Not enough players on non peak hours.

[Ronberk]

Crossposted from Ask the Staff

Isolation due to the lack of coordination is discouraging the number of people who would play during non-peak hours.

It's my opinion that there are an untapped number of players who would play actively during non-peak hours but are discouraged by the isolation that such efforts would entail; the playerbase is just too scattered for them to have any decent interaction with another PC. Learned response comes into play, as once it's been established in their minds that there won't be anyone playing in the same game area, they will just cease to log in. Solo RP can only sustain so much attention.

My proposed solution would be to create a thread on the GDB where off-peak players (or people who want to play at off-peak hours) would post anonymously their playtimes and homecity locations. If they are a member of organizations (or even independants) that provide services that players would need, they would also state that in the post.

Examples, would be:
"There is a Salarri representative to be found in 'Nak between hours X and Y."
"I am a hunter based in 'Nak between hours X and Y."
"I am a stone-crafter based in Red Storm between hours X and Y."

I would like to know what people think about the problem, and if they have any alternative solutions to it. Don't get too focused on my solution, if you don't like it, please propose another one that might help encourage people to play during non-peak hours.

[spawnloser]

Well, I see this in two ways.

First, yeah, solo-rp all the time can suck.

Second, there is always a Salarri representative or a hunter in 'Nak between any playing times.  There is most likely always a stonecrafter in Red Storm between any playing times.  You have to figure on NPCs and VNPCs...though, that doesn't help you get some non-solo-rp.

If you're going to play a character during non-peak hours, you may want to try to locate yourself in one of the larger homecities so that you are more likely to run into someone, as there is nearly ALWAYS someone on.  That solves the problem of isolation, to some extent.  Granted, that kinda rules out the more isolated areas from your possible homecities, if you were to do this, but you would be the one picking the homecity.  If you pick an isolated one, a small one that no many people would be playing in, expect that to be an issue.

[grog]

The answer is very simple, saturation advertising for those places that play during YOUR peak hours.   Take up a donation for the ad, and then put it everywhere in all those areas that would have the same peak hours.  Think about it, if you get enough people on during your play times, you could become the next majority, immortals would plan RPT's for you, templars and nobles would have to be able to play during your play hours to get the job.  Everybody else would complain about how they only have 50 or so players when they are on.

[Quirk]

To respond to Gilvar:

An anonymous posting of "I play between hours X and Y" with no other details doesn't really help anyone. If you're looking to make an off-peak character who'll get some interaction, knowing that there's a merchant or two in 'Nak playing at those hours or a few hunters in Tuluk is potentially very useful in getting people together. Knowing that other people are playing at those times (via an anonymous posting) is about as helpful as typing "who" and seeing that there are indeed other people online at that off-peak time, although not many.

Posting non-anonymously and co-ordinating OOCly on playing times is another option, of course, but an general anonymous post detailing the social sphere and area active at that time allows people to meet up with much less exchange of IC information, which IMO is a Good Thing.

Quirk

[Gilvar]

well I meant you can include what city and location, as people did in the old post, but I don't think: "Im a salarri merchant playing between 2 and 5 in Allanak" is appropriate.

"I play during 5 and 2 in Allanak" is fine however.

[Quirk]

Well, if it's anonymously posted, there's no way to link said Salarri merchant or hunter to a particular person, and it gives an idea of the social circle the people are moving in. If you create a silk-clad aide type and find out everyone else in your time zone is playing hunters, is out most of the day and attends different taverns at night, you won't see much RP. Conversely, if you make a low-life 'Rinth rat and everyone else in your time zone is a Trader's denizen, you won't be seeing much RP either. Knowing someone's theoretically in the same city doesn't help a lot, and we have enough silly crossing of social boundaries as is.

Quirk

[Ix Machina]

It also creates a problem where say your Salarri merchant dies but noone knows about it. Now your post is completely invalid. How do you cross-post and say 'Oh! Sorry, Salarri merchant died!' without giving away IC information? This is not to mention the linking of player and character in the game that we try to avoid and discourage as much as possible.

This is the problem that giving such detail poses... what to do when the information is no longer relevent, or so specific that it is easy to figure out who the player is by one sentance posted on the boards.

The best thing to do, then, is to simply not give that sort of information out at all and go with a more generic: 'Does anyone play in Allanak around such and such a time?'

[Angela Christine]

No specific descriptions or proffessions, it makes for too many potential problems.

Like:

I am a raider playing in and around Tuluk from 3-5.
I am a pickpocket playing in Allanak from 6-10.
I am a vivaduan playing in Tuluk from 6-3.

Nobody is going to post things like that, at least I hope not.  So what does raider-boy post?  Does he claim to be a "hunter" (ie. hunter of men)?  Lying OOC to get an IC advantage seems wrong to me.

Or you might be creating a new character and see that there are already 3 stonecarvers active in Allanak, so you decide not to make a stonecarver in Allanak because there will be too much competition.  Or if you like conflict and shop-camping, you might decide to make a nakki stonecarver instead of the Tuluki woodcarver you'd planned on apping.  

You don't have to be a terrible, abusive player to do things like that.  When you have that kind of OOC knowledge it is hard -not- to use it.  It leads to angst and self-doubt, because you can't be sure if you are reacting to the info, or over-compensating and still changing your IC behavior in an attempt to not be influenced by the OOC info.  It is a pickle I would rather avoid.

Better to leave the IC info out of it.  Playing times and location is enough to tell other players where to find people, without telling them what kind of people they will find.


AC

[Gilvar]

Or if you know there are thieves in the city you begin suspecting people on at the rare times. Because you know there are only a few people on, one has to be the thief, etc.

And if your not going to say your a thief, but something else misleading, its no help either. I stand by my anonymous, merely playing time and location thing.

[Petra]

I don't think the problem is encouraging more players to login at offpeak hours, so much as the attitude of many of the players who play then.  Which is, indifference towards any interaction whatsoever.  No one is forcing you to interact with someone, and no one is saying you have any IC reason to do so, but it's not hard to come up with a reason to interact, really.  I see people at offpeak hours walk right past me in a tavern or something.  They don't stop at all.  Or .. and this one happens ALL the time .. me and some other PC happen to be strolling down a road heading the same direction, the other one ignores my existance all together and continues on his merry way.  

Believe it or not, there ARE nobles and merchants logged in at off peak hours, but few people seem interested in using them for what they are there for: a catalyst for building plots/interaction.  I don't care if 100 players are online during offpeak hours, if the majority of them are content playing on their own, hunting/shopping/doing whatever, then there's nothing you can do.  You people need to involve yourself with others more.  If I see someone enter the same tavern as me, I'll find an IC excuse to interact.  If you want to call the roleplay police on me because I approached them instead of the umpteen vNPCs in the room, go right the hell ahead, but believe it or not, I play this game so I can interact with others.

[Quirk]

Well, at the very least give some kind of idea what kind of social circle your character moves in, even if it's only the taverns they hang round in. It's useless to have four people all in 'Nak at an off-peak time, one sitting in the Trader's, one in the Barrel, one in the Gaj and one in the Folley. If you're a noble's aide and I'm a 'Rinther, you may well be playing in 'Nak, but you could just as well be in Tuluk for all the good it does me.

Quirk

[Quirk]

It also creates a problem where say your Salarri merchant dies but noone knows about it. Now your post is completely invalid. How do you cross-post and say 'Oh! Sorry, Salarri merchant died!' without giving away IC information? This is not to mention the linking of player and character in the game that we try to avoid and discourage as much as possible.

With an anonymous posting (as I believe I've mentioned several times) there's no linking of player and character. I don't see there's a need to post to say the merchant is no longer around, and it would be preferable to post to mention groupings in any case - something harder to instantly invalidate.

Quirk

[Carnage]

It also creates a problem where say your Salarri merchant dies but noone knows about it. Now your post is completely invalid. How do you cross-post and say 'Oh! Sorry, Salarri merchant died!' without giving away IC information? This is not to mention the linking of player and character in the game that we try to avoid and discourage as much as possible.

With an anonymous posting (as I believe I've mentioned several times) there's no linking of player and character. I don't see there's a need to post to say the merchant is no longer around, and it would be preferable to post to mention groupings in any case - something harder to instantly invalidate.

Quirk

Right, but what if that person posts again with a the time and type of character as a guest? It gives the illusion of more people on and playing at that time as well.

[Anonymous]

I see people at offpeak hours walk right past me in a tavern or something.

That can just be spam-walking.

Believe it or not, there ARE nobles and merchants logged in at off peak hours, but few people seem interested in using them for what they are there for: a catalyst for building plots/interaction.  I don't care if 100 players are online during offpeak hours, if the majority of them are content playing on their own, hunting/shopping/doing whatever, then there's nothing you can do.  You people need to involve yourself with others more.

One time I found an excuse to interact with that sort of character, all through the use of a little VNPC, and have been having the time of my life since.

[Bhagharva]

No offense to anyone that actually considers this an issue, but my personal feelings on it are that if you need someone else to hold your hand while you play, you might be playing the wrong game. Prime time hours of EST are topping at almost 80 players now, the offhours imms are there and just as responsive as imms during the day. (Sure it may take longer and you -could- have some bad timing, imms aren't sitting and waiting for your beckoning.) Even at 6am EST there are enough players on in the world that you can run into a PC if you use your head.

Really, that is the key to it. Think about where the high traffic areas are and why it might be easier to find a noble or merchant if you actually looked.

That said, I do think that off hours could use some more players. So advertise. Get your friends to play. Get your enemies to play. Get your mom to play.

[Malifaxis]

I am whole heartedly against this idea.  Solo RP is something that must be mastered if one is to Arm, and the information grants way too much potential towards abuse.

You wanna interact?  Find people.  No people in your area?  Find another area.

I fail to see the difficulty with the equation.

[My 2 sids]

I think many here are misunderstanding what Ronberk is trying to say.  Nothing is being said that he wants to do away with all solo-play or anything to suggest

No offense to anyone that actually considers this an issue, but my personal feelings on it are that if you need someone else to hold your hand while you play, you might be playing the wrong game.

(that kind of quote is exellent whenever dealing with people who are feeling isolated and maybe unsure if the game is friendly) Wanting a lot of IC help or saying anything about Imm response.  What I see he him talking about is Isolation due to the lack of coordination is discouraging the number of people who would play during non-peak hours.  He's saying there should be some way so it's easier for non-peek people to get together.  This isn't anything new... in fact this is what Player Announcements and OOC communication is for!  To coordinate players and playing times!  What's the difference between trying to coordinate non-peek players and say "Hey, RTP happing on Sunday and 2pm est"?  

Even if his suggested solution might be a bit too IC, this is still a very valid question.  What can we do to help coordinate players? I think the better we answer this question the more people we will draw to the game.  About the only idea I could come up with are to post some player information.  The staff should have records they could easily make into a graph or something to show when and where there are players.  Nothing IC... more like a graph that would show:  At 10am est there are 5 pcs in Nak, 10 pcs in Tuluk, 0 pcs in Red storm.  Or:  Clans X and Y show the most pcs around during early morning hours (est).  This information I don't think would be too IC, rather it would give players an opportunity to see where they might look to locate depending on if they want a lot of interaction or not.

[Quirk]

Malifaxis, I generally have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but on this occasion you don't have a clue.

If the only thing you do on Arm is solo RP, and you never meet anyone else, you might as well sit and type up a story in a text file instead. At the end of it you'll have some kind of product out of your creativity, and you'll have had every bit as much enjoyment. While there shouldn't be a distinction between "solo" and "normal" RP insofar as you play your character, if you aren't meeting people at any point there's no reason for you to log on.

We're talking about seriously off-peak hours, Malifaxis. Not "there's 30 people on" off-peak. We're talking about "there's 6 people on" off-peak. European late mornings off-peak. As of the time I posted this, which is European afternoon, there were 11 players on. I'm not restricted to play at those hours, but I have played at that time, and it's damn quiet, and I have a lot of sympathy for those who can only get on at that sort of time.

You wanna interact? Find people. No people in your area? Find another area.

Think this one through. Seriously. So you want to interact with people with your current character, but you play at off-peak hours and there's no-one around. How do you propose you find another area? Even assuming it's IC for your Nakki patriot to up sticks and traipse across the world to Tuluk, making such a trip alone is likely to cause character death. Or are you recommending that people retire their characters and create new ones at the other side of the world, one after the other after the other until they find out where the other six people are playing? And aren't you assuming there that those other six people aren't doing the same thing and are waiting to be found?

So you're lucky enough to be able to log on close to peak hours. Good for you. Getting all high and mighty when other people complain that because they log on when hardly anyone else is around they have problems ever finding anyone to RP with doesn't suit you.

It's a vicious circle, really. People who log on at that time and finding no-one to play with get discouraged. After a while they log on less often. Arm loses players, and when someone new logs on at that time, the people who used to log on then do so no longer. Acknowledging this as a problem and brainstorming ideas to help resolve it is a Good Thing, IMO.

Quirk

[Ronberk]

I don't think the problem is encouraging more players to login at offpeak hours, so much as the attitude of many of the players who play then.  Which is, indifference towards any interaction whatsoever.  No one is forcing you to interact with someone, and no one is saying you have any IC reason to do so, but it's not hard to come up with a reason to interact, really.  I see people at offpeak hours walk right past me in a tavern or something.  They don't stop at all.  Or .. and this one happens ALL the time .. me and some other PC happen to be strolling down a road heading the same direction, the other one ignores my existance all together and continues on his merry way.  

It is my theory that the isolation of those hours have driven away players who are interested in interaction, leaving behind the players who are only interested in solo-rp. This is why PCs you encounter during those time periods are more likely to ignore your existence; you can't really correct their attitudes because that's their style of playing.

What I hope for is a solution to help people who enjoy interacting during those hours.

[Malifaxis]

Malifaxis, I generally have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but on this occasion you don't have a clue.

Sorry to burst your bubble, bud, but I am Mr. Off-Peak Hours.  Typically there are 10 (give or take 5) people on at my time.  I *am* restricted to playing at those times, unless I seriously frag my sleep schedule.  I work CST overnights... so either I'm logging on after work, when I have energy, or I'm waking up early, and RP'ing, and going to work tired off my ass.  So thanks for the slightly condescending tone and all, but perhaps you can see how utterly wrong you are.

As for traipsing my 'Naki patriot' half way across the world... yeah, there's *plenty* of reasons for it.  You give me any race, class/sub combo, and I can come up with a plethora of reasons for it.  Perhaps I'm just too creative.  And as for retiring or killing off your PC... that's absurd.

Any place you are, there's places near by that you can get to that are wildly different.  In Nak?  Hit up RSV or the 'rinth.  With a proper reason, possibly generated in part by those ever so helpful VNPCs, then it's totally probable.

As for brainstorming and help... perhaps look on the helper list, and ask a helper to give you advice on what to do.  As was already mentioned, possibly use the Player Announcements section of the GDB.  Or recruit, recruit, recruit, which I'm all about (or at least I think I am, as I've recruited at least 15 folks... 6 or 7 of still play).

And if all else fails... shit, feel free to PM me, and I can see what I can do to help hook the person in question up.  I've played all over, and most of the time I've played alone.  I'm a master of finding entertaining shit to do and causing a ruckus.  And if you're interesting enough... people will come to you.  It never fails to happen.

Sorry you don't think I have a clue, but the way I see it, a place to post what you are, where you are, and when you are is just asking to get raped.  Because someone, somewhere, somewhen, will use that information to their advantage, and will come stick a love-shank in your economic wet pouch.  It's bound to happen.  After all, not everyone can be as honorable as us, right?

[My 2 sids]

I fail to see the difficulty with the equation.
Isolation
The answer is very simple, saturation advertising for those places that play during YOUR peak hours. Take up a donation for the ad, and then put it everywhere in all those areas that would have the same peak hours.
I don't think the problem is encouraging more players to login at off-peak hours, so much as the attitude of many of the players who play then.
No offense to anyone that actually considers this an issue, but my personal feelings on it are that if you need someone else to hold your hand while you play, you might be playing the wrong game.
It is my theory that the isolation of those hours have driven away players who are interested in interaction, leaving behind the players who are only interested in solo-rp.

Granted, I didn't quote all of the posts so perhaps some of this was posted in a different context but look at some of what has been said here!  (Some by helpers or Imms who are looked upon as leaders of the game) After talking to a few individuals it has become apparent to me some of the non-American and/or non-peek time people are feeling unsure about this game and starting to feel like second class citizens.  And that's not right.  But then I read some of the responses of this post and wow, a lot of this is said in such a way that people could feel really hurt.  I'm not trying to tell people how to "be nice" but I did want to maybe bring to the attention of what is being said here.  

I realize the game needs to take the majority into consideration first and for-most.  That's life.  But, I think we could do more to make this game less threating to non-peek or non-American players.  Part of that is not saying things in a way to devoid what is a very valid feeling... that there is a part of the playerbase that not only is feeling isolated and frustrated, but flat out rejected.  Part of the solution may be to open more roles up to non-peek-time-players (many times a role is stated that one needs to be around during peek-times) and coordination between non-peek players.  But, a great deal of the solution is to watch how we treat each other.

[Quirk]

Sorry to burst your bubble, bud, but I am Mr. Off-Peak Hours.  Typically there are 10 (give or take 5) people on at my time.  I *am* restricted to playing at those times, unless I seriously frag my sleep schedule.  I work CST overnights... so either I'm logging on after work, when I have energy, or I'm waking up early, and RP'ing, and going to work tired off my ass.  So thanks for the slightly condescending tone and all, but perhaps you can see how utterly wrong you are.

Apologies, then. I hadn't realised that, or I would have responded completely differently.

As for traipsing my 'Naki patriot' half way across the world... yeah, there's *plenty* of reasons for it.  You give me any race, class/sub combo, and I can come up with a plethora of reasons for it.  Perhaps I'm just too creative.  And as for retiring or killing off your PC... that's absurd.

If you make a character that's got solid reason to travel, and go looking, more power to you. Tacking on reasons later to a character who was never intended as a traveller - well, that's often a bit dicier. I've heard "reasons" to justify all manner of odd IC behaviour in my time, and I've come to the conclusion not all reasons are good reasons.

Taking a PC across the world alone needs a damn good IC reason, anyway. If your PC is going to risk what he or she ought to regard as probable death (what are the IC odds on an untravelled merchant or 'Rinth pickpocket out there alone on the sands making it alive?) then there should be something vitally important behind it. Some stretches may be made for playability that ICly don't make that much sense, but if everyone wasn't so isolated these stretches would be fewer and further between.

As for brainstorming and help... perhaps look on the helper list, and ask a helper to give you advice on what to do.

What's the helper going to do? They can hardly summon up more players to play at those times. They're probably going to hesitate to tell you to stretch your RP for playability reasons.

As was already mentioned, possibly use the Player Announcements section of the GDB.  Or recruit, recruit, recruit, which I'm all about (or at least I think I am, as I've recruited at least 15 folks... 6 or 7 of still play).

Uh. Wouldn't the advantages and disadvantages of posting on the Player Announcements section of the GDB be more or less identical to those of the currently proposed scheme?

And are you suggesting that of the 10 people online at this sort of hour, 6 or 7 were recruited by you?

Sorry you don't think I have a clue, but the way I see it, a place to post what you are, where you are, and when you are is just asking to get raped.  Because someone, somewhere, somewhen, will use that information to their advantage, and will come stick a love-shank in your economic wet pouch.  It's bound to happen.  After all, not everyone can be as honorable as us, right?

And this would be much worse than, say, having a character in a city where no-one else is round while someone else has a thiefly character in another city where no-one else is round, and then one day journeying to that other city (as per your earlier suggestion) and being ripped off then?

I'm afraid I don't quite buy that.

Quirk

[Malifaxis]

I'm hopping a sub-thread in this forum so as to prevent permanent derailment.

-- Okay, no I'm not.  I'm just copying this here and going to sleep.  I am, however, refusing to further the debate on anything other than the problem of coordination, which, as I've stated, I would rather see be done IC.

This is a continuation from a previous thread, found in this forum, named:
Not enough players on non-peak hours

I'll make a few points before I elaborate:

Quirk wrote:

Tacking on reasons later to a character who was never intended as a traveller - well, that's often a bit dicier

Yes, arbitrarily tacking on reasons just to get some excitement is bad.  But, lets put forth a hypothetical situation or a few.  You are a merchant of some sort, you have loads of sid but you need more materials.  Hire an indep PC guard (if you can find one), *or* if you can not, roleplay out sitting in a bar with a vnpc, chatting them up and trading drinks with them, spend some sid on them, and offer them a nominal fee if they will help get you to X destination, so that you can collect these other supplies, then send in a written up NPC to mud@ginka, along with a smattering of the logs and your reasoning (need to find somewhere to interact, please help), and perhaps the Staff will be kind enough to oblige (I can't imagine that they wouldn't, as I've seen they're all very understanding.)

Perhaps you're not a merchant, perhaps you're a combat class... and you're broke.  Get rowdy, get in a few vnpc bar brawls, get your arse kicked emote style, get pissed off at the militia for not helping you against that dirty 'rinther/d-elf/magicker that just wholloped you and stole some of your stuff (junk a few things).  If you're in Tuluk, your next best bet is Ten'Sarak.  If you're in 'Nak, best go with Red Storm.  Find one of those 'weathered' or 'sun bleached' or 'Hi, I'm a Ranger' NPCs, wish up, asking to purchase directions to the town from this NPC, hand over some sid if a Staffer responds, and boot on over.

And while I could shamelessly promote a particular clan, I won't... but I will infer that there is at least one clan out there with players on at all times, and travels a hellacious amount.  Travel or be patient until you find some of them, and then do everything but bend over and smile trying to get into said clan.

As for asking help from a Helper... Helpers are Helpers because they've been around a while, they're helpful, and most likely, they know a good amount of people.  Chances are that one of those helpers is going to know someone else relatively close to where/when you're playing, and can provide you with a helpful nudge in the direction without giving away a crapload of IC information.  They can't summon up more players, but they can call upon resources at their disposal... including that other 'rinther PC they just helped create the other day for this other odd houred player.

Now, on with the show.

If you are starved for interaction, there are a lot of ways you can draw attention to yourself IC'ly... unless you are playing an utterly and compltely socially inept claustraphobic antisocial bastard... which I have done.  Since travel seems to be the big issue here, lets eliminate that possibility, whittling the problem down to "Finding people near you that also want interaction."

Make up some cool story about something you did with some vnpc, or use an actual really cool story if your PC has one, and go into a tavern... chat up the bartender, or the bynner at the back table, or the whateverNPCyouwant, or use a VNPC... tell them the story, act like they bought you a drink, then turn around and flop it up on the public board.
"Hey, did you hear about that guy who did a triple backflip from the top of Whira's Tower while singing 'My kank peed on a dwarf'?  Yeah, his name's Amos... I hear he's looking for work as an entertainer, but he's really hard to find... I hear he spends most of his time out in some village, shovelling escru shit to make ends meet, but during the deep end of the week he comes in to 'Nak looking for a better job and a good drink."

Now granted, this might draw some crazy 'rinther to come scope you out and whack you, but at least it's an IC way to do so, instead of an OOC co-ordination attempt being abused because the crazy 'rinther auto-magickally knows you're around during blah to blah hours.

-this is where I stop.  I'm too sick (literally, not insultingly/figuratively) and tired to continue.

[Seeker]

My 2 sids  <<----- What he said.

I love players.  More players.  More Off-Peak Players!  

Logging on, and finding out that all kinds of great stuff has happened over-night (while Peak Players were snoozing) would be -awesome-.  It would bring the fact home that when the Peak Player is away, Zalanthas is still rocking.

If you want to increase the addiction factor, make sure that -every- player knows that if they are not logged on RIGHT THIS MINUTE that they are likely missing something utterly cool.

Mali is right.  People -always- go where the fun is.  Unfortunately, I see the major burden lying pretty heavily upon the Off-Peak Players' shoulders to harvest and develop new Non-Peak junkies.  Armageddon's advertising is already 24/7, worldwide.  Word of mouth, and one-to-one dragging of the unenlightened to the keyboard is what seems to work best.  There is a huge population that could be tapped, and there is no reason that the phrase "Peak Hours" even has to have any meaning in a year or two.

Non-Peakers should get a girlfriend/boyfriend and subvert them.  It is a well documented, successful technique.  It certainly will give the Non-peak players who want interaction... um... interaction.  


Seeker

Even an OFF-HOURS FORUM on the GDB might be something, possibly, that could be useful to further highlight legit OOC co-ordinatation, and to display Arm's commitment to expanding Non-Peak interests.  If I didn't have to work or sleep, I'd use a PC to start running deluxe RPTs just for Non-Peak.

[Twilight]

I think it is all up to the players.  Having a noble or merchant employer around helps.  I remember a few years ago, the time I played at there was regularly 1-4 players on.  The were a couple of fairly active nobles that played during these times, and players seemed to naturally over time get attracted to their base of play, Allanak.  It was pretty often I could sit in a room and see all the players logged in at that time.  That was before the recent influx of new players, but I think something similar could happen, especially if you get one or two good leaders who drive things, and are visible.

[Quirk]

Some excellent ideas there, Malifaxis. I should have mentioned earlier that I heartily endorse the rumour board approach - it allows so much more flexibility than a GDB post.

Given that you're talking about a handful of players who log on at those times, and there are a lot of helpers that people go to, and some of us who log on at those times are old hands who don't speak to helpers about our characters, I still think you're being overly optimistic about helpers being able to help in this situation - but it's certainly not going to hurt to ask them.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

This was being discussed in IRC the other day.  I discussed it with someone from Europe...who muds during off-peak hours, just like me.  She said that what I said made her feel unwelcome.  All I said is that if you come from another location, basically, you have to cope.  I didn't say, 'STFU and deal with it, bitch,' but meant that you can either try to alter your schedule so that you go to bed earlier/later so that you can get up earlier/later and work your free time around what is mandatory so that you can play during hours where more people are around or you have to learn to enjoy solo-rp or play a character that is in another IG location.  You have these options, and it is up to you to decide which is best for you.  Don't give out any information in OOC ways to increase the likelihood of you encountering someone, as that IS the spread of IC info through OOC channels, and not right.  When in clan, you are giving this information because there are NPCs and VNPCs that would pass the info along, and it is a way to let people know that a new face is around so that others don't go berko when they see a stranger.  (It has happened, and PC death has resulted over a simple confusion such as this.)  When dealing with the city at large, use the IC board.  If someone isn't around a place that an IC board is, they shouldn't know crap about you or your playing times.  Give a brief, entertaining post that suggests at a playing time maybe...but don't give out blatantly OOC info.

[Tmp]

When dealing with the city at large, use the IC board.  If someone isn't around a place that an IC board is, they shouldn't know crap about you or your playing times.  Give a brief, entertaining post that suggests at a playing time maybe...but don't give out blatantly OOC info.

IC boards good. But I don't see why you have to so anal and obsfucate matters by "suggesting" a playing time through your weird idea of pseudo-fiction. Just state it outright on the bottem of your IC board post-- OOC: This are my main offpeak playing times, etc

Much better than alluding to them using shit like "but during the deep end of the week". Man, what's that even suppose to mean?

[da mitey warrior]

I've always thought that clans were the way to go with this.  Have one or two clans designated as off peak clans.  Maybe one for early morning and one for late night.  They could have off-peak imms watching them and off-peak leader-types running them.   If nothing else, they'd provide a center for interactions and the off-peak population can rise from there.  You never see advertisements for off peak times.

[Sandferret]

I was not going to post on this topic again, but there are two posts that I feel a need to comment.

I am the European spawnloser mentions. The words that made me feel unwelcome were: "This is a game ran by and for Americans."  The highlight is mine. I don't want to single out spawnloser, the same thing has been said by others and he was not even hostile. If it were just one person, I would shrug it off easily, but it is not.

The other post is by da mitey warrior:

Have one or two clans designated as off peak clans.

I really do not like this. I accept that there are roles that are meant to be played when the highest number of people are online at the same time. Those roles are not available to the likes of me who prefer to sleep at night, I understand that.

Of course the suggestion has some merit: people would interact. But ,to me at least, it restricts more than helps. While I can, and do, live with the fact that certain roles are not accessible to me no matter how well I play, I do not want to have only one or two choices available.

I will much rather play alone in the clan, seeing the other people once or twice a week than play with the same people over and over again in the same clan or to play all by myself somewhere in the wilds. I prefer Clanned play, but I also prefer variety. It is the Spice of Life, as you know.

Over the past months I have tried to make people feel welcome, no matter what country they come from. There have been a few times I have referred a Helpee to someone else due to a very late hour (to me), I hope they have not taken offense. I have to at times tell people IC that I must go 'rest', but so does almost everyone, we all have lives to attend.

To those off-peak time people (regardless where you come from) I want to say: There are people about at any time of the day. There are opportunities for you, if you wish to grasp them. I do recommend picking one of the more populated areas, but that is just my opinion. Some people love solitude. Most importantly: Don't give up on the game for this.

[Carnage]

The MUD is made for people who want to play it properly. Not Americans, Mexicans, Canadians, South Americans, or whoever is in the peak time zone range. The fact that many people in this area play it and that becomes the chief online time is just a side effect. I highly doubt that Sanvean and Nessalin are looking down and rubbing their hands together as they brood and constantly repeat, "Good, good. soon only the Americans will play."

While it's unfortunate that you may not be able to log on at peak times, there's not much others can really do about it. Try and recruit more players from your area is the best suggestion I can give.

[spawnloser]

I never said 'by and for Americans' I said it was 'made and ran by Americans' and that things would naturally be biased towards the most convenient times for Americans.  I tried to explain that, SandFerret, but you stopped responding on that conversation.  I was simply trying to say that you have to understand that bias.  Find your own solution for the bias, but understand it none-the-less.  I really am sorry if how I said it suggested something other than the above, but I really am more than happy for everyone the world over to join in so that there would no longer be such a thing as 'peak hours.'

[Carnage]

I never said 'by and for Americans' I said it was 'made and ran by Americans' and that things would naturally be biased towards the most convenient times for Americans.  I tried to explain that, SandFerret, but you stopped responding on that conversation.  I was simply trying to say that you have to understand that bias.  Find your own solution for the bias, but understand it none-the-less.  I really am sorry if how I said it suggested something other than the above, but I really am more than happy for everyone the world over to join in so that there would no longer be such a thing as 'peak hours.'

Maybe you were drunk again?

[Kayse]

I too play mostly off peak hours.  I have tried everything that people have suggested, I've played independants, hoping for more freedom so I can get out and interact, I've played in clans (honestly though, sometimes after 4 hours of rping out a clan schedule by myself, 3 nights in a row, it just gets too much.) I've been around long enough that turning to a helper is not the way for me to go.  I'd like to add some support to Sandferret also.  I too have felt that 'second class citizen' status, I am certain it is not intended that way, but there it is.

What I think most people are missing is this.  People are taking this as off-peak players whining that they aren't having fun, that's incorrect.  I'm still here, a few years on, still loving the game.  What Ronberk originally was saying is that there are players who are discouraged by lack of interaction and therefore not logging on and there are new players logging on at that time and not finding anyone to interact with. (I have recruited three or four who said that they just couldn't find anyone around, and have since given up.)

Perhaps the posting of playing times isn't the best, perhaps grouping into areas or clans wouldn't work (I'd personally hate this.) But dismissing the problem as invalid or as players needing to 'suck it up' or 'go out and find others' isn't constructive.

[Bestatte]

I"ve tried recruiting people who play at peak times, who stopped playing because they didn't have people to RP with. I play during peak times, and often find I have no one to RP with. Sure there might be 50 people playing at the moment, but when you come from a game that has over 1000 people playing at the moment, 50 ain't nuttin. It's not even worth mentioning, especially if the 2 of those 50 you actually run into are either a newbie you don't feel like spending the next 3 hours helping, or a templar who your character wants to avoid.

I'd like to see more people showing up on the "who" list early mornings. It won't really mean anything to me, other than the comfort of knowing that SOMEWHERE, someone else is playing the game. But my chances of running into those other people and having a reason to interact with them are pretty slim.

My point? That the grass isn't always greener, AND that I accept that not a whole lot of people are interested in being awake and playing at 6AM eastern time. If I want to play during that time I need to come up with some interesting things to keep myself entertained. Because for all you people who claim to be around that time and never see anyone - I never see any of you. So, whatever. <shrug>

[Boggis]

There's not much that can be done about it. The majority of mudders are American so thats where the peak numbers always will be. Being a European it means that quite a lot of times there won't be that many players about when I'm playing. Its not so bad though once you get up to about 11pm GMT where there's regularly 40+ on.

If some players are deciding to quit because they play off-peak and there's not a lot to do then I think us non-peak players have to make the effort to create things which keep people interested and coming back. Interaction, little story lines, etc. - all these things will help to retain players in the long run. I would like to see something like a noble or a templar be created for those times - somebody who plays GMT can mix with both off-peak and peak players and could provide a good link between the two player groups. Plots and story lines could travel back and forth between the groups and people might get more drawn into the storylines in general instead of feeling isolated. Sure everybody can create their own little things which is fun as well but I think it'd be nice if a greater number of people could be brought into the peak time storylines in some fashion as opposed to simply reading about them on the rumour boards.

[spawnloser]

Wow, you have no better arguement, Carnage?  I thought you were more creative than that.

[Bhagharva]

No offense to anyone that actually considers this an issue, but my personal feelings on it are that if you need someone else to hold your hand while you play, you might be playing the wrong game.

(that kind of quote is exellent whenever dealing with people who are feeling isolated and maybe unsure if the game is friendly)

We have to balance harshness with hand holding 2sids. I live on the east coast but usually am on when there are few people on. It amazes me when I show up in EST prime time and someone says, "Where have you been?! You never log on!" Off peak players know of what I speak. The trouble I have with this discussion and what prompted me to write was that this is a cry of injustice, that we are not doing enough as arm society to coordinate players on off hours. I say, coordinate yourself. That is where it starts. Almost all off hour players that I watch regularly are pretty good. Ok, we get some boners that think they can get away with crap at 4:30amEST.

Advertise, and make arm an experience for yourself and those around you. This game stands for itself. You the players make it come alive. That will draw players. Not my sweet talk and cooing.

Armageddon is a personal experience for everyone that plays it and loves it. I tend to look at the off hours as the Tuesday-Thursday of the arm week. Not as much traffic, sleepier even. People are caught in the day to day and can't come out to play.

Armageddon                                                         (Newbie)

  The world of Armageddon MUD is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh desert
planet where only the very fittest survive, and competition over extremely
scarce resources causes constant strife and bloodshed. In Armageddon, a few
things will be apparent:

2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
   free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
   you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
   only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
   the end of their careers.

4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
   your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
   See point 2 above.

[Ronberk]

The trouble I have with this discussion and what prompted me to write was that this is a cry of injustice, that we are not doing enough as arm society to coordinate players on off hours. I say, coordinate yourself. That is where it starts. Almost all off hour players that I watch regularly are pretty good. Ok, we get some boners that think they can get away with crap at 4:30amEST.

I'm sorry if you misintepreted my original post as a cry of injustice against the immortals for not doing enough to help the off-peak players.

As far as I knew, I wrote about a problem that I perceived (which I might or might not be wrong about), which is: Isolation due to the lack of coordination is discouraging the number of people who would play during non-peak hours.

Then I suggested a solution that might or might not be acceptable.

Then I asked for opinions about that solution.

Then I asked that if the solution isn't acceptable, can people come up with more solutions, that we as a community could implement.

You seem fixated with the idea that I am a newbie and I need hand holding, and I am blaming the Imms for my isolation, to the point you need to quote the Newbie helpfiles at me. I do not know where you got this idea from. Telling us that Zalanthas is ICly harsh does nothing to help with the problem.

[Bhagharva]

My proposed solution would be to create a thread on the GDB where off-peak players (or people who want to play at off-peak hours) would post anonymously their playtimes and homecity locations. If they are a member of organizations (or even independants) that provide services that players would need, they would also state that in the post.

I didn't mention your soloution specifically because it was covered and we already do this. It's called the GDB and we have clan boards for this purpose. Others have already made suggestions that you should be vague in your post about playtimes. There is also a forum for players to make RPT's. So in essence, yes. I think the soloution proposed wasn't thought out completely. You lack an actual soloution.

I'm sorry if you misintepreted my original post as a cry of injustice against the immortals for not doing enough to help the off-peak players.

As far as I knew, I wrote about a problem that I perceived (which I might or might not be wrong about), which is: Isolation due to the lack of coordination is discouraging the number of people who would play during non-peak hours.

Look at the quote you took from my post. I specifically said Arm society. I never mentioned immortals not doing enough. As an immortal. I know better. There is plenty being done.

So I suggested advertising more, as others have as well. It is the only real answer to isolation due to low play traffic. This is an alternate soloution that will work.

Nowhere did I state that I viewed you as a newbie that required handholding. I am referring to players that are coming on board and not understanding the reasons why we have low traffic at off-peak hours. I am also stressing that Armageddon is a harsh place that isn't set up so we can all have a cozy rp session, catered to the player and packaged so it doesn't offend. Screw that. If this mud turns into that, I'll lose interest quick.

I can also see that where it is a harsh world, we can do things ooc to encourage newbies. Yet at the same time, we need to explain to them that this isn't Smurfville or Happyfunland.

I am not speaking directly to you in my posts Ronberk I am speaking to everyone reading this. So to get to the root of the problem in this discussion. I was demonstrating to 2sids (who was complaining about my attitude towards this discussion and using that as an example of why players get scared away) that newbies need to learn that this game isn't set up to revolve around OOC tempers and the sensitivity of the people playing, it is about the IC world and what comes with playing in a harsh environment. My2sids took my quotes out of context, and now you have too. Stating that we need to concentrate on the IC harshness IS part of the soloution. If you want more players on off-peak hours. You need to find players that can understand the rules and act according to the rules.

I'm not really convinced that off-peak players are feeling isolated as a group, I am convinced that you are feeling very isolated as an individual Ronberk. I don't think your going to be happy with any soloutions proposed unless someone here says, "Yes, you are absolutely correct and we better get to work soon on coordinating these players on off-peak hours so they won't feel like the red-headed stepchildren of Armageddon."

Try reading the suggestions people are making to you.

What I think most people are missing is this. People are taking this as off-peak players whining that they aren't having fun, that's incorrect. I'm still here, a few years on, still loving the game. What Ronberk originally was saying is that there are players who are discouraged by lack of interaction and therefore not logging on and there are new players logging on at that time and not finding anyone to interact with. (I have recruited three or four who said that they just couldn't find anyone around, and have since given up.)

I am specifically referring to the new players that log on. Veteran players should know what is up by now.  Newbies are a VERY important part of this discussion. Since the veteran player will most likely have an idea of where to find other players when the headcount is low. If the veteran player is getting discouraged perhaps they should consider playing the noble or the templar and rounding up who they can.  

I still view this as a couple off-peak players complaining that there isn't enough plot revolving around them. We have immortals on, we have plots running and we have a place to coordinate playtime. What more do you need besides more players?

[Akaramu]

I'm one of those off-peak players who dont really have a lot of choice when they can get on. I used to, but since my job started, I cant really wake up early or go to bed at 3 AM anymore. Except on weekends.

Sometimes it has bugged me a lot, then again I found ways to still have fun without anyone to directly interact with. If you ask me, it depends a lot on the clan you are in.

Some clans lock you up on the clan grounds with a schedule and a lot of solo RP if no one else shows up, unless you break rules.

Other clans give you a lot more freedom in what you can do when.

My personal fun-o-meter went up quite a bit when I escaped clan type A (cause seriously, no one would ever show up at the odd times I played to relieve me from my solo RP misery) and joined clan type B. I needed some time to accept lack of combat training, though (cause rarely someone would show for sparring) and figure out other things I could do.

I disagree that you need to master solo roleplaying to play Armageddon. I doubt I ever will, I solo RP a bit here and there, but I need to be in the mood for it (and after 9 hours of work I just am not, esp. as I always struggle with language, and proper english is more work for me). Its all about carefully planning your characters so they will not force you into a locked up isolated situation. Of course you cant plan everything, but it is possible to avoid isolation without breaking ICness.

All clans I have been part of also allowed you to coordinate your login times with others by posting them. If you dont like solo RP, you want to join highly populated clans that dont restrict you too much. You can also ICly ask your potential future boss about how much schedule-sticking would be expected of you when you join. If you are allowed to leave the city. If you can show a bit of initiative on your own without having to wait for a superior. Etcetera.

I never had a problem with imm presence, I have very rarely not encountered one on. Good thing about odd hours is, you have that imm almost to yourself, and chances are that he can get to you immediately if you need one  

[Ronberk]

Bhagharva, whatever your original intentions were, you misrepresented them severely in your first posting to this thread. Nobody was talking about newbies, handholding, immortal intervention or turning Zalanthas into carebear-world before you came along with your first posting saying:

No offense to anyone that actually considers this an issue, but my personal feelings on it are that if you need someone else to hold your hand while you play, you might be playing the wrong game. Prime time hours of EST are topping at almost 80 players now, the offhours imms are there and just as responsive as imms during the day. (Sure it may take longer and you -could- have some bad timing, imms aren't sitting and waiting for your beckoning.)

Already you were quite defensive about Immortals not being at beck and call of the players even when no one has said anything about Imm response at the time.

I am also stressing that Armageddon is a harsh place that isn't set up so we can all have a cozy rp session, catered to the player and packaged so it doesn't offend.

I think you're getting a bit mixed up, Zalanthas is ICly a harsh world. Armageddon, which is the Mud, does not have to be OOCly harsh. All I was talking about is coordinating players, not turning it into Happyfunland, where templars hug commoners on the street and kiss their sores because they all belong to some off-peak players club.

As I said before, telling us that Zalanthas is an ICly harsh world pointless, I didn't see anyone crying about how his character couldn't find free lunches.

I am convinced that you are feeling very isolated as an individual Ronberk. I don't think your going to be happy with any soloutions proposed unless someone here says, "Yes, you are absolutely correct and we better get to work soon on coordinating these players on off-peak hours so they won't feel like the red-headed stepchildren of Armageddon."

I'm really sorry you feel this way because I've made only a total of fourth posts (including this one) to this thread.

The initial posting stating my position.

A reply to Petra.

The third where I tried to make my position clearer because I was afraid I was being misintepreted.

And this fourth one, a reply to a post that is clearly slandering me.

Suddenly I'm a stubborn, isolated individual that refuses to listen to other alternatives? I am reading the suggestions, I haven't been thumbing down what everone else has said. I haven't even disagreed with anyone's ideas yet.

[Bhagharva]

I'm not mentioning solo rp because I don't believe that has anything to do with hand holding while playing. you can be in a clan of 20 players and still be a individual that cannot take initiative and spark up interesting rp with whoever you can find to interact with. (Notice I did not say each and every person in game.) I really mean, whoever your PC can find to interact with that your PC feels is worthy of attention.

I stated clearly that the feelings I have are personal. They do not reflect the rest of the staff.  I have also stated that I am not directing any ire at you personally. I also stated that I DO NOT THINK this is about players whining that immortals are not doing enough. So please give up that argument.

Bhagharva, whatever your original intentions were, you misrepresented them severely in your first posting to this thread. Nobody was talking about newbies, handholding, immortal intervention or turning Zalanthas into carebear-world before you came along with your first posting saying:

That is why I brought it up. I interpreted my own thoughts into this discussion. Which is ok from what I am told. I didn't misrepresent anything. I am saying it again, newbies are an important part of this discussion. Handholding is an issue as well. You want a soloution right?


Player initiative and a drive to make a less crowded environment more fun are my suggestions.  I disagree with your soloution and I DO think that the majority of the problem here is not a lack of coordination but a lack of initiative of the players, who consider this an issue. In the time you spent writing these posts you could have been playing and recruiting more to play.