dwarven focus

[theebie]

hi

i woud really like to know more 'bout dwarven focus.

for example:
some dwarf set his focus to protect a certain person, because he
loves her, and then he finds out that she's a murderer or something.

or he strives to accomplish something for a decade, and then finds
out that its a really silly thing, or that its impossible

or how 'bout he finds something new, that he'd like to fulfill even more?

or ... i bet there are lots of more situations


---theebie---

[Quirk]

hi

i woud really like to know more 'bout dwarven focus.

for example:
some dwarf set his focus to protect a certain person, because he
loves her, and then he finds out that she's a murderer or something.

That would be unlikely to change the dwarf's focus. Dwarves are really single-mindedly obsessive. Tiny little things like laws and morals aren't going to get in the way of their focus.

or he strives to accomplish something for a decade, and then finds
out that its a really silly thing, or that its impossible

The focus turning out to be really silly probably won't deter him, if it's still accomplishable. He's spent so long focusing on it that it would be unthinkable not to complete it. Social conventions aren't going to get in the way of the focus.

The focus being found impossible to complete is likely to plunge him into acute depression for a brief while as he reorients himself to a new focus. This new focus is likely to be related to the old focus, but may not be.

or how 'bout he finds something new, that he'd like to fulfill even more?

A dwarf wouldn't just change foci (speaking of a "aim" or "purpose" focus) because he found a new one he liked better. If the focus was achieved or was unachievable, the dwarf might then change his focus, but he would not leave a focus unresolved. It would be undwarven.

I suggest reading, if you haven't already:
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/focus.html
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/morefocus.html

Hope that helps.

Quirk

[EvilRoeSlade]

hi

i woud really like to know more 'bout dwarven focus.

Read the link that Quirk gave you.

some dwarf set his focus to protect a certain person, because he loves her, and then he finds out that she's a murderer or something.

On Zalanthas, a lot more people must kill to survive than you might think.  Maybe a dwarf would be bothered if he found out his she-dwarf was a killer, and maybe not.  Probably not.

Would it be enough to cause him to shift his focus?  That depends on the dwarf, but it should be noted that dwarves don't change their mind about their focus often, and probably not ever.  The dwarven focus however, is a function of a dwarf's personality, upbringing, background, and environment.  A dwarf whose parents are running a family business is more likely to have a focus positively affecting that business.  A dwarf who was raised as a slave is more likely to have a focus to serve their master.

Going back to your original question, the dwarf is more likely than not to have already known his she-dwarf was a murderer, and thus loves her in spite or because of it.  A dwarf doesn't do anything half-assed, and they probably won't declare their love for somebody if they don't have comprehensive knowledge of that person.  If the dwarf didn't know she was a murderer, then you'd have to examine why the dwarf was in love with her in the first place.  If it was because she was a vicious and brutal bitch, then it probably wouldn't change anything.  If it was because he believed her to be a paragon of virtue and righteousness, then he might decide that his focus was to protect a woman that only existed in his imagination, and thus must turn to a different path.  Or maybe he'll conceal the evidence and try to forget about his she-dwarf's darker side.  Dwarves can be a lot like humans... sometimes.

or he strives to accomplish something for a decade, and then finds out that its a really silly thing, or that its impossible

It wouldn't take a decade to find out her focus was silly.  More likely, the dwarf would have known her focus was silly at the start and continue on -because- of that fact, not despite it.  Silly dwarves have silly foci, just like violent dwarves have dangerous foci.

To address your other concern.  Some dwarves won't admit the impossible.  Others will work around it.  If a dwarf's focus is to build a tavern in Red Storm, and Red Storm gets swallowed up in the silt sea, then maybe she'll decide to build a tavern in Allanak.

I think that it is possible for a dwarf to shift her focus, but this is not common, and the shift is usually only done through many years of gradual contemplation.  Even so, a dwarves shift in focus will invariably simply be a variation of their old focus.

or how 'bout he finds something new, that he'd like to fulfill even more?

That will only happen after a dwarf has completed her other focus.

[Tlaloc]

Would it be enough to cause him to shift his focus? That depends on the dwarf, but it should be noted that dwarves don't change their mind about their focus often, and probably not ever.

I would say that dwarves cannot change thier focus. That is why its a focus. Once you pick it, thats it.

[grog]

Think about the most obsessed and driven man, or woman, that you've ever met.  Now picture somebody ten times more obsessed and driven, who has no hair, and enough muscles to make any bodybuilder envious.  Everything is related to his focus, and everything he does will be somehow related to it, or he'll feel it's a useless action.   Your friends are those that help you reach your focus, your enemies are those who hinder you.  Family is only a possibility if it is included in or would help a foci, your children, even if you love them, are tools to help you complete your foci, you likely had them so they could take over for you if you died before completing it.

[John]

some dwarf set his focus to protect a certain person, because he loves her, and then he finds out that she's a murderer or something.

The most hindrance it would provide would be for the dwarf to change her to no longer be a murderer so that he may protect her better.

or he strives to accomplish something for a decade, and then finds out that its a really silly thing, or that its impossible

Would you say that something you had worked towards for the last 10 years is silly? Probably not. And a dwarf definitely won't. While you might realise it's impossible, the dwarf will continue to believe fulfilling this dream is the reason he's alive.

or how 'bout he finds something new, that he'd like to fulfill even more?

That is impossible until he finishes his focus.

Your friends are those that help you reach your focus, your enemies are those who hinder you. Family is only a possibility if it is included in or would help a foci, your children, even if you love them, are tools to help you complete your foci, you likely had them so they could take over for you if you died before completing it.

Actually, the docs say that it depends on the dwarf as to how manipulative he is in that area. That's one extreme a dwarf can be, but he doesn't have to use everyone to fulfill his focus (according to the docs).

[Gorobei]

I have a question about dwarves, myself.  When do dwarves develop their focus?

We hear about dwarves who want to build the biggest house, or take over Allanak, but how would they gain these foci?  Wouldn't they have something that preceded it, and ignore any urge to do these things?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I would say that dwarves cannot change thier focus. That is why its a focus. Once you pick it, thats it.

I had a dwarf whose focus shifted.  Apparently they can.  I'm not trying to be snide or arrogant, but I've role-played my character that way in the past, and I stand by what I did.

Here's the story.  Dwarf-O the dwarf wanted to form a mercenary company.  He joined a Merchant House that was reputed to have an incompetent guard force, hoping to prove his worth and loyalty for many years and then ask to branch off and be given support to form a mercenary company that would support and be patronized heavily or perhaps totally by that Merchant House.  However, eventually Dwarf-O found out that the merchant he was working for was planning on leaving the Merchant House to form a Noble House!  That was a turn of events he hadn't anticipated.  Now, he could have left the Merchant House and be forced to start all over again without any support, and he could have simply stayed with the Merchant House and also have to start over (since knowledge of his performance would be leaving with the merchant).  But neither of those options made any sense to him.  Instead he reasoned that this new Noble House would need a guard force, and his focus shifted to be the one to form and command it.  A guard force for a noble house isn't the same as a mercenary company, but it is still a force full of warriors, and he didn't want to throw away the opportunity and still get eventually the same thing.  I'll note that he didn't have a particularly mercenary mindset.  His main concern was combat, which he lived and breathed.  The matter of who paid him (or indeed if anybody paid him) was a trivial concern.

I'll give another example, this one being imaginary.  Suppose you have a dwarven artist who wants to paint the best portrait in the world.  She doesn't care that nobody else can appreciate a 3-D portrait of mekillot shit, because those fools obviously don't have the level of artistic appreciation that she does.  But when she finally creates the beta version of her 3-D portrait (complete with olfactory and auditory stimuli!) she realizes that it wasn't such a great idea after all.  It happens with artists.  I've gotten what I thought were great ideas for short stories, written them out, and then promptly discarded them as crap.  Sometimes things just sound better in your head than they are in real life.  So if this dwarf beholds her beta painting and realizes that she'd rather create a painting of two dwarves kanking it with Tektolnes, does she have to keep going and paint all the revised editions (which she'd have to if she wanted to complete her focus as she originally envisioned it), or can she ditch the idea and go on to her new idea for her painting?  I think a dwarf can start out with a general idea of their focus and get a more specific idea as time goes on.  So too can they revert back to their general idea if their specific interpretation becomes unworkable or unappealing.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I have a question about dwarves, myself.  When do dwarves develop their focus?

We hear about dwarves who want to build the biggest house, or take over Allanak, but how would they gain these foci?  Wouldn't they have something that preceded it, and ignore any urge to do these things?

I have two theories of this, and I consider them both valid.

The first theory is that dwarves ALWAYS have a focus.  From the day they are born.  A dwarf's first focus might be "get the hell out of this moist, squishy area and then start bawling at the top of my lungs."  Check.  Their second focus might be "eat something."  Check.  Followed by "learn to walk like those gargantuan, fuzzy-looking beings are doing."  Check.  And then "learn how to talk."

The second is that a dwarf goes through a pre-focus period of life, in which they first develop physically and mentally, and then begin to observe the area around them.  During this early stage of life, the dwarf is probably considered a child and an inferior by all the dwarves in his community.  Then, once she learns enough about her environment and about herself to decide upon a focus, she goes with it and doesn't look back.  Presto-chango, another adult has entered the community.

[grog]

It sounds more like your first dwarf had the focus of founding a group of warriors, and first he thought the only way would be mercs, when a better way (to form a group of warriors) came in, he took it.  

Same with the artist, she wants to do the best painting in the world, if she does something and doesn't like it, she is going to change it to something she does like, otherwise it wouldn't be the best painting in the world, would it?



There is a difference bewtween doing the best painting in the world, and doing the best painting of 3-D mek shit in the world, and in my opinion they would be too different foci.  (the 3-D mek shit would be fairly easy, because I don't imagine anybody else doing it, thus it's automatically the best)

And if your focus was to form a group of true mercanaries, beholden to no master but 'sid, then it would have been wrong to lower yourself to guards.   Unless of course you were planning on skipping out with a bunch of soldiers trained on noble coin, but beholden to you.

edit
And Evilroeslade basically put down my opinion on dwarf children.  They are always going to be more focused then human children, because there is a genetic tendency to be obessed.  But a long-term life goal, most likely wouldn't come about till after they reach a certain age.   And dwarves have a long childhood, by human standards.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It sounds more like your first dwarf had the focus of founding a group of warriors, and first he thought the only way would be mercs, when a better way (to form a group of warriors) came in, he took it.

I agree.  However, it says in the documentation that when a dwarf has a focus, she gets a very specific idea of what that focus is.  A dwarf who wants to create the best painting in the world will have a precise and exacting idea of what the best painting is, and won't be satisfied until the painting she creates fits her idea exactly.

What I'm trying to say is that I think that the specifics of a dwarf's focus can change even if the general idea can't.  I don't think a dwarf can have the focus to tame a mekillot one day, a focus to destroy Allanak the next day, and a completely different and totally unrelated focus the day after that.  But I think that the aforementioned dwarven artist can change her idea of what the best painting in the world looks like.  And a dwarf whose focus started out as a desire to build a tavern in Allanak might one day decide that what she really wants is just to build a tavern, and end up satisfied with a different location.  That latter example depends on the dwarf though, and why the dwarf wanted to build the tavern in the first place.  If she wanted to do it merely because Allanak was where she happened to live, then she might decide that its an irrelevent portion of her focus.  But if she wants it to be in Allanak because its going to be called Tektolnes' Tooth and will offer free drinks to Allanaki soldiers in order to bolster their spirit, well... that tavern damn well better be in Allanak.

There is a difference bewtween doing the best painting in the world, and doing the best painting of 3-D mek shit in the world, and in my opinion they would be too different foci.  (the 3-D mek shit would be fairly easy, because I don't imagine anybody else doing it, thus it's automatically the best)

A minor point I'm going to have to quibble on.  A dwarf whose wants to paint mek shit is NOT going to have an easy time of it... the dwarven focus is by definition never easy.  Even though it would theoretically be the best by default, the dwarf is still going to want it to be EXACTLY the way she has it in her bald little head.  If it isn't perfect according to her standards, then she scraps it and starts over.

That's why a dwarf can take a relatively simple task and then spend years trying to complete it.  If her focus is to find the perfect mate, then she won't just walk into a tavern, find some male dwarf enjoying his drink, and propose on the spot.  She'll probably decide on the best qualities her mate needs to have, hold some contest that tests all those qualities, bring the top five contesters into another city-state and hold the contest AGAIN, repeating herself until she's been to every petty village and tribal encampment on the face of Zalanthas.  

If her focus is simply to find a mate (not necessarily the perfect one, lets be realistic, he's probably already taken), then she might reverse the process.  Instead of trying to find who has the best qualities, she'll try instead to force herself to have the best qualities that she thinks a mate will desire.  She'll figure out what's likely to attract a mate and, well... You get the idea.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with everything the Salad has said thus far.

[grog]

I think we may disagree on the matter of degree.  But in general I agree with you.  I think that a dwarf can have a general focus, start a tavern, but when he decides his foci, he can also have an exact focus, start a tavern, in 'nak, that is more popular then the 'so and so' tavern.   A general focus dwarf would be willing to change the location, as he justs wants to have a tavern.     The exact focus dwarf would keep on trying for that exact tavern, till he died, or the tavern was done, and was more popular then so and so tavern.  

If her focus is simply to find a mate (not necessarily the perfect one, lets be realistic, he's probably already taken),

Why would that stop anybody?  :twisted:  A dwarf stalker, talk about scary, you KNOW they will do anything to get you.

[Gilvar]

(note I've never even played a dwarf, just my personal view)

Up until very recently I thought dwarves did not even know they had a focus. I didn't know they could choose, or refer to it as something all dwarves had in common. I thought they all just had this drive and urge that was not abnormal to them, so not worth categorizing with a term or needing further attention. Like their state of mind was just directed in one way and it would be considered normal, they probably wouldn't even know they are doing anything abnormal, or maybe not even realize they are driving in a certain direction. Sorta like a subconcious ambition towards a goal that comes off as a mix of their own unexplanable desire and instinct.

But that changed when I read a few things, and heard that alot of people actually develop their focuses and know fully well what it is and then take logical steps to achieving it. Like instead of having an unexplanable desire to build a tower to reach the sun, they might instead WANT to build this and it becomes their focus and single priority.

Eitherway its a neat concept to talk about.

[Angela Christine]

The focus isn't a want, it is a need, an adiction.  Pursuing the focus is like getting that next cigarette, if you were a nicotine addict.  You may be a good mom, but if you are broke and you only have enough money left for another pack of cigarettes or a carton of milk for your kid, then you'll get the cigarettes.  Doing things unrelated to your focus is like time spent not smoking, a little time between cigarettes is ok, but too long and it will drive you nuts.  That's my veiw of the focus.



If you really think the focus you selected is unplayable and you need to change it, I would suggest emailing the mud account first.  Explain what you want to do and why, before you do it, because suddenly changing your focus for no obvious reason is going to look weird.


First I'd look at the focus you have and see if you really do need to change it.  Even an asurd focus isn't necessarily unplayable.

Example:  Suppose your dwarf has the focus to become a Templar.  The chances of an adult dwarf becoming a Templar are extremely slim, personally I've never heard of a Dwarf or an adult becoming a Templar in Zalanthas (though there are non-human templars in DarkSun).  If he tells anyone he wants to be a templar, they are going to scoff at him and tell him he is crazy, but that doesn't matter to him.  OOCly you may realize that it is an impossible goal, but that doesn't mean it is an unplayable focus.  The focus is about the journey, not the acheivement.  A smoker will never have smoked "enough" cigarettes to be done, the goal isn't to finish smoking.  So perhaps your Templar wannabe joins the Byn, thinking this will teach him to fight, and give him the opportunity to do something heroic to get Tek's attention.  Eventually  he realizes that he will never get the recognition he needs as mere mercenary.  He saves his money for a few years to buy his way into the Tor Academy, a much more prestigious organization where he can learn elite fighting techniques and rub shoulders with the nobility.  Once he graduates he looks at his options: he did well in the academy, and now has the opportunity to join almost any organization.  He decides to join the militia, to learn more about Templars and get closer to Tek.  After a few years of that, he realized it isn't going to work, he will never come to Tek's attention that way, and the back-biting blue robes are too busy with their in-fighting to notice him, never mind the red or black robes.  What does he do next?

It is hard to quit the militia, if he does that he basically has to flee the city.  Will he try to do something incredibly heroic for the City freelance, or go north and try to become a northern templar?  Perhaps instead of quitting the militia, he will try to form or join a special ops team, one that does remarkable, dangerous things for the Highlord.  Or perhaps he tries to get onto the team that guards Tek's Tower, with the intent to work his way up to being part of Tek's personal bodyguard, save His life, and get Templarified.  Or he might try to infiltrate the criminal underground, and learn how to become a master criminal, with the intent of breaking into the Templar's quarter, climbing Tek's Tower, and breaking in to meet Tek and make his case.  He might even orchestrate a threat to the City or the Highlord, just so he can publicly foil it.  One route to reaching the goal closes down, so he looks for another way.

Is he ever going to get to be a Templar?  Probably not.  But the journey can still be fun for you, the player.


AC

[John]

For AC's example, the dwarf might decide to find another city that has Templars. You as a player know no such city exists, but the dwarf doesn't know that.

As a real in-game example (this happened quite a while ago so I doubt it's IC). I had a dwarf whose focus it was to become a soldier. I was unable to for X reason, so my dwarf figured he should go to Tuluk and join their militia. Just because something appears impossible, doesn't mean your dwarf thinks it is.

[Angela Christine]

For AC's example, the dwarf might decide to find another city that has Templars. You as a player know no such city exists, but the dwarf doesn't know that.

Exactly.  He might try to find the ruins of Stienal, reasoning that God-kings are hard to kill so there is an excelent chance that Stienal's God-king is still alive down there somewhere.  Rescue him, and he'd be sure to make you a templar!

Or he might have an epifiny and realize that the God-kings are sorcerers. (Ok, this would be a stretch).  So he tracks down a sorcerer with the intention of helping her build her own empire and becoming her first templar.

If what you want doesn't exist, then you may have to build it to get what you want.


AC

[Tlaloc]

I had a dwarf whose focus shifted. Apparently they can. I'm not trying to be snide or arrogant, but I've role-played my character that way in the past, and I stand by what I did.

Heh. Just because you did it, doesn't mean that its 'right'.

I think AC's post was pretty dead on. Yes, a dwarf can change how he approaches his focus throughout his life, but the focus, itself, will never, ever change. The focus is all the dwarf ever thinks about. They may never fullfill it - which is to actually be expected, on a player level, but during the course of they journey, the dwarf can do many amazing things, and wear many hats.

In my opinion, a dwarf changing his focus is like a person, IRL, suddenly deciding to change thir bloodtype from 0+, to AB-, or changing your eye or skin color. The focus of a dwarf is who they are. Ergo, it is not something that can be changed on a whim, or even slowly over time.

If you feel like you need to change your focus, please email the mud about it, first, heh. Honestly - I have no idea about the specifics of EvilRoeSlade's dwarf, and can't tell you if it was played well, or not. However: from what I understand, I would say that I think the dwarfs focus: "To start a mercenary company." met with failure, simply because he lost it - and joined up with a noble House, instead. As I think Grog mentioned earlier - unless your plan was to recruit your own mercs out of the House's pocket, this was a complete shift of focus.

I'll give another example, this one being imaginary. Suppose you have a dwarven artist who wants to paint the best portrait in the world. She doesn't care that nobody else can appreciate a 3-D portrait of mekillot shit, because those fools obviously don't have the level of artistic appreciation that she does. But when she finally creates the beta version of her 3-D portrait (complete with olfactory and auditory stimuli!) she realizes that it wasn't such a great idea after all. It happens with artists.

I'm not certain I fully understood this part, but I'll try and answer it as best as I can:

I think this situation would be an impossibility for a dwarf. This is why:

Upon settling on her focus (paint the best portrait in the world), the dwarf will settle for various variables, and will decide what she believes equals the "best portrait in the whole world." In this case, the dwarf decided at some point that a 3-D picture of mekillot shit would be the greatest portrait in the whole world.

Said dwarf will now embark down the path of trying to resolve thier focus. The following things can happen:

1) The dwarf will do everything she can to make a 'perfect 3-D portrait of Mek Shit'. If she completes the portrait the following can happen:

A:It does not meet her aesthetic tastes (or whatever requirements there are for the focus - maybe it has to meet the tastes of others, the nobility, a certain Fale with a fear of MekShit, etc), and thus, fails to be 'perfect'. In this instance, she goes back to step 1). This is the most common outcome.

B: It meets her aesthetic tastes, and thus resolves her focus. She now chooses a new focus. Move on to step 2). This is the most rare outcome.

2) The dwarf completes the portrait, and has resolved her focus. She now chooses a new focus (which is usually even harder than the first - in this case: make an even better portrait. At this stage, a new aesthetic could be chosen).

[Quirk]

Remember to make the distinction between the three focus types: maintenance, purpose and aim. Maintenance foci may well change if there is reason for it. Purpose foci may change if superseded by a higher-priority call to a maintenance focus. Aim foci are only likely to change if the dwarf succeeds or the focus becomes impossible (such as a focus to meet a particular person on the other side of the world which is foiled by that person turning out to be dead).

This is all covered in the docs headed "More On The Dwarven Focus" which I linked to earlier.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

Yes, a dwarf can change how he approaches his focus throughout his life, but the focus, itself, will never, ever change. The focus is all the dwarf ever thinks about.

Okay.

I laid out my ideas on the assumption that a dwarf has a focus for a reason, and that reason is based on who the dwarf is.  It makes perfect sense.  A dwarven slave isn't likely to have a focus to start her own business, more likely her focus will revolve around her master, her duties, or the terms of her slavery.

But suppose her reasoning fails to make sense?  If a slaves master is killed, then the slaves focus to protect her master will become obsolete.  Or she realizes that part of the focus she outlined before wasn't as important to her as she thought?  Perhaps it wasn't even really a part of her focus at all, but she never gave it enough thought until a pivotal moment.  I'll go back to the example relating to my character.  His focus was to form a mercenary company, but eventually he realized that it didn't matter if they were mercenaries or not.  In a sense, his focus was never to form a mercenary company.  He just assumed it was until he realized it wasn't.

I'm talking about a dwarf that had no background or personality relating to being a mercenary.  He assumed his focus was to form a mercenary company, but then he found out that a different organization of warriors would also suit him.  His overwhelming desire wasn't to be a mercenary, it was to be the guy on top.

In my opinion, a dwarf changing his focus is like a person, IRL, suddenly deciding to change thir bloodtype from 0+, to AB-, or changing your eye or skin color. The focus of a dwarf is who they are. Ergo, it is not something that can be changed on a whim, or even slowly over time.

I'm not arguing that dwarves should be able to change their focus on a whim.  Don't make it sound like I am.

1) The dwarf will do everything she can to make a 'perfect 3-D portrait of Mek Shit'. If she completes the portrait the following can happen:

A:It does not meet her aesthetic tastes (or whatever requirements there are for the focus - maybe it has to meet the tastes of others, the nobility, a certain Fale with a fear of MekShit, etc), and thus, fails to be 'perfect'. In this instance, she goes back to step 1). This is the most common outcome.

I think that's what I was arguing for, the dwarf going back to step one (deciding what the best painting in the world would be like).  The dwarf's focus is still to paint the best painting in the world, but now she decides that the best painting in the world is totally different from the way she previously imagined it to be, and she simply didn't realize it until she actually saw the painting.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'll take credit for the above post.

I got disconnected right when I hit enter.

[Angela Christine]

Still, I think if the focus alters from what is listed as your focus in the character application, then it is worthwhile to drop a note to the mud.  If your background says your focus is to lead a mercenary company, and your dwarf is doing something that seems contrary to that, it could confuse any staff watching you in the future.  Confusing the staff is bad.  So you ask to have your background changed  or added to so that it reflects your "real" focus.

AC

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well of course, I'd always advocate communication with the staff.  All I'm arguing is that under limited circumstances, a dwarven focus might shift somewhat, but only under circumstances in which it would make sense.