Exotic?

[Cuusardo]

In the real world, there are characteristics and features of people that make them "exotic."  People with almond-shaped eyes (such as Asians), for example, are considered to be "exotic-looking."

Seeing as a vast majority of people of every race on Zalanthas would be dark-skinned, I think that pale skin would probably be considered exotic.  Almond-shaped eyes would be fairly common, especially in people with elven blood, so that would not be considered exotic.  I saw a character who had something in its main desc about looking exotic, but going by the rest of the desc it seemed that this person was only exotic by Earth standards.

I often find myself wondering what exactly is considered exotic on Zalanthas as far as appearance goes.

[Tamarin]

I've thought a bit about this myself, and the first thing that came to mind is geography.  These days, there are essentially two geographic locations: The northlands, and the southlands.  To look at unique physical characterists belonging specifically to either locale, checking out the distance between them is a good place to start.

In reality, Tuluk and Allanak are not all that far apart, and thus their climate is not really that different.  There is a lot more vegetation in Tuluk, of course, but there are still sandstorms when Whira acts up.  Thus, the winds/sun/sand will have shaped these two populaces in about the same way.  Also, there was likely a lot of intermixing of blood between the two places during the Wars, and even during the time before Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath were conquered.

Addressing what Cuursado said about skin tone, yes, most people are probably tanned to a crisp.  Zalanthas is not the kind of world where one can live most of one's life inside.  As such, people are going to be naturally dark skinned, even without being exposed to sun rays.  Take Egypt for example.  Ancient egyptians were very dark-skinned, almost black like Africans (and they do have evidence of this...remains of people from that time revealed the right amount of melanoma to suggest a natural dark complexion), and Egypt seems to me to be a relatively similar climate.  As such, it is the pale comlexions that are going to be considered unusual, or exotic.  As for eye-shape and other things of that nature, we can't think of it in terms of asian, because Zalanthas doesn't have asians.  For all we know, the Zalanthan concept of a circle looks more like a rounded rectangle.

We try to separate ourselves so much from reality, but this is extremely difficult.  I am all in favor of coming up with a set list of characteristics that would be considered "average" for the Zalanthan humanoid (obviously different races have different traits), and perhaps this can be phased in over time.  I.e. the imms reject player apps from some of the more experienced players if their "exotic" humans have dark skin, regular shaped eyes, etc. etc.

[Zhaira]

Please keep idle OOC chatter to the board created for it.  I have removed some posts in the effort of making things readable.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd say blond, white, or bright red hair would be exotic.

[Anonymous]

Seeing as a vast majority of people of every race on Zalanthas would be dark-skinned, I think that pale skin would probably be considered exotic.  Almond-shaped eyes would be fairly common, especially in people with elven blood, so that would not be considered exotic.  I saw a character who had something in its main desc about looking exotic, but going by the rest of the desc it seemed that this person was only exotic by Earth standards.

I often find myself wondering what exactly is considered exotic on Zalanthas as far as appearance goes.

I think pale skin would just denote wealthyness or nobility, or having been very lucky. Certainly not the norm, but not quite exotic in the way you say it.

I think there would be so many different varieties of people that not much could be considered exotic. I mean, there are mutants and stuff as well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think pale skin would just denote wealthyness or nobility, or having been very lucky. Certainly not the norm, but not quite exotic in the way you say it.

I disagree.  Considering the vast amount of time that the inhabitants of Zalanthas have spent in a brutally hot world, it is likely that their skin tone is genetically dark, despite the (ahem) disporportionate amount of pale-skinned player characters.

I think there would be so many different varieties of people that not much could be considered exotic. I mean, there are mutants and stuff as well.

It's pretty clear in the documentation that the majority of people are dark-skinned.  Also, I think any mutant would be exotic, simply because while they aren't uncommon, they are all unique.  A Zalanthian could go through their entire life and not see the same mutation twice.

[John]

A Zalanthian could go through their entire life and not see the same mutation twice.

Not necessarily. I see some mutations that are very similar. Such as this mutation that gives non-half-elves and non-elves almond shaped eyes

But yeah, there are various mutations that are all themed familiarly. I won't go into IC info, but I can see someone seeing various people with the same mutation.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not necessarily. I see some mutations that are very similar. Such as this mutation that gives non-half-elves and non-elves almond shaped eyes ;)

But yeah, there are various mutations that are all themed familiarly. I won't go into IC info, but I can see someone seeing various people with the same mutation.

Key word being, could.  It isn't my fault that nobody has any imagination (see Angela Christine if you need ideas).

[creeper386]

I saw a character who had something in its main desc about looking exotic, but going by the rest of the desc it seemed that this person was only exotic by Earth standards.

Well, I'd have to say, he was probably exotic by Earth standards then. It's not your character reading this description. You have to translate it into what your character is seeing and make a decision based on that. I mean, that'd be like you being black and complaining because some white dude was saying they are darkly tanned. The black dude can't think the white dude acctually was saying he was dark by anything other then light skinned standards. Has to be abit of translation there.

As for eye-shape and other things of that nature, we can't think of it in terms of asian, because Zalanthas doesn't have asians. For all we know, the Zalanthan concept of a circle looks more like a rounded rectangle.

One, elves have almond shaped eyes commonly. Therefor half-elves do. Having almond shaped eyes IG IMO would be more likely to be a bad thing then an 'exotic' thing as in people liking it, although it might be more rare in humans and such. Also, a circle is a circle. Period. Yes, perhaps different things are visually appealing to a Zalanthan then by Earth standards, but that doesn't mean shapes are different. If they are different, then they wouldn't be the same shape.


Creeper

[John]

For all we know, the Zalanthan concept of a circle looks more like a rounded rectangle.

We're not reading sirihish when play Armageddon. We're reading english. Therefore if a description says something is a circle, it's a circle. Sure if you translated the word circle from English, you might produce rectangle in sirihish. But we're not reading sirihish. We're reading English.

It's not like with hot and cold, tall and short which are subjective terms. A circle is a circle. A rectangle is a rectangle. One is one. Up is up. Sky is sky. These aren't subjective terms.

[ShaLeah]

What I find exotic on Zalanthas, by ShaLeah


Black/very dark skin and pale hair/eyes.
Mutations, especially in the south. Some mutations are always unnerving no matter where you are.
Unnatural color hair or eyes.
Any pale person in Nak.
Any really dark person in Tuluk.
Any dark noble, any signs of work from a noble make me wonder.
Clean characters.

I can't think of much else. Naturally fair colors, red heads, blondes, I wonder how those would do.  To help me think on exotic level those things I listed should be together with really well written descriptions.  I've found that often I look past the ugly of ugly people because their describes are excellent.

[Larrath]

I try to think about things that would be less likely to exist on a genetic level.

People with red hair and freckles are more vulnerable to sunlight, so that would be rare.  Pale skin, albino coloration...probably any 'special' colored hair, though only the wilder colors (I can see grey haired people here and there, but pink hair is going to draw attention).

Third nipples.  Third breasts.

Oh, also, I think especially rounded or small ears on humans could be seen as a good quality, since elves are, like, not a good thing.

[Angela Christine]

I disagree.  Considering the vast amount of time that the inhabitants of Zalanthas have spent in a brutally hot world, it is likely that their skin tone is genetically dark, despite the (ahem) disporportionate amount of pale-skinned player characters.

It's pretty clear in the documentation that the majority of people are dark-skinned.

I am not sure it is so clear.

Zalanthas is not the middle east. It isn't the Sahara desert.  It isn't death valley.  It is a different planet with a different sun.  I wouldn't assume Zalanthan ethnicites are necessarily identical to places on earth with similar climates.

Heat doesn't cause dark skin.  Dark skin offers no particular advantage for dealing with heat, so there is no reason for natural selection to favor dark skinned people.

Damage from UV radiation causes darkening and thickening of the skin.  How much UV radiation is given off by Zalanthas' dim red sun?  How much reaches the surface?  We don't know, it could be more, it could be less.  The docs don't say.  Since there are NPCs with sun burns we can assume that there is some UV, but not how much.  The wall around Allanak is over 60 feet high, people who live and work near the walls may be exposed to very little sunlight or UV.  Someone living in the underground may have the sort of pasty complexion you'd expect from someone who spends their days indoors in front of the warm glow of a computer monitor.

Here are some exerpts from the racial helpfiles. I've only included humanoid ones that mention skin colour.

"Skin colour ranges from

nearly black to pale cream colours; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye colour among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability."

"Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. " [/list]

If desert elves are darker, it stands to reason that city elves are lighter.  Maybe city elves are the "pale cream" ones?

"Most humans stand between around 65 to 75 inches in height and

vary tremendously in skin and eye colour (hair colour tends to range between light blonde to black, but peculiar variations on even this feature are entirely possible). Aeons of life on Zalanthas has warped the human appearance enough so that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace: webbed fingers or toes, hairlessness, pointed ears, long or short limbs, or skin tones in the faint blues or greys are all possible mutations upon the basic human form."

"Half-giants appear much like a human, but with highly exaggerated features, and skin tones which sometimes go into the reds."

"Skin and eye colours among halflings tend to vary between a pale cream and a muddy brown, although other colourations are not uncommon: pale blue, greenish, or coppery skin can all be found." [/list]

It seems that pale colours are fairly common, blue is uncommon.  None of these races are listed as being dominantly dark skinned, by either genetics or personal adaptation.  

I believe a full range of ethnicity is beneficial.  It makes new players more comfortable if they can choose their look without being thought a freak, which is good.  Some people simply like playing someone who looks like a Celtic or Norseman.  It also reinforces the idea that the Known World has suffered climate change and displaced populations, as you would expect in a post-apocalyptic setting.


AC

[John]

In all the complaints about pale-skinned people. This is the first time I've read a good case for having pale skinned people.

[Sir Diealot]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I just read it, and decided I'd comment...The red sun would produce as much, if not more UV radiation than our yellow sun. (If the physics are the same in the Zalanthas universe, which they may not be..). Since the UV radiation would increase, the DNA strands in humans, and probably humanoids, that produce more folic acid (a chemical that is responsible for the thing that is responsible for the thing that is responsible..etc. etc. for skin darkening) would survive better, and live longer without melanoma..intense sunburns..and such..therefore, most people would be born looking like earth's african-american and Indian population, with perhaps some middle-eastern influences.  Also, most people would have smaller eyes of darker colors, to protect them from sand and intense heat that is /bad/ for the aqueous humor.  Noses would probably be small as well, with small nostrils, in order to keep out sand/parasites seeking that incredibly rich source of water.  Ears would be small for the same reason, and probably rounded both because of Elves being dislike, as well as the fact that it is less able to catch sand with them shaped like that.  Long limbs, and tall, lean bodies would be doing well here, think the Kenyan long-distance runners, or the tall, lanky types..Osama (who comes from the desert people of earth) is a tall, lean, think man with an average nose, small nostrils, small eyes, and swarthy skin..as are most people of his ethnicity.. The egyptians were shorter than modern americans, but were very, very lean and long-limbed..And that's just Humans..I could continue with this is anyone's interested, as I'm a bio major who studies genetics/evolution as my focus..and am deeply interested in the topic..or it could get discarded as this is, like you said, a fantasy game. (just trying to keep it realistic..which is what makes the MUD great imho.)

[EvilRoeSlade]

The documentation states that pale colors are possible.  It doesn't say that they are common.  Sort of like having red hair in RL.

Understand that I'm simply stating that pale skin would appear to be rare.  I'm not accusing people who have pale-skinned characters of being fuck-me PCs, or of disregarding the documentation.

[Sir Diealot]

I understand that..I'm just giving a biological precedent in relation to real-world physics and biology.

[Angela Christine]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I just read it, and decided I'd comment...The red sun would produce as much, if not more UV radiation than our yellow sun. (If the physics are the same in the Zalanthas universe, which they may not be..)

Please explain this assertion.  I don't know anything about stellar phenomina (except what shows up on startrek) so if there is some way of knowing what kinds of radiation are most likely to be emited by different colours of stars.

There is also the problem, I'm not sure if it makes a difference, of not knowing exactly what sort of red star it is.  Is it a regular star that just happens to be reddish?  Is it a red giant?  A red dwarf?  Ok, red dwarf is unlikely, but it could be a red giant.  I think the sun in DarkSun is a red giant.  A big dim sun.


Dim sun, heh heh, that sounds like chinese food.


AC

[Sir Diealot]

oy.. time for an astrophysics lesson kids. *loathing at AC*

   Red stars are larger because they have burned the tight hydrogen core of their younger days. A star the size of the sun would be roughly the size of Mars' orbit once it hit red-giant mode. That's a heckuvalot bigger, even astronomy-wise..Ok, now..when it does that, the heat is redistributed throughout the star, so the whole thing is burning hydrogen (or helium, depending on the star, if it's burning helium..then wow..there's a lot of UV because of the way particles work..which I can't get into because, a Dr. of Particle Physics I am not..ask Monsignior Hawking..)
   Ok, the star..which had been kept small by the force of gravity..and had been kept from implosion by the force of radiation emitted by fusion/burning/all that star junk.. just had the giant mass in the middle get burnt up..and now the whole thing is doing fission/fusion/whatever..so the thing expands. Also, in the middle, all the unburned particles..iron, lead, etc. etc. etc. implode, exploding out EVEN MORE energy..which forces the star to get bigger and continues to happen for quite a while. All of this spreads out energy, and causes more and more particles to be being burnt up, fusioned and fissioned, and since those processes release radiation..vwah-lah..extra UV.

[Carnage]

The documentation states that pale colors are possible.  It doesn't say that they are common.  Sort of like having red hair in RL.

It doesn't say it's uncommon either.

[da mitey warrior]

The red sun would produce as much, if not more UV radiation than our yellow sun

It should produce less.  Red stars produce more infra red than UV rays.  It would produce more total radiation, true, but more would be in the form of infra red and microwave radiation.

So does that mean that everyone should be pale?  I dunno.  There probably wouldn't be an ozone layer either.  So it could go either way.

[Comrade Canadia]

I don't really see the need to bring physics in to this to prove any points.  It's common sense.  Extremely hot climates with a great deal of sun = dark skin.  To have a multitude of exceptions to this without an understandable IC reason hurts my suspension of disbelief.  That's probably a big thing for me - I really could care less about all the pale skinned beauties if a reason was given for them, even a crappy contrived one... it'd help.

The two most commonly given reasons, strike me as sort of spur of the moment contrivances from players and... well, I don't buy them.  Saying that we get all these gorgeous North Americans because of random mutations seems a WEE BIT convenient for me.  And being 'indoorsy' also doesn't cut it.  If your parents are black, you don't turn into a fair-skinned prince by avoiding sunlight.

-Der Comrade

[wizturbo]

This isn't a typical world.  

If someone having light skin makes you disbelieve the world, but defilers and mindbenders do not...not sure what to tell ya.

To me, the color of someone's skin is a very minor thing compared to some of the leaps from reality Zalanthas has.

[Forest Junkie]

If someone having light skin makes you disbelieve the world, but defilers and mindbenders do not...not sure what to tell ya.

Thank you, I agree. If one cannot suspend their disbelief to enjoy a roleplaying -game-, then something is wrong. This is not reality. It's fiction. Just take things as they are.

[EvilRoeSlade]

This isn't a typical world.  

If someone having light skin makes you disbelieve the world, but defilers and mindbenders do not...not sure what to tell ya.

To me, the color of someone's skin is a very minor thing compared to some of the leaps from reality Zalanthas has.

Your comparison is such a far stretch from the topic at hand that it does little to aid the discussion.  A good science fiction or fantasy tale will only break the laws of physics, or any other natural laws that govern the real world, when it has to.  To break it on a whim is a mark of a poor and contrived setting.  I don't mind different races because I think that having biologically different sentient races is possible in theory.  I don't mind magick and psionics because their inexplicable nature is the whole point of including their existance.

The suspension of disbelief must be held, but more importantly, players have to be able to use logic derived from real life in order to solve problems.  I know that if my character jumps off a cliff he's going to be harmed, because gravity is still functional.  I know that long exposure to the sun will dehydrate my character, because a Zalanthian human needs the same fuel to survive and is affected by the environment in the same way as an earth human.

The whole point of a low fantasy setting is that you can survive using logic.  In real life, you can roughly approximate where somebody is from by the color of their skin.  Suppose I was a commanding officer of a unit in the military, stationed in Afghanistan, and my superiors told me they suspected there was a spy amongst the seven men taking orders from me.  I take a look at them.  Six of them are white Americans, and one of them is of Islamic heritage with a turban wrapped around his head.  Who do you think I'm going to question first?  If the same situation occurs when I'm an Allanaki militia Lieutenant, and I see six people with dark skin and one with fair skin, then I should be able to deduce that the one with fair skin is probably northern.  If the north wanted to use a spy, then they'd either have to use someone who was born in Nak, or somebody from Tuluk that looked as if they were born in Nak.  If I look at my seven men and see three with blue skin (which is outside the human norm and decidedly in the realm of mutation), three with pasty white skin, and one with red skin... then I consider that as bad as my character getting sucked into the sky because he forgot to stay indoors when "It's one of them darn gravity-reversal days."

Skin color is regionally based in real life.  This is a clear and obvious fact that shouldn't be deviated from unless there is a very good reason.  Right now I only see reasons not to deviate.

I don't see why this is even an issue.  I'm sure that somewhere in the documentation it states the following:

North= Lighter skin tones and hair
South= Darker skin tones and hair

I'll go hunting for the link now, and I'll post it should I discover where it is.

[wizturbo]

My point is simple, if there are 'logical reasons' for sorcerors and mindbenders to exist in Zalanthas I'm fairly certain that someone having a lighter skin tone can be explained with far less difficulty.

That and knowledge of Zalanthas genetic history is not something readily available.  For all we know, the defiling magicks of the dragon could have caused a vast amount of people's skin color to lose its darken hue.  Drinking Vivaduean created water primarily might effect genetics to lighten or darken skin color.

There are countless possibilities.  Now, if the immortals wanted to limit this discussion and state in the documention that light colored skin is extremely irregular, or that it is only possible due to genetic mutation or a very long line of people staying out of the sun (nobility perhaps) thats fine.  But as it stands now, from my understanding, color of skin is pretty much up for grabs.

[Larrath]

This is how I personally view skin colors.  Fair skin is, due to its rarity and the statement it holds (I don't have to be in the sun all day), a very attractive feature, much like plumpness in a hunger-stricken country (except, of course, that one is at least partially genetic and the other is not).

Because of this, I believe that light skin will be kept as a trait for some people, much like blue eyes or flowing blonde hair or whatever else those crazy f-mes will think about next.  Maybe small, perky noses and unnaturally deep mouths, but I digress.

About magickers and mindbenders in RL, or how they are connected to logic...in order to avoid a very long debate, I will simply say this.
Name one 'logical reason' that mindbenders do not exist in the real world.

True, I have never seen a man whose eyes squirt mineral water whether he is frightened, but this does not mean that they do not exist.

I personally DO believe that maintaining as much realism in Zalanthas as possible is something that should be strived for.  If I ever manage to get past the sea of silt, or wherever else that's on the corner of the Known World, I expect to see some bigass mountains that are blocking off a shitload of rainclouds, or at least a really big funnel that leads into the Dragon Temple in Allanak.

Lighter skin in the North and darker in the Sotuh is not a rule, it is a guideline, and a very good one at that.  I personally like being able to, as a Tor Academy student (which I am not), laugh at some miserable punk who just got his face mashed by a six year old girl with pigtails and no thumbs, and say that he must have some Northern blood in his veins and that he sucks and that he should go hug a really big pillar of wood that has some leaves over it or at least make sweet love to a nearby duskhorn.

It also feels right and believeable, to me, that some features are consistent.  People with freckles are more likely to get sunburn, and they will get it faster.
Thus:  People with freckles will either be Merchants/Nobles or they will be very miserable people.  People who go out in the sun...nomads, rangers of all sorts, scavengers, twinks...those people _should_ be darker.

This also gives the Nobility something to lift their noses to.  "Ha, you and your dark skins".

Sure, we don't have the genetic history readily available, and maybe Tektolnes put something in the water that steals melanin from people in order to convert it into sand (can't have too much of that!), or some defiling magick, sure.  But do we WANT to?

I see very much that we could lose and nothing that can truly be gained from this.  If you _really_ want to be a white-skinned ranger, go ahead, just don't forget that unless you have a mutation (white melanin?), you will probably not handle the sun as well as others.

Either way, I have never seen a 'regular' color skinned character being regarded as a freak, unless it was either extremely dark or extremely light, and even then it is rare.

[EvilRoeSlade]

My point is simple, if there are 'logical reasons' for sorcerors and mindbenders to exist in Zalanthas I'm fairly certain that someone having a lighter skin tone can be explained with far less difficulty.

That and knowledge of Zalanthas genetic history is not something readily available.  For all we know, the defiling magicks of the dragon could have caused a vast amount of people's skin color to lose its darken hue.  Drinking Vivaduean created water primarily might effect genetics to lighten or darken skin color.

We could also say that whira's unrest stems from random causes and occasionally results in "Reverse-gravity days."  But I don't see why we should do either.

Furthermore, the documentation is there to tell how Zalanthas is different from earth.  Not how it is the same.  So in this case I don't think its much of a stretch to assume that it is the same.

[Carnage]

Who gives a shit?

Why don't brand new bone weapons shatter apart when they hit someone's armor hard? How can kanks exist? If Tektolnes is so powerful, why doesn't he just bury Tuluk? How can hairless animals with smooth and supple hides exist?

Just suspend your disbelief and play the damn game instead of overanalyzing everything.

[Larrath]

1) Very sturdy bones.
2) You see, when an ant and a half-giant love each other very much...
3) Tektolnes and Muk Utep are one and the same.
4) They wear sunscreen.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Why don't brand new bone weapons shatter apart when they hit someone's armor hard?

I imagine because the code isn't advanced enough.  Skin tone needs no code.

How can kanks exist?

Kanks exist because they were adopted from the Dark Sun universe.  I can live with that.

If Tektolnes is so powerful, why doesn't he just bury Tuluk?

I'm sure that the staff has created a reason for something as important as that, even if they haven't bothered to tell you.

I can't find a ready explanation for that, but it doesn't bother me as much because it doesn't affect my roleplay.

I give a shit.  If you do not, I wholeheartedly encourage you not to post.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If Tektolnes is so powerful, why doesn't he just bury Tuluk?

One might consider Muk Utup.

[jhunter]

I can't find a ready explanation for that, but it doesn't bother me as much because it doesn't affect my roleplay.

So...how is this any different than the color...of SOMEONE ELSES skin?


Why should that affect your roleplay either?

I have to say I'm with Carnage on this one...let people make their pcs as long as it's within the boundaries of the docs...leave it alone.

It's not one players fault because a few others happened to have created a pc with a similiar skin tone, nose, hair,lips race whatever to one that's already in game.

And fuck...it would be soooooooo damned boring if everyone fit one exact cookie-cutter look.

[EvilRoeSlade]

So...how is this any different than the color...of SOMEONE ELSES skin?

I'll refer you to the post before that one.  It affects my role-play because it cancels out any logical deductions I might make regarding peoples region of birth, among other things.

It's not one players fault because a few others happened to have created a pc with a similiar skin tone, nose, hair,lips race whatever to one that's already in game.

I'm not suggesting that we knock karma off of everyone who does this.  All I want is an established, well-known norm.

And fuck...it would be soooooooo damned boring if everyone fit one exact cookie-cutter look.

If you think that your character can be unique because he has skin tone X, then I've got news for you.  It's already been done.  You'll have to be more creative than that.

[Sir Diealot]

I can't find a ready explanation for that, but it doesn't bother me as much because it doesn't affect my roleplay.

So...how is this any different than the color...of SOMEONE ELSES skin?


Why should that affect your roleplay either?
quote]

Because racism is a bitch..and in a harsh world where you can't trust anyone..well, skin color is yet another factor you can Rp with and play.. Also, I agree with ERS about the logic + scifi = good game/story. Otherwise, typing kill gortok could really mean
'contact Muk Utep; psi YOU SUXXORZ MY DIXXORZ'
and water could really dehydrate you when you drink it..or fill you up..or make you turn into a purple balloon cow. (normal, natural water, not vivy water)

[jhunter]

I'll refer you to the post before that one. It affects my role-play because it cancels out any logical deductions I might make regarding peoples region of birth, among other things.

With all the mutations in Arm I think this isn't relavent, there isn't really much of a norm and there wouldn't be with all the mutations...you'd be a better detective than Sherlock Holmes with a team of forensics and DNA specialists to be able to make any sort of logical deductions about people's region of birth, especially based on something like skin tone or color.

Yes, if Zalanthas was like Earth and mutations weren't that common I could see your point...but in a world ridden with mutations and such...it just makes no sense that there would be this expected norm.

[jhunter]

Because racism is a bitch..and in a harsh world where you can't trust anyone..well, skin color is yet another factor you can Rp with and play.. Also, I agree with ERS about the logic + scifi = good game/story. Otherwise, typing kill gortok could really mean
'contact Muk Utep; psi YOU SUXXORZ MY DIXXORZ'
and water could really dehydrate you when you drink it..or fill you up..or make you turn into a purple balloon cow. (normal, natural water, not vivy water)

And your point is?

There is plenty of racism in Arm...and none of it is based on skin tone or color.


There is logic behind this already, MUTATIONS.

They are common enough I can walk down any road in Tuluk and see obvious mutations...not to mention that there are probably many not so obvious ones.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There is logic behind this already, MUTATIONS.

At best, that's a half-assed explanation.  All it says in the helpfile on humans is that -faintly- grayish or bluish skin tones are possible mutations.  It says that human skin tones vary widely, but guess what?  They vary widely on earth also, and yet they all have regional basis to them.  The only difference I see between Zalanthian humans and earth humans is that there is a greater tendency towards mutations.  However, the majority of humans are still unmutated, and furthermore, the majority of mutated humans probably possess mutations unrelated to their skin tone.

Furthermore, even mutations are hereditary.  There once was a post on the message board of Allanak mentioning a four-armed boy, who happens to have a four-armed father as an NPC.  Mutations are consistent with the genetic rules of mutations in real life, they aren't an excuse to just have any damn skin tone you want and completely ignore that there might be a strong regional tendency towards a specific skin tone.

They are common enough I can walk down any road in Tuluk and see obvious mutations...not to mention that there are probably many not so obvious ones.

NPCs represent exceptional citizens of a particular city-state.  They aren't proportionate to the norm.  You can't say that there are 10 muls in Red Storm, and 40 other NPCs, and so one out of five residents of Red Storm is a mul.

[jhunter]

However, the majority of humans are still unmutated, and furthermore, the majority of mutated humans probably possess mutations unrelated to their skin tone.

At most that's a half-assed explanation...you've not a shred of evidence to prove that the majority of mutated humans posses mutations unrelated to skin tone.

As I stated...and this is FACT, not all mutations that occur in nature are obvious.

NPCs represent exceptional citizens of a particular city-state. They aren't proportionate to the norm. You can't say that there are 10 muls in Red Storm, and 40 other NPCs, and so one out of five residents of Red Storm is a mul.

Do they? Show me where this is stated and I'll have no problem accepting that as fact.

Also...if this is so...then it should also be changed...pcs are supposed to be comformed to certain norms...then why not the coded npc populations as well to more accurately display norms?

[EvilRoeSlade]

At most that's a half-assed explanation...you've not a shred of evidence to prove that the majority of mutated humans posses mutations unrelated to skin tone.

It's implicit.  A mutation is random, otherwise it's merely a gene and not a mutation.  Due to the wide variety of possible mutations, any single mutation would have to be a minority when compared to all the others.

Do they? Show me where this is stated and I'll have no problem accepting that as fact.

Savak posted it on the GDB, it isn't in the documentation.

But it's also implicit.  The vast majority of those living in Allanak are slaves.  However, I'd say that the majority of the NPCs are either merchants or soldiers, both of which are a middle-class minority.

Obviously there are valid game reasons for this.  If there were 50 slave NPCs in Allanak, 2 soldier NPCs, and 2 merchants, then the player-base would be very unhappy and thieves and killers would run rampant.

And no, players do not have to conform to the majority.  I doubt very much the staff starts rejecting your applications because you're playing too many free commoners and not enough slaves.

[jhunter]

Eons of life on Zalanthas has warped the human appearance enough so that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace: webbed fingers or toes, hairlessness, pointed ears, long or short limbs, or skin tones in the faint blues or greys are all possible mutations upon the human form.

In the documentation...it states "that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace".

It also includes skin tone in this.

You have no arguement to this..unless the imms have recinded what's already in the documentation somewhere.

Your arguement simply doesn't hold water bud.

It's implicit. A mutation is random, otherwise it's merely a gene and not a mutation. Due to the wide variety of possible mutations, any single mutation would have to be a minority when compared to all the others.

Want to reconsider your reasoning that they  are in the minority?

Also, as you yourself stated...most mutations are passed on...which would mean many could have the same or similar mutations.

[Barzalene]

Melanoma deficiency. There you go. A reason. Now go play and have fun.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In the documentation...it states "that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace".

It also includes skin tone in this.

If you were actually reading my arguements, you would know that I am aware of what it says and have mentioned it in this discussion.  It is clear to me that you are not.  Goodbye.

[jhunter]

Actually ERS, I can find nowhere that you stated anything other than contradicting specifically what is says in the docs...clearly...in every case I read that you brought the docs up...you were stating the contrary.

The documentation states that pale colors are possible. It doesn't say that they are common.

Eons of life on Zalanthas has warped the human appearance enough so that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace: webbed fingers or toes, hairlessness, pointed ears, long or short limbs, or skin tones in the faint blues or greys are all possible mutations upon the human form.

[/b]

[Cenghiz]

Your char doesn't want to trust the pale? Let him not. He wants to kill the pale.. Good. But you have NO right to tell me what I'm going to create. I even created an albino here. Opened albino in an encyclopedia and wrote down some similar description. And covered as much body parts of me as I could, then. Yes, an albino would die, in at most ten years. But I wanted that, then I had a mail; "your char has been approved."...

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't presume to tell you what you have a right to play, as I have continually said.  I just desire for there to be a norm for people to fall back on, since some people actually like to play the norm.  If having a norm makes some people give thought to their skin tone beyond picking a color randomly, that's an added bonus.

[spawnloser]

For those that need clarification on what ERS has been saying, of all the "anomolies," why would every pale person have that anomoly?  Why not jet purple, or fuscia for fuck's sake?  Why does it have to be pale?  Why is everyone else, their brother and sister, four cousins and kank all pale?  Why not some other type of mutation, if it is one?

[Callisto]

Why is everyone else, their brother and sister, four cousins and kank all pale?

I'll take a leap here and say.... because that's what some people enjoy?

[spawnloser]

If everyone enjoyed being a twink, would that make it right?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I never spoke against pale people, because pale people are not my issue.  I even suggested that the majority of Tulukis might all have fair skin and hair.

I do agree with Spawnloser though, and will add one thing.

Wouldn't you like playing a pale character better if your character was truly exotic, instead of identical to everybody else?

[flurry]

If everyone enjoyed being a twink, would that make it right?

I don't think this could reasonably be compared to twinking, since it is completely consistent with the documentation.

[ShaLeah]

Can pale fuschia work?  

[Carida]

SheLeah wrote:

Can pale fuschia work?  

OOoo! Pretty! YOu give me ideas!

[ShaLeah]

OOoo! Pretty! YOu give me ideas!

Don't call it fuschia, call it...

the pale ginka-sorbet colored woman

You gotta Armageddon it, right?   :wink:

[Callisto]

If everyone enjoyed being a twink, would that make it right?

There is nothing wrong with a PC having fair skin.

I'm not sure where you get the idea it's a good comparison.

[Forest Junkie]

If everyone enjoyed being a twink, would that make it right?

There is nothing wrong with a PC having fair skin.

I'm not sure where you get the idea it's a good comparison.

Anything to prove a point!  :wink:

I feel if you wish to roleplay having fair skin, then have at fiend. Just remember that more than likely you do not represent the "norm" for your area.

[spawnloser]

If you do something unrealistic within the context of the game, simply because you want to, how is that not similar to twinking?  Tell me that.

And yes, anything to prove a point.  I was not saying that anyone with a pale character is being twinky, so look for the message, not just the words.

Now, also, I never said you can't have a character with pale skin, just think about why your character has pale skin before making the character.

[Carnage]

If you do something unrealistic within the context of the game, simply because you want to, how is that not similar to twinking? Tell me that.

Because twinking is done to generally improve your character's skills or situation. I don't see how pale skin is improving a character's skin or improving any sort of situation they have at all.

[spawnloser]

Again I will say, I did not say it was the same, Carnage, only similar in that it is unrealistic for everyone to be pale in a world like this.  Got it yet?

[flurry]

It's not unrealistic for an individual to be pale, though.   It fits fine with the game world.  So what's the problem?   Sure, eveyone shouldn't be pale.  Everyone shouldn't be muscular.   Everyone shouldn't be tall.    Everyone shouldn't be (fill in any possible adjective you can think of).

[Carnage]

Again I will say, I didn't not say it was the same, Carnage, only similar in that it is unrealistic for everyone to be pale in a world like this.  Got it yet?

Nope.

Despite what you believe, there's no connection to pale skin and twinking. The 'unrealistic so it's similar' card is bullshit. Random mutations. Clothing covering the entire body. Whatever. If you want to say that, then not being hairy is similar to being twinkish too. As well as having wide nostrils or large ears or whatever logical adaption to the desert there is.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Because twinking is done to generally improve your character's skills or situation. I don't see how pale skin is improving a character's skin or improving any sort of situation they have at all.

Never met a fuck-me, eh?  Consider yourself lucky.

[Carnage]

Because twinking is done to generally improve your character's skills or situation. I don't see how pale skin is improving a character's skin or improving any sort of situation they have at all.

Never met a fuck-me, eh?  Consider yourself lucky.

What? Do you mean they 'twink' by mudsexing for an IC day or something?

I can't see how a beautiful character can be considered a twink. If we all made ugly characters, then the person who spent the least amount of time describing how much feces was smeared over their crooked nose would be the twink and the f-me.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Because twinking is done to generally improve your character's skills or situation. I don't see how pale skin is improving a character's skin or improving any sort of situation they have at all.

Note what I was responding to.  You say you don't see how pale skin is improving a character's situation.  I however, see a clear way in which it improves a character's situation.

(The rest of my post is not a response to Carnage.)

That however, isn't the issue I've chosen to crusade in this thread.  I don't really mind a bunch of people with pale skin.  If anything, I'm disturbed not by the people who are playing pale Fuck-mes, but the men who are going after skinny, pale girls instead of the plump, dark-skinned ones.

What I want is a unifying, region-based skin tone.  If the immortals came out and said: "Everyone on Zalanthas has pale skin, and the ones with dark skin stand out" then though I wouldn't be pleased, I would be more content than I am with the situation as it is now.

I realize it says in the documentation that humans have a wide range of skin tones.  So nobody is -really- doing anything wrong.  But I also realize that humans on Earth also have a wide range of skin tones, but they are far from random.  I speak under the assumption that skin tones on Zalanthas are not random either.  I know that there is an exception to this rule in the case of mutations.  In my opinion, this gives license for players to play any skin tone they want, but doesn't excuse the lack of documentation on the subject.  All that I'm asking for is a place on the documentation where it says Nak = dark features, Tuluk = fair features, or something similar.  Previously I thought it already said that somewhere, and I still do.  If anybody knows where it says that, please post the link on this thread.

[flurry]

I think this is what you're looking for (although maybe it's elsewhere too)

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html


Although I don't interpret this as you should be able to pick northern and southern people out of a lineup necessarily.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I am grateful, Flurry.  Here's the portion most relevant to this discussion:

Southerners tend to be darker in skin and hair color than northerners. Very few fair-skinned people exist. There are some mutations among commoners; you are advised to keep them to a minimum in your first character.

[jhunter]

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world.

I rather like this part...I think alot of us should remember that.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That quote was intended to remind newbies that life and culture on Zalanthas is very different from life and culture on earth.  You are using it out of context.

Southerners tend to be darker in skin and hair color than northerners.

There simply aren't two ways to interpret that statement.

Or this one.

Very few fair-skinned people exist.

[Angela Christine]

It may be that there isn't enough isolation to make that sort of distinction plausible.  There were tons of southern soldiers occupying the north for 40 years, and I'm sure they somtimes turned their amorous attentions to the locals.  The merchant houses routinely trade personel up and down the north road.  Even some relatively isolated groups like the Muark routinely adventure in one city or the other.  Sure, most Tulukis never go south of the shield wall, and most 'Nakkies never go north of it, but they aren't sufficiently isolated enough for a really unique northern or southern look.  For example:  It could be that 2/3 of people in Tuluk have red hair, while only 1/4 of people in Allanak have red hair, so in general Tulukies are more red-haired than Allanakies -- BUT red hair alone couldn't identify your place of birth because redhead are commone everywhere.  (Note: this is a fictitious example, I'm not really claiming that there are that many redhead).

Isolated tribes can have a distinct look, but the cities are melting pots composed of people formerly from dozens of tribes.  


As for being adapted to the climate, I'm not sure that is even possible because the climate is still a moving target.  Some area descriptions imply that they were far more lush even a few centuries ago.  Something happened a couple thousand years ago that nearly destroyed the environment, possibly did destroy it outside the known world, but it isn't over yet.  The world is still in it's death throws, and things will only get worse.

AC

[jhunter]

Here we go again...*sigh*

That quote was intended to remind newbies that life and culture on Zalanthas is very different from life and culture on earth. You are using it out of context.

Quote:
Southerners tend to be darker in skin and hair color than northerners.


There simply aren't two ways to interpret that statement.

a) I was merely pointing out something it stated in the docs...I don't see how I was -using- it in any, way shape or form...just merely pointing it out.
And I wouldn't think that this stops applying once you are no longer a newbie.

b) It says they -tend- to be darker...this, as was stated does not mean they all are easily identifiable as from being from north or south...or that they all are this way...there is just a tendency to.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Because it's fun to throw gasoline on a bonfire, documentation for at least one noble house states the following:

They're known to be thin and slightly angular, taking on a gaunt appearance. They have dark eyes and gently-curling black hair that conflict with their pale skin.

But if you want to get all technical about it, Sol is a golden G-type star, while Suk-Krath is a red giant.  The result is a shift in the color spectrum to the red.  As a result, you get things like green appearing to be black, etc.  The point being, "colors" as we know them would be completely different on Zalanthas, so the idea of "pale" versus "dark" skin is moot because there is no point of reference to scale the relative differences.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It may be that there isn't enough isolation to make that sort of distinction plausible.

That's speculation.  However, you have a valid point.  I have some speculation that I hope you'll find is equally valid.

There were tons of southern soldiers occupying the north for 40 years, and I'm sure they somtimes turned their amorous attentions to the locals.

There you are wrong, from what I know.  You can't expect a soldier to stay away from his home for fourty years, even if you -are- a cruel and merciless templar.  I have heard in game that most of the soldiers occupying Tuluk were themselves of Tuluki descent.  After the first moments of occupation, anyway.  

That's not speculation, though admittedly I don't think it mentions it anywhere in the documentation.  Still, it would appear to make sense.

The merchant houses routinely trade personel up and down the north road.  Even some relatively isolated groups like the Muark routinely adventure in one city or the other.

Agreed.  As I've mentioned, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility that an Allanaki templar could take some person who -looks- like he was born in Tuluk, and give him a lucrative spying contract because they have on record that he was born in Allanak and know it for a fact.

Sure, most Tulukis never go south of the shield wall, and most 'Nakkies never go north of it, but they aren't sufficiently isolated enough for a really unique northern or southern look.

It doesn't have to be really unique, it merely has to be notably distinct.  If it wasn't the latter, I don't think it would have been in the documentation.  From my experience regarding racism, the less difference there are between two people, the harder they will look at the differences that do exist.  Allanak and Tuluk have been at war physically, spiritually, and ethically on probably every ground that matters to anyone for as long as anybody can remember.  I think they have ample reasons to look at their friends and neighbors very, very hard and carefully.  If an Allanaki mob lynches someone because he didn't have quite the right look about him, who can really say whether or not he was a Tuluki?  He can't breed now that he's dead.

Isolated tribes can have a distinct look, but the cities are melting pots composed of people formerly from dozens of tribes.

A melting pot is a city where people lose the identity they formerly had.  Either city state is far larger than any tribe, and they can probably absorb the impact of refugees on the gene pool without changing their general appearance.  Remember that all physical traits generally associated with a region are likely to be dominant genes, since those are the only ones that would have survived the massive amounts of genetic intermingling that have occured far in the past.

The world is still in it's death throws, and things will only get worse.

Oh yeah baby.

[Sir Diealot]

I just don't see why jhunter and carnage insist on taking the speshul snowflake pale fuck-me's side..instead of looking at the BULK of what we're saying.. "Pale people are coo'..but the abundance of people would have general traits, esp. with the allanaki/tulukian hatreds 'n junk..'

now..wait.. let's insert some thought... Can you do it ? oop..there you go

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ON ZALANTHAS ARE DARK SKINNED IT SAYS SO IN THE DOCS STFU, YOUR POINT IS NO LONGER VALID BECAUSE ERS AND I ARE SAYING THAT PALE PEOPLE ARE OK BUT STILL NOT THE NORM AND WILL SET YOU APART..SPESHUL SNOWFLAKE THAT YOU ARE.

end thought process..watch for flaming hair.

Now..consider..oh wait, we just did.

Edited: Because Docks and Docs are very separate things..

[jhunter]

Could you please refrain from flaming?

Telling someone to shut the fuck up is as good as a flame IMHO.

[Cenghiz]

So? I don't get the real plot in this argument. If you're telling that people should not be allowed to create a pale char; nope. They can and they will. Even albinos are allowed by the staff if you play it correctly. If you're arguing just to remind that pale skinned people are extraordinary and shouldn't be created frequently by PC's, yep you're right.
If my next char would be a merchant class character who would join Kadius and stay in the compound crafting all his life, I would see no harm in making him/her pale. I would again, see no harm in doing a pale 'rinthi. And the staff would probably approve that. But my char would probably be 'normal', dark skinned. I just like to have the possibility.

[spawnloser]

Backing up just a little bit, since Carnage didn't understand, I did not say that playing a pale character was being a twink.  Someone basically said that since people enjoy it, it must be okay.  I said, without being blunt enough apparently, that the logic behind that statement was flawed since some people enjoy being a twink but that does not make being a twink okay.  My stance, now being blunt, is that being 'pale' should be uncommon but, amongst the PC base, is relatively common.  I don't think that there hasn't been at least three running around at any given point in time, and I have even recently seen four PCs in the same room with that keyword in their sdesc.  'Pale' is way overused.

[Callisto]

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ON ZALANTHAS ARE DARK SKINNED IT SAYS SO IN THE DOCS STFU, YOUR POINT IS NO LONGER VALID BECAUSE ERS AND I ARE SAYING THAT PALE PEOPLE ARE OK BUT STILL NOT THE NORM AND WILL SET YOU APART..SPESHUL SNOWFLAKE THAT YOU ARE.

We are now on par with counter-strike forums. Winners are we!

Someone basically said that since people enjoy it, it must be okay.

Why is everyone else, their brother and sister, four cousins and kank all pale?

I'll take a leap here and say.... because that's what some people enjoy?

No one 'basically' said anything of the sort.

What WAS said is that there are pale PCs because some people enjoy it. Nothing more, nothing less.

It isn't against the rules, it obviously isn't an incredible exception in or out of game since these PCs continue to be approved, so, being blunt, what the fuck is your problem? You play what you enjoy, let everyone else play what they enjoy and let the staff handle the rest.

[Sir Diealot]

Someone basically said that since people enjoy it, it must be okay.

Why is everyone else, their brother and sister, four cousins and kank all pale?

I'll take a leap here and say.... because that's what some people enjoy?

No one 'basically' said anything of the sort.

What WAS said is that there are pale PCs because some people enjoy it. Nothing more, nothing less.

It isn't against the rules, it obviously isn't an incredible exception in or out of game since these PCs continue to be approved, so, being blunt, what the fuck is your problem? You play what you enjoy, let everyone else play what they enjoy and let the staff handle the rest.

ahem..I didn't mean to flame, it's just that they don't seem to get the difference between pale skinned PCs being a minority, and pale skinned people being /nonexistant/.  Because there is a fairly large distance between those.  Infinity times difference if you want to be technical.  

Now, one thing that I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing come out of this thread would /be/ staff putting a limit on pale-skinned PC, as per the documentation.  That would be both realistic, and very much a part of the IC world.  It may be a bit hard for them to do that, since I'm sure there's a ton of applications, and staffer's don't always talk as much as would allow them to do that most likely, but it would be nice.  Now, once again, we're back to square 1..and the actual point of the thread! pale skinned people (we're talking just pale, ie. indoors, not genetic mutations..) are rare, if the PC has it in their bg that their skin is a mutation, that's cool..much more IC than I am an uber speshul fuck-me PCobject.  If you want TS go to ..if you want harsh, realistic desert Rp on a harsh, realistic world, come to Armageddon..it's a /very/ simple concept..

[Carnage]

Backing up just a little bit, since Carnage didn't understand, I did not say that playing a pale character was being a twink.

No, I just got confused at the vagueness of your posts and the constant way you'd switch your words around.

[Angela Christine]

How pale is pale?  How dark is dark?

Is "typical" mediteranian pale, or dark?  What if that mediteranian person has blond hair?

Does dark hair have to be black to be dark?  Is dark brown dark?  Is dark red dark?

On earth, most ethnic groups have black hair and brown/black eyes.

Australian aborigine: Very dark skin, corse black hair, brown eyes.

African: medium-dark skin, corse and tightly curled black hair, brown eyes.

Native Americans: medium skin, black hair, brown eyes.

Asians: light to dark skin, black hair, brown eyes.

Southern Europe: Usually medium skin, brown or black hair, brown eyes.

Northern European: light to medium skin, brown, blue, green or hazel eyes, blond, red, brown or black hair.

Albino: very light skin, white hair (texture depends on racial group) red eyes.


On Earth most racial groups that have dark skin also have brown eyes and black hair.  Does it have to be that way on Zalanthas too?

Arabs are caucasians, just like Swedes.  So if you had a person with arabic skin tones, red hair and blue eyes, would that be acceptable?

What about someone with rich, cocoa  coloured skin, brown eyes, but their hair is fine, straight, and bleached dirty blond by the sun.  Acceptable, or not?


AC

[spawngone]

No one 'basically' said anything of the sort.

I said there was something wrong with everyone being pale...your comment could only be taken as opposed to mine by nature of how it was phrased and when it was asked in the conversation, meaning that you came off as saying that being pale was okay...and it seemed to be okay because people were doing it because they enjoyed it.

Now, I'm sorry if rhetorical questions and analogies are beyond some people, so I will be absolutely blunt from now on, Carnage.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I see a lot of points that I'd like to address, and I'd like to do it in one big post.

Justice may be applied very differently to citizens and non-citizens, and can mean the difference between a short stay in the dungeons and summary execution. In other words, citizens of a place are treated more leniently than are non-citizens. Remember that Zalanthas is a harsh world, and some seemingly harmless crimes may be punished with the death of the offending character.

While I am sure that the templarate keeps documents of citizenship, an Allanaki soldier cannot read, much less gain access to them.  Instead they have to take one look at the perpetrator, decide whether they are from the city or not, and based on that information either arrest them, or slay them where they stand.

From what I know, the code supports this.  If you are in Tuluk and commit a crime in Allanak, you will be killed rather than captured by NPC soldiers.  Correct me if I am mistaken on that point.  This suggests that the soldiers can tell somebodies regional ethnicity just by looking at them, and indeed would have to in order to do their jobs correctly.

No one 'basically' said anything of the sort.

What WAS said is that there are pale PCs because some people enjoy it. Nothing more, nothing less.

It isn't against the rules, it obviously isn't an incredible exception in or out of game since these PCs continue to be approved, so, being blunt, what the fuck is your problem? You play what you enjoy, let everyone else play what they enjoy and let the staff handle the rest.

That is a very bad attitude, and let me explain why.  There was a time (which I think you remember, Callisto), in which an inordinate amount of people decided that elves were really not bad people after all.  Elves were peoples best friends.  Half-elves were just humans with better agility.  It wasn't exactly Armageddon MUD's proudest moment of racial RP.

The staff can tell me that I shouldn't create so many characters that disregard the prejudice against elves, and the playerbase can too.  But in the end, nobody is going to stop me if every character I make starts making friends with half-breeds.  There isn't anything wrong with making a character that will go against the social norm every once in a while.  But if everybody does it, then the game is harmed because the exception has become the norm.  The same thing can be said regarding the skin color of your character.

Nobody is pretending that we have power to force people to decide what kind of character they play, because not even the staff is willing to do that.  All we are doing is asking (perhaps begging would be a better term) to please take the environment into consideration when playing and creating your character, because in most cases you are the only person who will tell yourself to stop and think about what you are doing.

Although it probably isn't very prudent of me to join in on the pale arguement, that statement applies equally to the part in the documentation that discusses regional skin tone, and the part that states pale-skinned people are rare.

Now, one thing that I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing come out of this thread would /be/ staff putting a limit on pale-skinned PC, as per the documentation. That would be both realistic, and very much a part of the IC world.

It would be realistic, yes.  But it would also be impossible.  It's easy to make sure that no dwarf without a focus appears in game, because the staff can simply deny EVERY dwarf application that doesn't include a focus in the background.  But what about pale-skinned characters?  They are different from dwarves without a focus in that they exist.  It's possible for there to be a few of them, here and there.  Must the staff keep track of every single one?  Do the pale-skinned players have to send in an E-mail when their character dies, so the staff knows that there is a new "pale-skinned" slot?  Should pale skin be a special application?  I think the answer to all the above questions is no.  This is a clearly a realm of the game in which we, the playerbase, must police ourselves, as I have pointed out before.  I optimistically believe that we are mature enough to do so.

On Earth most racial groups that have dark skin also have brown eyes and black hair. Does it have to be that way on Zalanthas too?

Arabs are caucasians, just like Swedes. So if you had a person with arabic skin tones, red hair and blue eyes, would that be acceptable?

What about someone with rich, cocoa coloured skin, brown eyes, but their hair is fine, straight, and bleached dirty blond by the sun. Acceptable, or not?

Southerners tend to be darker in skin tone and hair color than northerners.  Fair-skinned people are very rare.  I think those are the only real hard and fast rules.

Documentation might help give characters a better idea.  However, defining what northerners and southerners look like further than they are defined now would have an obvious down-side.

Lets take people of Asian descent.  Asian people tend to have angular, squinty eyes, skin that ranges from fair to faintly golden, and black hair.  Every Asian that I've seen looks like that, and yet I can distinguish between my Asian friends and other Oriental people.  How?  I can't really explain how.  I can't accurately describe the details that separate my Asian friends from other Asians, it is more like a group of tiny, barely perceptible details that my brain has subconsciously trained itself to notice.  Obviously, this is too difficult to convey in a 6-8 line text description.

So having detailed documentation would probably make everyone seem to look exactly the same, even though nothing could be further from the truth.  Beyond the few, vague guidelines that have been presented, I would say not to worry about it.  Saying that your character has "features associated with the Southlands" or "lighter skin marking her as a descendant of the Gol Krathu area" would be a better way to go if you are interested in conveying that your character has a very noticable regional look to her.

Just a couple quibbling details...

If my next char would be a merchant class character who would join Kadius and stay in the compound crafting all his life, I would see no harm in making him/her pale.

Skin tone is genetically based.  A character's occupation will not change it in any way.

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ON ZALANTHAS ARE DARK SKINNED IT SAYS SO IN THE DOCS STFU, YOUR POINT IS NO LONGER VALID BECAUSE ERS AND I ARE SAYING THAT PALE PEOPLE ARE OK BUT STILL NOT THE NORM AND WILL SET YOU APART..SPESHUL SNOWFLAKE THAT YOU ARE.

I agree with the point you are trying to make.  But if you are going to be rude and over-use the caps lock key, please leave me out of it.

[Sir Diealot]

Once again, sorry for the caps-lock and rudeness, I just couldn't fathom why they didn't understand that, very simple, concept.

[jhunter]

Skin tone is genetically based. A character's occupation will not change it in any way.

Yes, this is true...it is also true that skin tone can be altered by the amount of time spent in the sun...or lack thereof.

[Forest Junkie]

Skin tone is genetically based. A character's occupation will not change it in any way.

Yes, this is true...it is also true that skin tone can be altered by the amount of time spent in the sun...or lack thereof.

Both of you are correct.

[Sir Diealot]

         Both correct! (ligthening the mood, since all of us are getting a bit serious..me included.)

[Callisto]

Now, I'm sorry if rhetorical questions and analogies are beyond some people, so I will be absolutely blunt from now on, Carnage.

You aren't clever enough to pull off statements like that.

That is a very bad attitude, and let me explain why. There was a time (which I think you remember, Callisto), in which an inordinate amount of people decided that elves were really not bad people after all. Elves were peoples best friends. Half-elves were just humans with better agility. It wasn't exactly Armageddon MUD's proudest moment of racial RP.

I remember.

However, you can't compare the two. That was a problem that extended to a large portion of the player base and was a wild throw in the face of the established social environment, where as the number of fair skinned characters is and, excluding a few passing trends, has always been relatively low. If and when it gets to the point where there are a large and consistent number of them in-game, I'll admit a problem, but I don't think it will get to that point.

Right now there is a major area in the game that has quite a few fair skinned characters, but that isn't consistent for the area and will decline as those characters die off. It's much the same as the sharp increase in the number of tribal characters, there just happens to be a trend  and it will pass, so there's no need for spawnloser and the other self-appointed RP police to piss and moan about it.

It's the nature of the game and it will happen again, just like the trend of everyone being a magicker, a tribal, a nobles aide, a desert elf, people using two-handed weapons, the number of dwarves, half-elves... you see what I'm saying? It'll pass. The game naturally balances itself out sooner or later, just like it will throw itself back out of balance the next time something new comes into the game, Ex: two-handed skill and the tribal accent.

Just let them play what they want, the game and the staff will balance things out in the end, just like always.

[jhunter]

Just let them play what they want, the game and the staff will balance things out in the end, just like always.

Exactly the way I feel about it Callisto.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That's a good note to end on.  With that, I bow out.