The mean templar sticks a hot brand...

[Anonymous]

If you become wanted in a city but arn't ever caught, is there a record of you being wanted? I think it's kind of logical for them to just forget you were ever wanted considering there are so many criminals, but then I look at real life and if you're ever wanted theres usually some record of your crime listed somewhere.

[Bestatte]

Some crimes will make your crim-flag wear off pretty fast. Like, within 20 minutes or something like that (maybe 10? maybe 30? dunno for sure). Some crimes will stick your crimflag on a lot longer. I'm guessing that some crimes won't ever come off your flag.

As in all things Bestattish, it depends.

[Anonymous]

I don't know.  I can't imagine records being much use to illiterate militia soldiers.

I think your idea of a brand is awesome.  Maybe there could be a tattoo artist that gives out brands somewhere in the Templars' quarter.  Multiple brands means...a repeat offender.

Great idea, I think.  Especially if you got tagged everytime you went into the jail automagickally.  Man, there'd be some scarred up elves.

[Ueda]

Sometimes they wouldn't be able to do... So & So commited ____ crime at So & So time. I mean shit only very small minority can read, and for them to write down everytime someone commited a theft would, just take way to much time, for a trained scribe to do. Templars or poeple who are in the militia part might remeber you. (If you commite a crime) But, I think if you killed a templar, you might be remebered till your demize.

But I don't have a clue how the code works, thats just my thoughts on it.

[spawnloser]

From what I know of sociology and the state of Zalanthan literacy, it would be nigh impossible to keep permanent track without the tattoos/brands...but you would run out of places to brand some people, eventually...before then, you would run out of places to legibly brand people...and tattoos, even brands, could be covered up with enough creativity and pain tolerance.  I'm going to go off the assumption that word gets spread about and eventually the people forget about you...unless you do something REALLY heinous, people would.  Actually try to steal the dragon statue, and get it out the gates before a full squad of militia led by a red robe stops you, but you get away?  That I think is a permanent crim-flag.

[Armaddict]

I think before you ran out of space for crime brands/tattooes, you'd run out of chances to stay alive.

[spawnloser]

I think before you ran out of space for crime brands/tattooes, you'd run out of chances to stay alive.

That is true...but still, someone with enough creativity and pain tolerance could make it impossible to further brand them for identification purposes.

[Tamarin]

In renaissance-era france, they used to brand criminals with tattoos who were marked for deather.  They put the fleur-de-lis on their shoulder or chest, I believe.  Nothing large...just big enough and close enough to the neck to make it fairly visible.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That is true...but still, someone with enough creativity and pain tolerance could make it impossible to further brand them for identification purposes.

What exactly is your point?  Just because a few people might be able to nullify their brands wouldn't stop the law from using brands, now would it?

[sacac]

Oh.. that remind me.. it actually depends... you just hope the same templar doesn't catch you everytime or else he will walk in.. and say
Oh.. in Krath's name.. Theft again Bukera?

Yeah.. It was pretty bad.. he killed me for being a reapeat offender.. on the 6th time or soo
The branding idea is awesome.. Even though most elves would be branded up the.. that thing..

[spawnloser]

I understand that it was done...but in Zalanthas, there really is not much of a point to brand someone marked for death, is it?  There is no form of organized structure to the law like on Earth...no restrictions that state a person that would be condemned to death requires certain things like the judicial process.  Most Templars would simply have the person killed instead of brand them and give them the unnecessary time before death that could be used to escape.

And my point, ErgonomicRidingSled, is that the templars of both cities would consider that a reason to simply use a harsh punishment and use that as enough of a lever to convince the person that they should not do so again.  I'm all for the harsh punishment instead of a silly little mark that should have little to do with how the punishment should be decided, that being the whim of the templar in question.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A branding is an effective punishment all by itself.  For starters, I would imagine that it is excrutiatingly painful.  And secondly, if you brand somebody on a place like their forehead, then all of the sudden everybody knows that they are a criminal unless they rip the flesh off of their forehead.  If you're going to exile them, branding is also a good way to do it.  Your only other option is to make the gate soldiers remember what that person looks like for the rest of their lives.  Which might end up being less accurate.  It also helps keep track of repeat offenders, so if you get tired of seeing somebody repeatedly winding up in jail, you can just off them.  Furthermore, if a soldier sees a brand then they know that they are looking at somebody who has commited a crime in the past, thus they can keep an eye on them.

[crymerci]

I don't see branding being used for just any crime, like theft or fencing certain goods.  But, I could see it being used in case of murderers or traitors--again, assuming they're not killed outright.

[Malifaxis]

Bah, cut off the hands.

[Anonymous]

I don't see why anyone who spent time in jail wouldn't get marked.  What reason would a government like Allanak have to not do so?

It makes perfect sense to me.  He's stolen once, so mark him.   Next time there's a theft in a crowded area, if someone notices his brand you probably found the culprit.  Especially considering the idea of a reformed criminal probably isn't part of the Allanaki notion of law enforcement.

[Zacharai]

"POOR IMPULSE CONTROL"

Really, though, I don't see an overriding reason why this would be necessary.  I view Allanak specifically as a city that expects a certain level of criminal activity.  Obviously thieves should be caught, but if they aren't, eh.  Shopkeeper should have better security.  If a thief gets caught, they probably haven't stolen something really worthwhile.  If they did, they'd die.  Since they haven't, throw them into the slammer for a bit and move on to the next thief.

Since it's a crime to know how to read and write, I doubt they'd have a legion of bureaucracy to record what is stolen by whom.  Merchant houses often have half-literate record-keepers, who can take care of numbers and 'sid amounts, but probably not their life story.  It costs enough to hire militia to give the appearance of propriety... why go beyond that?

Branding.  Interesting.  Except, umm, why?  You'd have half the elves in the city branded, and people would be more nervous around unbranded elves -- they're the good ones.  I just think it isn't important enough.  Kill 'em if they deserve it.  That's good enough for me.

--Zach

[Alamos]

I like the idea of branding, but no auto-branding upon being jailed.  I for one have had a handful of characters actually be hired while in jail by Templars for their own reasons.  Being branded would severely hurt their reputation and ability to gain access to desired information.  Going through the whole branding and un-branding process would just be a pain, literally and figuratively, for both parties.  Of course, it'd be impossible then for PCs to brand every shmoe that gets hauled into jail that they don't have an interest in.  I don't feel like thinking about this anymore, however.  Good stuff.

[Ring-a-ding Kid]

I think there are enough criminals in a city that if you're lucky enough to have your crime forgotten, you should consider it a loophole and dive through.


I also think branding criminals would create some confusion with branded slaves.  Slaves probably outnumber citizens 2:1 in the big cities, and they are all branded.  Most illiterate people would just know if they see a brand on someone, it's a slave who lost its collar - even if they didn't recognize the symbol of the owner.

[sacac]

Well.. Let me think..
emote slams their head on ~desk.
Ok. Well.. for branding we can have a militia footpress looking brand for thieves, daggers for killers, and so on.
But I feel it is more Armesc when you have a templar that remembers your Pc's name and why you were in there last time.. because they liked to use you as a training dummy.
I like it.. that is all I can say.. and after all, aren't all commoners the militia's slaves?

[Rindan]

I personally love the idea of branding criminals.  I would without a say it should be a thing only PCs and imm controlled NPCs could do, simply because I have had the crime code screw up or a templar botch an incriminate command more then once.  It would suck to accidentally get branded by some auto-script.  I also don't think that everyone would get branded on their first offense.  

For instance, consider a pick pocket.  He gets nailed and thrown in jail.  If a templar takes interest in the pick pocket, generally they get out through a bribe.  If they don't have the demanded 'sid to pay up, they die.  It isn't really a nice middle ground.  Branding could be that middle ground.  

The social stigmata of having a brand would be punishment enough for most crimes.  You could even get elaborate and set up a system of brands.  The first time you are caught doing a minor crime like pick pocketing, perhaps you get a brand in a place that is somewhat damning, but not terribly so, like on your arm.  You can cover it up, but it will be there for anyone who looks close.  As your offenses get worse, the places where you get branded get worse.  Hands would probably be next, followed by the forehead.  Major offenses that don't warrant death would get you a nice brand on the forehead.  This has the nice side effect of making the covering of one's face more suspicious.  People would assume a person hiding their face might be trying to hide a brand.

You could set up a system of brands that mean different things.  For instance, let's say someone commits a crime out of ignorance.  They do something stupid that ends up being criminal.  They might get a tattoo on their forehead that proudly proclaims that they committed a crime out of shear stupidity.  Another tattoo might indicate that someone is disrespectful to their superiors and a savage.  You might get this for failing to show proper respect to a noble, but not being so disrespectful as to warrant death.  There could be a tattoo for a thief, which of course would make their lives considerably more difficult if they are clearly labeled as a thief.  Smugglers could be clearly labeled as smugglers, and with such a label militia would know to pay extra attention to such people and search them thoroughly.  

The branding would serve a duel purpose.  First, it would help the militia.  If you capture someone for something, and they have a brand already, you know they are criminal and you know what type of criminal.  It is just extra information they can use in their jobs.  It is sort of a living criminal record.  It also help separate which party is a liar and which is telling the truth.  If two people come with a dispute, and one guy has a brand that means "I am a liar and a thief", then it is a simple matter for the militia to dismiss their claims and side with the citizen without such branding.  

Second, a branded person would likely have a much harder time finding a job, and to get any sort of job they would likely have to explain their branding.  I think it would lead to a lot of interesting RP.  The Byn could actually earn its reputation as a place of criminals and thugs, as I imagine a branded person would find the Byn being of their few remaining options.  The brand would serve as a punishment that is a step down from death.  This would give templars more options at their disposal.  A brand would be something I imagine most people would want to avoid like the plague.  A templar could certainly pull in a few more bribes from people wanting to avoid such a punishment.  Branding would be a very effective social punishment.

[creeper386]

Can I just say huh, on what sacac posted?

Anyways, I find it highly unlikely branding is only done to slaves. In different societies some families brand their children for identification. Branding is a form of dedication as well. People dedicating themselves to each other might carry each others brand. People dedicating themselves to some group might get a brand. Brands are fairly easy ussually. Although with out metal might make it difficult, but I'm sure their are plenty of materials that can hold enough heat to burn skin. Don't know of any really but I'm sure there is something.

In my mind branding could very well be as common as tattoos. If not more common. A tattoo is likely to get infected, or the ink bleeds out or fades at least more likely then now of days.

Anyways... Yeah. I think doing/saying things like branding is just for slaves is so incredibly close minded that it will end up detracting from the game world.

Creeper

[JollyGreenGiant]

I like Rindan's idea.