Find out IC

[Quirk]

This is in direct response to a post I saw as a reply in the Ask The Staff forum, but it's not meant as victimisation of a particular staff member; I've often seen similarly glib replies tossed off on the GDB by players and occasionally staff.

There are many good times to say, "Find out IC". When you're asked if House Salarr would employ secret magickers, or if that agafari broadsword is better than the obsidian tomahawk it's an excellent answer. Sometimes it's even a good response to code questions. Sometimes it's a very bad response to code questions, as I'm about to explain in more detail.

The code is an impressive body of work. Nonetheless, as we all know, it does not accurately simulate the "reality" of Zalanthas in every detail. Some of its failures to emulate this reality are not design decisions but bugs. If there is a bug that is likely to generally result in deleterious things happening to characters who are unaware that the code's results do not correspond with what should ICly happen, it should be widely noted, not left to trip people up who refuse to go out of character to find out how the code actually works.

So, say, if someone asks "Is it true that non-militia members wielding any sort of weapon in Tuluk get automatically crim-flagged, and can this be fixed?" or "I've heard that it's impossible to steal from a magicker - isn't this a bug, and is it going to be fixed?" responding "Find out IC" is unhelpful. Where the code appears to penalise people for RPing correctly, the solution is not to encourage people who ask about it to find out how the bug works and learn how to avoid being caught by it, it is to let everyone know so they can avoid being hurt by the bug while it's in the queue to be fixed. There is no alternative for PCs. Imms, of course, could watch out for the bug and attempt to intercede in every single instance of the bug being triggered, and if they plan to manually correct every single injustice done by the code to PCs playing realistically responding "Find out IC" is of course fine. If on the other hand repeatedly resurrecting people or springing them from jail and persuading everyone involved that what just happened didn't happen doesn't appeal, a straight answer would probably work better.

Indeed, if (as has been the case at points in the past) recompense will not be made at any point for losses caused by code bugs, any imms attempting to fend off questions about damaging code bugs with "Find out IC" could be seen as negligent, perhaps even irresponsible. Players put a lot of time into the game as well as imms, and while losing characters is seldom extremely easy to take, losing a character to a code bug is one level higher in terms of aggravation. It's up there with being killed while link-dead.

So, please, think before you post "Find out IC" to code questions. Think whether the behaviour of the code being questioned could be unfairly hurting those who attempt to RP as though the world was real.

Quirk

[ashyom]

I'll explain why I always say this.  It's a little longwinded.
If you feel you truly deserve an answer to a code question, my best suggestion is to:  find a way to answer your questions IC, look in the helpfiles, and if that doesn't pan out, email the mud, and explain your reasons.  The staffer going through the emails will give you the best answer they can.  I prefer this to finding out by accident or intentionally via GDB and other OOC means.  It just spoils the game for me, and I often hear a number of others feel the same.  Read on.

Yes I agree that there are a few code features that is difficult to find an answer to in-game, and in these cases, I again refer you to my other standard answer - email the mud.  However, many times code and feature questions can be answered by exploring in-game.  

Using the latest round of question as example, "Can you hide, sneak and not break hide?"  You could figure this out by hiding, sneaking into another room, and seeing if anyone notices you or not.  Possibly you fail at one or both.  But if you're quite practised at doing this, and people still see you after you sneak in, there's your answer.  It might take you awhile to figure out the answer.

Additonally, if you aren't playing a sneaky feller, is it necessary for you to know the answer to this?  I'm going to be conservative and say, No.  If you OOCly know all the code tricks and tips to these classes ahead of the time, then why bother exploring all the wonderful features that the classes have to offer, when you do decide to play something different?  You're robbing yourself of that fun.

I still get my Shit and Giggles by figuring out something ICly, and going "Ooh!, I didn't know about this!", despite having been on the staff for some time.  I learn something new everyday about the mud.  
That's why my answer is almost always "Find out IC".
Ashyom  

[Bestatte]

There was a case like this I experienced, where I asked staffers and players alike and were told to find out IC.

I spent hours and hours and hundreds and hundreds of sids attempting to do just that. And every time, I came up with the same answer: something isn't doing something, that I think should do something.

So back to the staff and players I'd go..and be told to keep trying.

Turns out it as not only a bug, but an entire part of a skill that was broken, or unimplemented, or turned off.

And if only someone had come out and said, point blank: It's broken...

I wouldn't have had to go through all that time, effort, roleplay, and sids to find out that an OOC mechanism wasn't working as the documentation stated it was supposed to work.

I'd say I have to agree with Quirk on this: Before anyone jumps in with "Find out IC" please take some time to investigate the situation and make sure it really IS something that -can- be found out IC, and then determine if it's something that -should- be found out IC. Because if it isn't either of those, then "find out IC" is just a cop-out, in my opinion.

Edited to add: To the defense of the staff, I -was- eventually told it was broken, and that there were plans to fix it but no priority given.

I do feel badly for anyone who's trying this particular skill, and coming up frustrated. The helpfiles still say this stuff's supposed to work in a certain way, with certain variables and certain options, and it still doesn't work as stated. It would be great if the help files were changed to let people know not to count on this particular skill to work properly so they don't include into their PC's background something that isn't possible by virtue of the broken skill.

[Tlaloc]

I do feel badly for anyone who's trying this particular skill, and coming up frustrated. The helpfiles still say this stuff's supposed to work in a certain way, with certain variables and certain options, and it still doesn't work as stated. It would be great if the help files were changed to let people know not to count on this particular skill to work properly so they don't include into their PC's background something that isn't possible by virtue of the broken skill.

If this is the case, then it can probably be assumed this is a bug. This statement makes it sound like the helpfiles are way out of whack with the way all skills work. This is far from true. In my experience (as a player), the Helpfiles have been very accurate, and usually tell you all you need to know about a skill.

In Bestattes example, something was really broken. This happens, on occasion. However, in my opinion, its not the point of the GDB to ask the playerbase in genneral if a skill is broken. If you think a skill is broken, email the mud, and/or use the 'Bug' command. Asking if a skill is broken on the GDB (or even the mechanics of a skill, like hide/sneak, etc), does the following things:

1) It tells people that you probably have the skill, OOCly. This can lead to awkward OOC knoweldge at times. This is a minor problem, easily remedied, but alot of times people think: "Oh, its harmless that folks know that my PC has 'sneak'", when it can influence and color people's RP.

2) It gives away the mystery of some the skills, and ruins the fun of discovering/being surprised by them.

3) Doesn't really give you a correct answer, because the PC's only know the answer they think is correct. In reality a skill might be far more complex, and might do strange things in certain situations that are highly variable. OR, it could be bugged entirelly...or maybe we just fixed it.

4) It has a tendancy to instill a sort of lazyness amongst the players. If you know you can get your answer on the GDB, why would you ever bother to find out in-game? Why even bother reading the helpfiles at all?

If you want to find out all there is about rougeish skills, find a place that would teach you rogueish skills, and learn from them in game. If your magicker wants to learn about how a spell works, and what exactly it will do, find another magicker who will teach you in game. If you think something is bugged, but it, and/or email the mud to ask if you aren't sure.

The level and ammounts of OOC knoweldge that have been passed on in the past couple of years via the GDB has increased dramatically than where it used to be when I first started playing. Not to rattle the Old Fogie cage at all, but when I was a player, we couldn't ask hardly anything about the mechanics of the skills on the GDB.

I have always been of the opinion that the helpfiles are the place to get all the information you need to know about a skill. The rest falls into experiment, and trial and error, and asking people who might know better than you in game.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter, and I don't nessecarially speak for the rest of the staff.

[sacac]

well about those help files.. when I started Arm.. I was told a lot "Check the Help files" So I'd search the helpfiles a lot and never found half the info I was looking for.. simply because some of the information in the help files are outdated and not up-to-snuff with current needs.

Find out IC.. I've lost 5 characters because I was told to 'Find out IC'
Finding out IC is not neccessary when your PC should know something that you don't about a skill they have.
but On most occasions 'Find out IC' is nessecary in things like branching, crafting, other skills, events going on in one place, and numerous others.

But don't 'Find out IC' to the point where people leave because of it..

As for the more IC info now more then "The good ol' days" Those days are dead.. maybe it's just you keeping track of the information. I try not to take OOC info IC for reasons like (I don't want to know who you are) so yeah.. you can spell 'teh' err.. um.. 'the' wrong every time you spell it.. but I don't care.. when you say it.. I don't check how you spell it with your tongue or with your body movements, Why? Because I think most of the playerbase doesn't care to remember every little quark that you have OOC. Yes.. I'll admit.. I DO keep track of the way some people emote IG to the point where I can, sometimes, tell one person's PC from one of thier old PCs that have now died (Most of the time, Unless I really don't like your newer PC) But you just have to use judgement when using 'Find out IC'

[Bestatte]

Ugh I was gonna respond but explaining myself is too IC if I want the response to make any sense at all. Suffice it to say - to Tlaloc, the paragraph you quoted and responded to by saying

This statement makes it sound like the helpfiles are way out of whack with the way all skills work.

was very specific.

I was discussing a particular skill (a combination of two skills actually) and corresponding helpfiles.

I didn't mean to suggest or imply that the whole helpfile system was whacked so if you read it that way I truly apologize. I've checked the helpfiles for a lot of different stuff since I started playing and almost all of them are very helpful, always useful, and easy to understand.

[Northlander]

I do understand the staff's reasoning behind this, and agree with a fair deal of it.

But let's continue with this specific example:
If a PC hides, and then sneaks into a tavern, that PC will know whether he's still trying to go about being unseen, or if he stopped doing that once he entered the tavern. It's hard to blame a player for wanting to know what his PC knows.

[spawnloser]

Some skills don't work in certain situations that maybe they should...if you ask if it does and get, "Find out IC," as a response, you will find out that it never works...but why doesn't it?  Limitations in the code.  The code is an OOC concept...and I don't think that the above response is appropriate.  However, I do 100% fully understand why it should be given in other situations and support the use of that response...but as has been pointed out, using it as a knee-jerk response is possibly not the best way to go about things.

[Quirk]

1) It tells people that you probably have the skill, OOCly. This can lead to awkward OOC knoweldge at times. This is a minor problem, easily remedied, but alot of times people think: "Oh, its harmless that folks know that my PC has 'sneak'", when it can influence and color people's RP.

This is true, but it's true only for those who can associate your characters with your GDB name. I don't think on the GDB in general this is a huge problem (I could be wrong) although in clan forums yes, people do post who they play.

2) It gives away the mystery of some the skills, and ruins the fun of discovering/being surprised by them.

I'm sorry, but as Bestatte has explained in some detail, "being surprised by them" when the skill acts in a manner that is in fact broken is not something that can be seen as beneficial. There is nothing fun about discovering a bug with a skill, such as, say, sneak's inability to take you past NPCs for the very reason queried in the Ask The Staff forum. Keeping a broken skill a mystery is just a good way to screw over new players.

3) Doesn't really give you a correct answer, because the PC's only know the answer they think is correct. In reality a skill might be far more complex, and might do strange things in certain situations that are highly variable. OR, it could be bugged entirelly...or maybe we just fixed it.

I would imagine that was why the original query was posted in the Ask The Staff forum. Really, I would much prefer to see answers to these things given as some sort of official bug-list. People come to the GDB because they have difficulty finding out anywhere else.

4) It has a tendancy to instill a sort of lazyness amongst the players. If you know you can get your answer on the GDB, why would you ever bother to find out in-game? Why even bother reading the helpfiles at all?

I don't see what the helpfiles have to do with this. When a skill appears to fail to perform in the manner expected, I think pretty much everyone checks the skill's helpfile. In the vast majority of cases the helpfiles have nothing useful to say about bugs. The skill_subdue helpfile makes no note of the highly unrealistic ease of subduing an armed and skillful warrior, for example.

Encouraging people to "find out in game" isn't sensible either. You're encouraging people to RP in an uncharacteristic fashion for the OOC reason of finding out that the world behaves in a way that it shouldn't. You now not only have the initial jarring of the code misbehaving, but lots of characters doing extremely odd things just because they have no other recourse to find out if the code does what it says on the tin.

If you want to find out all there is about rougeish skills, find a place that would teach you rogueish skills, and learn from them in game. If your magicker wants to learn about how a spell works, and what exactly it will do, find another magicker who will teach you in game. If you think something is bugged, but it, and/or email the mud to ask if you aren't sure.

This amuses me rather. I have a picture of this body of OOC lore being passed down ICly, all the oddities and bugs of the code dressed in cryptic and nonsensical-seeming comments. "Eh, son, guards are sharp-eyed buggers. There's no way of getting past them, 'cos you've got to come out of hiding sometime."

The level and ammounts of OOC knoweldge that have been passed on in the past couple of years via the GDB has increased dramatically than where it used to be when I first started playing. Not to rattle the Old Fogie cage at all, but when I was a player, we couldn't ask hardly anything about the mechanics of the skills on the GDB.

This was always one of the worst curses of many RPIs, and thankfully it seems to be getting better now across the board. Urging people to find out in game will advantage those willing to break character to experiment with the code over those unwilling to break character. Generally, we call the former "twinks".

I don't think the GDB is the ideal forum for this sort of thing, as I've said earlier. I'd far rather have bugs and oddities mentioned in the helpfiles for the skill, or have some manner of official bug-list. It would obviously be highly beneficial if people dropped an email to the mud for each bug query, but I suspect that this would lead to much duplication of effort on the staff's behalf. Additionally, as Bestatte indicates, sometimes the staff answer is unhelpful. If a skill is broken or behaves in a non-intuitive way, a player asking about it should be told that such is the case, not fobbed off with "Find out IC". Answers like that only encourage people to turn to the GDB rather than asking the staff again, because the chances are that some player out there will know.

To briefly touch on ashyom's post...

Additonally, if you aren't playing a sneaky feller, is it necessary for you to know the answer to this? I'm going to be conservative and say, No. If you OOCly know all the code tricks and tips to these classes ahead of the time, then why bother exploring all the wonderful features that the classes have to offer, when you do decide to play something different? You're robbing yourself of that fun.

Yes, yes it is. Sneaky classes are non-karma required. Likely as not everyone will play one at some point. Knowing about bugs in sneaky feller code in advance saves you from much pain in finding out that something doesn't work the way it should. It's not fun for a PC to find out that something works oddly. I'm not here to discover all the stranger design decisions or bugs in the code and work out how to maximise my advantage by exploiting them. I'm here to RP.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

I say 'Find out IC' because there are about a billion times people are sitting at the bar together with no idea how to start up a conversation.  Asking something ICly that is easy to answer but also available IC just seems to make sense to me.

We are playing the Armageddon Game, not the GDB game.

Obviously there are times where you can't find out IC, but whenever possible that should be the way to do it, I think.

I certainly don't do it because I'm looking down my nose at those who ask, and I know it can be frustrating to not know something your PC probably would.  But is going to the gameworld and doing a:

tell man Hey, my names Blahblooblee.  I got a question and you look like the type of fellow who really knows his way around the world.  Who do I talk to to get a merchant's token?

not preferrable and better for the game all around than making a post?

[Bestatte]

Oh definitely CRW, I couldn't agree with you more on that example. But that isn't what Quirk is talking about, nor I.

We're talking about something more like this:

Susie Newthief asks, in sirihish, "Hey can someone please watch me and let me know if they can see me after I sneak out and sneak back in? I want to find out if I'm still hidden."

or

Joey TheMadPoisoner asks, in sirihish, "Would someone please tell me why I can't hold this <insert name for small container object>? I should be able to. I mean, it's a small <container>, fits in my hand. Not that I plan on doing anything with it you see, I just want to know why I can't hold it. Yeah, that's it. Just curious."

or

Sandy Rangercrazed asks, in sirihish, "Okay so like I've been a ranger for six years now, been through the scrub and the desert and the forests, know my way around every shit-hole in the Known World. I'm staring a hole in this area here, and I see numut vines all over the ground, dramam bushes galore, and enough roots to feed the entirety of the Warrens for the next decade. So how come I can't pluck a single fucking thing, huh?"

"Find Out IC" is not an appropriate way to address these issues. In the first, you have no way of knowing if something *should* work a certain way, so you have nothing to compare your own ability to. If you know that no, you cannot remain hidden after you type "west" while sneaking, then you don't have to risk getting killed ICly (or giving away the fact that you're a sneaky thief type) asking an OOC mechanics question.

In the second two examples, you have the help-files that tell you things -should- work a certain way, and you're pretty sure you've done everything correctly, but you aren't positive, and need some OOC mechanics help making sure that you should just keep trying, or give up and try something else instead. Or maybe you should bug it, because there's something faulty with the code or implementation. Bugs are not IC. They're code issues. OOC code issues.

As for giving away your skills by posting on the GDB, remember we can always post anonymously. This forum doesn't require you to be logged in to post. I've done this many times, posting as a "guest" when I want to ask a mechanics question without anyone knowing it's me.

[Petra]

While sometimes the reply "Find out IC" has merit, it's one of those things that has become so overused and so terribly shoved in my face that, honestly, I cringe whenever I see it.  It's just so cliche.

Frankly, if I feel someone's question doesn't warant a response due to IC sensitivity, I just won't say anything at all rather than say "Nyah nyah, find out IC" -- especially since most of the time nobody has any IC motive to find out IC in the first place, so the last thing they'll do is ... "Find out IC".

It's also one of those Arm Elitist things, a comment I categorise along with a lot of other holier than thou attitudes numerous Armers bring to the game.

[Forest Junkie]

do0d, Petra! Can I join the Arm Elitists!?!? I would -SO- be a kewl armer with a holier than thou attidudic response thingie!

*crosses his fingers*[/code]

[Blackmoon]

I've seen a lot of negative posts lately. (Perhaps we can have more possitive discussion than the negative ones?  :wink: )
I'm thinking that the staff does their best to help us enjoy playing on Armageddon, why argue with them on something so simple? With the 'Find out IC' response, I think they are referring to questions asked on the GBD (may a staff correct me if I'm wrong). If you have an issue, why don't you just email the Mud account instead of asking why the staff responded the way s/he did on the GBD? It'll prevent any IC information leaking and keep the complaints down to a minimum.

In my own opinion, I feel the GBD should not include Code Discussion. Most of the questions answered there would most likely be answered through emailing the mud, without the chances of giving IC information.

Also, you have to realize many of the things that we have now are priveledges, things that the staff spend extra time doing for the enjoyment of players.

[number13]

This board is insanely useful for supplementing the help files.  For example, I had no idea that there was an EQ command (it's not in the help files) until I read a random posting that mentioned it.

Personally, I'd hope that the "Find out IC" thingy be enforced for the more exotic systems (like magic and psionics) but relaxed a little for the mundane class skills that a total newbie might have (like hide).

[growingall]

Apologize

But sometimes I just get annoyed when someones says 'find out IC' because in some cases it is just silly..

Like climbing with rope..

Say my char wants to use rope to climb with.. the helpfiles are not very useful.. and generally if i do it wrong my character dies.. dead.. splat..

Now my chars skill in being able NOT to become geography shouldn't depend on weather I know if the rope is to be 'held' or 'held as rope' or 'grabbed for climbing' or if the correct phrase is 'down with rope'..

The only thing that might piss me off more is the 'with some thinking you should be able to figure that out'.. no i don't cause I have only one shot at it .. and then it is splat, mantishead..

:evil:

Sorry for the rant..

[Anonymous]

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here.

I don't get my panties in a wad if someone asks a question like this on the board.  But I do believe that it's better for the game if questions like that are asked in game.

Take your question:

say (looking ~man over) You got climbin' gloves I see.  Man, this one time I got lost down in a ravine and I couldn't figure out how to tie my rope to help me out.  Any pointers?

Obviously if there is nobody around and you are stuck in a situation it makes perfect sense to come to the board.  But otherwise, I can't see how asking ICly is not preferrable.  Fear of your PC looking 'stupid' is not an excuse in my mind.

I'm not going to toss out a 'Find out IC' as if to smack someone in the face with it, I just honestly believe people are doing themselves a disservice by coming to the board when they could get an answer ICly.  Even if its 2 lines of 'tell's followed by an 'ooc'.  At least it's in the game.  And questions tend to lead to conversations which lead to further interaction which leads to plots.

[Angela Christine]

Say my char wants to use rope to climb with.. the helpfiles are not very useful.. and generally if i do it wrong my character dies.. dead.. splat..

Now my chars skill in being able NOT to become geography shouldn't depend on weather I know if the rope is to be 'held' or 'held as rope' or 'grabbed for climbing' or if the correct phrase is 'down with rope'..

The only thing that might piss me off more is the 'with some thinking you should be able to figure that out'.. no i don't cause I have only one shot at it .. and then it is splat, mantishead..

Personally I think a pure syntax question like that isn't, or shouldn't be, a big secret.  But if you do have to resort to experimentation, may I suggest you do it while standing in a relatively safe location trying to climb up.  Climbing up isn't completely safe, but it is much safer than climbing down.  Rope is pretty disappointing in its ability to help keep you from going ker-splat while climbing down.

AC

[Twilight]

We all have different expectations about the knowledge that we think we should have to play the game.  Something like:

Climbing up isn't completely safe, but it is much safer than climbing down. Rope is pretty disappointing in its ability to help keep you from going ker-splat while climbing down.

Not to pick on AC, the example was just handy, but that is something I would tell someone to find out about IC.  AC obviously thinks otherwise.

I personally draw the line at letting other people know how a skill or code works, with the exception of something which would prohibit them from using it at all.  I think thats for the player to find out on their own, and not through the GDB.  But other people think that you should know all the quirks for a specific skill.  All a matter of opinion I guess.

However, I'm not going to sit here and say the value of all opinions is equal.  Staff opinions trump, obviously.  A new person might sit here asking a question they think entirely reasonable, but everyone who has a better sense of what Arm is about is shaking their head going "No way in hell anyone is gonna answer that".  And that is not to say anyone who has been here a long time has the better opinion, but in any game, people are going to be more or less tuned in.

The whole hide/sneak debate is a good example.  I have seen people throw around the word bug when describing the relationship of how the two skills work together.  I would not term it a bug.  Its just the way the skills currently work.  I personally wish it was changed a bit, but its not imho a bug.  People confuse bug and balance too often.

My personal observation is that the longer you are around, the more likely you are to say "Find out IC".  Part of it is (hopefully) being more tuned in, part of it is having figured it out yourself so they can figure it out themselves, and part of it is having things like that ruined for you before, because people blurted it out on the board.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Well, I'd have to say, I didn't see this discussion coming when I posted my question.  This sentence seems worth quoting:

We all have different expectations about the knowledge that we think we should have to play the game.

In almost all cases, it's safe to expect skills to work as outlined in the help files.  In most cases, it's also safe to expect skills to work logically.  My question stemmed from thinking that it would be logical for the two skills to work together that way, but the help file gave no definite indication of whether or not this was the case.

So let's say I do finagle some way to "find out IC" with a character, and I find that it works the way I think it should.  Since the docs don't say anything about it, how do I know I'm not abusing a bug, or that the code really isn't meant to work that way?  Or maybe I discover that it doesn't work, but again, is it a bug?  Should it work?  Is my skill not high enough for it to work?  I have no way of knowing unless I ask.  And in the end, the only reason I ask is then I can request that it be made to do that, if it doesn't already.  I guess that's probably what I should have done in the first place, I really didn't intend to stir up the anthill...

[growingall]

say (looking ~man over) You got climbin' gloves I see.  Man, this one time I got lost down in a ravine and I couldn't figure out how to tie my rope to help me out.  Any pointers?

Nope, don't agree to a lot% percent of the time.

Many times one could ask in game, and try to make it work smoothly.. for instance if you have friends around, or are in a clan, or is doing something as an apprentice crafter..

The rope thing was just an example people..

Anyhow, here my dirty rinther need to get to place A in order to make a living, if I don't I will run out of recources rather fast..

Do you ask an unknown rinther how to do it? Nooooo.. he will pick you off as the blossoming flower you are and leave your bleeding carcass in an alley... do you perhaps ask the merchant or the posh nobleman in the barrel about it? Can you say templar dragging you away?

Now 'if' i happen to stumble across a situation where it 'makes sence' to be able to ask questions about how things work.. I do ask, I really do. But most of the times, I can't really find a way that wouldn't totally destroy the mood for other players.

Personally I feel it hard to keep my spirits up when this die-hard rinther I meet, that plays/played wonderfully.. by the way.. needs the directions to the labyrinth from the bazaar.. then I'd actually prefer an 'ooc: how can I get to the rinth from here? My char really should know unless someone sucked his brain out with psionic powers..'

[Quirk]

Firstly, just to make it clear, I wasn't really referring to code syntax issues so much as bugs. If, say, wearing any sort of jewellery caused you to fail your climb check, a player expecting the coded laws of climbing to conform to normal physics would be caught out. And it makes no sense to talk about these sorts of things ICly, because there is no explanation ICly that is not ludicrous. Bestatte came up with some nice examples.

As far as Twilight's "it's not a bug, it's a balance issue" goes with regard to sneak, the current implementation makes it impossible to use the skills as the helpfiles would seem to suggest they can be used to sneak past aggro NPCs. When a skill cannot be used in certain circumstances when in terms of the game-world it should be usable, it is a bug. I don't really see that it can be successfully argued otherwise as things stand. Even were aggro NPCs fixed some other way, we'd just have to have the same debate over again about twinks spamming "look", although the second debate would probably end in the majority of players gravely agreeing that look should be used sparingly.

Quirk

[Carnage]

Even were aggro NPCs fixed some other way, we'd just have to have the same debate over again about twinks spamming "look", although the second debate would probably end in the majority of players gravely agreeing that look should be used sparingly.

Bullshit. In real life I constantly look around. And if I was out getting salt in a large, flat area full of nasties as big as a house I'd constantly be looking around. Besides, sneaking through a few leagues of land -should- take quite a bit of time.

...You can return to your discussion now.

[Blackmoon]

 In real life, (except in instances like a rinthi not knowing where the rinth is, but again, that can and will be found in the help files), there is no real way to know all the advantages and disadvantages of doing a particular thing without trying it yourself more than once, and using the climbing gloves situation for example, if your character has never seen climbing gloves before, what would allow him to know how to use it in the first place? Of course, if your character is a smart one, he could figure out ICly that having a good grip when climbing would be useful, not to mention the description of the gloves. I don't see a real problem with the 'find out IC' issue.

Main point: 'Find out IC' is a perfectly reasonable response, and if there seems to be a problem, you can always email the mud with your question/idea/bug.

A quick point I'd like to make, asking the playerbase for an IC answer is a means of cheating and ruins the feel of the game (in my opinion). Don't you cheat when you get bored of playing a game? Unless...you like to cheat and miss out on what the whole point of playing on Armageddon. Personaly, I think all the answers that you -should- know before entering the game is in the help files, you just have to look carefully.

[Tlaloc]

I seem to be getting the impression from this discussion that alot of the helpfiles aren't helpful in that they don't tell you how to perform skills, and that many of the skills aren't intuitive. Is this really the case?

I've been playing for nearly nine years, and I never found the helpfiles to be as drastically wrong, or the skills to be as counter-intuitive or illogical as they seem to be getting made out to be in this thread. For probably all of my problems concerning how do use things/perform skills/etc, I've always been able to either find the answer in the helpfiles, or in-game somewhere/somehow. I was able to pick up how to use ropes/climbing gear, hide/sneak, and a slew of other commands (some new, some old) just by playing around in-game and reading the helpfiles.

I'm not saying this to sound 'Holier than thou', or to be elitist or anything of the sort. I'm bringing this up because if its true that there is some sort of serious flaw in the helpfiles, then there is a possiblity that the Staff may be unaware of the problem (because I'm fairly sure we're all in the same boat, so to speak), and we should know about it asap, so that it can be fixed.

This is what the "bug" command, and emailing the mud are for, really. If you see something that doesn't work the way it should, is illogical, or is counter-intuitive, then that is probably something that should be 'bugged'. We also are willing to take helpfiles from players, if you feel there is something that should get its own helpfile, that the game lacks, and are willing to edit/append helpfiles if people think something should be added to them.

[Bestatte]

I haven't seen many problems with intuitiveness or help files, Tlaloc. Just a few isolated situations.

One is using a rope to climb. I assumed that "use rope down" would be the correct syntax, but I was wrong.  Unfortunately there is no help file for ropes, and it isn't included in the help-file for climbing. Intuitively yes, it makes perfect sense that a rope will help you climb, so that isn't the issue at all. It also makes sense that one would need to hold the rope.

But if you fail while holding it, how is it that you intuitively know that your failure isn't caused because you should -do- something actively with that rope, as opposed to simply lacking enough skill to make the climb?

It isn't a bug, and it isn't an earth-shattering "issue" that "needs" to be dealt with. It's just one of a few little things that could be resolved with either an added help file, or an added sentence to the existing climb help file.

Another is certain objects that one would assume could be held, but can't. In ordered to do what one thinks one should be able to do with them (according to the existing help files), one needs to hold them. But one can't. It's not a coded possibility. So one sends a note to mud asking if it's a bug. One is told to find out IC. That doesn't help. At all. Even remotely. So one experiments anyway, for weeks, and comes up with no solutions. Eventually one is told that a certain part of a specific skill is disabled due to bugs and the need to rewrite the system. And so weeks are wasted trying to find out IC something that doesn't work.

That's another thing, and IMO a bit more significant an issue than the matter of a rope. Because you can climb without a rope, but you can't use that certain object - without that certain object. And yet the help file implies that you should be able to use it.

I honestly don't see too many other problems with the help file worth mentioning. Granted, knowing whether or not you've successfully hidden would be great. I've idead it and posted here a suggested echo to the person trying to hide, so the hider still has a shot at being incorrect and not knowing it. It wasn't implemented, and that's fine by me. But yes, it would be nice.

[Carnage]

It isn't a bug, and it isn't an earth-shattering "issue" that "needs" to be dealt with. It's just one of a few little things that could be resolved with either an added help file, or an added sentence to the existing climb help file.

So pass on the knowledge.

[Bestatte]

To Carnage: Done, and thanks. I didn't realize there was a handy-dandy template for those help files.

[SykotikGith]

Wow! That's a cool template, I'll be sure to make use of it. Thanks, Carnage!

[crymerci]

I think that sometimes "find out IC" is an appropriate response.  However, I personally would like to see "ask a Helper privately" or "email the MUD account" used more frequently in its place.  Some things don't need to be advertised, but are not, on the other hand, sooper-sekrit.  Just because you were told to "find out IC" doesn't mean that's the only appropriate response.  If you say that to a newbie and their character dies because of the experiment, that may teach them that Zalanthas is harsh...or it may teach them that Armageddon players are assholes and encourage them to stop playing.

There is a sort of snotty elitism sometimes in telling someone to "find out IC" or even "check the helpfiles".  Most of us forget what it was like (or maybe never knew if we were already familiar with Diku etc.) what it's like to be so overwhelmed with the newness of the code and docs that you don't know how to do half the things you need to do just to get by. What it's like to know that you are not doing a very good job at playing your character because you don't know half the things they ought to know instinctively.

Once you've been playing the game awhile and you understand the quirks of code and documentation that aren't intuitive, you already have the solution to your problem because you know the un-intuitive way and it becomes intuitive.  Eventually you scoff at someone else's claim that something isn't intuitive, can't be found out ICly, and lacks logic, because you've understood it for so long that it seems simple.

I think the problem is that we're too often prone to making faces at the newbies, or people who are new to these "features" of the code/docs.  We don't want to hear that there's anything wrong with the way things are, because that's the way we know them and no one's ever fixed them before so they must not be broken.  It's understandable.  Nothing will ever be entirely intuitive for everyone, because we all come from different points of view.  It would take a legion of imms a decade to fix everything that one or five people thought was "wrong" about the game, and then someone else would bitch about the fix.

One example: I remember thinking as a newbie that there were things about the docs and/or how they were arranged that made it hard for me to find what I wanted, or understand basic things about the culture.  I also boggled at the amount of helpfiles and wondered how I would ever find the thing I was looking for. I've seen the same thing expressed by other newbies here.  But now I know how to lay my eyes on any doc I want & have access to, so it is intuitive now.  But that doesn't help the newbies, who arguably have more need of the docs than I do.

[Bestatte]

Crymerci, wow. Just - wow. I couldn't have said it better. You explained perfectly why it's SO important to pause and think hard before going the "find out IC" route.

Sometimes people come from games where everything is laid out for them, and they come here having absolutely no idea HOW to find something out IC. So telling them to do so just makes them frustrated.

So - thanks for your post. It was perfect, and dead-on.

[Anonymous]

Sometimes people come from games where everything is laid out for them, and they come here having absolutely no idea HOW to find something out IC. So telling them to do so just makes them frustrated.

So, doing something like Eternal did for me would be an answer then, no?

When I first showed up I was frustrated beyond belief because I couldn't find out where to get a merchant's token.  He told me to find out ICly but gave me some tips on how to go about asking for it.

Because of that I made IC friends and got a better understanding of Templars in the game.  I was much better for it.

Reading some of the posts in this thread, I wonder now if someone like Eternal would be afraid to say 'Find out IC, and here's how' for fear of sounding like an elitist.  When in truth, as a new player, I benefited from doing just that.

[Seeker]

There is a TREMENDOUS difference between the response:

"Find out IC."
      and
"Find out IC and here's how."

I just don't see the "and here's how" part nearly often enough on the GDB.


Seeker