Shops opening and closing annoying?

[Tmp]

I was just wondering what the players of armageddon think in general about the fact that some(?) shops open and close at night.

Now instead of being able to shop whenever I want to, I spend time waiting for the damn sun to come up before I can. Sure, it's realistic, as a player I find it highly annoying. It's an inconvenience to the player, especially during the times where I just want to grab an item without having to worry what time it is, or waiting until it's open.

[UnderSeven]

Time moves fast in this game, it's not hard to wait till morning comes when you can go to a shop.  I used to hate the change on hack and slash were night and day were LITERALLY the same, but on arm, it is a rp mud, it does make a difference.  

It was a good call.

[Nadav]

I'm with UnderSeven.. For Arm, a RP mud, it makes perfect sense to have shops that aren't open 24/7 or uh, 9/11 in this case.

[Forest Junkie]

It's annoying as hell sometimes, but I just work around it. No problem really.

[Anonymous]

I like it.  It's only annoying because we've gotten used to things being a different way.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The only problem I have is that most stores seem to have horribly unreasonable hours.

[Medena]

I've played in a game where the banks were closed 11 of the 24 IC hours in a day.  And in this game, the bank was very important as you never wanted to be carrying around excess amounts of coin because there was no way to guard it against theft and there were a lot of thieves.

It was often annoying, but it was realistic and it meant you had to plan things in advance just as in Arm you have to plan journeys into the desert around the city gates opening.

You learn to deal with it.  And it does give more of a feeling of day and night being different.

--Medena

[Tmp]

It's just that ... it feels like it adds so little to the game except another annoying thing that you have to wait around and time for. Most of us with jobs are busy throughout the day, nighttime being relatively free for our own pursuits. Taking away leisure shopping at night feels like a restriction to my choice of activities.

And it's not unplausible that shops open in the big cities 24/7, with a large population encased and protected within the walls from a harsh land outside, surely they must have heard of late-night shopping.

[UnderSeven]

The shops I believe have differeing hours, some might very well be opened all night.  Some maybe more geared toward leisure?  I think your arguement actually managed to speak more FOR having shop hours than against.  

Everything you just said about activities would be a moot point if there wasn't shop hours.

[Lazloth]

And it's not unplausible that shops open in the big cities 24/7, with a large population encased and protected within the walls from a harsh land outside, surely they must have heard of late-night shopping.

..or might serve an important figure while ignoring the commoners, yes, assuming they don't have the staff to buy their groceries [which instantly begs whether the figure is 'important' enough, chuckle].

The only thing I'd've done differently would be to differentiate the timespan among shops and alter the storekeepers' ldescs when closed, or simply have them 'go home' and replaced by the night watchmen.

[Tmp]

The shops I believe have differeing hours, some might very well be opened all night.  Some maybe more geared toward leisure?  I think your arguement actually managed to speak more FOR having shop hours than against.  

When I speak of leisure shopping, I mean me OOCly as the player, having the time to leisurely go for a stroll and take a look at the different items on sale. I don't know if anyone else enjoys that, it's an activity I find very pleasurable. Sometimes I just want to find out (or refresh my memory, I don't go keeping a list of items sold by a shop in a .txt file) if a shop sells a particular item, but when it is closed I can't even list it. The shopkeeper is there, but I can't even ask him whether he sells particular item xyz because he's just an NPC.

I don't really understand how my argument speaks more for having shop hours ...

[Bardex]

My character is supposed to be on a schedule. That means my PC can't get anything from one of the shops except 3 game days a week. Oftentimes those days come when I'm long asleep in rl. I have to disobey orders just to catch the shop open every couple of RL days. If it was a shop that didnt sell anything I needed I wouldn't care but it does so I do. Lucky my superiors are understaning.

[crymerci]

My character is supposed to be on a schedule. That means my PC can't get anything from one of the shops except 3 game days a week. Oftentimes those days come when I'm long asleep in rl. I have to disobey orders just to catch the shop open every couple of RL days. If it was a shop that didnt sell anything I needed I wouldn't care but it does so I do. Lucky my superiors are understaning.

Ok, let's take a real-life example: banks.  Standard banking hours are 8 or 9 in the morning to 5 in the evening.  Of course, most of the time you can use the ATM to do what you need to do, but let's say you need to do something that requires a live bank employee.  You work 8-5 on weekdays.  Therefore you either need to go on Saturday (if your bank has Saturday hours) or on your lunchtime, or take an hour away from your workweek to go.  That is real life.  Things aren't always convenient, and I think this is one case where Arm should reflect reality.

[Delstro]

aren't shop hours supposed to be annoying anywaY?

[Callisto]

The only problem I have is that most stores seem to have horribly unreasonable hours.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Has anybody else ever been baffled by Callisto's practice of quoting somebody and then having no text message of her own?

I've taken to the hypothesis that the dancing pig in the signature is meant to be a response to the quoted text.

[darksheep]

I think the way that shops are done now is just fine. It's not that inconvenient; absolute necessities like food and water are always available, and major chain stores like Salarr and Kadius are always open. I think it reflects life in a nice way that adds to RP. In real life you have the 24/7 Wallmarts and 7-11s, and then you have the smaller stores that open and close based on time. The game does a good job of mirroring that without overly inconveniencing players.

[Bardex]

Ok, let's take a real-life example: banks.  Standard banking hours are 8 or 9 in the morning to 5 in the evening.  Of course, most of the time you can use the ATM to do what you need to do, but let's say you need to do something that requires a live bank employee.  You work 8-5 on weekdays.  Therefore you either need to go on Saturday (if your bank has Saturday hours) or on your lunchtime, or take an hour away from your workweek to go.  That is real life.  Things aren't always convenient, and I think this is one case where Arm should reflect reality.

Understandable. If it took less real time to get to the shop I'd go on my character's lunch time. But with the movement delay....you can't get there and back in such a short period. And the whole saturday thing, in real life you don't spend the entire day asleep or "unavailable" (logged out).

[Anonymous]

Understandable. If it took less real time to get to the shop I'd go on my character's lunch time. But with the movement delay....you can't get there and back in such a short period.

The city holds 500k people.  If anything, I think there isn't enough movement delay to represent that, but I'm not a masochist.

I imagine Allanak to be bigger than Boston which has the benefit of stacking it's population in highrise apartment buildings.  And there is no way you could walk from one side to the other in the course of a morning like you can do in game.

[Bardex]

How can you compare a modern city with mass transportation and a branch of every bank in the world on every 5th city block with Allanak? Why would you? That's silly. Forget real world stuff it doesnt apply. Point is, an "hour" of lunchtime isn't enough time to do much of anything beside refill your waterskin and grab a bite to eat in Zalanthas. Plus the bank idea is crymercis not mine. I don't know where in my hometown they sell skins and shards of obsidian and poisons and herbs and broken pot shards and stringy masses of guts all in one hut. When I find one to compare it with I'll let you know.

[Anonymous]

How can you compare a modern city with mass transportation and a branch of every bank in the world on every 5th city block with Allanak? Why would you? That's silly. Forget real world stuff it doesnt apply. Point is, an "hour" of lunchtime isn't enough time to do much of anything beside refill your waterskin and grab a bite to eat in Zalanthas. Plus the bank idea is crymercis not mine. I don't know where in my hometown they sell skins and shards of obsidian and poisons and herbs and broken pot shards and stringy masses of guts all in one hut. When I find one to compare it with I'll let you know.

Yeah, I think I misread you.  My bad.

[Angela Christine]

Hmm, no poll option for it is annoying -and- realistic?  Bummer.

I'm pro-shop hours, but I'd like to see some changes.

1.  

Most shops should be open for 6 of the 9 hours per day.  One shop I use opens at late morning and closes at late afternoon, so she's only open 3 hours a day!  Lazy bitch.  :evil:  And what kind of lunatic would work only during the heat of midday?  I don't care if you open at dusk and work until late morning to avoid the midday heat, or open at dawn and close at dusk to avoid the darkness, but hard working commoner's shops should be open 5 or 6 hours a day.

2.  Add "talk hours" to the scripts of all shopkeepers that close.  The shopkeeper is still there and will talk even when closed, so it shouldn't be hard to add a line informing the public of their operating hours.  Or there could be a sign showing the position of the sun throughout the day with the open hours marked off (you don't need literacy for a sign like that).  Or instead of saying "I'm closed, come back later" when you try to deal with him, he could say "I'm closed, come back at High Sun" or whatever his opening hours are.  Having opperating hours is realistic, but having to camp in a shop all day to find out the hours is unrealistic.  Shopkeepers have no reason to conceal this information, and every reason to advertise it. [/list]

I've "idea"ed these in game, but since there are over 2000 items in the idea list I doubt anyone will read them this year.    Still, I think these two simple changes would make the hours much less anoying and increase their realism.


Angela Christine

[Gorobei]

I've "idea"ed these in game, but since there are over 2000 items in the idea list I doubt anyone will read them this year.    

Angela Christine

I believe that new ideas almost always get read.  I idea taste and sniff messages often, and they almost always go in on the very next saturday.

[Carnage]

Has anybody else ever been baffled by Callisto's practice of quoting somebody and then having no text message of her own?

Actually, it's a shorthand way of stating an opinion that reflects your own that someone else has posted. It's not exactly a complex concept to comprehend.

[Gilvar]

Its a great change actually... and encourages realistic behavior. Its no more of an inconvience to the players then making death permanent, or any of the number of other things that add to a simulated realism. (I say simulated so that the realism nazi's don't jump on me about... "Well there are no giant insects or magick in real life.") Its realistic to the simulation that shopkeepers close. Not everything is an AM/PM.

I fail to see the commotion over this change as opposed to the many other things that over the years that have formed the trend that caused this change to happen.

-Gilvar

[da mitey warrior]

I'm against the change.  I have better things to do with my limited time than camping out at a shop waiting for it to open.

[Tamarin]

I think if the day hours were extended, and the night hours shortened, I would be ok with it.  I think that a lot of the vendors (i.e. not shops) should definitely pack up during the night.

And if stores close down for the night, you should not be able to walk into them, in my humble opinion.  They should be -closed-.  Not just not selling stuff.

[UnderSeven]

It might be neat if they were closed down differently yes, but as far as waiting?  Give me a break, if you catch the VERY start of dusk, the next morning isn't very long away, we're talking 20 mins? Maybe?  I mean arm time flies.

[Angela Christine]

It might be neat if they were closed down differently yes, but as far as waiting?  Give me a break, if you catch the VERY start of dusk, the next morning isn't very long away, we're talking 20 mins? Maybe?  I mean arm time flies.

From dusk to dawn is three hours: dusk, late at night, before dawn.  That means at least 30 minutes.  As mentioned, many stores are not open from Dawn to Dusk, if they were I'd be happy as a fly in shit.  Some shops open at Early Morning, Late Morning, even High Sun.  And those are just the typical shops, some more esoteric shops keep stranger hours.  There is litterally no way of knowing when a given shop will open or close except to camp in the shop for a cycle, which could take an hour or more.  Wasting time walking to a closed shop is annoying as hell.  Having to camp out to learn the hours and then keep a record OOCly so you know when all of the dozens of shops in the game will be open is also annoying.

The shop hours should be obvious.

Every regular shop should be open at least 5 or 6 hours of the 9 hour day.


AC

[Gilvar]

I will make it a mission of mine to add a talk prog to as many shopkeepers as I can adequetely change that allows you to ask them their hours. May take a while to get going, and I'll let everyone know when they can start trying this... (if its possible).

[Anonymous]

The city holds 500k people. If anything, I think there isn't enough movement delay to represent that, but I'm not a masochist.

If that's what the movement delay is intended to be for....then what in the hell is the movement lag outdoors for?

Anyways, I'm for the added realism for night and day. Now if only the crim code could be altered to reflect the decrease of vnpcs on the streets at night...*sigh*

[Angela Christine]

Gilvar is cool.  Maybe I'll make up a limeric about hir.  Gilvar rhymes with silver, right?

Anyways, I'm for the added realism for night and day. Now if only the crim code could be altered to reflect the decrease of vnpcs on the streets at night...*sigh*

Bah.  I think the population would vary based on the interaction between the time of day and the weather.  

When it is stormy, yes, everyone would want to be inside before dark.  You can barely see during the day, so you could get lost on your own street at night, because it is so dark and stormy that a torch does not help.  

On the other hand when it is hot and clear, I think that many people would choose to work through the night, and rest during the heat of the day.  On a clear night you can often see without a torch, so the darkness is not a major problem for people moving around inside the city.  So during a wave of hot clear weather, there might actually be more people out at night than at midday.  At midday people take a seista, the water cost is just too high to work (and sweat) in very hot weather.

AC

[UnderSeven]

Wowowow, I love it AC,

So maybe we should be considering arm a more night time based culture.  I remeber reading somewhere that people in deserts travel at night because in the day it's quite simply impossible, but yet on arm it seems to be quite the opposite.

People will hate me for this, but maybe there should be larger penalities for being out in the heat. . teehee
0

[Twilight]

I don't like it that shops aren't open 24 hours in real life, I'm not sure why I should like it on the MUD.  I find it fine if I am logging in for 1+ hour sessions.  If I am logging in for 10-20 min sessions I find it extremely annoying.  As long as it is only kind of the periphery shops, it is definately liveable though.

[Petra]

I dislike it.  To me, it sacrifices playability for realism.  The biggest flaw, I find, with Arm is the amount of time it takes to do anything.  The game demands hours and hours of attention.  I've seen standard desert training sessions in various clans take up to 4 real hours from start to finish and all that was accomplished in that time was mounting up, going on a short expidition, slaughtering a few gith (or whatever), and returning.  I would prefer not to be restrained in this manner for something which (in my opinion) adds a scant measure of realism, at best.

[UnderSeven]

I disagree, first let me point out your example holds little relevance.

The difference is when you are talking about multiple pc exercsions it takes time to account for the fact many people are having to play in sync with one another.

Shop opening and closing is on a very clearly defined time ration and I believe most the time they are even opened.  To boot arm days and nights don't last that long in real life and finally, we already don't treat them differently enough except to note that in the night sometimes you can't see.  No, this is a great feature, but I think it still needs a little work.

Shops need more realistic hours, for instance if people work from dawn till dusk as laborers, than the shops are likely going to try to be opened for the people when they get off work, rather than closing up themselves.  In addition I believe Petra was comming from a byn point of view who DOES have to work during the day in arm and likely sees more closed than opened.  This maybe should be a touch adjusted.

[Candi]

I think the store hours are a bitch and therefore exactly like real life. It's just as frustrating in game as it is out.  :shock:

It also seems like the higher brow shops should have the most limited hours, while those who are seemingly struggling to keep themselves afloat would keep longer hours out of sheer necessity.  After all, if you need to sell those bandanas to keep yourself fed, you're a little more motivated to stay out there and find a buyer.

I dislike it. To me, it sacrifices playability for realism.  

There is the quandry for those people with limited RL time trying to juggle online necessities for their characters.  Added restraints like this one definately make it even more frustrating.   :?  You have to feel sorry for them since it can really take the fun out of the game.  It's a choice between convenience (adding to the enjoyment/"playability") and realism (adding to the drama/intensity).  It seems most gamers are going to end up voting for realism when it comes down to it.  Hey, it's no consolation...but I feel for you.  

So maybe we should be considering arm a more night time based culture.  I remeber reading somewhere that people in deserts travel at night because in the day it's quite simply impossible, but yet on arm it seems to be quite the opposite.

I think that this is definately the more realistic approach.  It makes sense in a desert environment that evenings and early mornings would be peak.  This is probably a good topic for a thread of it's own.  Could this even lead to some form night-time lighting in the main drags?  

[Anonymous]

Shops need more realistic hours, for instance if people work from dawn till dusk as laborers, than the shops are likely going to try to be opened for the people when they get off work, rather than closing up themselves.  In addition I believe Petra was comming from a byn point of view who DOES have to work during the day in arm and likely sees more closed than opened.  This maybe should be a touch adjusted.

I dunno, that seems a little too much like a RL concept that doesn't hold up in Zalanthan terms.  I think the vast majority of jobs out there aren't punch in and punch out jobs, other than maybe those who work in the obsidian mines but I'm not sure if those aren't all slaves.  Anyways, I imagine a lot of people are kept busy from dawn till dusk but could very well get an hour or three to run to the bazaar every now and then when need be.  Factoring into it that a shopkeeper who works throughout the night is increasing their operational costs by having to provide sufficient enough light sources to allow their customers to see during the dark hours.

That and since most commoners don't have two sids to rub together, the working stiffs probably aren't the target demographic for your average seller.