Help that newbie elf!

[Akaramu]

A friend of mine, from Achaea, just gave Arm a try, and misunderstood me about the difficulty of elves, resulting in an elf PC. She has been stumbling around totally confused about what to do, and apparently no one gave her a little help... people yelled at her because of her race, ignored her, or told her they were busy and ran off. Her english isnt perfect, either. I'm afraid she is about to give up on Arm.

Do you all act totally IC when running into a confused newbie elf? Or would someone go out of their way to at least interact with them a little? That poor newbie needs a little help. Its a potential new player.

I'm not sure how I would handle the situation while staying IC, but I believe that we must take a new player by the hand a little, otherwise we lose them all after a few hours. Thoughts?

[creeper386]

A friend of mine ...

Well, seems like you know this person outside from the MUD. So, the best person I can think of to help her would be YOU.

It's almost impossible to help teach things from in the game, as there is just TOO much crap to try and teach someone knew. If you recruit someone, you should make sure to help get them over the cliff of a learning curve(I don't think it's nearly that bad but some do).

I don't think anyone should change IC actions to help someone. Yes, they can go OOC. Most the time that won't be enough help. Unless they direct them to a helper or something, and the newbie acctually does just that. Myself, I personally don't think someone could really be wondering around completely lost with no idea of what to do if they read the documents. Even SOME of the documents. Specially if they have MUDing experience. Even if they aren't perfect with English.

I've brought one person over to Armageddon so far. She acctually listened to me, read the documentation, acctually put effort into it, and such. The questions she asked me were mostly dealing with where to FIND something in the docs, not anything specific. As most of what she needed was there, she was just having troubles finding it from time to time. Well, some people might say she's not the best RPer around, but I know that even including some lucky breaks she's doing quite well. As she never MUDed at all before, and her RPing was just message boarding on Yahoo! which is way different sort of RP then a MUD, and ussually not quite on the same scale as is found here at Armageddon.

Over all, I'd say you're in the best position to help your friend. WAY more then anyone else could that runs into that character. It could not even be too obvious they are completely new so you can't jump on people who brush the elf off. Just reading some of the starting documentation alone would have reaffirmed what you told them that playing an elf is going to be difficult. Probably would have given them an idea so that they weren't completely lost too.

Maybe I'm just an asshole, but, all the information to start out, even for a person COMPLETELY new to RPing, and has never MUDed in their life. Sometimes it might take someone to help them find some documents, but alot of the basic stuff is all there, and pretty easy to find. Oh, and I'm still wondering why you want to act like people should stop their game to help them, when you know this person and could easiely help them yourself, even being somewhat new ... I don't know, just seems like you want to blame people for not helping and running off characters but not helping yourself... I'm sure I'm completely wrong though. You just made sure they knew exactly what they needed to know.


Creeper

[Akaramu]

I'm not quite in the best position to help, I'm at the other end of the world IC. And I have no idea about the place where she is. I dont know any taverns there, I dont know who might possibly hire her. I cant give her pointers about how to behave in certain situations. Because I have no idea about the area she is located at.

And she did read a lot of the docs, but they confused her, she's trying her best. I spent a LOT of time reading before I started, myself, and everything still confused the heck out of me. I am neither dumb nor did I not try hard enough. And I have MUD experience.

[Akaramu]

Editted for being off topic
-Nidhogg

[Pungee]

Everyone gets reamed their first time through. It's not a matter of intelligence, it's not a matter of reading the docs ninety times. I remember waiting for my first character I read every document linked on armageddon.org and I still logged in and made a dumbass of myself. I learned quick though and soon things started to click. Just tell your friend to keep at it.

[John]

apparently no one gave her a little help...

That's IC, and while completely fine, I do try to help newbies if I can. Yeah, I'm breaking IC with helping an elf, and I'll be sure to put it in my emotes and talks saying "the man says grudgingly "go down the road and make a left""

[Akaramu]

I understand it is IC to ignore an elf. Look at my first post, I was asking for thoughts about how one could take a newbie elf by the hand a little without breaking ICness.  

[Northlander]

Coming to Arm as a fresh one was oh so horrible and strange up until my character had got himself hired and found a few friends. Among new players, she's certainly not in any minority for thinking things are hard.

Two suggestions:

You could have her create a new character. It's harsh, and more work and time to invest, but playing a human is so much easier on the newcomer. That is, a newcomer who doesn't enjoy being shouted at, treated worse than kankshit, and handed a character, an untribed Elf, that's downright hard to play believably. Start her new character up closer to your character.

Or hook her up with a Helper. The Helper would know more about the city where she started, would have experience in helping newcomers, and would hopefully also have experience with playing an Elf.

Good luck to her.

[wizturbo]

I personally suggest, that there be a level -1 karma.  Which is what you are when your account is brand new, and you've never played Arm before.

Only race option is human, only starting places are allanak and tuluk, and perhaps even remove the merchant class option.

After your first character, your automatically brought to level 0 karma and things become like they are today.


I've had a friend who started off in the 'rinth for his first character, and it discouraged him from the game.  I'd personally love to see a larger population, and this game is very challenging to newcomers, i think these steps would really bring things in the right direction.

[aeshyw]

I may well be the person who your friend thought was 'yelling' at them because of their race - though that was certainly not my intention.  It was an awkward situation ICly, with a strange elf standing there smiling and seeming very nice and lost - so much so that I was wishing up hoping someone might email her with the suggestion she start over again as a human...and about to OOC the same to her, when she logged off.  Later, again just as I was about to OOC to her, she went to a much busier area -right before I had to log off myself, unfortunately.  It was a matter of bad timing.

I would really suggest your friend mail the account and ask to start over as a human.  She would find it an entirely different game.  I'd also suggest that she might want to try the Byn or the Atrium to get herself started with some extra help.  She shouldn't take some remarks about elves being thieves or perhaps unwelcome with the 'best' people as personal,  they were truly meant to offer some clues about elves not being the same delicate, friendly folks from Tolkienesque RP that she was probably thinking of.

Please feel free to have her contact myself or one of the other helpers for some assistance if she does decide to give it another go.

[Carnage]

A friend of mine, from Achaea, just gave Arm a try, and misunderstood me about the difficulty of elves, resulting in an elf PC. She has been stumbling around totally confused about what to do, and apparently no one gave her a little help... people yelled at her because of her race, ignored her, or told her they were busy and ran off. Her english isnt perfect, either. I'm afraid she is about to give up on Arm.

Do you all act totally IC when running into a confused newbie elf? Or would someone go out of their way to at least interact with them a little? That poor newbie needs a little help. Its a potential new player.

I'm not sure how I would handle the situation while staying IC, but I believe that we must take a new player by the hand a little, otherwise we lose them all after a few hours. Thoughts?

Edited by Nidhogg

Frankly, I don't understand exactly what you want. Do you want me to suddenly act out of character, put every other piece of interaction with someone else on hold at the moment, and take some newbie's hand to walk them through the game just because they didn't read the docs? I don't care of this comes across as harsh or discourages a million new players, but tough. Try reading over the actual documentation and learning more about the game. We aren't here to hold your hand and guide you through every little thing. The docs are.

[Quirk]

Let's at least try to be somewhat encouraging here. Did no-one here make any mistakes while they were a newbie? Did everyone read every single piece of documentation before entering the game? I think not.

Now, playing an elf is never going to be the best introduction to Arm. It's hard to find work and to find friends. They're scoundrels and thieves, and you need some knowledge of how the game works before you can handle them well. The way I see it there are only a couple of options, because people are only going to bend so far for a newbie, and that's never going to stretch to taking an elf under their wing.

The first option is, as has already been mentioned, to get her to retire the elf and create a human instead. Life is amazingly easier for humans. Everyone wants to hire you. Some people are even going to be openly friendly to you, particularly if you're friendly first.

The second option is to find a good player with a fairly in-depth knowledge of the game who's currently without a character to play an elf to be a family member and a mentor to her. This isn't going to make life miraculously easy, and while said mentor is offline she'll have to cope with the abuse and dislike alone. It does however give her a good introduction to elves if she still wishes to play one.

The Helpers can help to some degree, but they can't make a character that's almost unplayable for an uninformed newbie playable. I'm a strong believer that "family members" have a lot going for them - having a friendly mentor on hand in game can help a lot.

Quirk

[flurry]

Akaramu -

That's great that you brought a new player in and I hope she feels welcome.  Despite other impressions she may have, she -is- welcome, there are people who want to help her, and if she finds things difficult now that is completely normal and will improve.

I agree with the advice about playing a human instead.   As an elf, she will find that non-elves are reluctant to talk with her, and she may have quite a difficult time finding a job.   She can always try playing an elf again later.  

I recommend she get in touch with a helper, who could help deal with some of her questions while she's playing over AIM or email or something.

[Akaramu]

Editted by Nidhogg

As for documents being the best resource, I learned to be a good roleplayer through IC interaction. The docs are absolutely overwhelming for new players. And not everyone is patient enough to spend 3 days studying them before getting started. The docs do by no means replace IC learning.

I agree with wizturbo's idea. Totally new players should only be able to create a human. Or if they die right away, make it the first 15 or so hours played.

It IS possible to help a newbie out without leaving IC borders. Even I can think of a few possibilities.

You could...

...spend 10 minutes telling and showing them why you dislike elves. It will a) teach the player more about why his race is unpopular and b) Give them a chance to interact and learn emotes.

You could tell them in an unfriendly way to go somewhere else instead, where people who might be more likely to interact with them hang out. You could give directions. And be a grumpy bastard while doing so. And make a quick OOC comment about how your unfriendliness is IC, and they shouldnt be discouraged by it.

I could think of more but I dont have time right now.  

[flurry]

Just as a side comment - Akaramu never said that her friend didn't read the docs (in fact she specifically said that her friend had read the docs).  Perhaps it's better not to make wild assumptions, and try to be helpful.    Even after reading the docs, new players have a difficult time at first.    Almost always.  There's nothing unusual about that, and there's no reason to assume she hasn't read the docs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Having spoken to this person, I think she's down to try. I don't see a line of resistance to input. That said, she seemed a bit unsure as to what to do. She seemed very energetic in trying the game out, you see, and very scared to do something worng, and that's all gravy, certianly.

She knows, I hope, that she can contact me, or any of the many helpers, whenever a question arises that she needs answering. I welcome her to the game and hope that she sticks about. And, Akaruma, if YOU need assistance in assisting her, then feel free to do the same.

[Lasakar]

Elf was just unlucky choice for the first time. And she should let the fingers away from merchant, it is nearly impossible to play for a newbie.

I have made the experience that the people just more friendlier in the game than on this GDB. Never had a OOC problem in the game.

[Sandferret]

I, too, have been talking to this player since last night.  It is not that she did not read the documents, but digesting it all takes time.

It is very sad to see some of these posts condemning a very nice person, who will in my opinion be a very good player before long. Her one mistake was to start with a race that is not accepted by all. It has lead to her not having much chance for asking help IC.

Lost in an unfamiliar surroundings, no-one to help her find her way...Have you never been in that situation? I was. My first character was completely lost and confused in Allanak. I looked for a place to quit for an hour, too shy to ask anyone. I was not an elf, but I was a pickpocket and feared that people would somehow realise that.

Did I read the documents? Yes. I did. But I did not understand many of the things until much later. One needs both theory and practice to develope.

Unfortunately, it don't have a character that could help this elf. But I would be very glad to play with this player in the future if the characters are compatible. Don't be discouraged, you are doing a fine job there.

[MA]

Ok, I think I should point out couple of things myself (I finally figured how to do it, I hope :-) ). I am the person about who you are all talking, the silly elf newbie. Yes, I really read documemts. I tried my best to understand them.  But this all is really new for me, lot of new things, and I easy get confused. I knew elves are harder. I was warned. I wanted to try. Ok, it was not the best thing to do, but I will not change it now. At least, I can learn about elves a bit, no?
I am really -really- not whining about anyone´s RP. People thought my char is meanie lil thief just because she is elf? Great. At least, they -are- thinking something. I do not know who was the lady ´yelling´ at me, but I learned a lot about emotes by that. Plus (of course) I learned a lot about elves. And yes, this is thanks for unknown lady :-)
Umm... and yes. I am confused, lost, not sure what to do, rereading documents again and again, bothering people around, spamming Helpers with qouestions and do silly things (because I do not know they are silly. You are not smiling all the time when you are nervous?). Problem is I want to learn it. I want to try it. I am doing mistakes, I am sorry for mistakes I am doing, but... that doesnt mean I have to leave, does it? I guess all newbies in all MUDs are like that. Confused, annoying and lost. I am maybe more confused, annoying and lost then usual, because of my language barrier and I have not enough self-assurance, but I still want to try it.
Thanks all who are helping me with that.

Maria

[Akaramu]

I love you to bits hunny, and you know it  

Dont listen to Carnage and creeper, they are mean old grumps who swallow a cactus every morning.

[Not the yelling meanie]

I'm almost positive I'm one of the people who interacted with your character. If you were the one who had some chick OOC and say that "leave" was how to get out of the building. After you kept going back and forth from room to room.
When I first started I came from a place where "out" was how to get out so I had the same problem you did. So I understand the frustration. Don't feel bad. Everyone struggles with something when they get into something new.
I think it's great that you're going to try and stick it out with your elf but don't feel like you're failing if you change your mind and ask to retire the character. It isn't a failure for you. It's just a huge adjustment you have to make, and you might be more comfortable with a less huge one.
If the yelling meanie helped you learn about elves that's great! Oh and if I ever find your hand in my pocket I'll slice your fingers off.  
It's a different world, mudding. It takes a lot of getting used to especially when you switch to a new game and have the language barrier to deal with. Don't let yourself get too frustrated, relax, let things happen however they happen, and don't think you have to stay alive at all costs. Some of my best RP moments were the ones that ended up with my character being dead.

Good luck and welcome!

[Carnage]

You could...

...spend 10 minutes telling and showing them why you dislike elves. It will a) teach the player more about why his race is unpopular and b) Give them a chance to interact and learn emotes.

Yeah, see, that's already in help_elf and some of the other elf files. You could spend 10 minutes doing that, or you could spend hours disrupting roleplaying and other people just to find someone explain to you why nobody likes elves.

Dont listen to Carnage and creeper, they are mean old grumps who swallow a cactus every morning.

I'm not a babysitter. I'm not an instructor. I don't play this game to help newbie #2428 who complains about being confused, I play it to sit back and help me unwind. Underneath my name, is there anything that says the word 'Helper'? No. Therefore, any criticism about people being mean and actually being in character is useless.

This sort of shit happens at least once a week. Some people stay, some go. If you feel that I'm a 'grump' because I don't want to help every single newbie I see who suffers "Help I'm Lost And Confused And No One Likes Me Syndrome", then you're nuts.

[MA]

I am newbie without complex "Noone Likes Me". And maybe I am dumb, but I do not believe it´s true that -nobody- likes elves. I guess, at least, elves likes theirself.
M.

[Ralin]

Don't worry about it, your not dumb, your new, everyone struggles the first time. My first character I lost in a days time because I did something stupid without knowing I was doing something stupid.   Just give it time, the longer you stick it out the more you'll learn and the easier it will get.

[Akaramu]

Carnage, do you ever listen?

This whole thread was not directed to you, it was directed to those willing to be constructive. You successfully ignored every single point made so far that counters your argumentation. Like you do so often. I fail to take that kind of person seriously, you simply post to discourage others and show them how ignorant and how far below you they are. Whats the point? If you dont care, dont post. Dont even read the thread.

I didnt call you a grump because I want you to babysit newbies (for gods sake, dont, you'd bite their heads off). I did because you post for no reason other than to be negative, ignore the argumentation of others, discourage a newbie, make up false assumptions, and remind us a dozen times that you dont care.

[Forest Junkie]

I didnt call you a grump because I want you to babysit newbies (for gods sake, dont, you'd bite their heads off). I did because you post for no reason other than to be negative, ignore the argumentation of others, discourage a newbie, make up false assumptions, and remind us a dozen times that you dont care.

Carnage isn't a negative person. In fact, he's like my dog. He's very good at sniffing out piles of bullshit. ie Whining, bitching, groaning, moaning, you know, all that crap we hate to hear.

On topic, though, I try to help out newbies if I can. But as Carnage said, the documentation for the game is there for a reason. I will not sit someone down and have an OOC discussion about why I don't like them. It can become a waste of time, and I personally have more important things to do concerning IC actions.

[SpyGuy]

Just as a side comment - Akaramu never said that her friend didn't read the docs (in fact she specifically said that her friend had read the docs).  Perhaps it's better not to make wild assumptions, and try to be helpful.    Even after reading the docs, new players have a difficult time at first.    Almost always.  There's nothing unusual about that, and there's no reason to assume she hasn't read the docs.

I have to agree with this.  Even if a newbie has read all the relevant docs it can still be difficult to find your way through the city, get eq, etc.  In fact I probably started Arm 2 or 3 times but since I could never find anyone that could help me, and back then couldn't tell a PC from an NPC for the life of me, I just left and then tried again later.

I remember when I first started I also found emotes and says here a little challenging, I was more used to the style of play where you just emoted and threw in quotation marks if you were saying something.  I think this may be in the docs somewhere but when trying to start a new game I generally don't read "help emote" right away.

Its just some of the things that make Arm so challenging to RP on and so rewarding (like very limited OOC, no global channels, the list goes on) also make for a difficult growing period where newbies get accustomed to the game.

[Bestatte]

I'm with Carnage on the main point (I'm assuming he actually had one, so let's take it from there mkay?).

The point is, regardless of what some people want to believe, it is -not- our responsibility as players to help newbies. I get a little tired of hearing it left and right. Helpers are helpers for a reason. Those of us who are not helpers, are not obligated to help newbies, and I really wish people would just get that through their thick skulls.

NOW...HAVING SAID THAT:

I help newbies when I encounter them, if someone else hasn't already taken it to task. If I'm logged in early in the morning (often) and see a newbie (occasionally) and no one else is around (usually) I will go out of my way to assist them however I can. I have nothing else to do at the moment in most cases anyway and it won't kill me to extend a kindness just for the hell of it.

I have spent countless hours in game, in IM, in PM, via E-mail assisting new players. I don't say this to get kudos or thanks..but rather to present to you that people who are -not- obligated to help, will often do so anyway simply because it can be a rewarding experience.

Some days I just wanna give up on a newbie. And some days - I do. Usually though I encounter intelligent players who are just confused or lost in the game world without a good grasp on things. Or as in the case of Aramaku's friend, someone who doesn't read or write English very well, who shows up brand spanking new to the game thinking to try something more challenging than is recommended even for fluent English-speaking newbies.

It won't kill us to take time out (if we're not neck deep in the middle of an assassination or something) to drag some poor newbie to a quiet corner and OOC our hearts out. An hour spent now will prevent several hours of dealing with the -still-clueless- newbie later.

But no, I will not accept that it's my responsibility to do so and I resent being told that it is. I do it because it makes me feel good to help. Not because someone tells me I have to. If someone wants this to become an actual responsibility they can damned will put "IMM" on my title. Til then, I'm just another player trying to enjoy myself and trying to help others enjoy themselves as well.

[Akaramu]

No one said it is anyone's responsibility, Bestatte. But, as a community, we do have a responsibility. The community as a whole needs to make sure our numbers dont decrease... we would all have a lot less fun if our numbers went down to 15 players at peak hours because every single newbie gets discouraged and gives up.

Basically I'm trying to say that those who care at least a little should try when no one else is around or willing to help out for a moment. The ones who dont care... leave the poor newbie alone, and dont discourage them.

Its a community thing, and no single person's responsibility.

Having said that, I really loved your wonderful emotes, Bestatte, when I was new, and in the progress of learning them.

[MA]

"Or as in the case of Aramaku's friend, someone who doesn't read or write English very well, who shows up brand spanking new to the game thinking to try something more challenging than is recommended even for fluent English-speaking newbies."

Well...  :oops: I did not think my English is -that- bad.

[Bestatte]

Actually it's better than some folks who post here, for whom English is their primary language. Don't be discouraged. Oh and make yourself an actual account here on the GDB (General Discussion Board) so people can send you a PM (Private Message)!

As for Aramaku's note that no one's talking about responsibility, it's been said previously. Not necessarily in this particular thread. I could just -smell- another one coming and figured I'd head it off at the pass.

Oh and thanks Aramaku. I have no idea who you played, but it's always good to hear that I was able to be of help to someone.

[Akaramu]

I know. I post too much. Its almost 10 PM and I have nothing better to do than circle above the forums like a vulture and wait for the next opportunity to post. I had the evening planned out but it was cancelled  

[Angela Christine]

The problem with elves and dwarves is that even if someone wants to help, they may not be able to communicate in character.  It is hard to communicate when the language filters are turning everything to gibberish.  OOC gets around that, but you can't use it for IC stuff.


I don't think restricting new accounts to human rangers or warriors would really help though.  Yes, the other races are harder to get by with.  Likewise theives and merchants and be difficult to get a handle on when you don't understand everything about the syntax and culture.  But new players would be discouraged by seeing they could only try a narrow range of rolls, I'm sure some are discouraged that they can't play magic-users, psions or scholars right off the bat.  (Scholar isn't a guild, but it is hard to pull off scholar without being able to read and write).  I certainly wasn't thrilled about having to play an illiterate bumkin.  Limited choices turns off as many potential players as choosing unwisely does.


As for this case, I think the 'Byn and Kurac are the only easy-to-find clans that openly hire elves.  It sounds like Kurac might be the best bet in this case.


AC

[Mar]

"..Oh and make yourself an actual account here on the GDB (General Discussion Board) so people can send you a PM (Private Message)!"

Err... sorry. I knew I forgot something. Thanks for pointing it out.
Maria

[Candi]

Maria sounds both sweet and intelligent.  After all, how many of us could do as well if we were communicating in a second language?
I commend you on your positive attitude.  You will fit in beautifully, and in time, this will just be a funny, cute story for you to pass on to a newbie who is asking you for help.  My AIM name is Sweetecandi.  Send me a PM with your AIM and I'll add you to my buddy list so you can see me.  I think Venomz is your best choice for a helper,  but I will be here for you nonetheless, even if it is just for moral support.  I also used to play Achaea and I can appreciate the vast differences and the time it takes to get adjusted.  I also followed Akaramu to Armageddon.  Maybe we should start a clan?  Oops...wrong game.  

[creeper386]

Well, I'd like to say, I was in no way trying to insult the new player, nor was I saying noone should help her.

But if you think Akaramu that they only way to help is IG? That's wrong. I'm sorry but that's not even NEARLY the best way to help a new player. And I'll still stick by the fact, that if your going to be bringing in new players, either you should be willing and able to help them, or make sure they are in contact with someone that can(A helper). Do NOT expect them to get help IG. Hell, expect them to get robbed, killed, enslaved and who knows what else IG, almost anything that could be on the opposite end of help.

I also tend to help people out even if it isn't the best opportunity to. I've done it in the past. I may not do it as much now but within the first five months of playing I've gotten a note on my account for helping new players. I may not have great experience, or even be a good RPer by some standards but I know my way around the website and I've been MUDing for along time. The best way to help a newbie most the time is to show them the documentation.

She knew that elves would be hard, yes. Good. She still picked it. Well that you can't blame on anyone else. She is lost in Allanak. There is at least a basic map of the main city. Make sure she knows here that is. Everyone dislikes her, she thinks other elves would be helpful? Make sure to point out the documentation. Elves from other tribes aren't going to be helpful.

No, you can't learn to RP from reading the docs really, but you CAN learn most any and all information you need to RP properly. The documentation covers what the world is about. Without that, no matter how much IG experience you have, you're going to be missing out on things.

If she read all of the docs, great, but thats not really the point. Help her know where things are so she can find them when she needs them. I wouldn't expect anyone to read, memorize and recall all of the docs when they first start, but it's FAR easier if they are familiar with most of the layout, so they can find information.

Again, I mean no insult or say the newbie person did/didn't do this or that. I'm just saying, that you shouldn't tell people that they need to stop and help a person when you yourself are better off to help them or at least to point them in the right direction for help. The people IG may not know the information to help, may have pressing IC business that they can't stop and help. Or are just having a bad day, or are Carnage( Couldn't help it. You know you're a role model still!)

Anyways, I'm done writting abunch of stuff that'll mostly get ignored. That's cool though. Got it out of my system.

Mar: Welcome to Armageddon. It's difficult. The world is harsh. The playerbase might be full of uncaring bastards, but it's a great place still!


Creeper doesn't really like cactus, and prefers live porcupine.

[Callisto]

I don't see the big deal.

If she didn't read the documentation and got frustrated by in-game experiences, I don't see why we should be subject to any obvious guilt campaign because of it. If a newbie elf happens to smile and OMG *huggles* >_< some elf hater, there is nothing that elf hater can do but hate the elf without corrupting his character concept.

We're a helpful community, we do make an effort to get newbies off on the right foot, but once you're in-game, you're subject to the same treatment as everyone else. It's just that simple.

[SykotikGith]

Maria:

I will be honest and say I don't know much about elves, but as far as the rest of the game goes, commands, the game itself, Allanak, merchants...whatever you need IM me and I will do what I can to get the info you need. I'm usually available, and if you can't find me on IM, *please* feel free to E-mail me, I try to give quick responses when I see them.

You sound really nice, and I know sometimes it feels like you're in over your head. There *are* people who can help you, and yes, there *are* people who are going to turn you down flat --(lotsa love Carnage)--, but that's all part of the friendly community here. We've got our grouches and our do-gooders, and a wide range of people in between. You learn to love some and find the grains of truth with the others.

I know I've got it listed at the bottom, but just to make it easier I'll give you my screennames and E-mail:
AIM: MyzticalDryaD
MSN: dark_aphrael@hotmail.com
ICQ#: 7921719
E-Mail: dark_aphrael@hotmail.com

And last but not least, WELCOME TO ARMAGEDDON!!!!

[Akaramu]

But if you think Akaramu that they only way to help is IG? That's wrong.

I read that and skipped the rest of your post. No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

However, I give you credit for being about the only one to spell my name right.

[Forest Junkie]

No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight.

You are wrong A-k-a-r-a-m-u. The docs are there for a reason. There is no other better way to understand the game than to -read the documentation set forth by the staff-. OOC should not be used to sit on your ass and have a conversation.

It should be use to:
>ooc Hey, check out this link, <insert link>, it has tons of info on the questions you are asking, and the docs will help you better understand your concept. Good luck friend =)

[Akaramu]

Its a fact that spending days reading theory does little for you. You'll forget half, even if you read it twice, or three times, mix up the details of the rest, forget where you read a particular bit of info, and overall be very confused.

I'm not dumb, but thats how it was like for me.

ANY teacher could tell you that learning by doing goes faster and sticks better than risking a headache by digging through theory only.

Of course OOC should be used as little as possible. A newbie's best bet is to have a helper on AIM and ask questions one by one as they slowly take their first steps. Including links to docs they read before, but forgot, or couldnt find again. And keep the OOC talk on AIM and out of the game.

[Delirium]

You're well-intentioned, but bending IC to help someone out can only go so far, which is what most of these people are trying to say. It is far more preferrable to be able to help them out in an OOC manner while keeping IC as much as possible.

That said, I remember when I first came to Armageddon, I had never even used a MUD client. I was using the telnet window and was having all sorts of problems, the "RPI" I'd come from had no focus on emotes, only socials, I had little concept of 'realistic' hunting, I went OOC -way- too much because I was having problems with syntax that I couldn't figure out despite searching the helpfiles.. basically what I'm trying to say is that we're ALL n00bs when we start, and it shouldn't be something to be ashamed of.

However, I also had the help files open in a separate window constantly when I played, for the first few weeks. Armageddon can have a tough learning curve that is pretty easy to forget once you've been around long enough to start shaking canes at people, but we as players can only do so much to help that newbie without bending over backwards and destroying the integrity of the RPI environment; a player who wants to get the hang of this game NEEDS to be willing to search the helpfiles and read that documentation. If it's clear that you're making an effort to find the answers to your questions in the docs before resorting to asking OOC ingame, you'll probably find that people are more willing to help you, because they can see that you're at least making an attempt.

That's my 3:30 am ramble.

[Akaramu]

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

*sigh*

[Forest Junkie]

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

Right.

No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

Uhm...kay...

[SpyGuy]

I would like to say reading (most) of this forum inspired me to go out of my way to help a newbie I found.  With some use of the think command I think I validated the IC rationale and was also able to help a newbie get his stuff in order, well kinda.

Supporting newbie helping at 4 AM,
SpyGuy

[creeper386]

I read that and skipped the rest of your post. No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

However, I give you credit for being about the only one to spell my name right.

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

Well, first off, I give you:

I'm sorry but that's not even NEARLY the best way to help a new player. And I'll still stick by the fact, that if your going to be bringing in new players, either you should be willing and able to help them, or make sure they are in contact with someone that can(A helper). Do NOT expect them to get help IG.

Well, that gives a fair way to help newbies, or at least ones you bring to the game, with NO chance of breaking IC. You don't have to even be any where in the same region IG to help them this way. The best help for a newbie is on the outside of the game. That's why helpers are there. That's why this board is here, and that is why the documents are there. All OOC, all a great source of information. If it was best to learn IG, well, the documents wouldn't be nearly as extensive, Helpers!? Gone, as they are an out of game help.

Best way to help a newbie you run into in game? Well, no matter what, don't bend character. It doesn't help at all. Second, don't assume everything out of the norm or playing stupid characters is a newbie. Which I must say is another reason it's not a great thing to try and help IG, as some newbies are used to emoting and such so the only way to tell them apart is lack of knowledge. Some characters lack knowledge just as much as new players. If something can be handled quickly, go to the side, go OOC, and refer them to the helpers page, a helper's email/IM/whatever so they know someplace to go for further help if they need it.

And I well close with another quote of myself and alittle extra clarification:

The documentation covers what the world is about. Without that, no matter how much IG experience you have, you're going to be missing out on things

What exactly does that mean? It covers what is and isn't realistic. It covers things that may not be noticable on the visible level when playing(Elven/Dwarven Mindset). Experience and practice are great teachers, but you can't start there, and it'll only get you so far and that should be obvious rather you are talking RP or Brain Surgery. You'll start at references and books and documents. You'll go back to references and books and documents as you are practicing and training and gaining experience. Even when you've gained a life time of experience you go back to references and books and documents, if not to refresh your memory on some minor detail or clear up confusion, to learn new things that have been instituted.

[Bestatte]

It looks like Maria's been getting a lot of great advice and help lately, so I'm glad the thread was started. I think it's also great to see that so many people are willing to give -of their own free time- to help, whether they're helpers or not.

But just to affirm Creeper's thoughts (man Creeper, I'm agreeing with you again. Something is VERY sick and wrong here) :

In some cases, a simple ooc to remind someone of syntax is not going to kill ANYONE. I still need help with things sometimes too, and sometimes "time is of the essence" and I have to type -something- right away. Trying to look for the answer in the docs or help files might be futile if it's something that isn't listed (like help rope - hint hint to Sanvean)

In other cases, it's of greater benefit to both the newbie AND the other players to just refer the newbie to the docs. If it is clear that they don't understand something important, they will enjoy themselves MUCH MORE if they'd take their characters to a remote area of the game, or some semi-private area where there aren't any other PCs, and read the docs or helpfiles.

Interrupting RP because your thief character doesn't know who they're supposed to try and steal from can result in an hour-long OOC session. That is -not- fun for anyone who is logged into the game and trying to "be" their characters. Even the most benign requests can become a major headache if it takes you out of your RP for more than a minute or two.

You can't "blame" newbies for being newbies or unsure of their RP. You -can- blame them if they don't try to help themselves before asking for help.

I don't see Maria's situation as someone who didn't try. In fact, I saw her situation as someone who has tried very hard NOT to ask for help in-game, but instead to try to RP her character's confusion. Unfortunately it backfired on her and at the point this thread was started, she had become frustrated because she wanted to persevere and just wasn't sure how to go about it.

In my estimation (and observation of her character for brief moments) she did great. Started out "clueless" and was catching on splendidly. She just needed a little extra boost and someone to help her FIND the specific docs she needed to review, and an explanation of a couple of syntax issues.

If she had shown up and not even made an attempt to figure things out, I'd be in line for my turn with the flame-thrower. But I don't see this as the case at all.

[SykotikGith]

I've spoken with Maria, and I agree with Bestatte. She's a wonderful person, and I think she'll add a great deal to the game once she learns the ropes (help ropes = ask a helper!). She asks excellent questions, and doesn't need more than a quick explanation to get her started. She seems more than willing to use the docs, but I think she was overwhelmed by the amount of information she was getting. Once people started pointing her in directions, she started getting the right idea.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

*sigh*

I have helped many clueless newbies In-Game, because I find that despite the joys of Armageddon, helping others is the most rewarding experience of all.  Some of these newbies were elves, and that brings me to the point I'm trying to make.

Why the hell do so many people think its such a breach of IC to interact with elves?

I don't think the problem is that elves are hard for newbies to play, I think that the problem is that with the current situation in Allanak, there is no reward to be gained for anybody who wants to try their hand at  playing an elf.

I'll quote Rindan and repeat that Allanak is the land of silk and guard uniforms.  In the scheme of things, there is no place for the player of an elf.  There is no City Elf Tribe that can be joined.  Since the vast majority of the playerbase has all there needs cared for, they certainly don't need anything from an elf.  To me, this is deeply wrong.

To make things worse, many people handle prejudice very poorly.  I remember witnessing a moment where two warrior-types in House uniform walked into the Barrel and sat down at the bar, where an elf was sitting.  They ordered the elf to leave, and he ignored them.  So they stood up and DREW THEIR WEAPONS ON HIM.  OOCly, this pissed me off so much that I actually went up and put a stop to it.  This is wrong because they were in a tavern where countless virtual elves were.  If elves were really that offensive to them, they should have gone to the Trader's.  This is also wrong because the staff of the tavern would be unlikely to allow people to break the law and arbitrarily drive off their paying customers.

The fact is, elves are the second most prominent race in the cities.  In the desert, they could probably be said to be the dominant race.  A high-ranking Oashi might get away with refusing to deal with elves, but the average commoner isn't going to survive unless he learns to at least tolerate them if not accept them.  It says in the documentation that elves are distrusted.  I don't think that's the same as blatant and uncompromising hatred.

I remember sometime earlier when a newbie elf wandered into the Barrel, and there was an Oash noble and a bunch of other rich people hanging out there, instead of in the Trader's where they ought to have been.  My character was just a dirty commoner, and I ended up helping the elf out as best as I could.  I justified it by making my character want to fuck her (he basically wanted to fuck anything with a hole in it), and made sure that she knew what her races lot in life was.

So yes, if I saw that newbie elf wandering around cluelessly then I would have found a way to help them ICly.  And most likely, I wouldn't even consider it a breach of character.

[Forest Junkie]

The fact is, elves are the second most prominent race in the cities.  In the desert, they could probably be said to be the dominant race.  A high-ranking Oashi might get away with refusing to deal with elves, but the average commoner isn't going to survive unless he learns to at least tolerate them if not accept them.  It says in the documentation that elves are distrusted.  I don't think that's the same as blatant and uncompromising hatred.

Thank you so much. I have argued this point forever, and now I find someone who freaking agrees. Elves are not a disease, and should not be so spit upon as they are, IMO.

[Sanvean]

The person who is a newbie and gets some help, whether it's an OOC suggestion or an IM from a helper, is much more likely to stick around and become part of our world than the person who is not. By my estimate, about 1 out of every 10 people who try the game stick around for more than a day, and I'd be ecstatic to get that number up. But the only way that's going to happen is if a) we discover a way to beam the docs directly into people's brains or b) are willing to be helpful.

A similar situation might be how we treat applications. If I'm looking at an application and it's the person's first (or even 2nd or 3rd, given how fast characters can die) application, I will fix things that I might reject in an application by an experienced player. This may include rewriting their description or background - or even supplying one if it's been left out. I want to make getting people hooked on the game as easy as possible. And the important thing there is that it's not a case of lowering standards - I don't say "Oh, that person has a one-line description but they're new, so I'll approve it" - I say "They're new, I'll help them make the description fit our standards." and add what's missing.

The docs are a substantial investment in time - to a daunting degree, and I can understand where a new player might want to see what the world is like before investing that time. They'll enjoy it more if they look at them beforehand, absolutely, but I'm not going to make someone take a quiz on the elf helpfile in order to play. Get them addicted and then they'll read them on their own. The Quickstart Shaleah came up with addresses that a little, and I'm interested in seeing how well it works.

When I've been in situations where helping a person would be out of character to me, I take it to OOC and I'm willing to keep it there until they're prepared and ready to plunge back into the world of IC with me. Is it inconvenient and an interruption to play? Perhaps sometimes - but it also means I'm helping make sure there's people for me to immerse myself in the story with later on down the line.

I appreciate the people who help newbies because it's an important part of keeping this game alive. I think the helpers are swell, and I'll gladly buy any of them a beer at the APM.

[Dan]

I happen to be underage, and not an official helper. I try to help newbies in the game as I see them, in as much of an IC manner as possible too.

To get to the point: If I come to the APM, will you buy me a beer?

EDIT: Oops, realised I hadn't offered anything to the discussion-


I think of elves as that guy you know that deals in some hard drugs or something, but you don't know what. You'd go to him if you needed something in that way, either it be information about it, or the actual substance. He wouldn't think twice about taking a loan and not paying it back. In short, you deal with them if you have a reason, but you should be suspicious the wole time as well.

As far as newbies come into this, I think it ought to be even more stressed that they aren't suited for newer players.

[crymerci]

Edit: Er, nevermind.  Thought I was in derail thread.

[Dracul]

Note, Im a bastard who only read a few of the first posts before replying.

Especially if your friend would read this I'd like to apologize, I think I might have been one of the couple of people involved in an event.

A character of mine was trying to have a meeting with someone, and the elf was obviously a newbie, intruding and asking for a job. (time was short, and I tried to convey but never used an ooc comment, maybe I should have)  Pretty much brushed them off with some rp...but I really --meant-- to brush them off...go find them...and show them the way zalanthas really is with a pair of razor edged kidd gloves .


Ahh well...newbies are great, give them a little ooc time to get the game,so at least when they catch on to grasp the game well. The type of newbies I hate are ones that seem to catch on...and then never end up catching on, ever.

[Mar]

"A character of mine was trying to have a meeting with someone, and the elf was obviously a newbie, intruding and asking for a job."

Well, do not need apologize, because it probably wasnt me :-) How many other elf newbies are wandering here around? It looks like I am not only one in troubles, maybe I should start to find another newbie like me and we can... figure things together IC :-) Of course, if looks like that -all- other newbies like me are in ´nak... hmph.

Mar

[Anonymous]

Don't dilute the harshness because of some people not reading/grasping the help files and documentation.

Good that people showed her disgust and didn't go out of their way to help her! Yes, she's a newbie, but there's already some experience under her belt. She now has a better feeling of how things are. Surely it's a truer welcome to the world then if people are nice and friendly to her (as an elf). There are ways to be helpful and still show your revulsion, but as the norm -is- to dislike elves, surely we should try to convey that to newbies, and what's better than immersing them in it IG? As long as people roleplay, i don't see the problem. Worst case is newbie elf leaves because it's not Middle Earth and people don't likes elves.  :roll:

I only gave the docs a cursory glimpse before diving in (and i don't see how they can make it clearer that elves are hard to start with), but as soon as i was in i realised that it was a serious, involving game, and in order to respect the people who played it i'd better read more as quickly as possible and fit in as best i could with the detailed world already created.

Inconsistencies between the docs and how people play social and cultural norms is far more confusing when you're new - because you feel strange and abnormal for doing what -is- meant to be normal.

The quickstart is great by the way.

[Anonymous]

I think it would be great if chargen would be modified to include a warning when picking a race other than human and requiring input from the user.

*WARNING* You have selected $race.  Typically elves, half-elves and to a lesser degree dwarves, suffer from varying degrees of hatred from the most populace race on Zalanthas, humans.  Most notably elves are not viewed as the tall, fair and upright race found in other fantasy settings.  Elves are viewed as thieves and assassins who can't be trusted.  Because they are.

[Dracul]

"and show them the way zalanthas really is with a pair of razor edged kidd gloves"


Let me elaborate on that, when figuring out someone is a newbie I like to help show them the game a little. If they're an elf show them somehow that theyre discriminated agains, if I'm an elf, scam them a little. I think the best way to take a newbie is to give them some good solid rp, even if its trivial stuff, and if you have the certain character, fuck with them, go with everything ICly, with some subtle ooc hints to guide them, etc.

Like an elf helping out a newbie: Describing the city to him...telling him a bit about what he thinks about others...getting him to hand over some sid...etc.

[Krath]

I will go out of my way to help a newbie.

[jmordetsky]

I just pretend newbies are crazy....

...before killing them of course.

Just kidding.

Well...Maybe.

[Cenghiz]

Please don't flame me but, I become totally OOC when I'm alone with a newbie. Why? I was one. I read at least three books a week but it was still hard to devour the whole documentation. Why not to be OOC if you're not going to mess anyone's RP?
As the last word, I tell them that this never happened IC. I would ignore the elf, kick the halfbreed's a**, check my pack and go away. Of course saying:
>tell elf -chuckling Yey.. Why didn't you still get some weapons? Go kill a templar. I'm waiting for yeh 'ere.

... is fun too, I'm sure I'll be too tempted by Satan and do that one day, but not these days.