Seasons Q&A

[MarshallDFX]

I have moderated out some personal debate.  I want to try and keep this thread to Q&A and feedback and not people arguing with each other. I might need to look again.

Doing my best to be reasonable

Can you remove all the "my feelings" type shit?  It's a q and a thread not a thread to air your grievances or feelings.

It's hard to disentangle some of it and yes may do another look through the thread later to move posts. but for everybody:

Do use the feelings thread, yes, and try and keep this to more q&a

And look I've not locked the thread for any of this because I'm so desperate for your approval:)

:: worst moderator edit:: you have my approval -mansa

[FamousAmos]

The producers clearly do not give a fig if their destruction and 'rebuild' plans are not taken by the playerbase, they can get new players, in their mind. This was the decision of 5 or 6 people, not the whole staff, because they didn't even tell their staffing team! Just 'a select few' that would share their vision and would help them try and make everyone see it is a good idea.

This is really shocking. Why is staff pushing this so hard?

[Pariah]

And look I've not locked the thread for any of this because I'm so desperate for your approval:)

:: worst moderator edit:: you have my approval -mansa

I'll give you a sorta compliment, you are the least inept of them I've seen.

And since I'm trying to get the train back on the tracks and not be like OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Like everyone else over a text based game...

Question:
So has the first season been decided yet? If so what areas of the world is there gonna be focus on?

If say it's focused in Allanak, will there still be the ability to travel to say Tuluk area or mantis grasslands area or will there be hard blocks on certain avenues to keep you in a smaller play area?

[Boggis]

Why is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

[FamousAmos]

Why is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

[dunecrawler]

I don't understand why there is never a back and forth with these drastic changes. It's not

"Hey players, here's what we're looking to do, what do you think?", it's always

"Hey players, this is how it's going to be, whether you like it or not."

There's very little room to tweak parts of the proposed changes, or fix some issues that will pop up, but the handful of staffers that came up with the plan never thought of. I've repeatedly wished these plans were a little more flexible and open to feedback. There's always big discussions on the GDB that go absolutely nowhere and feel pointless, because staff are going to do what they're going to do and they will not diverge one bit from the original plan, because the plan is not a proposal, it's already set in stone.

[Kenchi]

Not sure if it was asked already. Perhaps someone else can tell me if so.

Is there a chance this will go back to a permanent game and not a 18 months. Like a trial? Or is this set in stone?

I like the idea of consolidating everyone to a certain region, specially for the number of players we have. It will make the city feel more alive.

[Pariah]

Not sure if it was asked already. Perhaps someone else can tell me if so.

Is there a chance this will go back to a permanent game and not a 18 months. Like a trial? Or is this set in stone?

I like the idea of consolidating everyone to a certain region, specially for the number of players we have. It will make the city feel more alive.

Up to the Producers, but it feels like it's a set in stone thing.

[Inks]

[Personal attack removed - Nao]. The work people have put into their PCs over the years absolutely give them the right to be emotional about a hobby of theirs changing/ending so dramatically.

While I know "Seasons" is not for me. I am still interested in reading the opinions and feelings of many of our soon to be former players, as well as those who actually want this.

[FamousAmos]

I don't understand why there is never a back and forth with these drastic changes. It's not

"Hey players, here's what we're looking to do, what do you think?", it's always

"Hey players, this is how it's going to be, whether you like it or not."

There's very little room to tweak parts of the proposed changes, or fix some issues that will pop up, but the handful of staffers that came up with the plan never thought of. I've repeatedly wished these plans were a little more flexible and open to feedback. There's always big discussions on the GDB that go absolutely nowhere and feel pointless, because staff are going to do what they're going to do and they will not diverge one bit from the original plan, because the plan is not a proposal, it's already set in stone.

All of this. Hence my inquiry previous to this post.

[Fredd]

Do we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

[Krath]

Good Question.

[Boggis]

But one of the key reasons we didn't approach that conversation directly is because it's a conversation you guys have had a hundred times over already. All your ideas and input on how to improve the game area already all over this GDB and we have read it all already.

I still think it was a big mistake not to broach the topic directly. Yes such things may have been discussed in various threads but that's just general chatter without any expectation of action. Once a vision on the Staff side had coalesced presenting it as a "here's what we think - what do you guys think" thing would've been far better. And I'm one who basically agrees with the proposed vision - there's some parts I've got mixed feelings about but the general gist of it is good and I think necessary.

Once you present it for discussion first then a) it's not a done deal so less chance for people to fly off the handle (of course some will, it's Arm after all) and b) you've got a chance to hear specific feedback/questions on what are now concrete proposals as opposed to random threads - some of it might be really good and could influence what you have in mind. Even if you decide to not take any of the player feedback on board but show that you've listened and explain why you can't/won't it's just a better look all round. I know you can say you're doing that now but it needed to come first.

I would take your point about the unique player dynamic and I know some bad stuff happened over the past while. But this is essentially the biggest change being proposed for Arm that I've seen in 20+ years. Spending the time to try and bring the players along would've been time well spent. With this abrupt announcement the knee-jerk reaction for the times I play in is that we seem to have lost about 50% of the players. For me, this tips the game from running on the bare minimum for how we're currently setup to kind of unplayable where I'm wondering if it's worth my time to login and just sit in the Gaj for 2 hours and see 1 or 2 people. Maybe they'll come back once things cool down. If not, it could be time to pull the plug and start work on Arm Seasons to get it out there as quick as possible and see if people come back to that.

[Malken]

Do we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

To be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

[Fredd]

Do we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

To be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Lets see: Leaving things on in skeleton mode while things are made would cost them no more manpower. They literally don't need staff for us to run around and punch things and cyber. At worst you need to approve characters maybe once a rl week. So yeah, why not dude?

Just be honest and say that's what's going on. Not really that hard.  People only complain, because they expect a response. Be honest, say no response is coming, the games on skeleton mode until reboot.

Also, if you read the rest of what i pulled that quote from, you'll see that there is NO PLANS to keep us informed on anything. The game goes down, and we HOPE we see this 'small marketing campaign' and come back.

C'mon dude. Your name reminds me of my favorite WOD vampire clan. But not even the malkavians would be crazy enough to to think this is a good idea.

It sounds like they are going to take a vacation from arm, decide not to deal with it anymore, and the game will never open again. And unless some sort of REAL PLAN emerges, it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise. Especially when every response from Hal and Usi  feel that way when I read them.

[WarriorPoet]

Lol wut?

Signs and wonders, my friends. Good luck to you all.

[Malken]

Do we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

To be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Lets see: Leaving things on in skeleton mode while things are made would cost them no more manpower. They literally don't need staff for us to run around and punch things and cyber. At worst you need to approve characters maybe once a rl week. So yeah, why not dude?

Just be honest and say that's what's going on. Not really that hard.  People only complain, because they expect a response. Be honest, say no response is coming, the games on skeleton mode until reboot.

Also, if you read the rest of what i pulled that quote from, you'll see that there is NO PLANS to keep us informed on anything. The game goes down, and we HOPE we see this 'small marketing campaign' and come back.

C'mon dude. Your name reminds me of my favorite WOD vampire clan. But not even the malkavians would be crazy enough to to think this is a good idea.

It sounds like they are going to take a vacation from arm, decide not to deal with it anymore, and the game will never open again. And unless some sort of REAL PLAN emerges, it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise. Especially when every response from Hal and Usi  feel that way when I read them.

Okay, so what is it that you want to hear? You already know that they don't have enough staff to run the game and are running out of ideas on how to save it. What do you mean by "Just be honest and say that's what's going on?" It's in the quote I just gave you. They are also probably burned out, stressed out and let's be honest, probably are not having a good time at all anymore running the game the way it is right now. Halester mentioned that he made a mistake announcing it so early when not all plans had been established. They've been pretty quiet today on the GDB and Discord so let's assume that they are talking about it and will announce further plans when ready? Halaster is also outspoken enough that if they planned to shut the game down, they wouldn't go about it sneakily. They already talked about shutting the game down in the not-so-distant past.

You're asking me my personal opinion - I think it's a fine idea but I also think that this will require a minimum of 6 months, so you need to be prepared to be without Armageddon for at least 6 months. That's a realistic timeline for such a plan, imho. I also personally really like Halaster, Usiku, Enthemu and Eurynomos, so I'm cheering for their success. I don't have to tell you that I'm far from being a staff sycophant, my GDB history speaks for itself.

Just take a couple of days off and do something else in the meantime.

[dunecrawler]

Yeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

[Fredd]

Do we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

To be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Lets see: Leaving things on in skeleton mode while things are made would cost them no more manpower. They literally don't need staff for us to run around and punch things and cyber. At worst you need to approve characters maybe once a rl week. So yeah, why not dude?

Just be honest and say that's what's going on. Not really that hard.  People only complain, because they expect a response. Be honest, say no response is coming, the games on skeleton mode until reboot.

Also, if you read the rest of what i pulled that quote from, you'll see that there is NO PLANS to keep us informed on anything. The game goes down, and we HOPE we see this 'small marketing campaign' and come back.

C'mon dude. Your name reminds me of my favorite WOD vampire clan. But not even the malkavians would be crazy enough to to think this is a good idea.

It sounds like they are going to take a vacation from arm, decide not to deal with it anymore, and the game will never open again. And unless some sort of REAL PLAN emerges, it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise. Especially when every response from Hal and Usi  feel that way when I read them.

Okay, so what is it that you want to hear? You already know that they don't have enough staff to run the game and are running out of ideas on how to save it. What do you mean by "Just be honest and say that's what's going on?" It's in the quote I just gave you. They are also probably burned out, stressed out and let's be honest, probably are not having a good time at all anymore running the game the way it is right now. Halester mentioned that he made a mistake announcing it so early when not all plans had been established. They've been pretty quiet today on the GDB and Discord so let's assume that they are talking about it and will announce further plans when ready? Halaster is also outspoken enough that if they planned to shut the game down, they wouldn't go about it sneakily. They already talked about shutting the game down in the not-so-distant past.

You're asking me my personal opinion - I think it's a fine idea but I also think that this will require a minimum of 6 months, so you need to be prepared to be without Armageddon for at least 6 months. That's a realistic timeline for such a plan, imho. I also personally really like Halaster, Usiku, Enthemu and Eurynomos, so I'm cheering for their success. I don't have to tell you that I'm far from being a staff sycophant, my GDB history speaks for itself.

Just take a couple of days off and do something else in the meantime.

It's not that I don't want to be without arm for 6 months. I take breaks of that long anyways.

What I want to hear, is the framework of contact to bring us back to the game.

Something that sounds like a real plan, you know?

[Halaster]

Not sure if it was asked already. Perhaps someone else can tell me if so.

Is there a chance this will go back to a permanent game and not a 18 months. Like a trial? Or is this set in stone?

I like the idea of consolidating everyone to a certain region, specially for the number of players we have. It will make the city feel more alive.

Yes, it is set in stone, in that this is the vision we have for the game, this is the direction we're taking.  As Usiku posted here we are taking feedback about specific aspects of the plan.  But the meat of the plan - we're going to a seasonal model - is firm.

Is there ever a future where we revert back to the game like it is now?  Nothing's off the table.  We have no current intention to do so, and would most certainly let the Seasons plan play out for a while, but we've said internally along the lines that "if this doesn't work out after a while, we can always revert back".  We're saving the game as it is at the moment we close down for the break.  But I'll reiterate, we have no specific plans to revert back, only a far-off unlikely contingency.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is really the only decision staff can make if they care about the games setting and culture of rp at the heart of this community. Anyone who cares about this games future as a collaborative effort needs to really separate what they personally enjoy about it or are emotionally attached to and maybe think about what is best for everyone.

They can either watch what they love die or actually try something, anything to hold onto what really matters here.

Sadly they might have to lose some of the people who stuck around so long, content.

Hopefully they gain back some of the people they lost who grew sick of the dwindling, listless drudge the game can be with infrequent interaction and everyone playing in their own separate castles.

[Halaster]

Yeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

[frankjacoby]

Yeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

I'm fine with all of the above.

[CirclelessBard]

Given how much abuse and rulebreaking went unnoticed just earlier this year that staff missed despite being present to watch for it, I cannot for the life of me imagine this game running with no staff support beyond character approval. That is setting the game up for certain failure. For all of the possible faults with this idea, the one right thing about it is that this game simply does not work without oversight, and the game will need to go down in between seasons or it will be a distraction for running the next season.

[dunecrawler]

Yeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

Crash reimbursement used to not be a thing, we can do without. We can do without clan forums, special apps and resurrections. I'm pretty sure most of my wishes over the years have gone unanswered. I've never liked the advanced starts. Murderhobo? You still have the option to stop playing, or deal with it ICly. Worst case, you lose your character, vs. guaranteed to lose your character. Game shuts down unexpectedly? Same result as the guaranteed shutdown, really.

Most of the bad things you listed are also a guaranteed consequence of the proposed shutdown, instead of just a maybe-oh-what-if-that-would-be-so-bad. It's like you're preemptively burning down the house, because you're worried that it might catch on fire.