RE: The child question again (sorry!)

[Tamarin]

1) Your question was answered.  No.  No child NPCs, and no child PCs.

2) This "enjoyable family roleplay" you speak of does not exist on zalanthas.  It is very likely that families do not exist here as they do in the real world.  No happy nuclear families where mommy and daddy love each other and provide everything for their children.  It is more likely to see a pair of drunk ruffians getting it on in the gaj dormitory, who get a kid, and the mom only feeds the poor thing when she's not too drunk off her ass that she realises she's given birth.  Where families do exist is in houses, and a number of their docs state that children are explicitly kept away from society until they reach a certain age.

In short, its very easy to play a happy mommy who carries around her cute baby for everyone to see, disregarding the fact that it is pretty unrealistic.  It is another thing entirely to play a whore who drags around her crack-head two year old as if its a piece of trash.

[Quirk]

Very few authors handle writing child characters well, never mind players RPing them. The odd combination of innocence and self-centred savagery is hard to get right even when dealing with a child from your own culture. Children from a very alien culture present an almighty challenge. Moreover, a very young child in game would be unable to get involved in "adult business" and would be far less likely to play a useful role in a plot than, say, a wandering hunter who appeared in town after a couple of months absence in the wilds.

Quirk

[Tamarin]

Oh yeah, i forgot to comment on the "lone hunter" comment.

It sounds to me like you've never tried one.  Under most circumstances, it is very difficult to remain a hunter that is completely isolated from society.  The very definition of hunter implies that this is a person who goes out looking for raw materials, and brings them back to civilization to get money.  As the hunter progresses, he will be able to acquire more and more prized items that will need to be sold to PCs and clans and the like, creating all sorts of fun stuff.

Someone who remains solitary and never interacts with society is not a hunter.  That is a nomad or hermit.  There is a huuuuge difference.  And just because you aren't out there in interacting with them doesn't mean that other people aren't.

[Akaramu]

uberjazz, last I knew you wanted to play one of your character's kids yourself.

I'll add something more productive to the discussion (and thanks for starting it up) next time I'm stuck with solo RP.  

[Pantoufle]

2) This "enjoyable family roleplay" you speak of does not exist on zalanthas. It is very likely that families do not exist here as they do in the real world. No happy nuclear families where mommy and daddy love each other and provide everything for their children. It is more likely to see a pair of drunk ruffians getting it on in the gaj dormitory, who get a kid, and the mom only feeds the poor thing when she's not too drunk off her ass that she realises she's given birth. Where families do exist is in houses, and a number of their docs state that children are explicitly kept away from society until they reach a certain age.

In short, its very easy to play a happy mommy who carries around her cute baby for everyone to see, disregarding the fact that it is pretty unrealistic. It is another thing entirely to play a whore who drags around her crack-head two year old as if its a piece of trash.

Though I'm not going to argue the no-children policy, I don't think the above statement is accurate.  If this were the case the entire human(oid) species would have long ago wiped out.  Children aren't going to be pampered in the same manner as a modern day child might, but it's very likely any and all parents in Zalanthas would take painstaking efforts to ensure that their child survives.  This does not mean their upbringing is easy or enjoyable.  But sloppily tossing crumbs to an infant during a drunken stupor is a surefire way to see your child wither and die.  I do not believe this would be the norm for parents in such an environment.

[Tamarin]

True, I was stating an extreme, but I also don't think its very likely to coddle a child and have a "happy family" atmosphere.  For one, commoners do not get married (usually), and even fewer manage to own any kind of dwelling at all.  There is so much poverty it just isn't feasable.  Its possible to care for your child, but the way a parent should raise their offspring on zalanthas would involve training.  Teaching them that it is a hash world, and getting them to survive on their own as soon as possible.

[Tamarin]

uberjazz, last I knew you wanted to play one of your character's kids yourself.

Yes, but not a a child's age.  I was thinking at least 18 or 19 years old.

[Akaramu]

I'd reply to that, but it doesnt belong here. I'll be able to add something useful to the thread in about... 40 minutes when I get home.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

I disagree with the idea that it is unrealistic to have a "happy family" unit on Zalanthas.  Far from being rare, I think familes would have -much stronger- bonds in a harsh, poverty-stricken world than in today's modern, rich and alienated society of the disentegrating nuclear family (the extended family is already way dead).

Now, these "happy familes" may be starving to death, thirsty as krath, holes in their clothes, dirty, whatever...but that would just strengthen the family bond and the feeling of commitment to each other.  There would be a "foxhole" mentality of the family against all (us against the world) that would lead to some great conflict on a smaller scale that everyone seems to want (including me).

Now, that's not to say that it's unrealistic to play a loner, a orphan or whatnot.  That would be very common, too, since the death rate is so high.  But, these would be less of the "I ran away from home" type and more "my family was killed"  or "I never knew my family" types.

I'm not trying to rule out the possibility of dysfunctional familes, but these would seem to me to be the exception, with the strong, extended family as the rule.

[Marauder Moe]

On the other hand though, I can see "Get out, son, we can't afford to feed you anymore" situations being fairly common as well.

[Barzalene]

In many poor cultures people sell their children.

[sarahjc]

Ok.. So I see two examples of PC children there to be avoided. Spoiled ones and ones that are trying to get a pass as an easy PC. And it kind of bothers me that the Imm's can trust people to play Magickers and HG's but not Children.  I was actually thinking about a child PC for my next character to get a well-rounded start to the PC's life. Most of my PC's tent to be long lived and I thought what a cool idea to let my pc's history actually be in game. I believe it was spawnloseres post on another thread that convinced me that this is something challenging that I would like to have the option to do.. Or at least App a concept for..

Any well played PC creates depth and adds to the environment to the game, if played within the confines and what is considered realistic regardless of age.

My feelings are that people's motivations for playing extremely young characters often have nothing to do with fleshing out a world like Zalanthas. They are either looking for a character they can get a free pass on (oh, I couldn't possibly put this child, who has skills better than most trained assassin, in jail) or because they're looking for some kind of RP that doesn't line up with a harsh environment.

As far as I can tell we have some very talented people playing this game, some whom RP -very- well.  Those whom can handle a child role that not only could, but -would- help accentuate a harsh environment.  Sorry, but nothing says times are bad like an in-your-face little filthy bag of bones trying to take a peek in your bag.

I've seen a great many 13 year old characters played without an understanding of the realities of Zalanthas. This is not to say I have not seen good 13 year old characters - there also been an abundance of those. But too many people play 13 year olds as prattling babies, cocking their heads winsomely to one side and pouting adorably. Ugh.

Such roles are better filled by VNPCs or objects, not by players. We have a limited number of players and to maximize our goal they should all be at least 13 years old. In such a world that would be somewhat an adult, although we have seen many people pick 13 as their starting age and then play the character as though it were actually 8-9 years old.

Raise the age of normal PC to 15 and continue to special app anything lesser. I think people make these PC's seem babyish because they want to play a younger PC and are not allowed. Pushing the age limit up will force the expectation that this pc -is- an adult, while allowing and special apping of the those younger would help weed out the character concepts you feel are inappropriate to some extent.

While it might be great RP from someone below the age of 13, I don't believe it would add much to the game as we're trying to guide it. The atmosphere of the game is supposed to be conflict for limited resources and a general feeling of do unto others before they do unto you. When people start playing children under 13 it instead creates situations that do not involve conflict.

I fail to see why a young character if played correctly would not fit into a world of conflict and eye for an eye. I know a few templars that wouldn't have a problem chopping off a kids hand for stealing or kicking the wash bucket in thier face as they scrub a tavern floor.. And it would be a pretty disturbing and harsh sight to see a PC -child- walking around with one hand.. If harshness is what you are looking for…

I am sure that Imm's have very good reasoning for not allowing child PC's but if these are them, I am sorry, but I don't think you are putting enough faith in the player base to play roles accordingly.  There is a desire for players to play these kinds of roles and I am sure that some will be better at it than others.  But I think by taking the option away you are stripping the players of something that could be a very fun and fulfilling role, as well as the game from a few potentialy great characters..


Ok, bring on the critics.. And I didn't need that stinking karma point anyway!

No.. wait I take it back.. I did.. I did…

[crymerci]

Ok, I see two distinct styles of child-rearing and children here.

One, the child is pretty independent from a young age, having to learn to make a living as soon as possible.  The parent(s) probably work, and most likely cannot afford a caretaker once the child is basically self-sufficient. These kids see a lot of the world and get wise pretty young.

Two, the parents can afford to shelter their child from some of the harshnesses of life, and would generally keep them at home, or where there would be a caretaker of some sort.

A type One child would have very few childlike qualities. Since they grow up so fast, there is no advantage to them being eight as opposed to thirteen.  So just start them at thirteen.

A type Two child would not get out of the house much, thereby not really contributing to the general roleplay environment, and could just as easily be represented by a VNPC.

[Akaramu]

I agree with sarahjc on pretty much everything she said, especially this:

And it kind of bothers me that the Imm's can trust people to play Magickers and HG's but not Children.

I understand that there probably have been many players starting young to be annoying and get away with it, or do a lot of stupid things and have an IC excuse for it. However, it saddens me that some players who have proven themselves as good roleplayers and are very serious about child roleplay cannot get the opportunity period, because others abused it.

I would just love to play a 6 year old in a tight social structure. Not necessarily a nice and happy household, but an active and social one. Yes, I would REALLY love to. Rumors about child roleplay and child NPCs drew me to the game.

I'm pretty sure giving child PCs no skills at all (if I had been able to play one, I would have requested to receive no skills) and opening them to roleplayers who have proven themselves and write up a very good and convincing special app only would get rid of the abuse problem.

Most players want to be tough, stir things up, make up plots, or get deep into interesting adult affairs. They dont want to realistically play a child. It would be a very restricted role, much like a slave, but even more limited.

Most players want to work on skills, not try to beg some dye off of a crafter of their house's compound so they can paint a small stone red as a gift for mommy.

Impress tavern patrons and earn sid with a witty, well thought out song, not a childish rhyme song about their kank doll named Tiki.

Explore and look for interesting interaction, not stay in the same couple rooms because the guards who still possess their sanity will not let the child out of the compound or the tribal camp alone.

However, a few of us would give an arm and a leg to be able to explore that kind of roleplay. For me, personally, it would probably just last for a couple weeks... but I'm sure me, the parents, and any other players passing by would get very enjoyable experiences out of it.

Yes, the world is supposed to be harsh, but I didnt say that the "tight social structure" necessarily has to be a warm and happy one. I'd be more than content with some grounds for solo roleplay and two active parents... and I'm sure a skilled player could add a lot of -realistic- atmosphere to the world.

More than anything, I think I could do wonders with a child NPC that would just not work with a virtual kid.

I wanted to say more, but I'm getting too sleepy.

[Seeker]

I understand the reasoning.  I agree and accept the reasons behind the limitation.

That being said, suddenly Akaramu's post makes me wish she could run one of my future PC's virtual offspring.  I think it would suck for her, because my character would still be out and about doing stuff, with her trapped in a safe creche for most of her juvenille life, but for the two hours or so a week that we'd interact, I bet she would do a -great- job.

Part of the problem really comes down to child PCs having no ability to make -any- decisions and demanding other PCs stop interacting with the rest of the world, from which the child has to be sheltered, to receive any RP time.

Interesting dilemna if a group of players truly understood the world and all wanted to play a realistic struggling family unit.


Seeker

[sarahjc]

Who is to say that a child PC would be so demanding on adult PC's..

Who is to say that they don't go back to their dirty doorway in the commoners quarter after a full day of begging to munch on their dry crust of bread that they just barely begged enough sid for?

Who is to say that they don't have a job at age 8 at one of the local taverns carting around trays of ale and cleaning up puke and spills for a 50 coins a month and spend their free time hiding under a tavern table playing with a flithy headless doll? Someone's got to do that job right?

Who is to say that they don't go sneaking around outside the confines of their comfy house to go and play with a Half Giant Guard?

Granted, when playing a child PC you must accept that you will face a lot of Solo RP. But it could also be a very dynamic PC. I think a lot more can be done with a dirt poor Child PC than a wealthy one, but still there are a lot of avenues you can take with it. I say make it a strict special app PC and then let the players make a case for why they want to play it and how it would "fit in" Or "benefit" the game. Plus the fact that should this PC make it to adulthood.. Well, what a story they would have.

[Callisto]

But it could also be a very dynamic PC.

I think by dynamic, you mean stunt.

Prostitute PCs, Beggar PCs, Child PCs, Freak PCs, Slave PCs, for every one of them that is well-played, there are at least a dozen more that are shallow attempts to break away and stand out. Those are stunt PCs, and in my opinion, people spend more time day-dreaming about how cool the concept is and almost no time fleshing out the character.

I'm sure the idea of playing a six year old with PC parents sounds great now, because in your head you can imagine all the ideal situations and how cool the interaction would be. The ideal situation is almost never the case for long... and the result is a bored player that either logs less and less, or starts to play the role in an unrealistic manner.

I'm fine with the effective ban on children characters, simply because what they could offer is so heavily outweighed by the disruption they can and have caused in the past.

All in my opinion, of course.

[Akaramu]

I'm sure the idea of playing a six year old with PC parents sounds great now, because in your head you can imagine all the ideal situations and how cool the interaction would be. The ideal situation is almost never the case for long... and the result is a bored player that either logs less and less, or starts to play the role in an unrealistic manner.

I mentioned I'd probably play the role for a couple weeks. There have been temporary roles before so I dont see a problem with it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Though I'm not going to argue the no-children policy, I don't think the above statement is accurate.  If this were the case the entire human(oid) species would have long ago wiped out.  Children aren't going to be pampered in the same manner as a modern day child might, but it's very likely any and all parents in Zalanthas would take painstaking efforts to ensure that their child survives.  This does not mean their upbringing is easy or enjoyable.  But sloppily tossing crumbs to an infant during a drunken stupor is a surefire way to see your child wither and die.  I do not believe this would be the norm for parents in such an environment.

A low-tech society such as Zalanthas will have an infant mortality rate too terrible to comprehend.  You bring up the painstaking care that parents will take to ensure that their child survives, but you fail to mention the dark emotions brought to life through desperation, and the high reliance on mind-affecting substances which are the only sanctuary from the dreary existance of a commoner.  A child survives more out of luck and exceptional fortitude than anything else.  And they can survive, even under the most trying circumstances.  Don't let your modern viewpoint tell you otherwise.  They will be the only two surviving children out of the seven that their parents concieved.  That is what the cruelest cut of nature is all about.  That is why Zalanthians are so fundementally tough and preoccupied with survival.  Anybody with the wrong mindset and the wrong body will be dead.

The population will not cease to exist.  The main reason for this is that the majority of the people are slaves, who will recieve considerably better care as children.  I imagine that the commoner population is in a very faint decline, kept unsteadily constant by immigration from the desert.  Don't forget that we're talking a post-apocalypse.

[sarahjc]

But it could also be a very dynamic PC.

I think by dynamic, you mean stunt.

No, I mean dynamic..I mean that if you take on such a PC that you should understand that the pc may be a very long term character with goals that you most likely will not achieve for a very long time and that you will a lot of the time play a sort of flavor PC.. But that a PC with such an enriched, game-time backround would have the potential to be a very dynamic PC.

Also I did not say that everyone should be able to play them. I think they should be a carefully evaluated Special App. Criteria being if a player is going to put in the time, the idea is solid, the player is responisble, knows that the PC will intale and the imms can agree it fits the feel of the game..

I just think players should have the choice to special app it. The Imms never loose the right to decline them.

[Dracul]

Well one thing is that child pcs will eventually grow up into adults. (that is if they live long enough...and with how much the average player seems to log in...with 1 month=1 year...and by that time unless they didn't train their skills....they'll have one badass grown up although I guess thats beside the point)


I haven't played a child character yet, I'm thinking of playing one that's simply young, play them as a teenager, put less into their background...and let the other pc's I meet mold my character with more influence into what he'll eventually be.

Now this is a long time ago, especially since I didn't play arm from pretty much last fall till this feburary, but back...maybe last summer....I had some interaction with a child pc. (I never thought to check wether they were 13+ and just playing young, or actually special apped for the age) And it was a lot of fun...I wasn't one of the people who had close relations with her, but her character was well played, and obviously a child.

I thought it added a bit to the game...and had just as much potential for rp as any other adult character. Now if we all of a sudden had twenty 6 year old character running around and swarming the naki taverns like child gangs while only a bynner or two were left to watch them...well...that would be overkill. Overkill and pbase distribution (classwise etc) is something that is handled by the imms very well anyways it seems.

I like the idea of having a young character, because as someone wrote pretty well about in another thread, that way you play their background. Their history by the time they are an adult can have actually happened ingame, and feel a lot more meaningful.

All in all, I fully support child pcs, and as I can't think of having seen any lately (seen a couple young ones, but not children), I would like to see some, but just a few. Diverisity...no?

[My 2 sids]

Ok, no time so sorry about the spelling...

Let me ask this question to all the people who hate "love" "family" "nice" characters in game.  What makes this MUD different than other hack and slash games?  I think if we really look at it the main difference is that we have well rounded characters!  THIS INCLUDES THEIR HUMANITY.  The fact is that humans -do- dream, they do have goals, they do fall in love, they do take care of each other and their young.  Yes, it shouldn't be like today... but that doesn't mean nothing can exist.  
Some fine examples can be found in history or even your nearest Dickens novel.  Humans (humannoids) still have good feelings in the worst circimstances.

[crymerci]

I'm sure the idea of playing a six year old with PC parents sounds great now, because in your head you can imagine all the ideal situations and how cool the interaction would be. The ideal situation is almost never the case for long... and the result is a bored player that either logs less and less, or starts to play the role in an unrealistic manner.

I mentioned I'd probably play the role for a couple weeks. There have been temporary roles before so I dont see a problem with it.

What would be the point?  What's in it for the parents?  If you are only going to be around for less than an IC year or so, then that doesn't seem like much of an improvement over the virtual kid they have the rest of the time.

What cool interaction and unique roleplay could you have as an eight year old that you couldn't have just as well, with some changes, as a thirteen-year old?

[Akaramu]

What would be the point?  What's in it for the parents?  If you are only going to be around for less than an IC year or so, then that doesn't seem like much of an improvement over the virtual kid they have the rest of the time.

What cool interaction and unique roleplay could you have as an eight year old that you couldn't have just as well, with some changes, as a thirteen-year old?

You'd be surprised. A virtual child cannot surprise you, cannot develop something creative on their own, without you knowing about it already, and cannot speak. A few examples of things a child PC could do (I already listed examples above, did you look at them?)

Play out a scene with their dolls, make up small stories for others to watch.

Beg some objects used to tinker a gift for a parent off of various PCs and NPCs on their compound, and ask them to not tell the parent to not spoil the surprise.

Have virtual little buddies and do things with them (maybe get hurt and have your kank doll stolen, too)

Ask that bored PC guard over there everything a 6 year old always wanted to know.

I would add more but I'm too tired.

As for family interaction... there is no way a VNPC child could even come close to a real roleplayer. Besides, we all know how tiresome VNPCs can be.  :wink:

[crymerci]

Sorry, but I do not want to see children such as you have described, in the game.  I think that would be unrealistic except perhaps as children of the nobility.

I don't know if you have these in Europe, but you know those "Save The Children" commercials on TV?  The ones that show children in developing countries, with skeletal limbs and bloated bellies, with scabs and scars and sores all over?  You ever notice that blank look in their eyes?  I don't think they're thinking about dollies.

Zalanthas is a third world country.  The average child there may be slightly better off than the kids in those commercials, but not by far.

Even a noble child would be too busy with their lessons to spend much time playing with dolls or bugging House employees.  They would be (rightly) cloistered away where they can't bother anyone.

[Akaramu]

I thought it was pretty clear I was referring to a clanned role of upped standards (not necessarily noble, merchant aide offspring perhaps) and not the common dirt poor street kid. Either that, or tribal. I would both consider roles with fun potentials for a PC child (IF it was possible.) I pointed out that such a role would have to be embedded in a strong social network to be of interest, and add to the game and entertainment of others. A half-starved street kid without skills, without father and a mother too busy to pay attention would NOT be fun to play.

I am aware any Zalanthan child, rinthi or commoner or noble, would be busy with activities other than play. In many cases, nearly no play. I would consider a noble child's lessons enjoyable roleplay as well. I was picking my examples randomly, I didnt try to present them in a way to prove everyone exactly how much I know about culture and the details of daily schedules... I dont, really. But I have common sense.

There are toy shops in Zalanthas... ever seen those? I never see any of those objects put to use. But they exist. VNPCs obviously have a demand for them, otherwise the shop would close down.

You dont have to lecture me about harshness, I am well aware what the Armageddon version of the world is about. I was referring to a special role that would be fun for everyone involved. NOT one that represents the large majority of the population. Adult PCs dont exactly represent the average Zalanthan either, right?

[sarahjc]

Who is to say that a child PC would be so demanding on adult PC's..

Who is to say that they don't have a job at age 8 at one of the local taverns carting around trays of ale and cleaning up puke and spills for a 50 coins a month and spend their free time hiding under a tavern table playing with a flithy headless doll? Someone's got to do that job right?

Sorry, quoting myself here to restate a point but…

I think you should let the players decide what is fun to play.. instead of deciding for them. Just because a role may be difficult, does not mean it is not fun.. Let's face it, not everyone on Zalanthas can rise to become an uber-hunter of greatness. Being a low-class struggling, grimy, parentless child, might just be fun. And don't we have enough uber-hunter of greatness really?

But yes, you can make a case for both fifthly and poor kids as well as rich a pristine ones. I personally think a rich kid might be boring, but that's just me. Any role can be fun to play... all depends on what you want to accomplish with it... I can understand a need to limit such roles, but I don't see why they need be taken away.

[Mar]

A virtual child cannot surprise you, cannot develop something creative on their own, without you knowing about it already, and cannot speak.

Btw... is wrong to make VNPC child speak? Indeed, there is problem with languages, but...
Just curious.