reasonable amount of IC time has passed you could email the MUD and ask for the flag to be taken off.

Crymerci, why is it that if someone is in the same room as a templar for 2 seconds, they can potentially be crimflagged for an -indefinite- amount of time at the templar's will, whether they did anything or not?

Because a templar pointed at them and said 'I want them arrested', you are remembered as the heinous criminal for the rest of your lifetime? What kind of sense does that make.

This templar command allows your templar character to accuse the named person of committing a generic crime against your city-state. The crime can be whatever you might wish to invent, and it does not matter whether there is evidence or not.

That is just the kind of power that templars have.  It's not like your local police department that has to explain their actions.  Templars are absolute law.

[Quirk]

That is just the kind of power that templars have.  It's not like your local police department that has to explain their actions.  Templars are absolute law.

Well, yes, but they tend to issue demands for people's arrest quite often. I don't see the average soldier watching the crowded streets being able to remember everyone the templarate have decided was a criminal in the last ten years. I don't see them even being able to remember everyone in the past year. Situations change quite quickly, and the Most Wanted Wagon Arsonist of last month is a distant memory when there's a real live defiler on the loose torching city blocks.

So, I don't think PC templars should use permanent crim-flags save in the most serious of situations.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

When I was playing a templar I found the incriminate command a very cumbersome one, since you had to designate the amount of time that your target is going to be in jail for.

I often found myself incriminating people permanently just so I could make sure they were wanted before they left the room, never to be seen again.

Often times even that wasn't enough, which is why I think there should be a way for a templar to incriminate somebody who is in a different room.

[blacksheep]

I would like to hope that whoever the staff choose to play templars have good enough judgment to use the commands at their discretion wisely.

Sometimes there are players who will abuse the trust they are given. They may have some how gotten a few good comments from the staff at some point, but won't hesitate later on to make up a weak IC reason to do something they know they shouldn't be doing; even though I'm fairly new to the game, I've already seen a situation like this. It's not so much that they're bad players, it's just hard to not use power when you have alot of it.

[Armaddict]

The idea isn't that they have the power.

That's not debateable, they -have- the power.

The problem comes when everyone they want, is wanted for the rest of their -life- based on a templar's 2 second finger-point session.

You can -attack- a templar and not be wanted that badly.

The situation is unrealistic.  The situation is not good for playability.  It's just outdated.  Incriminate needs to have a lower duration.

As was said above...permanent crimflags are often used just so you can get them wanted before they leave the room.  Is that gesture from a templar and his word that he wants a person -really- going to take that kind of precedent over all other crimes being committed?  Is every soldier going to take it -that- seriously, when the person they're seeking, they really don't even know if they've done anything?

All they know, is a templar wanted the PC.  And that gains priority over the ones who commit far greater crimes, and simply have to wait a week or two IC'ly, at most, before they are no longer -actively- wanted.

[Bestatte]

Indefinite incrim doesn't really make that much sense unless the crime committed was like - really big. Being caught as a defiler casting defiling spells somewhere (anywhere I guess would justify that kind of incrim). Being found out (and confirmed) as a mindbender. Being found out (and confirmed) as a northern spy for the northern templarate.

For stuff like that, I'd hope to be hunted and tracked down to the end of the known world for the rest of my miserable life.

Anything else? Meh. Most other offenses I can think of are minor, affect only the victim or the templar himself. And so now I'm wanted indefinitely for -failing- to pick Lord Borsail's pockets - and then Lord Borsail gets whacked by Lady Oash, and Templar Incriminator's player retires the character.

In such a cut-throat world, why SHOULD anyone give a shit if I failed to pick Lord Borsail's pockets a game-year before he died? I'm a nobody. I don't matter, I'm not worth the effort. Let it go, find someone whose crimes warrant a city-wide endless search and leave the kank-fleas to the kanks.

I'd say perhaps incrim should come with "ranks" of crimes, with each rank requiring a certain crime to be committed to justify the incrim. No more of this "Crimes against the state" stuff - it's way too vague, though no problem if you want to just RP that out.

incrim 1: petty theft, attempted petty theft, attempted harm of any sort to any unclanned commoner, outsider, or rinth-rat. Gets a good hour or so's worth of crimflag.

incrim 2: same as above, but applied to slaves, any clanned commoner of low-rank within their clan. 2-3 game-hours of crimflag.

incrim 3: same as above - applied to high-ranking commoners of any clan including house merchants, plus murder or any other causing death to any unclanned commoner, outsider, or rinth rat. 1 game-day of crimflag.

And so on and so forth, til you get incrim 10 - confirmed defiler, confirmed murder of Red-robed templar, confirmed mindbender, confirmed northern spy for northern templar, confirmed murder of Senior noble of house.

Most criminals, when caught will certainly need to think twice about what they're doing - even a 10-minute "time out" to hide can be troublesome for a petty theft who fails an attempt. Most crimes are petty enough that they just plain aren't worth a long-term incrim. Why SHOULD the entire city's militia be looking out forever for a guy who steals 20 sids from a 15-year-old PC ragamuffin? It makes no sense at all.

[crymerci]

However, I wouldn't use this tactic for, say, suspected theft.  It would be more appropriate for things like murdering a noble, treason, etc.

truly heinous crimes

[blacksheep]

The stout, bald-headed soldier has arrived from the east.
The stout, bald-headed soldier sheathes an obsidian longsword.
The stout, bald-headed soldier sheathes an obsidian shortsword.
The stout, bald-headed soldier attempts to grab you, but you wrestle away.
The stout, bald-headed soldier shouts, in sirihish:
    "Templars! A criminal!"
The stout, bald-headed soldier draws an obsidian longsword.
The stout, bald-headed soldier draws an obsidian shortsword.
The stout, bald-headed soldier slashes you very hard on your body.
The stout, bald-headed soldier solidly pierces your body.
The stout, bald-headed soldier slashes your body, nicking you.
The stout, bald-headed soldier lightly pierces your body.
The stout, bald-headed soldier parries your attack.
The stout, bald-headed soldier swiftly dodges your stab.

All in one turn, and less than a second. I know time passes faster on in Armageddon, but this is a bit rediculous.

[Armaddict]

That's the four attacks I meant.

It's every failed subdue, not a random code roll or anything.

Why don't players get that?

[sacac]

Ah.. that brings me back to the day I was killed because I stole 2 'sid.
But I agree, they should have "incrim blah" set to "incrim blah 2" instead of infinite if you put "incrim blah"