Penalty to sorcerers and subguild elementalists

[Riev]

I agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.

The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.

Heck. Why should they if there is no punishment or reward for doing so?

The player of the magicker will kill you because they have a fireball and you dont.
The player of the mundane will kill the magicker because they can flaunt that they beat an "OP witch".
Keeping someone alive is "a guarantee that they will kill you later" and for DECADES now we have cared about staying alive, and not the story of our deaths.

So yeah. Why treat it as scary? Its just inconvenient and if I bash them first I "win" soooooo...

[Dresan]

Generally speaking i have no issue with powerful mage/sorcerer characters but that is not what people are asking for. What people want to play is magic warriors with stealth, ride and wilderness skills with zero down side or limitations.

Its not that a mages dont have powerful abilities to keep them safe. Its just that master parry is more convinient and does not have any of the downsides that come with magick upkeep or glowing like christmas trees in the night, right? I also think this is what made full mage classes more balanced. They actually had to rely on magic to achieve anything, instead of hust buffing already strong mudane skills.

I do believe the next step will be further nerfing of mage subguilds followed by the eventual removal the of subguild mages with the exception of touched classes. This of course comes with the reintroduction of full mage classes again. But if full-mage classes need more powerful spells than they aready have that do stuff like prevent bash or block weapon damage through impressive visible displays of magick prowless i would be very supportive. 

[Lizzie]

For me, it's the idea that a full-guild mage is relegated to either
1) being gemmed
2) being a secret ungemmed city mage with a city-centric subguild that automatically comes with the listen skill
3) picking a wilderness-centric subguild that automatically comes with direction sense.

Listen for secret city-based is important, if you want a good shot at remaining a secret mage based in the city.
Direction sense for any mage who is based outside in the wilderness is a no-brainer. With very few exceptions, most mages can't really function without it, outside cities.

So rather than further limit the subguild options, I say just give all full-guild elemental mages a low-cap of those skills right out of chargen. They can still select subguild with higher caps of those skills if they want. But they would have a greater variety of options for subguilds if they don't mind not "getting good" at those particular skills.

[RheaGhe]

For me, it's the idea that a full-guild mage is relegated to either
1) being gemmed
2) being a secret ungemmed city mage with a city-centric subguild that automatically comes with the listen skill
3) picking a wilderness-centric subguild that automatically comes with direction sense.

Listen for secret city-based is important, if you want a good shot at remaining a secret mage based in the city.
Direction sense for any mage who is based outside in the wilderness is a no-brainer. With very few exceptions, most mages can't really function without it, outside cities.

So rather than further limit the subguild options, I say just give all full-guild elemental mages a low-cap of those skills right out of chargen. They can still select subguild with higher caps of those skills if they want. But they would have a greater variety of options for subguilds if they don't mind not "getting good" at those particular skills.

So first off.

I love the idea to add a few small utility skills to fit the classes.

Unfortunately, it's unlikely to happen as far as I know.

That said, from what I read about the Karma changes, and from the discussions I observed at the time. The subguilds were going to be gradually phased out, and the gemmed restrictions on full guilds with them.

[Riev]

I hate to agree with lizzie (haayyy gurl) but I did prefer the main-guild magickers. I had always felt that your "main class" was something you were born to do, while your subclass was to fill out holes and/or to be the things you worked at. For an old quote:

Your main class is Mario
Your Subclass is Joe the Plumber

Both allow you to be able to do the job of a plumber, but in Mario's case? He was born to do it. He is naturally better at it, and will succeed more often. Joe the plumber can make a business out of plumbing but his real talents may lie elsewhere.

Magickers are born with magick in their blood. It is where all their potential lies. You weren't born to be a Plumber, but also happen to be a witch... you were born a with. I know it seems unfair, but in a world where magick is powerful and scary, it always made sense.



To whit: I don't want to play a super powerful sorceror with master parry and stealth skills. I want to play a sorceror with enough survivability and utility to be scary and enact plots. Unfortunately, many of our players want to play "I can kill you without risk".

A semi-recent sorceror went out of their way to NOT kill people, and yet some players hated how powerful they were because they "could not win". A player who spent months building a reputation, killing very few, in a very hard and iso role was chastised and bemoaned because some people couldn't "win". I don't think code will fix that, only a change in attitude.

[Lizzie]

I actually agree with Riev more often than I disagree (yass gurrl), I just don't advertise it because Riev needs to protect his rep or some such nonsense.

But yes, about the guild vs. subguild situation. This is true in every game I've played, all of which had main and sub guilds/classes/skillsets (whatever you want to call them).  The main was "what your character is designed for, primarily" while the sub was "hobbies, interests, side-talents" to give your main more depth and personality.

That's the whole point of -having- a main and a sub. If not, then just do away with mains entirely, and let people pick one sub from each category: combat, non-combat, and utility.

Or, ditch classes/subs altogether and shift completely into a template-based points system.

Magick has never been intended to be a side-gig. Either you're a mage, or you're not a mage.

[perfecto]

I agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.

The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.

Heck. Why should they if there is no punishment or reward for doing so?

The player of the magicker will kill you because they have a fireball and you dont.
The player of the mundane will kill the magicker because they can flaunt that they beat an "OP witch".
Keeping someone alive is "a guarantee that they will kill you later" and for DECADES now we have cared about staying alive, and not the story of our deaths.

So yeah. Why treat it as scary? Its just inconvenient and if I bash them first I "win" soooooo...

Played a Whiran Travel once unmanifested at the time, was the hunting type so I was out riding a beetle around Nak.  Had all my spells aliased to quick fire, just out of habit.. Guess I was looking one way, riding another.. (not paying attention ooc) Rode my ride straight over the edge into the giant fissure north of town there.. Even after failing my climb checks upon decent downward.. the VERY long decent downward.. I had time to consider casting and saving myself, and chose not to.   Because you're right, the way you die is just as important as the way you live.   Kudos fellow sandboxer

[Lizzie]

I agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.

The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.

Heck. Why should they if there is no punishment or reward for doing so?

The player of the magicker will kill you because they have a fireball and you dont.
The player of the mundane will kill the magicker because they can flaunt that they beat an "OP witch".
Keeping someone alive is "a guarantee that they will kill you later" and for DECADES now we have cared about staying alive, and not the story of our deaths.

So yeah. Why treat it as scary? Its just inconvenient and if I bash them first I "win" soooooo...

Played a Whiran Travel once unmanifested at the time, was the hunting type so I was out riding a beetle around Nak.  Had all my spells aliased to quick fire, just out of habit.. Guess I was looking one way, riding another.. (not paying attention ooc) Rode my ride straight over the edge into the giant fissure north of town there.. Even after failing my climb checks upon decent downward.. the VERY long decent downward.. I had time to consider casting and saving myself, and chose not to.   Because you're right, the way you die is just as important as the way you live.   Kudos fellow sandboxer

Imagine the story arc for your character if that event was the catalyst for manifesting. Consider that you might've failed the cast and died anyway. But what a great way to manifest! Abject fear and imminent death, and the "sound of survival" pops into your head as the air rushes past you on your way down.

[Windstorm]

I have fairly extreme mixed feelings on this subject and I've been reluctant to share them.

I guess my problem with combat and fighting in Armageddon is twofold:

1. Coded "fighting power" in Armageddon often comes by way of somewhat ridiculous pathways. Either finding questionable ways to get skill failures, or finding high-powered characters to spar with endlessly. PCs who do this can have outsized world impact not even via roleplay but just by sparring a lot; Armageddon is unique in this way, and it is not a good way. It's far more overdue for a change than magickers were.

2. Combat is simply too instantaneous and the nature of it being that way lends itself toward PCs who have gamed their way to higher combat power via oft-unrealistic time investment playing it understandably safe - IE, slaughtering all competition pretty ruthlessly - because they dumped a lot of time into getting there.

I honestly appreciated subguild magickers in that they basically threw the sparring gods closer back toward the range of mortality because no matter how many hours you've dumped into sparring, you could still get fireballed by somebody capable of parrying an attack. With subguild magickers being basically dumped out of meaningful combat capability, I feel a finger's been put back on the scales that empower PCs who go out of their way to spar a lot, and I don't like it.

If we must go ahead with this, I have to beg that we also make sparring less a pathway to godliness. Put a (low) upper limit on how much it increases skills.

[Riev]

no matter how many hours you've dumped into sparring, you could still get fireballed by somebody capable of parrying an attack. With subguild magickers being basically dumped out of meaningful combat capability, I feel a finger's been put back on the scales that empower PCs who go out of their way to spar a lot, and I don't like it.

As a note, many of the sub-classes offer things like Parry so you can still have a full-guild Krathi with a decent level of parry for defense.

Back in 'the day' before these changes, ONLY main guilds offered parry. So there is still that. However, you are correct, the constant in-combat spam needed to 'git gud' can allow people with no Thematic/In Character earned power to suddenly force things to shift simply because "they spent a long time sparring Gortoks"

[Lotion]

I think allowing gemmed into the Byn and the reduction of skillcap for parry+shield for non touched gick subguilds will allow weird metagame strategies around sparring. A raider with a rukkian subguild who is allowed to use various defensive magic while in the sparring ring could raise their def to the cap a lot more easily than anyone else and become a fantastic sparring partner. Every successful parry or block is a missed opportunity to raise your def and with a reduced cap to parry and block your sparring will suddenly have the potential to look very different.

[Riev]

And if that Byn Sergeant allows that to happen, I will leave their friends, familiy, and children splayed out in their public meeting room.

But you're not wrong, for the same reason that getting a REALLY good defensive elf (or half-elf, amirite?) turns into a sparring dummy.

Defense is king. There can be no offense without defense.

[Lotion]

And if that Byn Sergeant allows that to happen, I will leave their friends, familiy, and children splayed out in their public meeting room.

But you're not wrong, for the same reason that getting a REALLY good defensive elf (or half-elf, amirite?) turns into a sparring dummy.

Defense is king. There can be no offense without defense.

Having a strong warband seems like a good incentive to allow it to happen. If the labor of the gemmed is a useful tool this would be an incredible way to harness that kind of utility.

[Riev]

Agreed, but this is similar to 'hiring elves' which was never AGAINST THE RULES it just never seemed to happen (unless I was a Sergeant and @Armaddict was around).

I think penalizing subguild magickers will slow down the issues you're seeing, though I do think 30% is a heavy penalty.

[Dresan]

though I do think 30% is a heavy penalty.

I am going to use this as an example of the general sentiment of some people. However, after reflecting of the upcoming changes within the magefall setting, i have no idea who this sentiment is trying to fool.

Its as if:

• advanced weapons was commonly achieved by everyone
• or if advanced parry was pure shit, even in combination with high defense skill and insane level of magick buffs
• or magick defenses werent powerful and didnt make many mundane attacks moot
• or if certain magickal attack spells didnt rival backstab damage and could be done while wielding weapons
• or that those weapons couldn't now be powerful magick tools

The only thing that balanced all this out in the past was mages were isolated roles with fewer social opportunities. Now with the upcoming setting, mages seem potentially have access to more opportunities then my mundane city elf. While I do think this will be a fun and nessesary experiment to better intergrate the increasing number of mage players in the game, I can also see it very quicky spiralling out of control and making this the second coming of CAM. This could turn mundane characters or those that refuse magickal tools and assistance into second tier roles.


Magic cannot become common and still be mysterious, additionally as has been said before just because magick is powerful in the setting, does not mean you get play sorcerer-kings. At this point 30 percent penalty is probably bare minimun and something more severe like outright removal or strict limitation of magick subguilds (allowing only full magick guilds) is what will be required to keep mundane roles the majority.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd rather not nerf mages and let the spec app system do it's thing, probably with a x mages per y mundane sorta criteria.

[Lizzie]

I'd rather not nerf mages and let the spec app system do it's thing, probably with a x mages per y mundane sorta criteria.

I'd be okay with "soft caps" on mages rather than following a specific rigid formula. Like, the game could accommodate up to 4 mage characters MINIMUM total, no matter how many people are playing at any given moment. And if there are a lot more players making characters next month, you could add a 5th mage opportunity. Out of any given 5 mages playing in the same month, at least 2 of them will be dead or stored next month anyway. It's good to have backups already in game

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd rather not nerf mages and let the spec app system do it's thing, probably with a x mages per y mundane sorta criteria.

I'd be okay with "soft caps" on mages rather than following a specific rigid formula. Like, the game could accommodate up to 4 mage characters MINIMUM total, no matter how many people are playing at any given moment. And if there are a lot more players making characters next month, you could add a 5th mage opportunity. Out of any given 5 mages playing in the same month, at least 2 of them will be dead or stored next month anyway. It's good to have backups already in game

I'm cool with that too.

[Usiku]

Just to be clear... The option of being allowed to hire Gemmed in some capacity for the Byn does not equate to change in the laws around magick. Byn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

[Bogre]

Just to be clear... The option of being allowed to hire Gemmed in some capacity for the Byn does not equate to change in the laws around magick. Byn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Brief summary of changes to the clanning of Gemmed —
There will be a Gemmed NPC in the T'zai Byn and PC officers will be able to decide if they'd like to recruit Gemmed in a limited capacity.
The Tor Academy will welcome Gemmed and magick-powered sparring under the watchful eye of the Scorpion Elite.
The Templarate will have final say on Gemmed accepting employment from a clan. Bribes accepted!

It's sort of pointed to in the Magefall announcement. I mean, it does say House Tor, but I find it unlikely that if its allowed for Tor you won't find people doing it secretly in the Byn. Just like those Bynners could never leave the gates or head into the 'rinth.

[Riev]

Just because "the docs" say you can't have magick on in the ring, doesn't mean people won't put magick on in the ring.

Like @Bogre said ... Bynners also aren't allowed to leave the gates, or go to the 'rinth, and Allanaki Bynners shouldn't be on spice, etc etc.

The rules have to be enforced by PCs first, and if those PCs would rather their elf-mage friends with maximum agility because of spells? They're not going to tell anyone. Which means staff have to enforce it, and no staff wants to enforce that.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Byn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Just because "the docs" say you can't have magick on in the ring, doesn't mean people won't put magick on in the ring.

Like @Bogre said ... Bynners also aren't allowed to leave the gates, or go to the 'rinth, and Allanaki Bynners shouldn't be on spice, etc etc.

The rules have to be enforced by PCs first, and if those PCs would rather their elf-mage friends with maximum agility because of spells? They're not going to tell anyone. Which means staff have to enforce it, and no staff wants to enforce that.

It's illegal. It's not against the rules.

Which means that staff will for sure make sure that you are doing your dirt on the DL, or they will indeed enforce the game world's response.

[Dresan]

I want to note that sparring with magic is like sparring with real weapon, i am not too concerned with people doing it.

However in the past, good sparring opportunities with mages were at times harder to come by, even if you were a hidden mage. Now its potentially easier to train up a mage within certain clans vs being a  mul or halfgiant.

Also magick tools will probably go into more common circulation, sure maybe you wont see people showing it off at the tavern but available enough to the point where anyone adverse to magick will find themselves at great disadvantage in this setting.

Heck, this setting makes mages more fuckable than my mundane city elf. Only time will tell how it will turn out but i can see mundane characters having a harder time being a relevant majority.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I want to note that sparring with magic is like sparring with real weapon, i am not too concerned with people doing it.

However in the past, good sparring opportunities with mages were at times harder to come by, even if you were a hidden mage. Now its potentially easier to train up a mage within certain clans vs being a  mul or halfgiant.

Also magick tools will probably go into more common circulation, sure maybe you wont see people showing it off at the tavern but available enough to the point where anyone adverse to magick will find themselves at great disadvantage in this setting.

Heck, this setting makes mages more fuckable than my mundane city elf. Only time will tell how it will turn out but i can see mundane characters having a harder time being a relevant majority.

This might be a valid concern, but I think a cap on mages solves that problem. A mage can be as scary as they wanna be, but if they are 1 in 10, they are in a strong minority.

[Riev]

Byn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Just because "the docs" say you can't have magick on in the ring, doesn't mean people won't put magick on in the ring.

Like @Bogre said ... Bynners also aren't allowed to leave the gates, or go to the 'rinth, and Allanaki Bynners shouldn't be on spice, etc etc.

The rules have to be enforced by PCs first, and if those PCs would rather their elf-mage friends with maximum agility because of spells? They're not going to tell anyone. Which means staff have to enforce it, and no staff wants to enforce that.

It's illegal. It's not against the rules.

Which means that staff will for sure make sure that you are doing your dirt on the DL, or they will indeed enforce the game world's response.

I fully understand the difference, man, but my point is that the things I listed? Are "illegal" for Bynners to do.

All this would do is require staff to be MORE present in checking if spells are on mages, unless they set up a way to have a Byn Krathi Guard who refuses entry to people who are glowing or whatever.

As I understand it, even with the staffing changes, they are not keen on enforcing these kinds of things. Illegal, or against the rules, the end result is taking staff attention because a player really wants to spar with magick on.