How to improve crime code?

[Gabriel]

What I'd really like to see is a more flexible crime code. The crime code right now is terribly primitive. The militia takes the word of an VNPC %100, in an instant, but they blow off PCs. The guards are overly pumped up. A high status, wealthy person can't have an upstart beaten, even if the offender spits in their face. It'd be nice to see more muggers, more spice-dealers, more local gangs, even human ones, but as it is, the crime code restricts that. House guards are mostly useless. A flexible, intricate crime code would be awesome.

But perhaps impossible to code, or nearly so. How would you set it up?

-Each character needs to have a codewise status characteristic assigned. Status of commoners defaults to zero. Officers/nobles/etc can arbitrarily assign status to subordinates in their organization; guidelines for typical status of various archetypes posted by imms for general reference. Status of independents and organization heads adjusted by imms on request.

-Guards do not enforce crimes when the offender is more than X status ranks higher than the victim; X varies depending on the severity of the crime.

-Locations can also be assigned status values; these could be used to have NPC bouncers automatically block scum from entering the fancy ballroom, to set a different threshold for enforceable crimes (allowing the 'brawling room' feature to become part of the status system), and so forth.

-'Nak status doesn't count for anything, or perhaps only for partial value, in Tuluk; how many different status domains would there need to be?

-A bribing mechanism can be used to temporarily increase effective status.

-Guards/servants are assumed to have their master's rank in such incidents? How does code know the guard is acting on master's orders versus attacking on his own initiative? A codewise "order myguard maim|kill insolentcommoner" command issued by the noble?

[Quirk]

-Each character needs to have a codewise status characteristic assigned. Status of commoners defaults to zero.

It would need to be slightly more complex than that. A 'Rinther half-breed or elf will have marginally less status than a 'Rinther human, who would probably have roughly equal status to a commoner independent half-breed, who would have lower status than a commoner independent human. Your bourgeois little artisans will likely have a higher status than hunters, mercenaries, etc. This could all be affected to some degree by the costliness of the items being worn by the character, which we already have means to calculate as per the 'Rinth scripts. There'd be a reason to flaunt your wealth - the guards are more likely to intercede on behalf of the well-dressed.

Officers/nobles/etc can arbitrarily assign status to subordinates in their organization; guidelines for typical status of various archetypes posted by imms for general reference. Status of independents and organization heads adjusted by imms on request.

Unnecessary I think. The simplest method would be to attach a status to the ranks held in any clan, and independents would just have to dress well to show off how influential they are. Of course, secretive ranks such as Special Ops and ranks in non-local clans would be of no account.

-Guards do not enforce crimes when the offender is more than X status ranks higher than the victim; X varies depending on the severity of the crime.

Yeah, that seems somewhat workable.

-'Nak status doesn't count for anything, or perhaps only for partial value, in Tuluk; how many different status domains would there need to be?

'Nak, Tuluk, Red Storm, perhaps Ten'Sarak.

-A bribing mechanism can be used to temporarily increase effective status.

Hmm, I like and dislike this. You'd really need to bribe after the crime was committed, so it would be a mechanism for bribing soldiers who're dragging you off to jail. I'd need to think about that - I can see some very annoyed PC templars finding the person they ordered taken away had flown the coop thanks to a bribe. Perhaps awkward to implement.

-Guards/servants are assumed to have their master's rank in such incidents? How does code know the guard is acting on master's orders versus attacking on his own initiative? A codewise "order myguard maim|kill insolentcommoner" command issued by the noble?

The code doesn't have to. House guards could be assumed to be acting on their master's orders, much as militia are presently assumed to be on duty at all times. If word got back to their superiors of an unauthorised killing or beating, it would be up to the House to discipline them.

This isn't necessarily as nasty to implement from a codewise perspective as it might at first appear. Calculating status for the PC population wouldn't be hard, you'd need a table of clannings and backgrounds plus a "costliness" factor for how well-dressed they are and it would be trivial to generate an on-the-fly value for their status locally. I'm not sure how easy it would be to fit to NPCs, though. There are clan flags for NPCs, and you could use the "well-dressed" factor too, so it might be achievable without vast effort.

Another aspect to consider might be the number of previous convictions?

Quirk

[Gabriel]

-A bribing mechanism can be used to temporarily increase effective status.

Hmm, I like and dislike this. You'd really need to bribe after the crime was committed, so it would be a mechanism for bribing soldiers who're dragging you off to jail. I'd need to think about that - I can see some very annoyed PC templars finding the person they ordered taken away had flown the coop thanks to a bribe. Perhaps awkward to implement.

No, you bribe beforehand or you miss your chance. "Be prepared!" is the Bribe Scout's motto. There would have to be bribe-acceptance functionality in place for ready access, either a scattering of 'real' guards to bribe in various locations or a virtual bribe function of some sort. You're bribing them to look the other way while you do the deed... not to let you go after they bust you for it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A 'Rinther half-breed or elf will have marginally less status than a 'Rinther human, who would probably have roughly equal status to a commoner independent half-breed, who would have lower status than a commoner independent human.

That sounds WAY out of line to me.

I don't like the crime-code, but I'm not interested in changing it so that noble's guards can kill people whenever they want.  Because they aren't supposed to do that.  When a noble wants somebody killed or beaten, they either assassinate them secretly, or have a templar do it.  Their guards generally have nothing to do with the equation.

It seems like people are trying to make it more fun to be a guard for a noble house, but I would rather see the role be greatly diminished or abolished entirely.  In most cases, an NPC can do a guards work just as well (letting people into and out of the compound, and beating up anybody who attacks their charge, namely) as a PC, with the added benefit that they won't get bored or desire to log off.  Also, I don't think the game benefits from having twelve different clans, when most of their warrior positions are exactly the same.  I'd be much happier if people who wanted to play warriors were streamlined to the militia, House Tor, and T'zai Byn.  I won't touch the merchant houses right now, and I don't know anything about Tuluk (I took a break from it ever since I saw a noble ask to hold a commoner's baby).

[Bestatte]

A thought:

Add an "pcorder" command for nobles and templars. This would allow PC nobles and templars to order -only- their clanned PC guards to actively instigate the combat command against anyone who is -not- either a noble or templar, or a noble or templar's clanned guard (PC or otherwise).

Both noble/templar and their clanned PC guard would have to be in the same room, and the guard would have to be code-wise guarding their noble/templar. Otherwise the command wouldn't work (since you can still be "guard"ing someone who isn't in the same room as you once they walk away or you walk away).

In this way, someone who emotes holding a knife out in a threatening manner and waving it at a noble would be subject to the guard kicking his ass, without the guard ending up with a crim-flag. The guard would not be allowed to do this on his own. He would HAVE to be ordered by his noble or templar employer first.

A guard's primary function is to protect his charge from harm and potential harm. If some guy's waving a knife in Lord Foofy's face, but doesn't engage the combat code, it doesn't make the guy any less of a threat RP-wise. And the noble should certainly have the right to protect himself with the guard he's paying good sids to do exactly that.

[My 2 sids]

I'd like to make a few suggestions on the crime code.  I think it would be worth it to put a lot more into the code because it may allow for more people to become more involved.  As well as it might provide more plot and role-play potential.

First, I'd like to see them try to capture more people than simply killing them.  In the spir of a moment it can be hard to remember to turn on "nosave" in the matter of two seconds, not to mention lag time.  I personally would rather see npcs with outstanding subdue skills.  (Please don't make fun of the code-challenged player) but maybe something like this?  NPC soldiers always subdue first.  That gives the player a bit more time to react, if they wish flee or give up.  They can always try to break away from the soldier or they can try to attack, in which case then the soldier chops them into tiny pieces.

Second, I kind of like the idea of assigned status.  Social ranking is a big part of the game and so the crime code should reflect this.  Maybe it doesn't have to be that detailed, but I think a simple code that takes social rank could be used.  Race, clans, accent could all be assigned a number.  Based on that number you could either have yourself dragged into the jails or have your clan notified.  "The xx-xxxx soldier asks you for your name, title, and house; then releases you."  Or, if you have money:  "The xx-xxx soldier asks for your name and bank account; you are charged 100 coins."  Or you're just dragged off to jail.
I think if the clan would be notified every time someone was arrested, it would add plot and role-play.   Again, once the character is subdued it gives time to have your character react.  Maybe some sort of echo breaking in with choices?  "You: 1. attempt to flee  2. attempt to fight  3. Try a bribe  4. Submit and wish to notify your house."  I know this all sounds very complicated.  But if it could be done, think about how much it could add to the game! :twisted:

Finally, I'd like to see the jail itself changed.  Perhaps instead of keeping people locked up for so long, other things could change.  For instance, OOCly people would be locked up only for a minute or two.  Icly there could be a chance that they get in a fight in the jail, get stripped of everything: coins, food, water, clothing, die (something like 1/100 chance, but enough to strike fear in people), instantly become start to become hungry/ thirsty etc.  That, and I think anyone working for the templarate (templars and high ranking soldiers) should be notified that someone has been jailed. This way they could choose to come try to get a bribe or have fun with the jailed person.

[UnderSeven]

Man jaded anyone?

I have to say Shade had some good points, some bad.  Unfortunately, despite having just read the thread (and being able to scroll down to read it again) I've already managed to forget almost everything he said.  At least the positive and of course I'm assumeing it's a he.  

Now then, I think some of the ideas above were interesting, but more or less, the crim code, templars, militia, who gets away with what, this is all political stuff.  For instance, say noble X bribes templar Y to look the other way when guards Z kill rinther T.  Result?  A crim code system that is BARE BONES in order to allow pc politics to affect how things work.

These new changes would unfortunately, allow many players to act in a way without having to play the political game in the first place.  I rather think that's a bad idea.

More or less I think crim code should stay as simple as possible.  Yes, it's not nessicarily realistic that a vnpcs word is taken, but then again HOW MANY ROOMS HAVE JUST ONE VNPC IN THEM!?  None.  If a room has so few other people in them, they would be represented by a npc.  That means when a vnpc reports a crime, it's actually probably more like twenty reporting a crime.

Next on the list.  How ever guard in the city instantly knows.  This is more to do with playability than anything else.  The fact is, they're npcs, they're stupid.  They won't cordinate to chase you down, they won't track likely places, they won't ask around for you.  Would you rather all the npcs were aware you commited a crime (and then you could just hide a few rooms away) or would you rather actual pcs were aware.  Probably most would say pcs as it would include more interaction, but on a purely code level, npcs are less likely to actually catch you.
(P.S. it's not really bad rp to hide a few rooms away with say a hood up because if oyu rp ed it right you could just be blending with the multitudes of vnpcs)

Ultimately, while some listed ideas were nice, I think the clutter it would add to the code and minor changes it would do to play wouldn't improve the game.

Therefore I'd be against any of these changes.

[Quirk]

A 'Rinther half-breed or elf will have marginally less status than a 'Rinther human, who would probably have roughly equal status to a commoner independent half-breed, who would have lower status than a commoner independent human.

That sounds WAY out of line to me.

I don't like the crime-code, but I'm not interested in changing it so that noble's guards can kill people whenever they want.  Because they aren't supposed to do that.  When a noble wants somebody killed or beaten, they either assassinate them secretly, or have a templar do it.  Their guards generally have nothing to do with the equation.

That's the way it is from necessity. Arguably it is not the way it should be. I'll spare you the parallels with bits of medieval Europe/Asia, etc, but the reason why a noble cannot have a dirty 'Rinth rat who's caused her grief done away with is because the crim-code protects the people that ICly the militia wouldn't care about, not for any sensible IC reason. Assassinations should be reserved for people who matter - the richer merchants, other nobles or their aides, people with some status in the world. Currently the Noble Houses are fairly toothless against the lower classes of society - they can either go to speak with their friendly neighbourhood templar who may or may not be online and may or may not be on good terms with them, or hire an assassin who will go to great lengths to avoid being caught killing a penniless mercenary.

I would suggest that given the numbers of House guards as PCs, NPCs and VNPCs in the world so far, they are not designed merely to be escorts for their nobles, but to be the big bluff unsubtle muscle of the House.

Quirk

[X-D]

Well, at first I'm thinking, good idea, not too hard to do, make a table, write scripts to handle the table. Course you need to code the table values into something that will asign the flags on char creation, or that is something staff would have to do, hhhhmm, no, it would just be stuck to race then mod'd when you pick starting point, well, believe it of not, you done a large amount of code/script work just to get to this point and we have not even got into the guard scripts, plus scripts for changing status when entering the employ of a house, and will a human house guard have a diff status then a dwarf house guard? I begin to run into many many variables that would need to be handled, and that is just in one city, making this idea actually a MASSIVE undertaking.

Guard bribing, well, not sure if I think a coded method to bribe npc guards is a good idea, better maybe to stick with dealing with the pc militia/legion/templarate.

[UnderSeven]

That's the way it is from necessity. Arguably it is not the way it should be. I'll spare you the parallels with bits of medieval Europe/Asia, etc, but the reason why a noble cannot have a dirty 'Rinth rat who's caused her grief done away with is because the crim-code protects the people that ICly the militia wouldn't care about, not for any sensible IC reason. Assassinations should be reserved for people who matter - the richer merchants, other nobles or their aides, people with some status in the world. Currently the Noble Houses are fairly toothless against the lower classes of society - they can either go to speak with their friendly neighbourhood templar who may or may not be online and may or may not be on good terms with them, or hire an assassin who will go to great lengths to avoid being caught killing a penniless mercenary.

I would suggest that given the numbers of House guards as PCs, NPCs and VNPCs in the world so far, they are not designed merely to be escorts for their nobles, but to be the big bluff unsubtle muscle of the House.

Ahhh, you forget that the nobles/militia/templarate are way out numbered by the common people.  It's already so that the militia and templarete don't favor the common people, many feel repressed but obey out of fear.  Often a templarate will make the threat, 'Want to know how it is to live out of the protection of the highlord?"

Now lets say they did what Quirk said and code wise didn't care. The result?  Commoners would eventually get sick of it and revolt.  The templarate know this and therefore give the common people the BARE MINIMUM of protection.

This means noble guards don't slay people in the street. Maybe nobles do, but even then it wouldn't be a good idea to do commonly.  And it's not like noble guards can't get away with it, they just have to make it worth templar whiles.  See previous post by me .  

Lastly I disagree completely with Roe shade about the limiting fighting orders. My first question his how the hell would you do that short of telling pcs they couldn't make a clan?  All of a sudden pc x wants to make a fighting clan but imm y (who is ooc to pcs anyway) says no because we limit number of clans and then pc x is faced with a invisible glass cieling and no ic reason why it wouldn't work?

That's total bs, I know of muds that ultalize methods like that and they don't have nearly the player base of arm.  

Thumbs down to that ERS

[Quirk]

Now then, I think some of the ideas above were interesting, but more or less, the crim code, templars, militia, who gets away with what, this is all political stuff.  For instance, say noble X bribes templar Y to look the other way when guards Z kill rinther T.  Result?  A crim code system that is BARE BONES in order to allow pc politics to affect how things work.

These new changes would unfortunately, allow many players to act in a way without having to play the political game in the first place.  I rather think that's a bad idea.

A noble should not have to interact with a templar in order to get permission to kill a 'Rinther. A flourishing independent merchant with powerful friends, maybe, or someone working for another House, but there is no reason that politics *should* come into it with poor flea-ridden scum. I don't see that "playing the political game" adds anything at all in the instance quoted. Zalanthan laws ICly are meant to be flexible and upheld at the templars' discretion. If someone below the templars' notice is injured unlawfully, it's up to them or their friends to play the political game with the templars to bring it to their notice.

I like politics, but I think they have to be handled with some measure of realism.

Quirk

[Quirk]

Ahhh, you forget that the nobles/militia/templarate are way out numbered by the common people.  It's already so that the militia and templarete don't favor the common people, many feel repressed but obey out of fear.  Often a templarate will make the threat, 'Want to know how it is to live out of the protection of the highlord?"

Now lets say they did what Quirk said and code wise didn't care. The result?  Commoners would eventually get sick of it and revolt.  The templarate know this and therefore give the common people the BARE MINIMUM of protection.

No, no they likely wouldn't revolt.

You're describing most of recorded human history here. The warrior elite and the nobility they serve have always been the minority. You're looking at this from a modern democratic point of view, and that's not the way Arm is. The upper classes have done as they wished across the entire world, and because the people with the weapons and the training were in their pay, they've got away with it.

There has been the odd revolt, yes. Wat Tyler rebelled in 1381, but that was not merely because the peasants lacked rights, nor merely that the taxes put on them were excruciatingly high, but that the tax collector stripped his daughter naked and assaulted her in a bid to prove she was of taxable age. The revolt he led was crushed and the situation continued much as before.

This is a poor, illiterate populace, not a bunch of highly educated people brought up on what their rights are. Rebellion would be very unlikely.

Quirk

[Lazloth]

A noble should not have to interact with a templar in order to get permission to kill a 'Rinther.

Severity of crime is something that is being overlooked in this discussion as well; folks are limiting discussion to assault.

There are some salient points here (the above quote being one of the arguments with which I am in agreement), but by and large, this proposal doesn't address the problems with arm's crimcode in a neat fashion.

[My 2 sids]

You're describing most of recorded human history here. The warrior elite and the nobility they serve have always been the minority. You're looking at this from a modern democratic point of view, and that's not the way Arm is. The upper classes have done as they wished across the entire world, and because the people with the weapons and the training were in their pay, they've got away with it.

These quotes always irk me.  People, the game has to have some basis in reality, otherwise no one could play.  This isn't historical so much as human law.  It has nothing to do with democracy, as revolts were around long before democratic means.  If you want "docs" to justify the idea that the general poplulation will accept only so much... check out:

The Templars need the Nobility, and the Nobility know it. The commoners are far more accepting of a wealthy but normal ruling class than they are of Tektolnes and his mystic minions, who tend to terrify, and not comfort, them.

People don't mind giving up power, people can even learn how to value one set of people over another.  They cannot, however, accept terrible abuse without getting anything in return.

[Gabriel]

Severity of crime is something that is being overlooked in this discussion as well; folks are limiting discussion to assault.

-Guards do not enforce crimes when the offender is more than X status ranks higher than the victim; X varies depending on the severity of the crime.

There are some salient points here... but by and large, this proposal doesn't address the problems with arm's crimcode in a neat fashion.

How so, how not, what do you see as those problems, and what would you suggest as an alternative solution? Fancying up "I don't like it" is not a substantive contribution to the discussion.

[Quirk]

You're describing most of recorded human history here. The warrior elite and the nobility they serve have always been the minority. You're looking at this from a modern democratic point of view, and that's not the way Arm is. The upper classes have done as they wished across the entire world, and because the people with the weapons and the training were in their pay, they've got away with it.

These quotes always irk me.  People, the game has to have some basis in reality, otherwise no one could play.  This isn't historical so much as human law.  It has nothing to do with democracy, as revolts were around long before democratic means.  If you want "docs" to justify the idea that the general poplulation will accept only so much...

I fail to see what the point is that you're making. Yes, there is a point at which the general population would possibly rebel, although while they depend on Tektolnes and his minions for their water, that point is likely to be pretty hard to get to. Are you suggesting that the nobles throwing their weight around and having the law on their side would be more than the general population would accept? Laws favouring a privileged few and letting them do what they like have been the case in the vast majority of human societies, and revolts have only come when that power has been egregriously abused even by the standards of the time.

The nobles are, as the docs you just mentioned state, a "ruling class". With that comes the power of a ruling class. The commoners will see them as part of the reason that there is any order in the city, a humanising influence on the fearsome templars who control the water distribution, and most of all a set of people who are "better" than themselves. Should an acquaintance fall foul of one, that the law finds in the favour of the superior person will not be a surprise. Were there no laws to protect the moderately well-off commoners from the depredations of thieves, it might be another matter, but the law being scant protection from the nobility is not going to lead to uprisings.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Okay...you want basis in human history?  Ancient Egypt, where the nobility were gods unto the people.  The nobility was better than the common person...this was not just believed, but KNOWN to be truth by those in both castes.  Was there ever a revolt in Ancient Egypt?

Now, back to the crim-code issue at hand.  I like many of these suggestions, but see the coding effort required to implement many of them to be a bit of a turn off...unless any of the IMMs wanted to do this, I would just let this one go.  There are other things that need some addressing first...like the fact that when a militia NPC tries to arrest you that they end up trying, failing, drawing weapons and killing you all in one prompt before you can type 'nosave on' to save your worthless skin so that you can THEN bribe the robe-wearing freaks back at the jail.

[Quirk]

There are other things that need some addressing first...like the fact that when a militia NPC tries to arrest you that they end up trying, failing, drawing weapons and killing you all in one prompt before you can type 'nosave on' to save your worthless skin so that you can THEN bribe the robe-wearing freaks back at the jail.

This is admittedly higher priority still, and a very good point. I don't think the coding effort would be that great though - more work would need done on the building side (e.g. clan status tables) than the coding methinks.

Quirk

[X-D]

I don't think the coding effort would be that great though - more work would need done on the building side (e.g. clan status tables) than the coding methinks.

Do you work with code/script at all Quirk?

This would involve some hard code changes to the mud along with scripts.
The scripts themselves would only be maybe middle hard to deal with, even with the large variable number, but the real problem is with the volume.
Two, maybe three cities have to be dealt with, possibly even a 4th in the future, these cities are enough different to require seperate tables and scripts. Where ever you think the work would be, there would be a lot of it.

[Quirk]

I don't think the coding effort would be that great though - more work would need done on the building side (e.g. clan status tables) than the coding methinks.

Do you work with code/script at all Quirk?

Coding in C for the last 8 years or so, C++ about 4, currently a professional developer with about 3 years of commercial experience, former coder for Harshlands over about 9 months. So that's a yes.

This would involve some hard code changes to the mud along with scripts.
The scripts themselves would only be maybe middle hard to deal with, even with the large variable number, but the real problem is with the volume.
Two, maybe three cities have to be dealt with, possibly even a 4th in the future, these cities are enough different to require seperate tables and scripts. Where ever you think the work would be, there would be a lot of it.

The actual criminal code comparison, given a couple of status numbers, would be pretty easy, a couple of tens of lines of code to handle the different crime types and results. The function to determine the status would be similarly trivial, given a look up table of clans, ranks and other modifiers. We're not talking about complex scripting here.

The creation of the tables (neither scripting nor coding) would be rather more effort, but I'd be surprised if it ran over a hundred different numbers per city. Certainly it would be a few hours of work, but I suspect the main time taken would be in going over those numbers among the imms to reach consensus on the modifiers.

This assumes that NPCs could be handled neatly through already extant flags. If this were not the case, there would be far too much building work to even consider the idea.

Quirk

[X-D]

Alright, lets sum it up then.

30 or so lines of code added and or changes to an already quite complex system, with maybe two people on staff capable of doing it.

I think you under estimate the amount of script writing, as I said before, not complex scripts, but a LOT of them. I can think of at least 16 right off the top of my head.

Lets say the tables are well under 100, call it 60 items in a table per city, still 180-240 items, rather hefty, I could build quite a few rooms in the time it takes to do that.

And I have no idea what the current possible npc flag status looks like but I'm betting that would need some work too, since I think pretty much all they have now is citizenship and zone, shrug.

And you don't think this would be a major undertaking?
Now, I'm not saying the idea is bad at all, in fact, I'd love such a thing, A noble player (in allanak) should have the ability to have somebody at least beaten to within an inch of his life, and a higher noble from a higher noble house should be able to have them killed (though there would have to be something, a command by the noble to enable a temp raise in status for the guard, as the guard would not have the same rights if the noble did not order it or was not around). A rinthi elf should fear pissing even normal human commoners off, knowing he might get his ass kicked then get thrown in jail. The fact that the crim code right now is so limited that it just targets the(coded) aggresser regardless of race and social standing sucks. I've more then once seen this scene in the gaj and the barrel.

Elf comes in, sneers at people makes rude remarks, steals some items, is called out on it, laughes in faces, gets attacked, half-giants come rushing in, haul off the attacker (A human Oashe guard in one instance) Elf walks off without a mark and with the stolen goods. This would Not be IMO, if nothing else they should both be hauled off, the human for breaking the law, the elf well, for being involved and being an elf. Hell, I'd make sure they got thrown in the same cell, maybe even have a random chance they get tossed directly into the arena.

Yes the crim codes need fixing, and I even think it should be a high priority, but every option offered to date either is too little to matter or simply a huge undertaking.

[Quirk]

I think you under estimate the amount of script writing, as I said before, not complex scripts, but a LOT of them. I can think of at least 16 right off the top of my head.

No need to handle any of it in scripts. It can all be dealt with in code. I'm curious as to which scripts you think need updated? The guards don't need to have it handled in their scripts, all they know is that someone with a crim-flag is present.

Lets say the tables are well under 100, call it 60 items in a table per city, still 180-240 items, rather hefty, I could build quite a few rooms in the time it takes to do that.

Well, you're looking at essentially a long line of numbers appended to already existing house ranks. Sure, you could perhaps build four or five unique rooms in the same time. I think this would impact the game vastly more than building those rooms though.

And I have no idea what the current possible npc flag status looks like but I'm betting that would need some work too, since I think pretty much all they have now is citizenship and zone, shrug.

I'm certain they have more, as they assist people of the same clan who're attacked. Clan, zone and maybe rank flags are likely all that's necessary.

And you don't think this would be a major undertaking?

It's not a trivial one, but it's a long way short of major. Doing it all from scratch without worrying about consensus among imms would be a few hours of work, no more. The need for general agreement on what the status values were would slow things down rather though.

This is, of course, ignoring that the coders already have a hitlist of things to tackle, which likely includes a goodly number of higher priority things, and may well be busy with other things inside or outside the game. That variable alone would ensure that even were this idea considered for implementation the delay on its appearance in game would likely be substantial.

Quirk

[X-D]

Let me clear one or two points.

X-D wrote:
And I have no idea what the current possible npc flag status looks like but I'm betting that would need some work too, since I think pretty much all they have now is citizenship and zone, shrug.


I'm certain they have more, as they assist people of the same clan who're attacked. Clan, zone and maybe rank flags are likely all that's necessary.

I know there are more flag slots, but I think most npc's are currently only flagged citizen(or not) and zone, most I do not believe are clanned.

X-D wrote:
I think you under estimate the amount of script writing, as I said before, not complex scripts, but a LOT of them. I can think of at least 16 right off the top of my head.


No need to handle any of it in scripts. It can all be dealt with in code. I'm curious as to which scripts you think need updated? The guards don't need to have it handled in their scripts, all they know is that someone with a crim-flag is present.

Shrug, sure it could be, but if your going to bother with the change at all then updating the scripts to have the right flavor for the area would certainly be in line, orders for legion (north) and militia (south) And the way they handle things is not the same.

I can think of more things, but gonna bother at the moment, we are not that far from agreement, I think it's good to stop here on this subject.

Someday maybe it will be worked on.