Hunters.... Hunters....

[Ghost]

This is somewhat related with the thread about overhunting ....

I think the skin, should have a time delay, like 4-5 minutes RL, just like craft.  Like;

>skin body
You begin to skin the body of an insect like scrab.
...
...

And during the delay you can put down all your emotes.  If you try to attempt something else that needs concentration, you get "You lost your concentration..." message.  
This is going to be helpful in two ways.

1) It will add realism.  You can not skin a giant bug in the blink of an eye.

2) It will reduce the problem with overhunting.  With the current code, you can hunt down and skin 20 scrab/beetle/raptor/tandu etc... But after you put a skin delay of 4-5 minutes, you wont be able to make so much hunt/skin spam at all.  
Also while you are skinning, there will be a possibility something comes in and disturbs your skinning.  An aggro beast, or gith may come in and jump at you while you are trying to take out that thick shell.

Now there might be a problem:  Say what happens when you begin to skin something, and another PC comes and try to skin it too.  There might be two solutions for this also:

1) The second PC also begins to skin it, and the result of skinning the body will be the combined effort of both.  I dont know if coding such is possible at all.

2)  If it is too hard to code the first one, then the second PC gets a message like "You cannot skin soandso body, somebody else is skinning it" or something like that.

A few words about overhunting...
Overhunting was not something that I would give more than a shrug, but recently it began to turn into a pretty annoying issue.  You can wander on your kank, in supposedly beetle crowded area and see no beetle for a week IRL.  And there were about 15-20 rooms, that have meats, heads, legs, organs and antennae of scrab scattered on the ground.  Some of these rooms are just next to each other.  Seems like a hunter had a great time in the wild.  So it would be neat to have a coded support to reduce it.

[moab]

Addressing several issues of the overhunting thread in both forums -
1. The hunter could choose to junk rather than drop unused items.

2. There are plently of RL examples of overhunting and wasting animal parts - I don't see it as a real problem in the game.  What is wrong with the trophy hunter out for only scrab shells and nothing more?

3. What about non-hunting scavangers? Maybe they like find stuff out in the wastes?  I think maybe.  

4. If a hunter doesn't have a need or drive to hunt he shouldn't be out hunting, right?  Now, if he is a sport hunter, why shouldn't he be able to kill 20 scrabs between reboots if he likes?

5. Maybe more enviro-friendly pcs should start policing those less inclined to be aware of the impact?  I think that makes for some RP ideas there.

[Delirium]

4. If a hunter doesn't have a need or drive to hunt he shouldn't be out hunting, right?  Now, if he is a sport hunter, why shouldn't he be able to kill 20 scrabs between reboots if he likes?

It's more the simple fact that a 'trophy' or 'sport' hunter seems very atypical of the Zalanthan environment, yet it seems to be very prevalent among some PCs, hurting those who try to play realistically.

[Pungee]

Speaking as a hunter, this comes down to a playability issue. A lot of times when you're hunting it attracts attention. Either from Staff or from other NPCs who happen to be looking around for an easy target. If you have to spend 5 RL minutes waiting to skin an animal, realistic as it may be, you're a sitting duck. Something comes and attacks and then you have to either A) Start over or B) Since your concentration faltered you spoiled the animals meat and hide.

I also think that if we ever extended the time on skinning to something like that we'd need to be able to get more from the creature. Bones, several pieces of meat (maybe four or five), hides, claws, teeth. All from one skin to pay back the danger of how long it takes.

[crymerci]

I like the delay idea.  Maybe 1 or 2 minutes, instead of five?  Or variable depending on the difficulty of the job, i.e. a mek might take 5 minutes, but a tregil only 1.

[moab]

Delirium>
In that case, it seems like an RP issue and not a code issue, doesn't it?

[Ghost]

The idea is to put a delay to skin, and yes 4-5 minutes was just an arbitrary number that came to my mind.  It may take less then that.

About playability;  There is nothing wrong with it.  Think about craft.  It has a delay, and during the process if you try something else, you get a message like "You lost your concentration..." and you stop crafting.  It can be exactly like that.  If you are skinning and you draw the attention of a nearby aggro beast, you can stop skinning, fight the beast and rebegin skinning.  It wont be a big problem I guess.

About sport hunting:  It is alright.  As long as it is not a 20 kill in straight.  Because your hunter is not a machine, he needs to rest a little

[Pungee]

Crafting usually happens in a nice safe place. Skinning usually happens about three rooms from a Bahamut or a whole mess of gith.

[Ghost]

Crafting usually happens in a nice safe place. Skinning usually happens about three rooms from a Bahamut or a whole mess of gith.

I think it is still not a big problem with playability.

>skin mekillot
You begin to skin the body of an ugly mekillot

...
> A gigantic rudy brown mekillot has arrived from west
>Think Shit!

You think "Shit!"

>remove knife
Your concentration falters...
You stop using a slender bone skinning knife

> draw sword
You draw a bone longsword

>You deftly parry a....
...
...

And after the fight, if you are still alive, and well, you rebegin to skin.

[Pungee]

When you have a skinning knife in your hand you're really rather defenseless. Depending on what comes along, you could be very dead simply because you chose that moment to skin a creature. I think thats slightly unfair playability wise given the current rewards of skinning. If you could harvest more from the animal, I'd have less of a problem with the long time delay.

EDIT: It would be worth dragging the thing back to camp at that point or setting up a perimeter with other members of your hunting party so someone can skin safely then.

[jhunter]

I don't see a problem with this, so long as the delay isn't quite as long as some are suggesting -and- you do get more out of them...as it is you don't realistically get enough meat from alot of animals.

If you are going to balance out one part of it, both need to be taken care of, IMO.

I think though...that if the delay is too long, it will cause there to be more things left behing and wasted...your skinning things and something you cannot take care of comes in and attacks...then you have to flee and leave it behind to spoil..and go try again somewhere else.

I don't really think this will solve the problem, I do think it needs to be done ICly.

Dammit people, if one person/group of people are overhunting your territory, stop being pussies and DO something about it!

If some fucker was killing off all the game I need to feed my family...that fucker is going to die or get ran off one way or another. I certainly wouldn't let my family starve because some bastard trophy hunter or whatever is taking the food from their mouths.

[JollyGreenGiant]

EDIT: It would be worth dragging the thing back to camp at that point or setting up a perimeter with other members of your hunting party so someone can skin safely then.

I think a delay on skinning would be a very good idea, with the delay depending the size of the critter being skinned.  And I quoted Pungee because he's right.  How many deer hunters skin, gut, and dress a kill on the spot?  How about bears?  And those are soft, fleshy animals.  A scrab is what, man-sized or so, but made of chitin.  Couple that with non-mettalic tools...  It should take some effort to skin that sucker!  Having to cart it off to someplace safe where you've got the time to clean it up makes a lot of sense to me...

[grog]

I agree with doing something IC about it.  But one of the problems may be that those who are over hunting may be on a different time then you.   So, if you want to catch them at it, you have to hook up the expresso drip and start doing marathon Armageddon sessions.  

After awhile you start forgetting to eat outside of the game, and start calling anybody who comes into your yard a poacher.  (The police take away your bow and arrow after the first time you shoot yourself in the foot)   Your kids start wearing tribal warpaint to school, because it's cheaper then clothes, and they need to recognize their roots.  You end up in a padded cell, though whenever they take away your computer you start going into violent convulsions until it's returned.  

Grog
(sure, I know everybody goes through this stage once or twice)

[spawnloser]

Crafting usually happens in a nice safe place. Skinning usually happens about three rooms from a Bahamut or a whole mess of gith.

Well, maybe you should do what any smart person does in real life?  Pick up the kill and bring it somewhere safe before skinning it.

Yes, I am in support of a delay.

[crymerci]

Crafting usually happens in a nice safe place. Skinning usually happens about three rooms from a Bahamut or a whole mess of gith.

Crafting materials also cost money, whereas skinning is free.

[SpyGuy]

Variable times are preferable, makes sense a tregil would be easier to skin than a scrab.

But pick up the bodies and move to a safe place?  Genius!

[Maybe42or54]

-blink- That is all I am going to say.. How in krath's holy name are you going to drag a mek -into- a city? or how about a safespot?
A scrab.. alright.. why because we drive tanks called kanks and they can haul a scrab on thier back. even though it is bigger then them with human.
BUT WAIT! why stop at 5 minutes? Five minutes ia half an hour.. no no no.. It should take an IC hour (At the least)! Oh.. Last time i hunted.. it took more then an hour! It should take 4 hours to skin a scrab!
Oh.. but jozhal.. They are small, easier to skin, They have soft delicate skin that we can't pry off like a scrab.. no no no..

And I'm only a hunter.. I don't have territory.. I can't scare other hunters that do not know me by shooting arrows at them sporadically.. no no no..
i will not create tension and attack other hunters that are wasting sacks of kankshit, this is armageddon not someplace that I -kill- people. Why am I a hunter if I can't hunt other people that wastes meat and water in a constant battle for life and death? That one piece of meat they wasted? That pile of legs, pile of guts, pile of whatever, Could be used by someone to save thier life.. but these bastards decide that they should leave it where they found it. You know what?! HUNT THEM! Theyw ant to skin? Attack the bastards right after you watched them kill something.

As I said -blink- I am not in favor of crafting time for a non-crafting skill. (Argue with me.. go ahead!)

[SykotikGith]

Personally I think it should take some (not sure how much) time to skin a kill. And I am all for the variable idea. Some critters should be far easier to skin than others.

Yes, I know...some of you think it would be adding *too* much realism to the game. Yes, this is a fantasy world. Yes, time in game doesn't match RL time. No, I do not think it needs to. However, I do believe that overhunting is an issue. I do not think it is very realistic that a handful of PC's should be able to wipe out entire NPC populations of creatures in a matter of days. Yes, there is a virtual creature population, but they don't do very well at filling the bellies of the tribes that survive off of said creatures.

This brings me to another point. And again, this could be considered by many to be a realism vs. playability issue. When someone goes out hunting...is it likely, unless their intended game is small, that they should be able to bring down a Mek or a 'Met? Yes, I know, badass rangers and warriors can do it...but the question is *should* they? Think about the world our characters live in? Is it realistic for someone to go out and take on a vicious creature that is several times their size all by themselves? Yes, I know, there are players out there with the "I'm going to singlehandedly bring down the largest Mek in the Known World" complex...but those should be the exception, not the rule. Now, working on the idea that for certain types of hunting, you should have to have a group with you. Doesn't it become more reasonable to then have to either drag the kill back to your camp, which most hunters (RL and in-game) would logically do; or set up a small perimeter and do your field dressing right there. This brings us back to the delay idea. Now that you have killed the Mek that is several times your size, why should you be able to skin it in five seconds or less? Now, I am not suggesting 4 -5 minutes...that is a little extreme. But a variable delay, I think this is a reasonable request.

Now...since there has been a request for a delay. Which is, while not a punishment, it is certainly not a reward. I also agree with the people who feel that there should be more given out from skinned creatures. And for me, this is really a realism thing. I find it very jarring when I RP skinning this huge creature, and end up with a hunk or two of meat, and maybe one or two other things. It just doesn't seem right to me. However, this does lead to a problem. For those who have to drag all the stuff back to a city, it might become impossible to sell due to limits on shopkeepers. This would also lead to more things being piled and left in the desert to rot...which again I just don't understand. Just because your PC cannot use it, wouldn't you think of the 'sid you could make off of it? It just doesn't seem right to me...

Anyway, I've dropped far more than my two 'sid into this discussion. I only planned to say something short, and I rambled...This is probably my longest post ever. I hope it made sense, and if any of it sounds snitty or sarcastic, please forgive me...it is after midnight, and my brain is on semi-auto-pilot.

[SpyGuy]

Gith said it right, solo-hunting Meks is odd in the first place and if you do it you should understand that its going to take you a damn long time to skin it.  If your powerful enough to solo it don't whine that you need to skin it for 3-5 minutes of semi-defenselessness.  Same goes for anyone solo hunting anything, I do it myself with some chars but that doesnt mean its the smartest thing in the world to do.

As for extra stuff that gets left behind...perhaps rather than a traditional shop with 5 item limits we can have NPC vendors like the salt and 'sid guys in nak that will take unlimited amounts and give you X amount of sid for your finds.  Have them coupled with shops that would then sell finds for the independent crafters that want to use them.  This solution, however, also encourages overhunting which I'm not a fan of.  Its a trade off.

[Angela Christine]

As for extra stuff that gets left behind...perhaps rather than a traditional shop with 5 item limits we can have NPC vendors like the salt and 'sid guys in nak that will take unlimited amounts and give you X amount of sid for your finds.  Have them coupled with shops that would then sell finds for the independent crafters that want to use them.  This solution, however, also encourages overhunting which I'm not a fan of.  

How so?  If a hundred scrabs are being killed now, and 250 meat products being left on the sand because of it, how would being able to get a little money for all that meat encourage more hunting?  


I don't know about other hunters, but when I've got a lone hunter or gatherer type, I often stay out of the city for days.  Sometimes I have to go back to the city before I want to, because I've got all I can comfortably carry, and I don't want to waste valuable items by leaving them behind.  I assume that at least some of the wastefull hunters out there wouldn't leave food behind if they thought they could sell it, but they think the shops will be full by Sunday morning, so there is no point in even picking up the meat.  If they take the meat, then their backpack will be full sooner, and there is no reason to keep hunting.  Once you are back in the city there are things to distract you from going out hunting again right away.

I would only have high-purchase depots for meat and other foods though.  While shells, legs and mandibles are useful, the market for those items is not infinite.  As long as people are hungry, the market for food is nearly infinite.   There is a persistant shortage of food in the cities.  It is so bad in Allanak that they are constantly shipping wheat in all the way from Red Storm East, and were shipping down significant quantities of food from the north during the occupation.  Tuluk would seem to be in a slightly better position, but they also have a growing population which will strain traditional food sources.


AC

[SpyGuy]

As always, good point AC.  It wont promote overhunting, just give some minor rewards for it.  But rewards that make lots of IC sense for a starving populace.

[Delirium]

The sid given for those "unlimited" food places could be seriously low - ranging from one to five sid depending on the meat. But at least it'd be a place to get rid of it and not feel like you're wasting it.

Could also try to sell or trade it off to other independant PCs that might not be so good at hunting for themselves.

I agree completely with the skinning time, because frankly, some people just don't realize the little details like that. This would assist the H&S overhunters in pacing themselves, and wouldn't really hurt those who try to be realistic about it in the first place. Being able to get lots more meat in exchange would be nice, as well.. one hunt for one day could indeed last you for a couple days.

[Bestatte]

I got an IMM comment on my account about skinning once. The IMM kindly suggested I might try RPing it a little more.  During the specific incident in question, I had RPed skinning the creatures, but there were 3 dead critters in the room so I just emoted once about going from one to the next. He probably started watching after that and saw me "skin critter" 3 times in a row. I agree that it wasn't all that realistic. In my defense, it was getting late and one of the party needed to get back to the city, and I didn't wanna just let the critters stay there unskinned so I went over them quick. Not exactly realistic on my part, I'll admit.

But I'd much rather have the IMMs (or players!) suggest to hunters while it's going on, that more RP is in order, than have some code-imposed delay.

[spawnloser]

There's code delay on many other things that realistically should take time.  Why not have code delay on one more?

[jhunter]

While I think that more of a delay to skinning...I especially like the variable delay idea, is good idea...something that would add more realism...

...I think people are being too quick to work toward an OOC way to handle the overhunting that is affecting them IG...in fact, I think too many things are being dealt with this way so as to keep from having to risk people's precious pc...IMHO, people need to begin dealing with it IC more and help create more rp.

Going to a coded solution for IG problems that could be handled IG, just takes away from some opportunties for conflict and roleplay.

[spawnloser]

You can roleplay all you want while skinning the shit, jhunter.  The problem is that there is currently NO delay on skinning anything.  This just encourages people to NOT rp because they can just skin it and move on when they think they are alone...because some people get all whiny about solo-rp.  Also, this is a mud, not a mush.  Things are usually dictated by code in muds...otherwise it's a mush.

[Anonymous]

I'm not disputing that...I don't believe you are seeing my point.

Do I think that this is a good idea and something that would be realistic change to the skinning code?

Yes, absolutely.

Do I think that people should resort to changes to the code to fix IC problems?

Absolutely not.

It's not the suggestion at all that I have any problem with...it is what's prompted the suggestion in the first place.

Basically going OOC to deal with an IC problem.

That is all.

[jhunter]

Crap, that last one was me. :oops:

[spawnloser]

I understand that people should fix their own actions.  I still think this should be implemented.

[Gorobei]

A crafting delay on skinning is a good idea, whether or not we have a problem with overhunting at the moment.

[jhunter]

Yep, exactly what I've been saying.

[Maybe42or54]

Alright.
You kill and skin a scrab with four possible things to eat.
Let's say, "Your starving"
Means you have to kill 2+ scrab to get enough to fill you up.
And these scrabs are -HUGE-, Bigger then most humans!
but it takes 2+ scrabs to feed someone!
take 4 hunters. That is moderate to what I see.
so that means 8+  scrabs to feed them. or like 16+ Jozhal.
there has to be more meat when you skin! It is just that simple, It will get rid of a lot of the over hunting, because most of those hunters aren't rangers.
That is just the southern since this seems a southern question.

[Angela Christine]

Alright.
You kill and skin a scrab with four possible things to eat.  Let's say, "Your starving" Means you have to kill 2+ scrab to get enough to fill you up.  And these scrabs are -HUGE-, Bigger then most humans!
but it takes 2+ scrabs to feed someone!  take 4 hunters. That is moderate to what I see.  so that means 8+  scrabs to feed them. or like 16+ Jozhal.  there has to be more meat when you skin!

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe there isn't.  Perhaps most of the creature is inedible.  Like that blowfish that is mostly poisonous, but has a little bit of meat that is supposed to be delicious if it is prepared correctly.  It is a hard world, perhaps 90% of creature out there are poisonous or inedible.  Not 9 out of 10 creatures, but 90% of EACH creature.  

Have you ever squashed a beetle?  Of the stuff that squirted out, how much of it looked like "meat"?  Do insects even have muscle tissue?

Most of the creatures you see are very lean, there isn't going to be a lot of extra flesh on them.  You generally don't eat bone, chitin, sinew, tendon, intestines, skin, fur, cartlige, hair or the green wobbly bits.


That doesn't explain away the amount of meat found on animals like duskhorn and tandu, but the "strange" animals could easily be made mostly of things that can't be eaten by humanoids.

It is just that simple, It will get rid of a lot of the over hunting, because most of those hunters aren't rangers.
That is just the southern since this seems a southern question.

I see a lot of meat on the sand in the south, I don't think there is a shortage of southern meat.  Maybe you aren't a good skinner, or you have a huge stomach, but you can get 4-5 edible things off a scrab, and most of them are more than one bite.  

But that is beside the point.  Over-hunting has nothing to do with meat.  Nobody kills a dozen animals because they are hungry (except perhaps a half-giant).  


Angela Christine

[Gorobei]

Have you ever squashed a beetle?  Of the stuff that squirted out, how much of it looked like "meat"?  Do insects even have muscle tissue?

Angela Christine

I'd say the meat would be plentiful and easily extracted (after you got through the armor).  Lobsters are essentially big bugs, right?

[Stroker]

Protein! Heh

On the issue at hand - I do not see how this delay would solve the problem of wasteful overhunting. Seeing as most who would power game don't even care about skinning .....

[Delirium]

Regardless of whether it would solve over hunting or not, since that's not really the issue..

I'd still like to see a variable, interruptable delay depending on the size of the creature, with the trade-off that you would get more meat and/or skinned items, useable in crafts and such.

Of course, this means that someone would have to go through the hard work of building all of said items, as well as sorting through each huntable animal in the database and figuring out an appropriate delay. Or, perhaps, code it so that the weight of the animal's corpse is taken into question at the time of skinning, and a delay added on for each 'size' level.

It's not something I expect to see any time soon, but it's in the 'would be nice' category for me.

[Realedazed]

Frist of I've never skinned before, I'm just going by the helpfile and what I read in this thread.  But, anyways, here's an idea.  I'm not sure if you can do this with the code, but I think I've seen it in other games.  Put a timer on the skill.  Say you just killed a creature, then you skin it.  The time to skin is exactly the same as it is now, but afterwards you cannot skin again for some time. Say 5 minutes or so. Since you don't have a delay, you can move freely, emote, hunt more, whatever.

Sound good?

[Larrath]

Placing a timer on a skill is possible and even easy.

But, realistically, can you imagine going to a butcher and having to wait for twenty minutes because he had just cut a rabbit?

These sort of timers are generally useful for things that can only be done so frequently...taking a leak, or memorizing a lot of information, maybe some magickal or psychic abilities, as well as sleeping.

[Stroker]

If it doesn't prevent overhunting, then there is no use for it (aside from hard coding realism). You can just as easily emote skinning it for ten or twenty minutes, or as much as you'd like. Personally, I'd rather see the energy of the staff placed elsewhere.

[Ghost]

.. Say you just killed a creature, then you skin it.  The time to skin is exactly the same as it is now, but afterwards you cannot skin again for some time. Say 5 minutes or so. Since you don't have a delay, you can move freely, emote, hunt more, whatever.

Sound good?

I dont think it is realistic.  Lets say I hunted down an animal and skinned it in a second?  And I can spend the time that I should spend on skinning, iddling in a tavern?  That does not sound right to me.  
And lets say I skinned something and one league away I killed a similar thing.  Now what is to stop my PC from skinning that too for the extra time?  Beign tired from skinning?  No, because I am so good that I took another fight, and I can still take another fight, I am not tired.

About being defenseless while skinning because you hold a skinning knife:
I think it is not that bad at playibility issue, because for all we know, you are far more defenseless while you are riding.  You have a skinning knife in your hand while you are skinning, but you have only one equipped hand while you are riding, and riding is not very bad at playibility issue.

So far good ideas.  It is a good idea to have a delay according to the size of the animal.  But it can be also proportional to the parts that you are skinning.  For example, I know t least one animal that you can take only one tooth, and a meat, although the creature is very big.  Whereas there are some very profitable animals that you can skin and get 5+ products.

I dont know much about the coding though, I dont know if it will be too difficult  codewise to apply any of these two, or if it will be too difficult to put a delay in the skin

[John]

I support this code change.

If you're skinning a Mek with dangerous animals a couple of rooms away and doing so in under a minute, IMO you are not playing realistically.

However having said that it most likely isn't going to be a simple case of implementing a time delay.

At the moment things need to be dropped to skinned. What if someone else skins it first? What if someone else takes it away? These would have to be considered when implementing a time delay.

[Ghost]

At the moment things need to be dropped to skinned. What if someone else skins it first? What if someone else takes it away? These would have to be considered when implementing a time delay.

Now there might be a problem: Say what happens when you begin to skin something, and another PC comes and try to skin it too. There might be two solutions for this also:

1) The second PC also begins to skin it, and the result of skinning the body will be the combined effort of both. I dont know if coding such is possible at all.

2) If it is too hard to code the first one, then the second PC gets a message like "You cannot skin soandso body, somebody else is skinning it" or something like that.

There might be more options  too.  

And someone else takes your hunt away, or begins to skin your hunt?  Yes, now it will be the time to show what you are going to do those who steal your hunt  :twisted:

[EvilRoeSlade]

I support this code change.

Even skinning a small animal is delicate and potentially time-consuming work.  So even a flat delay that doesn't vary from animal to animal would be better.

Of course, if you want to make it fancy then you could make the delay based on how many items you get off the animal, or how many items you could potentially get.

[ashjpd]

I like this idea alot.
A couple thoughts:
I think it would be even cooler if this was possible... If there was a time delay, I would think it would be cool if things came out while you are skinning it, like after a minute the hide comes off, and after another minute the meat comes off. And to stop other people from taking what you get, it ends up in your inventory as you work. If you stop while working, the stuff becomes damaged, cause you lose your concentration, or something of that sort.

[Angela Christine]

Wasn't there some talk a while ago about changing the way gigantic creatures were skinned, so it would  go through several states?  Like if you skinned a mekillot first you'd get a skinless mekillot carcas and maybe some skin or shell.  Then a mekillot skeleton, and whatever meat you pulled of it.  "Skin" the skeleton and you get bones and stuff.

I thought something like this was implimented, with a request for feedback.  There was a problem that people rarely skin mekillots so feedback was slow in comming.  Then the topic just sort of faded away.


That wouldn't actually stop you from typing "skin mekillot" three times fast, but would give you more to work with emote-wise, and prevent the unlikely result of skinning a mek and getting a single steak.


AC

[spawnloser]

Yes, AC, and someone mentioned that some creatures did go through multiple stages already...I think.