Getting Tired

[SpyGuy]

I was thinking about how little PCs actually sleep in the game.  Now I know people sleep and rest virtually when we log out, but some people go for days on end without sleep (play for 6 hours and its already been 4 IC days).  Some people are really good about this, some people arent.  But theres no coded reason to sit your ass down and rest for a few hours.

Heres my solution:

Have a "sleep timer" alot like we have hunger or thirst timers.  After a day or two IC, have the character start getting tired.  Give a few warning messages, just like with hunger and thirst, until the characters -MAX- vigor and stun begin to drop with exhaustion.  Have them drop substantially until a character either finds a safe place to rest or falls unconcious.  Depending on how exhausted the character was I think they should just have to sleep for an hour or two if they were just starting to get tired, and have to sleep substantially more to recover Vigor and Stun if they let themselves get exhausted.  Maybe sitting or resting should stop the timer, but they're no substitute for actual sleep IMO.

Also I think this would be a great way to add items like coffee, strong tea and certain types of spice that would lower your exhaustion level much like sleep would. (I dont know what ICly grows on Zalanthas, I'm putting out ideas here not scouring the docs to find that coffee doesnt exist)

I also think the timer should reset upon quitting, though this could be abused it also would suck royally to log back in and have to sleep right away.  But I don't know if thats codeable and also you cant assume you were always just getting up from a virtual rest.

I see this as being as annoying as hunger or thirst.  If you really need to stay awake buy some spice or coffee.  But for most characters it gives them a coded reason to nap in the public dorms.  It also gives thieves a nice oppurtunity to make the dorms places like they would be in RL, thief central   :twisted: .  Look at any homeless shelter, those poor guys get beat up and have their stuff taken all the time.

Just an idea,

[moab]

I love this idea.  Good suggestion!
I'm guilty of this, I have to say and the code enforcement wouldn't be unlike that which already exists for thirst and hunger.

[Bestatte]

Imagine this though: You're out with your clan on an expedition to a "Dangerous Place" [tm].

It took you a day to get there, after spending the day before gearing up and getting supplies. Right in the middle of battle, YOU NEED TO SLEEP!

If you're thirsty, you can easily take a quick tug on your waterskin. If you're hungry, you can grab a chunk of bread you keep in your pockets for emergencies.

If you're tired, and the code forces you to sleep, you put the entire clan at risk.

No, sorry, I don't like that one bit.

Remember, a Zalanthan "day" doesn't equal 24 hours. It's only what - 6 hours. The planet is smaller, so those 6 hours will also be less time compared to a RL hour. A Zalanthan day might be more like.. an afternoon real time. Do you have to sleep while you're at your office? Do you need to lay down in the middle of Phys Ed in school and take a nap?

No. Twice no, thrice no. I don't like it.

[spawnloser]

Well, actually, it is nine hours.

Still, however...who wants to roleplay sleeping every night?  The ways this could be coded into the game would be WAY too inconvenient on everyone, possibly staff as well...as the staff leading an RPT could all of a sudden have their entire group of RPTers (it's a word now) fall asleep on them...and then they have to wait 30 minutes for them all to sleep through the night...meanwhile, the staff person is sitting there twiddling their thumbs up their (I'm pretty sure that was the beginning of a mixed metaphor, so I'll stop)...anyway.  Yeah, it's a neat idea to add more realism, but playability of the game would be hurt WAY too much.  Just make sure your character gets a nap in or something when you are playing for an extended period of time, I say.

[Cenghiz]

You ever played a merchant? You have to meet people.. quick, before your sack of precious sparkies finish. That would be fine; for players who have been OK.. But the newbies would die, codewise. At least the merchants would die. Merchant needs communication, and people go out of the city when you craft and do your own business. Only at night you may meet people in taverns. Please don't...

[Seeker]

I am soooo gonna play a PC with narcolepsy next time....



Seeker

[spawnloser]

I know an NPC with narcolepsy...no bullshit.

[sarahjc]

My PC constantly stays awake, she almost never goes to sleep. But I Rp her as such. She uses spice to keep her awake, and when her body is shot, but she is too strung out to sleep, she uses another kind to allow her to rest.  A true junky.  :wink: I think a sleep code would be cool, with the idea that certain substances can alter how tired you are.

[jhunter]

I don't want to have to deal with this as a coded thing...I'd much rather have the choice when I rp sleeping instead of being forced into it when I'd rather not.

It would be like having to piss and shit being coded...it would be more of an annoyance and detract from the enjoyment of playing...

[Myrdryn]

We could code all the bodily functions (you can use your imagination), but I don't think that would add to the game.  There is a reason why we don't add 'everything', it would sacrifice playability.  It'd be a major pain in the butt to have to stop what you were doing to run to find a latrine every 4-5 hours (unless you are a desert nomad and then you'd just go in the sand, or save it or whatever desert people do).

Making sleep required would also sacrifice playability, making it so you had to wait X amount of time before you could play again (because you'd be sleeping), and possibly be the cause of many more PCs getting killed than already are.

Adding realism that doesn't add fun or facilitate role play, only serves to make the game more tedious IMO.

-Myrdryn

[Dakkon Black]

Caravan way [WE]

The crimson eyed templar hesitates, stopping on the road

The tanned soldier looks over and says "Something the matter Lord Templar?"

The crimson eyed templar says "Halt a moment"

The crimson eyed templar hunches over and curls a brown one

The crimson eyed templar stands back up, closing the flap on his shorts.

The crimson eyed templar says "Allright lets move"

[SpyGuy]

Yeah, as I said in my 5 AM post it does sacrifice playability.  I still don't think it would be a bad idea for clan leaders to order the troops before a long expedition or RPT to get an hour or two of sleep.  I'd just like someone to smite the people that think they can go days without sleeping while sparring, mining, chopping wood, etc.  I forget to do it sometimes myself, but it doesn't make it right   :?

Kudos to all the people that actually are good about getting a nap every now and again with their characters.

As far as sleep and taking a dump go... I think they're pretty different.  I don't care when someone takes a dump because it really doesn't affect playability.  But characters that are on 5 day long hunting sprees killing tembo, etc. really need to be shot.  And in my ideas defense, thats why I suggested some simple wake up items that after 2 days or so a character would need to regain their sleep meter or whatever.  Also to address the merchant thing, my idea was that a short nap (1 to two IG hours if you were starting to get exhausted) at ANY time of the day would work.  This wouldn't prevent merchants from hitting the taverns at night, just take a nap in the early afternoon.

[Anonymous]

Caravan way [WE]

The crimson eyed templar hesitates, stopping on the road

The tanned soldier looks over and says "Something the matter Lord Templar?"

The crimson eyed templar says "Halt a moment"

The crimson eyed templar hunches over and curls a brown one

The crimson eyed templar stands back up, closing the flap on his shorts.

The crimson eyed templar says "Allright lets move"

Poop jokes always get me.  I'm dying over this one.

[Angela Christine]

That story is TOTALLY unrealistic.  There is no way the Templar would pull up his shorts without having someone wipe his ass for him.


AC

[Pungee]

Also, the code does this to some extent. If you don't sleep, your current_stamina gets capped below your max_stamina.

[grog]

That story is TOTALLY unrealistic.  There is no way the Templar would pull up his shorts without having someone wipe his ass for him.


AC

I agree, there is always an elf with a long tongue around.

[John]

I don't like this idea. I'd want to see the ability to take a dump or piss (not being forced too, but being ABLE to) long before this idea is ever imp'd (and even then I still wouldn't like it).

I rarely codedly sleep (unless I want to AFK). However I will do relaxing activities. Have I just gone hunting all day? Then I'll "rest" at night. But I'll rarely sleep.

[Carida]

Pungee already took what I was going to say! But.. I'll say it again Yea.. your stamina goes down if you don't sleep after a while.. so my characters usually takes naps. I like the idea tho. Just.. don't make them sleep all night.. just your getting a little tired. You sleep for maybe.. 10rl min.. that's 1hr game time right? And your good as new. I mean.. eating and drinking is annoying too.. but we have to do it.

[AaronG]

Wow Dakkon Black, THAT is funny...

[Tamarin]

I sort of like this idea, however I agree with the fact that it would be unfortunate when a group of hunters go out, and suddenly decide they're tired and fall asleep during a battle.

Realistically, this would never happen, except under the most extreme of circumstances.  When confronted with a high-intensity situation (i.e. something 1000 times your size is about to eat you), your body releases adrenaline that will keep you up until you either die, or the problem is resolved.  That's what its for.  So when you're in combat, your stamina shouldn't drop until the battle is over and done with, and after that, it should drop -considerably-, because your body is essentially coming off a high.

[Crazy Hakhim]

I like the idea as well.
And even if the adrenaline surge passes or doesn't come, well, if one of the themes of the game is that it's a harsh world - You should have thought of sleeping before you went out on whatever expedition.

[Ghost]

If this idea is implemented, then we would have all the elves, and other thieves at the taverns, waiting idly for the sleepers.

And then the House prices would go up, as the demand for renting private houses will increase.  House Nenyuk, would move to the top of the Allanak Houses...etc..etc

Some PCs will always sleep in the secret shelters they find, and that I believe will drop the PC interaction.

Newbies will be doomed.

But most importantly, thieves will get lazy.  Who would want lazy thieves around?  :shock:

My opinion is, no, it is a bad idea to implement a sleep code.

[Trenidor]

You guys are wimps!

This code would be cool, but make it a little more leanient then the food and drink code.

IMHO people that travel for two days just to get somewhere are pretty stupid if they go non-stop. Blazing sun beating down on you and all---"MEN GO MAD!" you run out of water too quickly, and you waste precious MVs. I belive it says somewhere in the docs that it's best to travel at night, but I don't see this for anyone besides myself. Day is for resting, night is for activity, Zalanthans are noctournal. With this requirement for sleep, all you have to do is stay in the hotel, that's like 20 sids every five days or somethin' It'd put those rent rooms to good use, as well as enforce travel durring night instead of day if you made it more tireing to travel durring day than night; and Sand Storms...they're gonna take a heck of a lota sleeping to catch up.   [/url]

[John]

The problem with travelling at night, is it's harder to see/impossible at times. It's unreliable. Whereas travelling in the day is reliable.

[Gorobei]

I wouldn't mind being forced to sleep, just like I don't mind being forced to eat and drink.

However, if this sleep code was added, it would be essential to add a wake-up code as well, like what was suggested by someone, some time a while ago.  If not, people would be waking up pantsless all over the place.

[spawnloser]

The problem with any sleep code forcing someone to sleep is that most people would have somewhere to go...they don't all actually IC sleep in the sleeping rooms of the different taverns and inns about the world.  They mostly do have homes that they would go to and sleep at...but don't have such a coded place to go.  It would make the game WAY too easy on those random wandering pickpockets that would hang out in inns and taverns and jack everything off the sleeping bitches.

[SpyGuy]

I think getting jacked by pickpockets would really be more of a newbie issue, and what better way to teach them about the harshness of the world than having them get robbed blind till they smarten up?  :twisted:  Regardless, noobs are the ones who go out killing stuff or mining all day and then head into a public dorm to sleep it off and regen faster.

Seriously though, its not hard to find an out of the way place to crash every once in awhile if you aren't clanned, you don't have to sleep in public dorms.  Though this might make for an interesting system to set up personal rented sleeping chambers at certain inns in the world, if the pickpockets were becoming too much of a problem.

Also to comment on uberjazz's point, this IMO should be a gradual code.  No one should all of a sudden see "you are getting tired" in the middle of a fight and then pass out from sleep code.  I was thinking more like have 2 days (18 hours) awake.  Then for 3 hours have messages like "you are getting tired" but no coded loss.  Then for 6 hours have the character lose stun and vigor until they finally pass out to sleep it off.  So in this you would have a 3 hour window to find somewhere to sleep (assuming you wait till the last minute) and then take an hour long nap.  If you wait till you pass out I think it would be fitting to have to wait a few hours to wake up.

So I'm thinking more like 18 hours awake, 9 hours of getting tired.  For most people this wouldn't be an issue (its 4 and a half hours RL time) but it would add some realism for those people who get by sparring 24/7.

Its just how harsh you want to make it and how realistic.  The issue is really how playable it would make the game, would this cause more problems than its worth.

[Trenidor]

thats why you add a free clear when you log out, not to be used for powergaming that is, but this will allow you to sleep durring times you log off. Its the people that stay on for several IC days that would end up sleeping other places.

[Angela Christine]

I don't like this idea, but I don't think it would necessarily cause people to pass out.  I've done things that caused my stamina to drop into the negatives without passing out.  Assessing yourself when you have negative stamina is funny, but I'll let you discover that message for yourselves.    When stun drops to zero you always pass out, but stamina loss just leaves you helpless to move.  So you could be dead tired but still slug it out with that scrab or slump in your saddle and hope that your kank has enough energy to get you somewhere safe to camp.

But I'm still against the idea.  Tents are heavy.  The lightest tent I've found is 15 stone, that is 33 pounds, a heafty load for low strength characters like elves.  Until Zalanthas develops the one-man pup tent, I don't want any more stamina drains.


AC

[Dracul]

Well....try staying up for six straight days....with the mental effort you won't simply pass out. You might start to hallucinate, become deluded, and be in a very strange mental state. But you can stay concious, without drugs, etc.

[spawnloser]

This is correct, Dracul, but if we force characters to sleep, I see lots of people growing dissatisfied with the game.  Why punish people for enjoying the game and sticking around long enoug that their characters would get tired?  Also, it doesn't matter how tired you are after being up for two days...you can still push yourself a bit further if your life depends on it, and the code can't tell when that is the case...unless you're in combat.  I say leave it to the player and move on.

[Dracul]

Yup, I agree with both sides. lately with developing a half assed social life I haven't been playing as much, and then even moreso when I do are large blocks of time.    I'm one of those chars who stays up endlessly, with this thread and a few others Im trying to make my char nap a little more.

1) I think if it could be easily coded, a failed theft from a sleeping person would wake them up.
2) the idea that sleep would be a very gradual thing, and easily rememedied would be great if it was to be implemented
3) I disagree with passing out. Being that my limited personal experience plus some reshearch. Damn, you can get incredibly messed up not sleeping (err...'mini sleeps' you fall asleep and dream for nano seconds and spliced with your waking mind you hallucinated, intresting subject...anyways)
                Perhaps temporarily lowering skills when in extended sleep dep, similiar to weight encumberances.



Suggestions is all, arm rocks! Raarr!

[John]

And how will insomnia be coded? Sometimes people suffer from insomnia for no known reason, somtimes they suffer from it from stress. The code can't reflect these two situations. I say keep it as it is.

[Dracul]

Aye...insomnia doesn't negate the effects of not sleeping though...even an insomniac suffers from utter exhuastion after a long enough time wihtout sleep...and extend the period, they'll get the hallucinations too. etc.


I'm not batting you down, just making a point, an insomniac would simply not type sleep, and blame it on their insomnia.

Having to sleep would be a playability bitch though, food and thirst can be solved by simply doing them, but they dont take up 'time'

[Trenidor]

lol Time is pretty precious, but it's a good thing we got an upgrade to it, doubled it now so that we have more of it.

[Gorobei]

Time sucks, and I do my best to throw away as much as I can.