2023 Karma Revamp Discussion

[GreenTransient]

I hate everything after the words "Karma Criteria"

Aside from the fact that some of the points seem to directly contradict each other.
Aside from the fact that, in my personal experience, staff (some at least, looking at you Boo) lack an ability to be indifferent, or impartial in nature.

I'd like to also include, that the less than helpful nature of certain staff members, will make it exceedingly difficult to ever actually pull this shit off.  I mean, I recently asked a member of staff what a reasonable response to an IG stimuli was...

"We typically prefer when players don't have an idea around magick when first encountering it, as it leads to better interaction around how magick is supposed to be treated when you have no idea what it will do. " -Brokkr

This was submitted to me as, useful or helpful in some way, almost a week AFTER the event but staff still wont so much as have a conversation so, how am I supposed to learn?  If I've experienced these things, IG, and conversed with staff to literally no avail?  I'd be much more into a system where I'm being individually evaluated on an intentionally undocumented system, is there was literally any way to learn other than Brokkr's favorite, PC death.

Is there, any type of player protection, from being Karma locked by an individual staffers who's got a problem with a player?  Will players be notified when they receive negative account notes, or is it going to be a fun little surprise that you've got another three months to wait to even be eligible to be placed under the staff eye of judgement again?

Further, does this mean every single time I see a city elf that isn't a complete thieving asshole that I should submit a player complaint and let staff sort out if this is a one off weird elf, or someone that should know better?  Now, if they are a complete thieving asshole, does that make them ineligible for "supporting the game" if they steal people's starting coins as a hobby?  What, if it's their way of life?  I just want to make sure, I'm not karma fucking myself, as I watch what may be "the end".

[kahuna]

I like it. The fact that so many veteran players don't like it makes me like it.

[seltzer]

My only genuine contention with this is the idea that staff will be active enough to be liberally awarding karmas due to observation. It seems like most staff during any given time would rather be doing something else with their time.

I really don't care how this will impact me personally but I do care how I think it'll impact the game. I foresee at least a few people rage quitting and I foresee a huge amount of drama akin to storyteller x gave player y ten karma but I never got any, the game is rigged, something about Nyr.

I appreciate the desire to have a more quality roleplay environment but if there's an unwillingness or lack of energy to address problematic people.. how is this going to change that? They're still going to be here and they're still going to require difficult conversations that nobody wants to have with them.

I'm confident in my ability to get and retain karma. Brokkr's comment about falling on the sword for staff or whatever and the reasoning behind it eroded a lot of my confidence in the change itself.

[Kavrick]

My only genuine contention with this is the idea that staff will be active enough to be liberally awarding karmas due to observation. It seems like most staff during any given time would rather be doing something else with their time.

This is a big thing that I'm worried about too. No offence to staff, but they're not even around to answer my wishes because I'm off-peak, I've had times where I'm about to die to something that should really have staff attention and I don't even get a response from staff. So considering I don't have staff attention in emergencies, will I have staff's attention during casual rp where I'm expressing my character's personality and how they fit into the setting? I wonder if off-peak players were even taken into account when it comes to all this criteria considering the majority of staff are all american.

[Wday]

I am on the fence here with the game and now karma stuff already.  What I can say is over last few months noticed a lot of effort being put in with staff.  But also see and feel a strong favoritism there also.  Very nit picky to a player but you can watch in game a clear favor to another player. So I see a lot of karma troubles coming up.

[CirclelessBard]

The change is understandably painful to veteran players because, from their perspective, they played a long time to get where they were. They feel they had the rug pulled out from under them and while they might be agreeable with the idea that it's for the good of the game, they still have to shoulder a portion of the burden.

The change is also painful to newer players that aren't sure where they stand within the system.

It's worrisome to people that think that the changes will drive away new or recently-returned players when the game already had a large decline in players earlier this year.

It's worrisome to people that are still getting used to trusting staff as a body again after everything that has happened.

I am not really affected by the changes personally, and I am trying to approach this with empathy. I hope other players and staff will do the same regardless of how affected they are or perceive others to be affected.

[Lizzie]

The change is understandably painful to veteran players because, from their perspective, they played a long time to get where they were. They feel they had the rug pulled out from under them and while they might be agreeable with the idea that it's for the good of the game, they still have to shoulder a portion of the burden.

The change is also painful to newer players that aren't sure where they stand within the system.

It's worrisome to people that think that the changes will drive away new or recently-returned players when the game already had a large decline in players earlier this year.

It's worrisome to people that are still getting used to trusting staff as a body again after everything that has happened.

I am not really affected by the changes personally, and I am trying to approach this with empathy. I hope other players and staff will do the same regardless of how affected they are or perceive others to be affected.

I really wish people would stop speaking on behalf of "veteran players." We don't all feel the same way, we're not a hive mind.

I'm a veteran player. I was affected by the first change when they moved 8 karma to 3. I had whiran karma, was going to play one, and then I lost it.  It took over a year to earn it back. When I finally did, they decided to split the mage classes into sub-classes, and took away that option once again.  I refused to play a mage sub-class for almost two years, and when I finally backed down and played one just to see if it was as unfun as I thought it was. I proved myself right.

Now they've changed it all back, we can play full mage whirans again with certain restrictions, and that's great. But now, once again, I'll be stripped of the karma necessary to play one.

I can special app it, and that's fine. But it still feels like a punch in the gut.

That said - I only need 1 karma point to earn that whiran without special apping it. Unless my 3 doesn't automatically convert to 6 as I expect it will, I won't be submitting a request for a review. I'd rather just see how that plays out, if I get awarded that 7th point through my RP or if I'll be "stuck" at 6.  Regardless, I'll still be able to play the whiran.

I'm not upset, I'm not leaving the game, I'm not mad at staff, I'm not "affected" by this. It's a game. It's a break from reality. I can have just as much fun playing a mundane character as I can playing a mage character.  I almost always play humans so if I was new, there would be absolutely nothing stopping me from having fun playing with 0 karma.

[CirclelessBard]

My comment was not intended to speak for anyone. It was intended to summarize the sentiments expressed by different people in different groups and how those sentiments are valid in the face of those mocking people for having those sentiments.

[Fredd]

So now my karma level can't even play mages anymore? And the GMH roles that I like are now Karma locked above the highest karma you've ever given me? Not counting Nobles, which I have fallen in love with each time I've gotten to play them.

Considering your track record of refusing karma. I don't know. I really really do not know about this. I feel like I'm about to lose my ability to app the roles I actually like to play.

And If I can't play what I like, why play?


Edit: Under these rules, I could not play the character I am currently playing. Will I lose it? Will I just never be allowed to play another one of them again even though my thoughts race through ideas of what I can do with the next one I play? I'm seriously worried about this. I LOVE the character I have, and I'm now seeing a wall come up in front of the ability to play abother. A Wall I personally feel I will never be able to climb.

[Usiku]

I wonder if off-peak players were even taken into account when it comes to all this criteria considering the majority of staff are all american.

I am in the UK.

[Usiku]

1. Nobody will have to give up characters they are playing.
2. The inclusion of sponsored roles is experimental and will be reviewed
3. You are able to get karma more than once every three months. Hell, you could potentially get from 0 to 10 karma in 3-4 months.

[Kavrick]

I am in the UK.

I didn't actually know this but it's good to know one of the producers is Euro, I'm also from the UK so it's nice to have someone in the same timezone.

I do want to say, on paper I don't actually have a huge issue with this karma system, if storytellers and such are allowed to more liberally give out karma with less red tape, then it'll work for a system like this where someone jumping from say, 2-3 karma is not as big of a change as in the current system. I had a small discussion on the discord and I suppose the only thing I'd worry about is nepotism, but I do think staff in general have been better about that so we can only see.

Because I'm currently only at 1 karma, I don't actually lose anything from this change, so I don't have a horse in that race.

[Pariah]

So using the highly scientific method of ticking marks on the pad next to me at work when I see a different person, that's 25 people not including staff that all think this sucks.

I do understand that we are a small percentage of actual players, but the vocal minority hates this.

But again, all the criteria that is outlined I'm fine with, minus the fair play rule.

So you're essentially giving players the power to sideline a player for, if I read it right, three months to players, so I piss off <someone> and he slaps me with a moderation warning, might as well not play for three months then come back and rinse and repeat to work within the guidelines of the system, a player...

I actually AGREE with most of the things you're measuring in "good RP" but the tying of whether I'm nice to you oocly to me playing a good mage, or a mul or whatever is ridiculous.  That part should be removed, I could totally see a vindictive Mod fucking people and not just me.

[Riev]

I have a lot of thoughts. I don't think they will matter, or affect anyone's disposition.

But I cannot bring myself to writing paragraphs that will not be read, considered, or cared for. This is a big problem for people like me, who have spent 20 years playing this game who finally got to the 'end of karma' only to have my time and input dismissed with a hand-wave. 20 years, and I finally got to play a mul that got a LOT of kudos for its play. And now, I have to beg and plead to play another if I ever wanted to.

End all be all? Staff complaints of late have been around "There's too much work for staff to do". This feels like MORE work for staff to have to focus on. More special applications that require producer time. More lower level staff thinking Riev should have 7 karma but they have to justify it and do their due diligence. More staff time required to supervise/observe players to ensure they're at the right karma level. The decision seems to be disconnected from the message.

I am heartbroken. I have spent more than half my life playing this game, and the respect for the time and effort just isn't there and perhaps worse? Neither staff nor player seems to care.

[Kavrick]

Aside from feedback, I would like to know why Half Giant and Mul are higher than a lot of magical options? I don't think either of them are particularly stronger than magical options. Just would be interested in the logic behind mul being eight karma for example.

[Krath]

Hey Brokkr,

How many players were consulted on this? How many staffers were consulted on this? To be clear, by players, I mean non-staffers.

Thank you,

[Tailong]

So, when I left in 2007, for whatever reason, life I guess, I was at max karma. I don't really recall what that was, at the time, but I have had desert elves, muls, half-giants, gemmed, rogues..etc. When I came back I had max karma still, three and I used them on my return character.  When I used them they went screwy so I approached staff about it and was told I was docked to one, cause there was no notes on why I was max karma.

I am not the best roleplayer, but I think I am 'okay', and after almost two years back into playing I am still not max karma, but that my fault I suppose. I was about to do a karma review but I guess that is on hold now.

I enjoy playing mundanes. I enjoy playing humans too,  so someone like me will likely never see max karma under this new system. I agree with requiring people to actually play the game and invest hours into certain aspects, but why not just allow time played, and investment into the community be enough for karma? Why not just gate certain races and classes behind special app instead of karma requirements?

Honestly, I could step up and meet your requirements, but I don't want to. I don't want leadership. One character was being groomed for it and I voiced IC  didn't want it. I had it for a short time in a dead clan and it was horrible, and I voiced that in every single leader report I made. I voiced it IC and OOC that I didn't want it. I don't want fleshed out backgrounds. I like developing my character IC, on the fly. I don't want to interact with the community either. I rarely post on GDB, and I haven't been in the discord for a long while. Just read up and you see why. No offense to anyone, but outside of clan forums, I'm good.

I want to play. I just want to play in the server and create half-decent characters that I enjoy and I hope that other enjoy as well, because isn't that the goal? I would like to have the options everyone else has at some point, but there are people in this community that will never attain them, for multiple reasons.

[The Great Corn]

It took me 16 years to reach max karma. I probably could have achieved it much sooner, but for one simple fact: I play this game to escape, to have fun—it's my bread and circuses. I dislike subjecting myself to the opinions of others who get to decide the level of involvement I can attain in this game, which has been my primary source of entertainment. I understand that there are people who have reached the heights of max karma and perhaps shouldn't be there, but after years of anxiously delaying that final karma review, I have finally been able to relax, and it hasn't even been a year yet.

My wife, who also plays this game and is undoubtedly a better role-player than I am, recently achieved her third karma. However, she hasn't been able to utilize any of the new options yet because she tends to play long-lived characters heavily involved in the regions she plays. Now, she, too, will have to grind her way back to the top. Granted, it might be easier for her, but the fact remains.

I'm not as angry about this as I was last night where I saw it right before I went to bed, but it still seems like a real hard blow, seemingly coming out of nowhere. I know better then to think my opinion matters in this game, as much as the word community is thrown about the last year or so, but this hurts man.

[Fredd]

1. Nobody will have to give up characters they are playing.
2. The inclusion of sponsored roles is experimental and will be reviewed
3. You are able to get karma more than once every three months. Hell, you could potentially get from 0 to 10 karma in 3-4 months.

That makes me feel a bit better. I'm still wary. But you know me. I've been a long time disliker of the Karma system. So take my opinion with a grain of salt

[papertiger]

Honestly, I could step up and meet your requirements, but I don't want to. I don't want leadership. One character was being groomed for it and I voiced IC  didn't want it. I had it for a short time in a dead clan and it was horrible, and I voiced that in every single leader report I made. I voiced it IC and OOC that I didn't want it. I don't want fleshed out backgrounds. I like developing my character IC, on the fly. I don't want to interact with the community either. I rarely post on GDB, and I haven't been in the discord for a long while. Just read up and you see why. No offense to anyone, but outside of clan forums, I'm good.

But why should this make you considered over others for roles that can have severely negative impact on other characters? As the scale gets higher, you have more power to end people or shut them down. If your goal isn't pushing rp not only for yourself but others too, why should you be allowed to become a mindbender and suggest they walk into the desert and die or cause them to question their relationships or entire life? These roles ideally are given to people who work to progress the overall story and enhance rp for everyone rather than just shitting on it.

I don't get why people who have been here a long time should just automatically get to play these incredibly high impact roles if they don't have the overarching story in mind, which is why as a newer player I'm for gating roles until some competency is shown. Under the current system I have another year until I can potenyislly get full karma. Under this one, its 2 more years (unless I'm noticed). I do sympathize with things being taken away from you you may have had before as that can feel like punishment. That does suck and I worry all the cool kids who've been here longer than me and who I've so enjoyed rping with will take all their balls and go home. I really hope the players Ive enjoyed rping with will get extra karma rained on them. But even apart from this, 3 karma players get autoshifted to 6 karma and can specapp up to 10 with this system. I'm hoping that will mean something, even if it does limit the amount of fancy roles people can play.

You can get really high without the leadership role - and you can spec app even higher. You can create half-decent characters - you can create characters that are awesome too.

[flurry]

I have mixed feelings about this change. There are some aspects that make a lot of sense to me. A 3-point scale always seemed too compact to me. Also, an anticipated reduction in staff workload is clearly a plus.

The part that doesn't sit well with me is the idea of taking away options, with the carrot that we might be able to earn them back, possibly even quickly. I think it's natural for people losing options to feel like the implicit message is that they are now trusted less than they were before.

Everyone is coming at this from a different perspective with a different history, and my view is through the prism of having reached max karma. Going from 8/8, and then 3/3, down to 6/10 feels pretty jarring.

[Tailong]

Honestly, I could step up and meet your requirements, but I don't want to. I don't want leadership. One character was being groomed for it and I voiced IC  didn't want it. I had it for a short time in a dead clan and it was horrible, and I voiced that in every single leader report I made. I voiced it IC and OOC that I didn't want it. I don't want fleshed out backgrounds. I like developing my character IC, on the fly. I don't want to interact with the community either. I rarely post on GDB, and I haven't been in the discord for a long while. Just read up and you see why. No offense to anyone, but outside of clan forums, I'm good.

But why should this make you considered over others for roles that can have severely negative impact on other characters? As the scale gets higher, you have more power to end people or shut them down. If your goal isn't pushing rp not only for yourself but others too, why should you be allowed to become a mindbender and suggest they walk into the desert and die or cause them to question their relationships or entire life? These roles ideally are given to people who work to progress the overall story and enhance rp for everyone rather than just shitting on it.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I like playing mundanes, and people that have played with me might agree when I say that I don't need a max karma character to involve people, progress story and enhance roleplay. should my preferences though, keep me from playing higher karma characters if I want?

I have never special apped. I will never special app, and I will likely never answer a roll call because that's just not me. I think it's not something I would enjoy. Again, should that stop me from playing a high karma character? I just want to pick things that don't involve staff and play the game.

[Boggis]

Everyone is coming at this from a different perspective with a different history, and my view is through the prism of having reached max karma. Going from 8/8, and then 3/3, down to 6/10 feels pretty jarring.

As somebody who had 8 karma and then took a long break from the game this was my initial reaction after reading the announcement too. But aside from that I think the changes seem largely positive. It seems somewhat similar to the old karma system but more structured and clearer about the requirements and timelines to gain karma. People always complained about the opaqueness of the old system.

Would I like to have the full 10 so I can pretty much play whatever I want? Sure but looking at the requirements it doesn't seem like it's going to be overly difficult to get there in a relatively short time. Overall I think it can work and is a definite improvement on the 3 karma system currently in place.

[papertiger]

Honestly, I could step up and meet your requirements, but I don't want to. I don't want leadership. One character was being groomed for it and I voiced IC  didn't want it. I had it for a short time in a dead clan and it was horrible, and I voiced that in every single leader report I made. I voiced it IC and OOC that I didn't want it. I don't want fleshed out backgrounds. I like developing my character IC, on the fly. I don't want to interact with the community either. I rarely post on GDB, and I haven't been in the discord for a long while. Just read up and you see why. No offense to anyone, but outside of clan forums, I'm good.

But why should this make you considered over others for roles that can have severely negative impact on other characters? As the scale gets higher, you have more power to end people or shut them down. If your goal isn't pushing rp not only for yourself but others too, why should you be allowed to become a mindbender and suggest they walk into the desert and die or cause them to question their relationships or entire life? These roles ideally are given to people who work to progress the overall story and enhance rp for everyone rather than just shitting on it.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I like playing mundanes, and people that have played with me might agree when I say that I don't need a max karma character to involve people, progress story and enhance roleplay. should my preferences though, keep me from playing higher karma characters if I want?

I have never special apped. I will never special app, and I will likely never answer a roll call because that's just not me. I think it's not something I would enjoy. Again, should that stop me from playing a high karma character? I just want to pick things that don't involve staff and play the game.

I think it should stop you from playing the highest karma roles if you're unwilling to push yourself out of your own sphere, yes. Handing high powered roles out to unproven players feels unfair because its so easy for them to shit on others and would likely a bit disastrous to other players.

[Fredd]

I smoked me a bowl and thought about this a bit. and this is my thoughts:

The ability to award Karma quickly is nice. Completely time-locking the karma every 3 months was horrible. i often forgot. Or I would come off a break, play a role and get told "you just took a break, so no." So if staff are more free to reward karma under the new system, this is a good thing.

It will spread out the witches more, which is good.

Locking special app roles behind karma is 100% bad. Apping those roles is part of why I play. It's a big draw to see a juicey role pop up to play and throw your lot in. Maybe say you need 1 karma to put in these apps? That way it's established you understand the world. But to say you need x karma to play a noble?

Some of the best nobles I've seen played were from newer players who ate up the documentation and memorized it. That's just my opinion, personally.

Being rewarded with karma you didn't ask for could give people the warm fuzzies, and I give that a thumbs up too.