Coded Rich Independant Merchant Taxes

[John]

With all the recent talk about independant merchants having it too easy, I've been thinking about ways to make it harder for those independants.

In fact, a relatively new clothworker (in my experience, a clothworker with anything less than 15 days play time) will -lose- money selling clothes to the NPC shops

And you don't see anything wrong with selling a couple of 600+cost of materials items every day? ... There's no way a shopkeeper should let those expensive items stack up, considering how small the percentage of people is of people out there with the sid to afford their purchase. It's "broken" because certain people are willing to take advantage of the system. Making it more taxing on the independent's money pouch hurts everyone independent including those crafting realistically. Forcing people to sell to PCs if they want to offload the big expensive items sounds to me eminently sensible.
...
It's that final sale price which counts for how expensive it is. If you sell items that resell for a reasonable couple of hundred sid, you're likely making under a hundred sid per item. So, say we halve it again - and you're making 12500 sid per 3 months. That's still quite a lot as a House guard on four hundred sid an RL week would be making only about 5000 sid in that time, but you're paying for your own food and water. By that stage you're a well-to-do merchant who could quite reasonably be making more than many House employees, but you're still not on silly sid.

IMO it'd still be too easy to become a "well to do merchant"

These issues gave me an idea on how to stop independant's from making ridiculously large amounts of money. The problem is with increasing supplies, is that newbie merchants have it extremely hard. It also makes it difficult for clanned merchants.

So a solution is to have a rich items tax. Items that sell for above X amount of 'sid, get hit with a big tax. But this still hurts Kadius, Salarr, Kurac, etc. So have it that the Houses are exempt from the tax (they might have a deal where they pay a general tax). So if any non-Merhant House employee tried to sell something to ANYONE (even if it's a Merchant House), they would have to pay a large tax. This would mean in the current system...

If a silk shirt costs 1000 'sid. If I can sell it to Kadius for 400 'sid and I only spend 100 'sid on the supplies, I'm making 300 'sid profit. If I do this twice a day for a week, I'm making 4,200 'sid a week profit.

However if this tax existed I would have to pay a 200 'sid tax. Meaning I only make a 100 'sid profit per item. So if I sold the item twice a day for a week i would only make 1,400 'sid a week profit.

However if something cost 300 'sid, it wouldn't be affected by this tax.

NOTE: These numbers are only examples to show the general idea.

The affects this would have is...
* The Merchant Houses would tend to deal primarily in the higher-end items as they would have a monopoly (I think it's ridiculous an independant often sells better weapons then Salarr).
* This would allow for growth in the lower market (people are earning less, so they can afford less expensive stuff).
* PCs would be more likely to deal with items that aren't affected by the tax.
* It would lead to more under the table transactions (which can only happen PC to PC).
* It would send more of the independants into the 'rinth (where there are no taxes). Which according to the docs is where it should happen (if someone can find where on the site it says this I'd apreciate it ).

I think all of these effects are VERY good. I personally find it silly that most not-well-to-do PCs go to Kadius for clothing, instead of going to the independants. But that's just my personal opinion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Not a bad idea.

[Carnage]

Hurrah, let's fuck over the independant merchant class (a large VNPC portion of Allanak's commoner section) even more.

Not only is it hard enough for them to actually make enough to buy food and water, as well as supplies, for themself, but now we're going to fuck them over even harder so they lose money faster.

[jhunter]

Yeah, if they are really doing soooo weellll...how come I never seem to meet any of these rich-ass, independant merchants?

[Tmp]

Like most truly skilled and crafty independant merchants, they're not about to run around flaunting their wealth visibly so it can be taken away by thieves, raiders, the templarate or inciting attraction from the bigger merchant houses (Though Nenyuk would still know they are rich, unless they're stuffing all their sids under their mattresses *ouch*).

They're stockpiling until a rainy day comes.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the idea is to encourage more PC to PC interaction, instead of relying on NPC stores to buy product.

[jhunter]

Which is exactly why their needs to be more pc run clans.

Alot of the things people are dealing in that are craftable most of your average pcs don't buy...why should they? They can get better quality things from the merchant houses.

[crymerci]

I say no to the tax.

A simpler method (well, simpler to me, but I don't know how the code works):
Make it so that each individual crafter can only sell one of a specific item per RL week/reboot (instead of a 5-unless-someone-else-got-there-first limit). As it stands now, if you are not the only PC crafter of your kind in your city, you have to race to the shop after reboots.  Many people sell all 5 of whatever they have, and it's not necessarily because they're assholes, but they know they might get beat to the shop next week.

Then you could get rid of the 5-of-each-item limit entirely (I think it's 5, I dunno), although really, when is there ever 5 of the same type of crafter anywhere at the same time? But then again, maybe it would be better to keep the limit, in case people start getting others to "fence" their crafts to the House shops for them.

Besides, it's more realistic.  If you want to mass-produce items for a store, you should go to work for the House that runs it. (Maybe House-clanned merchants could sell 2-5 items per week to their House's shops).

Thoughts?

[jhunter]

Besides, it's more realistic. If you want to mass-produce items for a store, you should go to work for the House that runs it. (Maybe House-clanned merchants could sell 2-5 items per week to their House's shops).

Because you'd make less coin working for the house...they're going to take their cut and you'll still be doing the same about of work.

[John]

Make it so that each individual crafter can only sell one of a specific item per RL week/reboot

Unless you mean only certain items would have this imposition (such as 1000 'sid items) then newbie merchants are going to get screwed over. If I can (as a newbie) only sell 1 type of incense burner per week, I'm not going to be able to survive.

[jhunter]

crymerci wrote:
Make it so that each individual crafter can only sell one of a specific item per RL week/reboot
Unless you mean only certain items would have this imposition (such as 1000 'sid items) then newbie merchants are going to get screwed over. If I can (as a newbie) only sell 1 type of incense burner per week, I'm not going to be able to survive.

Yeah, or what about an independant hunter, miner, or lumberjack just starting out...most of what they sell is to those sort of shops...no way they could get by only selling one of anything a week.

[sacac]

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/rinth.html
There you go Google rules!

[Callisto]

The big perk of independents being able to make more then a House Tor soldier, is the independents are the ones that sponsor a lot of the other independents.

One well-funded PC merchant can give coded clans like the Byn a lot of interaction, can buy up all that extra shit independent hunters end up collecting because the local desert elf twink spam hunts to sell five of everything in the first day, not to mention circulate some craft-only items to give people an option of not waiting on a Salarri, not to mention variety.

Think it's too much?

Here's a little cost break down for the average RL week:
Water (100-500 'sid, depending how active you are)
Food (50-300 'sid, depending on how active you are)
Crafting supplies (300-5000, depending on how much you craft, how skilled you are and who you buy them from)
Housing (500-2000, depending on how secure a place you want)
Mercenary escorts (200-2000, depending on where you're going and how many fighters you want)
Bodyguard (100-500 x # of them, depending on a lot of factors)
Random House Theft (100+, depending on how secure your home is - twinky burglars can destroy a merchant with ease)

An active independent merchant has a LOT of expenses to handle, and with crafting sub-guilds, a lot of competition when it comes to how many of those silk shirts you can sell. Sure, best case, you could sell five for 400 'sid per week. That's what, 2000 'sid profit? That covers food, water and some craft supplies.

Unless you log in as soon as the game comes up, you will likely only sell 2-3 of any one item, sometimes none of them, because there are an awful lot of crafting sub guilds out there.

How many items can you craft? Well, that depends heavily on how much time you spend logged in and how much of that is devoted to crafting, but odds are unless you spam, you won't make more them 30.

The average item sells for 50-200 'sid, so we'll be generous and  ball park it at 150 per item. That's what, 4500 'sid?

You compare that, which seems like an awful lot for a RL week, to middle of the road expenses and suddenly it isn't such a mega pay off, is it?

Sure, you can cut costs with no bodyguard and no escorts, but odds are very good you won't live to see 10 days play time. You can collect your own supplies rather then buy them, but then you need an escort. You could go hardcore and collect your own supplies and never hire an escort or a bodyguard, but that is near suicide for a merchant class.

You can go without housing, but then you have to carry around all the stuff you peddle, which is a genuinely massive hit to productivity

You aren't going to make it filthy rich unless you twink to the extreme or manage to survive long enough to get a fair number of crafting skills up to the point of failing only 1 in 5 attempts. If you make it to that point as a merchant, odds are you've earned it and are spending the 'sid in the right places, at which point you're of benefit to the rest of the game.

If anything, I feel merchant NPCs should offer less to people selling gear without the barter skills.

Joe mercenary goes to sell a pair of black shoes to the merchant NPC, who offers him 3 'sid.

Jane merchant goes to sell that same pair of black shoes to the same merchant, who offers the standard 7 'sid.

To balance this out and slow down some of the power crafting a lot of magickers and soldiers do with a sub-guild, I would remove barter from all crafting sub-guilds. PC Merchants have the odds stacked against them as it is, this would just make them champions in their own arena again, not to mention ensure your local ranger/armorcrafter isn't bringing in more a week then your local Oashi Lady.

I think it would also stimulate a lot of growth in PC-to-PC buying and selling, since that Drovian/Tailor can make more selling to PCs then to NPCs.

Not going to re-read all that, I've got a splitting head ache. I'm pretty sure it all makes sense, though.

[My 2 sids]

Each coded clan in game has an Imm, and many of the player clans know one or two Imms they can ask for help.  The Imm basically provides the realism of the clan.  They can help with questions, help drive plots, help keep things balanced, etc.   With so many "good applicants" turning in applications for staff passions maybe we would have the staff numbers to appoint an Imm just for merchants.  Now, I'm not talking about every single PC who has a jewelry making hobby, I'm talking about the PCs who honestly wish to make independent merchants who spend the sid to buy merchant tokens and who don't join other clans.

The Imm could answer email, maybe schedule a few rpt with trips to a different city or tribe, could use NPCs to maybe help teach new skills ( At a noisy bar, "Hey slkd you know I'm doing well but I just can't for the life of me figure out how to bend this branch so it won't break.   I've been trying for days."  "Oh?  Well stop by later, I can show you")  or make npc/vnpc buyers for merchants who wish to sell items (I wonder if people would role play selling all day at the bazaar if people came to buy items)  or even maybe 'alert' some house if an independent is downplaying a house or getting "too far ahead".  Having one Imm in charge could also mean maybe they have time to work with players to develop new products and maybe player run clans as well.  They would also be more inclined to have the time to watch the independent merchants, a way to provide feedback and perhaps even karma.

Just an idea, but to me it seems that if we had someone with the time and knowledge to help, pc merchants could have more of a realistic chance in game.  We have had some great experiences with fighters or politics or thieves type of play and I'd like to think with the right opportunities we could have the same great experiences for those more inclined to the business part of the world

[Bestatte]

Callisto wrote:

Here's a little cost break down for the average RL week:
Water (100-500 'sid, depending how active you are)
Food (50-300 'sid, depending on how active you are)
Crafting supplies (300-5000, depending on how much you craft, how skilled you are and who you buy them from)
Housing (500-2000, depending on how secure a place you want)
Mercenary escorts (200-2000, depending on where you're going and how many fighters you want)
Bodyguard (100-500 x # of them, depending on a lot of factors)
Random House Theft (100+, depending on how secure your home is - twinky burglars can destroy a merchant with ease)

More realistic: Merchant hires a ranger.

Water: Free, ranger gets it for him.
Food: Free, ranger gets it for him.
Crafting supplies: Free, ranger gets it for him.
Housing: 500-2000 per MONTH, not per WEEK. Rents are yearly, not monthly.
Mercenary escorts: none - you don't need to leave town, you have a ranger going out for you.
Bodyguard: 100-500
Random House Theft: depends on the security of your home.

Cost for the ranger: 200 sids a game-month (RL week) plus he gets to keep/sell whatever things he brings back that you can't use.

Total weekly expenses: between 200 and 1200 sids per RL week, depending on whether or not you have a PC guard and the cost of your rent broken down to a weekly expense.

[Quirk]

It would be a killer to enforce. You'd almost never see it happen with PC to PC transactions.

I think that you could get the same result by slashing the percentage of the value of an item that an NPC would be willing to give you when the item is very expensive. The shopkeeper is risking being caught with a thousand-sid item they can't find a buyer for - so would they really want to gamble six hundred sid on the hope they can get rid of it soon?

This still wouldn't entirely solve the issue that rises if people spam-craft expensive items, but if you capped the amount of sid a merchant could spend on buying items in an RL week at a thousand sid, say, or less if they're not a representative of a big House, then the ability to make a massive income from crafting would be reduced. They could still attain impressive sid through selling to PCs, but that's a market which does model supply and demand and would hence need to be handled far more intelligently.

This would give rise to another oddity, however. If you employ an apprentice to work for you in the same line of business, and you're already flooding the market with your goods, there's no benefit to having them. Of course I'd argue that you should police yourself so you're not flooding the market, but I don't think everyone's going to love that idea.

Having read them, I do lean toward favouring Callisto's arguments for the status quo. There aren't many really rich independents. An independent who does something productive with their sid like employing others and building their own clan can create a lot of RP for the world; the problem comes more with those who hoard the wealth. Even at that, I don't feel particularly hurt because some merchant X is a miser who's accumulated a massive bundle of sid - misers die too, and sid's small consolation when you go to meet Drov.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Um...I would not suggest working for a merchant house AND selling a bunch of stuff to that merchant house's shops.

[Quirk]

This still wouldn't entirely solve the issue that rises if people spam-craft expensive items, but if you capped the amount of sid a merchant could spend on buying items in an RL week at a thousand sid, say, or less if they're not a representative of a big House, then the ability to make a massive income from crafting would be reduced.

Just reread that and realised it was unclear. I was talking about an NPC merchant having a capped quantity of sid to spend on buying PC goods, and the quantity of sid being lower with independent stallholders than the big Houses.

Quirk

[Black Isis]

Out of curiousity, is there a reason why crafters don't just sell directly to PCs?  I'm not a crafter, so I'm not really aware of the laws regarding independent sales -- do the Merchant Houses act like guilds and force everyone to deal with them in the cities?  Or do crafters just not want to take the time to unload inventory like that?

[Seeker]

Selling to PCs takes too much work.  Requires time, Role-Play, and they rarely will buy five incense burners at six hundred sids each.

Damn PCs only buy stuff that they might be useful to them, and they can't be scammed by haggling.

Too much interaction with PCs almost always hampers the independent's rise to riches.


Seeker

[ShaLeah]

Damn PCs only buy stuff that they might be useful to them, and they can't be scammed by haggling.

This is key, in my opinion, for independant success, the amount of things PCs buy versus the amount of things a merchant can make is unbalanced and having played a merchant many times over I can tell you that getting it past the bullshit stage is tough, especially when you don't have friends gathering material for you or you don't join a house. Who wants to buy twelve vases or incense burners or bows? It takes a shitload of 'sid to get to the sid-making stage.
I disagree with something Seeker said though, PCs are easier to haggle than NPCs because haggling often includes things other than 'sid.

Steepling your chubby fingers, you say, in spanish-accented english:
   "You kill that annoying little, up and coming jeweler for me and I outfit your aide, your wife, your wife's cousin, your five daughters and the kank with my fabulous chastity belts, My Lord, hmmm?"


ShaLeah
-who loves the merchant class above all others and has never gotten to the coded profitable stage, with or without clans.