D-elf magicker stuff

[Quirk]

Sheesh, calm down people.

If they posted to say "No more templars are being accepted at this time", I doubt anyone would complain. You'd keep your exciting Templar concept for a time when it would be accepted.

Sometimes there have to be limits on things. If that limit is reached and a temporary restriction has to be imposed on new characters of that type being created, so be it. No-one said this state of affairs would be permanent. No-one said you can't use your karma to make a d-elf, or to make a magicker - they're just asking you not to combine the two.

It's no worse than being told that you can't join a clan you really really like because there are too many people in it already and it would be unbalancing.

Quirk

[Forest Junkie]

Sheesh, calm down people.

That's really all you needed to say.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm confused.

It seemed to me like Bhagharva was simply saying that he was putting his foot down on magickers in ATV and SLK specifically.

[Callisto]

if you know a better way to cull the tide of lone, magicker, desert-elves feel free to post, as I think any helpful feedback is helpful.

Well, this might be some crazy out of the box thinking, but how about making use of the standard application process already in place? Seems to me if there was a little more time invested into the standard application process, not to mention a more critical eye given to any karma level application, you would solve the problem on a broader scale and lessen the work load in the long run.

Of course, maybe I'm completely off the wall and adding another special application process (and no matter how you word it, this IS a special application process, since it is a step away from the standard application process) would make the game a hundred times more balanced and efficient, but I'm guessing it will wind up just like the other special application process, where you often wait weeks before you hear back on your application, if you hear back at all.

What could be an extra four or five minuets in the standard application process will turn into e-mail ping pong that wastes far more time, something I'm sure is in limited supply when it comes to both staff and players. If you see too many desert elf magickers in game, simply reject them in the regular application process until the numbers come back down.

I can't imagine most people would have a problem seeing a rejection notice such as "We've got too many mul sorcerers in game at the moment, please try again in a week or two. Why not try something else for a while?"

The solution doesn't always have to be complicated.

Just an idea.

[Anonymous]

I'll preface this by acknowledging that this is a game supported by an entirely volunteer staff.  They are not at our beck and call.  I understand this.

My frustration with this change comes from the fact that I've experienced some incidents where my emailed correspondence was either not responded to for upwards of a week or was not responded to at all.  That's fine, considering what I said to begin with.  I've never gotten angry and I don't have a sense of entitlement about how the staff should spend their time.

But the reciprocal is also true.  I'm less than thrilled about the possible prospect of a request to play a Desert Elf magicker (which I haven't in about 2 years now) languishing in someone's inbox while I wait.

Can you app for a desert elf magicker while currently playing a PC, similar to the regular Special App process?

[EvilRoeSlade]

It seems odd to me that Sanvean brought the issue about the high-end karma scale to the players for deliberation, and then we get this thrust on us seemingly out of the blue.

I have no personal investment in this change.  However, it seems like a poor and ill thought out solution leading us down a very strange road.

The staff posting on this forum have cited muls and half-giants as an example of roles that would harm the game if they were over represented.  Muls and half-giants have never been exceedingly popular roles (especially since muls went from karma 2 to karma 7), and yet there is nothing stopping an overwhelming influx of them.  It could happen in a week, or a month.  Would we then have to make half-giants and muls special application only?  I have this funny notion that there are more players with desert elf karma than without.  If everbody started playing desert elves, would they become special application as well?

This check put in place for desert elf magickers only reveals the true flaw in the karma system:  There is no check for anything else.  Eventually we must either abolish karma entirely and make all karma roles into special application only roles (which is completely unrealistic in our current situation, because the special application system barely even works as far as I'm concerned) or come up with a better solution.  Incidently, Callisto's proposition would be excellent, and it is worth repeating.  Don't let individual players play the same karma-required class and race over and over again, and don't let anymore karma-required classes and races into the game when there are already too many.  There is absolutely nothing stopping you.

When I attempt to analyze this problem on a broader scale, I invariably come to one conclusion.  Karma is awarded too freely.  It must be given not merely to people who RP well, and can be trusted not to abuse their karma, but with people who can control themselves.

Let me explain myself, using the desert elf magicker situation to help me.  I never noticed that there is a massive desert elf magicker influx, but for the sake of this discussion I'll assume that there currently is.  Why do you ask, has  this taken place?  For the same reason that there are people hogging the sorceror and psionicist slots.  They want power.  They want to take the stupid dwarven warriors and crush them under their heel, they want to look templars in the eye and know that they can raise hell if thats what it comes down to.  People don't get their kicks out of playing a snivelling slave.  They get it from being the most dangerous being on this side of the Shield Wall.

This is why the problem isn't with desert elf merchants, or human magickers.  The typical ordinary magicker can never survive in the wastes until they've progressed to the point where they can wantonly slay anybody they come across.  But a desert elf magicker can.  More importantly, far more importantly actually, a desert elf magicker has a tribe, which means that they have a group of people that can protect them and benefit from spells that are obviously meant to be used in conjunction with people of other classes.  A normal magicker is never likely to use those spells, because their greatest disadvantage is that people hate them.  A desert elf magicker has effectively circumvented this most crippling factor.  I know this, because I've played desert elf magickers many, many times.

But of course, it isn't abusive to play a role simply because its the one you prefer, is it?  I reject this notion, and say that it very definitely is.  I know without a doubt why the glut has happened in the realm of desert elf magickers.  Its because people in the mid karma range are selecting the most powerful race/class combination available to them with every character.  It no longer has anything to do with role-play preference.  Role-play preference is a wooden shield concealing the true purpose of this trend.  Power, of course. It seems odd to me that Sanvean brought the issue about the high-end karma scale to the players for deliberation, and then we get this thrust on us seemingly out of the blue.

I have no personal investment in this change.  However, it seems like a poor and ill thought out solution leading us down a very strange road.

Here's what I'm trying to say.  The staff posting on this forum have cited muls and half-giants as an example of roles that would harm the game if they were over represented.  Muls and half-giants have never been exceedingly popular roles (especially since muls went from karma 2 to karma 7), and yet there is nothing stopping everybody who was playing desert elf whirans and krathians to suddenly start say... playing half-giants.  Would we then have to make half-giants special application only?

I have this funny notion that there are more players with desert elf karma than without.  If everbody started playing desert elves, would they become special application as well?

This check for desert elf magickers only reveals the true flaw in the karma system:  There is no check for anything else.

Eventually we must either abolish karma entirely and make all karma roles into special application only roles (which is completely unrealistic in our current situation, because the special application system barely even works as far as I'm concerned) or come up with a better solution.  Incidently, Callisto's proposition would be excellent.

However, when I attempt to analyze this problem on a broader scale, I invariably come to one conclusion.  Karma is awarded too freely.  It must be given not merely to people who RP well, and can be trusted not to abuse their karma, but with people who can control themselves.

Let me explain myself, using the desert elf magicker situation to help me.  I never noticed that there is a massive desert elf magicker influx, but for the sake of this discussion I'll assume that there is.  Why do you ask, has  this taken place?  For the same reason that there are people hogging the sorceror and psionicist slots.  They want power.  They want to take a stupid dwarven warrior and crush them under their heel, they want to look a templar in the eye and know that they can raise hell if thats what it comes down to.  People don't get their kicks out of playing a snivelling slave.  They get it from being the dangerous critter in the wastes.

This is why the problem isn't with desert elf merchants, or human magickers.  The typical ordinary magicker can never survive in the wastes until they've progressed to the point where they can wantonly slay anybody they come across.  But a desert elf magicker can.  More importantly, far more importantly actually, a desert elf magicker has a tribe, which means that they have a group of people that can protect them and benefit from spells that are obviously meant to be used in conjunction with people of other classes.  A normal magicker is never likely to use those spells, because their greatest disadvantage is that people hate them.  A desert elf magicker has effectively circumvented this most crippling factor.  I know this, because I've played desert elf magickers many, many times.

But of course, it isn't abusive to play a role simply because its the one you prefer, is it?  I reject this notion, and say that it very definitely is.  I know without a doubt why the glut has happened in the realm of desert elf magickers.  Its because people in the mid karma range are selecting the most powerful race/class combination available to them with every character.  It no longer has anything to do with role-play preference.  Role-play preference is a wooden shield concealing the true purpose of this trend.  Power, of course.

This power has to be regulated, and it can't be left in the hands of the players, who have the least to benefit from such regulation.  It can't be left in the hands of special application unless there are major reforms to the special application process.  All that leaves is the staff, so I beseech you, take a good look at Callisto's post and give it some thought.

[jhunter]

Not true that everyone wants to play the most potentially powerful thing they have the karma to play, I haven't even used the most powerful thing my karma will allow me to, having chosen to work on other things that I have an idea for that I haven't gotten to try yet.

[SpyGuy]

I tend to agree with EvilRoeSlade that yes, this very well could be a case of min/maxing characters to get the most benedit.  Not many people to my knowledge play dwarven merchants or pickpockets, not because those concepts are in any way bad but the dwarven stat configuration (as well as some stereotypes) fit dwarves into a warrior role.

I also think there are good IC reasons for this on the staff's part.  D-Elves to my knowledge aren't any more magic oriented than humans or city elves.  But when all the desert elves your PC encounters turn out to be magickers then it starts to change, at least in the PCs mind, the nature of D-Elves.

Its not a hard and fast rule but PC populations should in some ways reflect V-NPC populations.  I don't mean percentages but there needs to be fewer nobles/templars than commoners.  Just the same way, in any given D-elf tribe there should ideally be fewer magickers than normals.

If D-elf magickers aren't hated in their tribe, are more powerful then a normal human magicker due to their race and have fewer PCs to balance them out with normals then it just skews the IC perceptions of people interacting with D-elves.  VNPCs are a part of it, but PCs are the ones you interact with 99% of the time.

[John]

I don't like being forced into the extra control because of the actions of others

So how is an overpopulation going to be dealt with? It's the result of everyone. So it isn't just your actions that have caused it, but by the actions of many people as a group. The impression I've gotten is that some people are assuming it's the same people constantly playing D-Elf Magickers. This may or may not be the truth. It's quite possible people are playing many characters inbetween their D-Elf Magickers, but it's a large group of people over a period of time that is resulting in their being in a large population of D-Elves. In this instance, I'd say there is enough people with D-Elf Magicker Karma to have this happen to them.

For example, let's say over a period of 4 months there are 20 people who at one point in time, play a D-Elf Magicker. And let's say each person has 3 characters in those 3months. At one time there are only 9 people in a clan.

In one month you have 3 people who play a D-Elf magicker with the other 4 people playing various roles. The rest of the 3 D-Elf positions are made up by other people.

The next month everyone dies. A new 3 people play D-Elf magickers while the first 3 go onto other roles. Next month the same thing happens.

The entire time you have people who are showing restraint on the roles they play. And no-one can point a finger at any of them and say they're powergaming a particular role. But the cumulative effect is the clan is primarily magickers.

Then the Imms begin controlling how many D-Elf magickers exist at 1 time. If they don't do it via "special app" then they just knock your D-Elf Magicker normal app back because of the actions of other people (in this instance because there are too many in the clan). Still an extra control because of the actions of other people.

Me, I just don't like the extra hassle of special apping.  Anyone who says it's not much of a hassle is a liar.

Wow. Talk about a false generalisation. I've responded to advertised roles on the GDB twice. Each time the process was very quick.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't like being forced into the extra control because of the actions of others, that is my point of responding to it...it's like going to jail because someone else shot somebody...is it right to punish those who obviously didn't do it?

That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

I've responded to advertised roles on the GDB twice. Each time the process was very quick.

That's not a special application.

The point that I hope I have made is that there are less heavy-handed measures of control that are in the end better solutions.  I've suggested them, and so have others.  A solution that relies on a flawed system is inherently a flawed solution.

[Callisto]

Wow. Talk about a false generalisation. I've responded to advertised roles on the GDB twice. Each time the process was very quick.

You're taking it the wrong way.

When you send in a special application for a mul warrior, you're going to wait an awful long time just to get a response, because special applications are a very low priority.

When you respond to someone looking for a person to play the next Dr. X. in Clan X, you're going to get special treatment because it is a role that needs to be filled in a timely manner.

[spawnloser]

First thing's first.

Desert elves are a singular clan.  Like House Oash, or the Byn.

No, there are lots of tribes, so lots of clans.

...so what about that person that during their last role got enough karma to play a desert elf rukkian/vivaduan and wants to try it all out?  All of a sudden, the staff thinks they are trustworthy to play these roles, but now the person can't...they have to special app it, basically.  Send in an email to someone that isn't looking for emails about this specificially but has other things to do...the person just lost their character, and if they're like me, they want to submit their next RIGHT NOW so they can get back to playing as soon as possible.  Now the person has to wait a few days...waiting for someone to say it is okay to play Armageddon.  That just seems a bit restrictive to me.

[John]

When you send in a special application for a mul warrior, you're going to wait an awful long time just to get a response, because special applications are a very low priority.

When you respond to someone looking for a person to play the next Dr. X. in Clan X, you're going to get special treatment because it is a role that needs to be filled in a timely manner.

Yes, "special apping" through Naephet does take longer because he has a lot more traffic for "special apps" then clan-specific Imms do. He also has to do more research and take more into account then a clan-specific Imm. If I were to "special app" a mul warrior slave for Borsail I doubt it would take a long time for me to get my app approved because I would be e-mailing it to the Borsail-Imm (who has a lot lower traffic then Naephet does).

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes, "special apping" through Naephet does take longer because he has a lot more traffic for "special apps" then clan-specific Imms do. He also has to do more research and take more into account then a clan-specific Imm. If I were to "special app" a mul warrior slave for Borsail I doubt it would take a long time for me to get my app approved because I would be e-mailing it to the Borsail-Imm (who has a lot lower traffic then Naephet does).

And that would be inappropriate.

From my experience with the system, you'd have to E-mail the Borsail immortal for permission to play in the clan, and Naephet for permission to play a mul.

Once I E-mailed Tlaloc, asking to play a mul in his clan.  He replied that although it would be acceptable, I didn't have enough Karma to play a mul (though I had the option on my account).  This was during the big conversion where muls stopped being karma 2 and began being karma 7.  I E-mailed the account, explained my situation, and asked if it was okay for me to continue using the mul option on my account even though it was no longer within my karma range.  They said yes, and I was happy.

My case however, would be an exception because it occured during the karma change and because I already had the option, I just needed permission to use it.  Everybody else would have to go through Naephet.

[John]

From my experience with the system, you'd have to E-mail the Borsail immortal for permission to play in the clan, and Naephet for permission to play a mul.

I had assumed you meant the person already had mul Karma. While you would need to send a special app to Naephet about a mul warrior without having the Karma for it. That isn't the situation in this case. We're talking about people who already have magicker and d-elf Karma.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Just responding to your post that made your previous one appear as if it was talking about something completely different.

Okay, I can dig that.

But in the end all it means is that special applications for karma options are sent to Naephet, and ones for clans are sent to the appropriate immortal.  Which isn't the point.

The point is that there are better options than what is happening.

[John]

The point is that there are better options than what is happening.

*re-reads the entire thread again*

Well, this might be some crazy out of the box thinking, but how about making use of the standard application process already in place? Seems to me if there was a little more time invested into the standard application process, not to mention a more critical eye given to any karma level application, you would solve the problem on a broader scale and lessen the work load in the long run.

I'm not too sure I like it. AFAIK 1 Imm doesn't approve all of X type app unless it's a special case (Naephet special app or Clan special app). So a particular Imm might not know how many Magicker D-Elves are active in the world. Only someone whose main responsibility is D-Elves would know. And AFAIK they don't necessarily go through normal apps, so they wouldn't know if a magicker D-Elf is in the app process unless someone told them, which might take a fair bit longer then What Gesht suggested.

However if the app process could be changed so certain Imms cover certain roles (such as magickers are mainly approved by Imms X and Y whereas human merchants can be approved by anyone) then I think Callisto's suggestion would be completely reasonable. And I don't know, it might work like that. The only people who know for sure are the Imms

Eventually we must either abolish karma entirely and make all karma roles into special application only roles (which is completely unrealistic in our current situation, because the special application system barely even works as far as I'm concerned) or come up with a better solution.

I don't think the core concept behind Karma needs to be abolished, but I think it's limitations are being shown as the playerbase gets older.* I think a reworking of the Karma system would be good, to think of ways to make up for the limitations the current system has (but I think that's getting a fair bit off topic too).

* as in how long they've played, not their age

[Carnage]

I'm not too sure I like it. AFAIK 1 Imm doesn't approve all of X type app unless it's a special case (Naephet special app or Clan special app). So a particular Imm might not know how many Magicker D-Elves are active in the world. Only someone whose main responsibility is D-Elves would know. And AFAIK they don't necessarily go through normal apps, so they wouldn't know if a magicker D-Elf is in the app process unless someone told them, which might take a fair bit longer then What Gesht suggested.

How about communications?

They -do- have an entire message board to themselves.

[Lazloth]

I disagree considerably with this change and feel it reflects a portent of things to come.  Can we expect a day when every non human warrior/ranger will require a preliminary email of approval?  Presumably Bhag and Myrixt have the ability to reject applications on the queue, assuming there is a need to thin the waiting pool.

While I don't think you'll find anyone that doesn't appreciate the level of effort that any immortal puts into this game, I have to assume that turn-around on emails is not numero-uno in priority.  IMHO, if it's the application process that's broken, address it there.

[Angela Christine]

I can definately see how desert elf mages are more powerful than either regular elves or regular mages.  The combo isn't additive, it's more like multiplication or exponents.    The desert elf race basically strips away the weaknessess (aka balancing factors) of mages.  They can call themselves shamen, and mostly the people they run into (other desert elves) are ok with it.  Their buddies will even work with them, using spells co-operatively, something other races hardly ever get to do.  While non-elves are never happy to see an elf, it is easier for an elf mage to go undetected, because nobody thinks an elf being alone and on foot in the wilderness is anything odd; yes, I've seen people accused of being mages simply because they were alone and on foot outside the cities.  I can see making d-elf mages more like karma 5-7, except that would mean that elves would be THREE races rather than one, and that would be silly.


AC

[Lazloth]

I can see making d-elf mages more like karma 5-7, except that would mean that elves would be THREE races rather than one, and that would be silly.

*shrug*

Karma required to play:  (race + class) not (max(race, class)).

[Gilvar]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7633

I recommend this post being locked *or you all just stopping of your volition) as the intial topic has been clarified. D-elf magickers are allowed, just not in the roles Bhag is offering.

[Bogre]

I'm guessing its the overabundance issue.

The overabundance issue is a definite, I'm betting.

I will bet there are only 2-3 active delf rangers around Tuluk, 1 or 2 active warriors, and 4-6 active magickers.

Which is kind of odd.