Requested Feedback on Webpage

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Whoa.

[Quo]

I like the page a lot, and think it's an awesome idea. I'm convinced it will help new players to get over the barrier to apply for their first char faster, and for some it will make the difference between giving it a try and turning away discouraged.
These are the things that came to my mind:

- the paragraph on sexuality seems a bit stressing the subject, maybe more than needed for a brief introduction. I think it should mention that this isn't a mudsex-all-on-legs game (good job on that) and that there isn't much difference between women and men. To shorten it a bit I'd suggest removing the lines starting with "Attitudes towards sexuality [...] to [...] upper class. since I tend to think that they might be less important for a first char, and could be left for deeper reading later on. On the other hand, as ERS already suggested, so might the entire paragraph.

Someone else mentioned linking in a pointer to the byn, and I'd second that. From what I have heard it's probably the easiest and fastest way into a successful start in a newbie-friendly environment, so in a Quickstart guide I'd give it some emphasis. I'd go as far as giving a brief suggestion to prefer Allanak for the first char for the chance of joining the byn.

Also, I'd wish to see a more outspoken pointer to the helpers, maybe even as much as suggest to discuss the first char concepts and background questions with them. It makes a new player feel so much more welcome if someone is there to answer his questions and his curiosity, and those helpers are in pole-positions when it comes to make the difference if we're going to see a tolkienesque char or a true zalanthan newbie!

I'd end the page with a inviting note that new players shouldn't be intimidated by the application process and mention that the application process [link to http://www.armageddon.org/intro/intro.html] is described in the introductory section [link].

I would leave away the 'music' link, since earlier in the quickstart a combat char was suggested, and roleplaying a bard is a difficult thing. Anyone who'd consider something bard-like as his first char needs to dig a lot deeper than a quickstart intro anyway.

[Morrolan]

I stand against the Byn link.  There is nothing that makes the Byn more tiring than people who think that they have the 'right' to join it.

It is a mercenary company IC, and needs to be treated as such.  Not a sparring spa.  And with too many newbies, they reinforce each other's bad habits.

Morrolan

[Mr.Camel]

I agree with Morrolan. While the byn is a good start for a newbie, I think newbies learn better when spread about the clans and thus interact more with the experianced players.

[Quo]

[...] While the byn is a good start for a newbie, I think newbies learn better when spread about the clans and thus interact more with the experianced players.

For the first char, chances are smaller than for subsequent  (though certainly not impossible) that he'll make it into a clan. This I thought was where the byn offers to jump in.

I don't see it as a place to spar, but as a place where new chars that fit into its settings may learn to recover from their first typos (oops, I meant l not k, get a first glimpse on Armageddon style RP (which will make it a lot easier for their next char to be accepted into another clan), and even see excellent examples how to find ways to work with the code in an ic'ly fitting way, not against it.

[Candi]

LOL  
I'll get you my pretty! And yer little dog too.

(btw, the website looks great.  I think it's good to have anything that will help a new player become more comfortable. A quickstart is better than being over-whelmed after all, and if they want to become good/comfortable, they will read more.  If they don't want to become better, they probably won't be around long anyway. )

[Carnage]

The Byn is considered to be a newbie clan because it's very easy to join. Just throw your three hundred 'sid down and you're in. No interviews, nothing. It'll get you used to the disciplined atmosphere that most clans have, give you the chance to interact with veteran players, and generally put your face into the true grittiness of the game. Playing a gruff, 'sidless mercenary who's just looking for some money to pay off his debts or buy an ale will show you that.

[crymerci]

Just throw your three hundred 'sid down and you're in. No interviews, nothing.

That's not true.  There is an interview, or has been the few times I've had experience with the organization.  I once had a character rejected for the Byn because of her interview.  I think she said something like, "Look, I've got the three hundred 'sid, isn't that enough?"  It wasn't.  Mind you, she was being mouthy because she had reason to not want to join.

[Zhaira]

Two quick things:

1) This is great!  Good idea.

2) It says, "Arnageddon mud" at the bottom ;>

[Zhaira]

3) The mailto link for your name, San, has a ? in front of it.
I.e., mailto:?sanvean@ginka.armageddon.org

[flurry]

Actually..another thought about the sentence

"A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas"

I think there's a grammar problem here.   As it's written, it looks like the Western idea that's hard to abandon is "there is no sexism on Zalanthas".  
And we don't want them to abandon that idea


On the other hand, in that same paragraph, I do really like those examples.   Up the thread, someone mentioned that those types of things do occur in the game, but I don't know - IMHO, those scenarios don't really fit the game world.   Another example that comes to mind is "throwing like a girl".  It would just be hard to make sense of a comment like that in Zalanthas (unless the idea was that someone was throwing like a -child-.)

[John]

Another example that comes to mind is "throwing like a girl".  It would just be hard to make sense of a comment like that in Zalanthas (unless the idea was that someone was throwing like a -child-.)

Throwing like an elf

[EvilRoeSlade]

It is a mercenary company IC, and needs to be treated as such.  Not a sparring spa.  And with too many newbies, they reinforce each other's bad habits.

Morrolan

That's exactly why I don't think we should encourage a concentration of newbies all in one clan.  I realize it's happening anyway, but I don't see why we need to encourage it.

[spawnloser]

"A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas"

I think there's a grammar problem here.   As it's written, it looks like the Western idea that's hard to abandon is "there is no sexism on Zalanthas".  
And we don't want them to abandon that idea

Correct grammar/punctuation for that statement...would be hard, considering we're talking about a statement with passive voice which muddles things to begin with.  I suggest:

Some players have a hard time abandoning Western ideas, but to be clear, there is no sexism on Zalanthas.

[Angela Christine]

How about a line that says simply, "There is no sexism on Zalanthas."

It is a little simplistic and there are exceptions, but put that on a line by itself and I think it would get the point accross.

Or,

"Men and women are physically and socially equal, there is no sexism on Zalanthas.  Nor does anyone care about the living arrangements or sexual orientation of others.  There is plenty of prejudice and intollerance on Zalanthas, however it is based on regional, racial and class differences, not sex."

That gets accross the "no sexism" point without giving the impression that Zalanthans are a bunch of warm, loving, bunny-huggers.  It doesn't over-emphasize the "homosexuality is a-ok" point, giving the impression of a tollerant society, instead saying that no one cares about it.  Zalanthans don't tollerate homosexuality, they just don't give a damn one way or the other.  Marriage and family structure, which could be complicated to explain since it is different than what is common to most readers, is covered simply with the idea that no one cares about your "living arrangements."  It is vague and simplistic, but builds a foundation so they won't be shocked by the norms they encounter in the game world.  Short and sweet, just like me.  :p


Angela Christine

[Quo]

"Men and women are physically and socially equal, there is no sexism on Zalanthas.  Nor does anyone care about the living arrangements or sexual orientation of others.  There is plenty of prejudice and intollerance on Zalanthas, however it is based on regional, racial and class differences, not sex."

My favourite, so far.

[Dan]

Now, back on towards the topic. It is over there... ---->

[My 2 sids]

ShaLeah sent in an idea for this and I liked the idea a lot, so I reworked it some. It's here: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

When ready, it will be linked in on the main page, as well as the Intro section.

Feedback I would like:

1) Are there crucial links that have been left out? I left out some that didn't seem very important to me in order to make the links that are provided more meaningful. Bearing that in mind, are there places you would insert links or information?

2) Are there places this can be tightened/shortened? One of the crucial things about a Quickstart is that it needs to be short and to the point, as well as full of information. Are there things that could be lopped off without too much information being lost?

3) Is there anything else that should be edited/changed? What typos have I missed?

Guess not

You can discriminate on the basis of race, class, wealth, affiliation, ability, magick, psionics, place of birth, profession, equipment, tribe, hair color, skin color, mutation, intelligence..but HEAVENS FORBID you discrimintate on the basis of sex. All the cultures on the game get together and decide this and all agree to stick to it? That seems odd to me. Very...odd.

[Angela Christine]

Of course you can descriminate on anything, it simply isn't the norm.  Obviously a quickstart is going to concentrate on the norms, not on weird fringe elements.

Who discriminates on hair or skin color?  The only time I've seen anything close is if the color is and obvious sign of mutation.  Mutants do get some descrimination, including the blue and purple skinned muties.  Ok, some people scoff at very pale skin, but that isn't so much systematic discrimination as evidence that the pallid freaks are sheltered to an incredible degree.

The problem with incorperating things that are contentious in the real world into the game world is that it will politisise the game world OOCly.  We don't have IC abortion clinics either.  Just look at the trouble people have getting a grip on Zalanthan slavery.

The other problem is that physical stats are not modified by sex, so it would make sense for sex discrimination to have unfolded the same way.  It would be just as likely for men to be considered the inferior or weaker sex.  


AC

Discrimination is based on perceived differences. And men and women are obviously different in most cases. I have no issue with men being considered the weaker sex.  Just saying that this one particular difference is not NORMally noticed by the populace seems strange. It seems more like a playability vs realism thing once again. Don't want to scare off the females etc. So make it so the males are considered the weaker sex, the guys will still probably stay

[Kalden]

Err... why would males be the weaker sex?

Sexual intercourse itself puts the guy in control. It's a hell of a lot easier for a man to rape a woman than a woman to rape a man. That's beside the fact that deadbeat dads abound, and poor women are left to raise their children alone.

The biggest reason a woman would be perceived as weaker is because they have to bear the children, a significant and vital burden for many groups in Zalanthas.

Edit: To me, it seems like women want to follow the traditional, 'realistic' way a woman is. Maternal, sensitive, and usually less dominant than men. You see a hell of a lot of 'aide' women. Kinda like a real-life secretary. Women are usually smaller than men in-game. Petite female NPCs are all over the place. Ect, ect, ect.

Personally, I think it's easier just to have men be men, and women be women, with notable exceptions. Makes it easier to RP.

[flurry]

Discrimination is based on perceived differences. And men and women are obviously different in most cases. I have no issue with men being considered the weaker sex.  Just saying that this one particular difference is not NORMally noticed by the populace seems strange. It seems more like a playability vs realism thing once again. Don't want to scare off the females etc. So make it so the males are considered the weaker sex, the guys will still probably stay

Yes, discrimination is based on perceived differences, but it's also fairly arbitrary.  I'm sure playability is part of the motivation, but it seems as reasonable to me that there's little sexism on Zalanthas as that there's little bias based on which hand you write with on Earth.

I think part of the issue is the sexism is so ingrained into our lives in ways that we hardly notice, that it's hard to imagine a world where it doesn't exist as we see it.  But I don't think there's anything inherently unrealistic about it.

[flurry]

Edit: To me, it seems like women want to follow the traditional, 'realistic' way a woman is. Maternal, sensitive, and usually less dominant than men. You see a hell of a lot of 'aide' women. Kinda like a real-life secretary. Women are usually smaller than men in-game. Petite female NPCs are all over the place. Ect, ect, ect.

It works both ways.   Male characters tend to fall into traditional gender roles just as much as female characters do.   It seems to be almost unavoidable, but it would be nice to see more blurring of the lines.  

Women and men being equal in Zalanthas doesn't mean that Zalanthan men are similar to Earth men, but the Zalanthan women are just more masculine.  

Nor does it mean the Zalanthan women are similar to Earth women, but the Zalanthan men are just more feminine.

For whatever reason, the average Zalanthan man and the average Zalanthan woman are statswise about the same.   I don't think this has to mean that they are indistinguishable in terms of behavior.

[Angela Christine]

Err... why would males be the weaker sex?

Why not?  If their strength is equal, then the weakness is percieved, not actual.

For one thing men have this dangling apendage that is vulnerable and extreemly sensitive to pain.  You can briefly incapacitate a man with blow or firm squeeze to the appendage.  Meanwhile women keep their sensitive reproductive organs safely tucked away.  Breasts are out there, possibly even dangling, but breast are not nearly as vulnerable a target as a penis.  Having your reproductive organs on the outside could be seen as a weakness.

Men are unable to bear children.  Women control which men get to have children, how many and when.  Unless the woman is a slave or somehow incapacited, the man can't have children until a woman consents to it.  Sure, woman need a sperm doner, but it is much easier to convince someone to donate sperm than it is to convince them to donate the use of their body for a year.  Heck, you can get a man drunk and take advantage of him, but you can't -keep- a woman drunk for her entire pregnancy unless you want your child to be an idiot.  Being dependant on another person to carry on your bloodline could be seen as a weakness.

Men are expendable.  If a tribe of 100 men and 100 women is attacked, and half of the people are killed, the tribe will die if all the women are killed but not if all the men are killed.  The men would have to find new mothers for their future offspring, and those mothers would have their own traditions that would warp the culture and history of the tribe.  The woman could adopt a few males into the tribe, just a handfull will be enough to fertilize all the woman without being able to impose their own tradions and culture.  Or the women could seek out sperm donors from other tribes or city folk, and  completely avoid contaminating their village with outsiders.  A tribe can survive as a tribe much the way a pride of lions does: a few males and many females. Extra males are unnecessary.  Being expendable is a weakness.

Men need women more than women need men.  The more needy sex is the weaker.


* * *

Note:  I'm not saying that males actually -are- weaker or inferior to females.  These are just examples of reasons why they could be considered weaker, inferior or more dependant.  On Zalanthas males and females are physically equal, so any discrimination is going to be based on contrived reasoning, not facts.


Think about bears.  I used to live in bear country, up in the rocky mountains.  The male bears are a little larger than the females, but it doesn't matter, when in the woods we were -much- more concerned about encountering a female with cubs than a male.  A bear with cubs or a bitch with pups is much more dangerous than a male.  The cubs aren't a source of weakness, they are a source of calculating berzerker rage.  When a mother is fighting to protect her young she doesn't hold anything back.  We've all heard stories about petite women lifting cars off their babies, imagine what they could do if they were as innately strong as men.  


AC

(Note: Don't lift cars.  The part of the story you don't hear is the women having to go to the hospital after because they've torn themselves up).