Trust.

[Quirk]

Unfortunately, it's never going to be that easy.

MUSHes aren't all perfect havens of trustworthy RPers either, you know. They face the same issues we have, and often solve them in different ways - it's often not really possible to kill a character if the player behind the character doesn't consent to it, for example. Because the things that happen to your character have to be things you consent to, the risks of being spotted while hiding or found out in some wicked plot are much lower and with less serious consequences players are going to be less worked up over abuse issues. Additionally, much OOC communication is frequently present between those RPing a scene in a MUSH to detail how they want the scene to go, and this communication allows word of "untrustworthy" RPers to be passed along rather more straightforwardly than on Arm, where each character begins afresh without the shackles of the last's actions attached to it - from the view of other players, anyway.

People will disagree on what constitutes realistic RP, anyway. I am quite convinced that Rindan is wrong in the way he treats spotting someone in hiding, because I feel that someone trying to conceal themselves will necessarily afford you less chance to study their features than someone who is not attempting to conceal themselves. This is, however, merely my opinion, and just as I'm entitled to my opinion he's entitled to his. Being at odds on this issue does not turn either of us into "twinks". However, there is a spectrum of disagreement here on all aspects of RP, and there will always be someone to claim that their elf riding a kank is just fine given special circumstances, or argue that they can justify using "hide" to disappear from in front of someone they're talking to because their character is really really good at slipping into crowds. There will thus always be conflict between those who believe good RP lies one way and those who believe it lies another. Coded restrictions cut through this like a knife; if the code doesn't allow a particular RP interpretation as valid, for the vast majority of players it will not be valid. Imm guidelines serve almost as strongly as code for many players, but people can and do overlook them more easily. The body of popular player opinion holds a lesser sway still, and there will be more people who disagree with it than who disagree with the way the code works or the imm guidelines.

By all means everyone should RP in the manner that they would like to be RPed with. Sometimes this seems impractical, when facing someone who whether from a different interpretation or lack of thought given to the situation falls back on the code, and RP will need to be adjusted to, say, the problem that the captured hostage that you had emoted as having a knife held to their throat somehow squirmed free of their captor before you could move the knife and is now high-tailing it down the street. That ought not to change your default response to others, but it may force you to adapt to particular characters who play by different rules.

That still won't reduce the value of discussions over what the code should or shouldn't allow. The code is RP law. What it permits may still in some cases be considered poor RP by the imms or the playerbase, but it denies much worse RP. The newbie warrior may emote beating up the grizzled veteran, but the code will correct him. The newbie thief may emote passing unseen through the tavern, but the code will dictate whether that is in effect the case. For this reason, the code will be at the heart of many discussions of issues of trust, for it can transform what most consider poor RP or an imm guideline into law that cannot be overstepped without the consent of other players.

People will never see eye to eye on issues of trust across the board. Sometimes they will get upset that another's interpretation of what is realistic differs so radically from their own. Even in cases when some kind of consensus is obtained, new additions to the mud may take some time to realise it and incorporate it into their RP. Sometimes the code is the only thing that everyone will agree on.

Quirk

[__Torax__]

Why gripe about hide? Well, atleast I dont because most of my PC's that have the skills dont live long enough to be seen by some twink that wants to discover a character and start with the enormously redundant RP. But the one thing I will cry about is sneak. I've said it over and over and frankly, I see almost every PC do it.

When I see someone fail a sneak, I dont instantly look at them suspicious or start eyeing them and talking about them. Sneak to me is merely walking slowly. I mean any good assassin/stealth type isnt going to make it blantant like Austin Powers in Goldmember or something. I mean you can be the most moronic person in the world and be able to sneak fairly decent. But I've seen it over and over that when I fail a sneak people will instantly look at you and tell you to stop.

Example:

1) I watched a former militia PC read the riot act to some elf that fail a sneak check on the roads. Magically he saw this elf out of all the others that are stalking around along with the kanks, wagons and such that are also around.

2) I was sneaking with a former PC that was stopped in the middle of a large city by a templar that was speaking with his guardsman. He was read the riot act and harrased from that point on.

I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think a templar or even Muk Utep could spot a mere commoner in the middle of the road with about a hundred more commoners around sneaking. Only thing I can think of that would get anyone's attention would be if this -SNEAKING- person was jumping up and down screaming, "Yaa baby! Yaa"

Just my thoughts.

[Angela Christine]

I think that sneaking isn't just walking slowly, and is potentially noticable as something unusual.  Now I don't know exactly what a sneaking person is doing that is unusual, they could be walking on tip toe, going out of their way to stay in the shadows or crouching down so they aren't taller than the rest of the crowd, it probably depends on the situation.

Evidence?  When you fail a sneak it says you move stealthily.  If it was just supposed to be walking slowly, then the echo would say you were walking slowly, or simply give the same echo as a walking person.  I assume this is deliberate, and not just an oversight that they haven't noticed in the last 10+ years.  

The result is that a person who is attempting sneak and failing will sometimes attract more attention than if they hadn't tryed to sneak at all.  Given that reality, I would suggest not sneaking in lawful public areas unless you really need to.  Save your sneaking for back alleys and slums, your skill won't improve quite as quickly, but you won't give away your sneakiness to every Tom, Dick and Amos that walks by either.

AC

[gfair]

1) I watched a former militia PC read the riot act to some elf that fail a sneak check on the roads. Magically he saw this elf out of all the others that are stalking around along with the kanks, wagons and such that are also around.

I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think a templar or even Muk Utep could spot a mere commoner in the middle of the road with about a hundred more commoners around sneaking. Only thing I can think of that would get anyone's attention would be if this -SNEAKING- person was jumping up and down screaming, "Yaa baby! Yaa"

With regards to point 1 - you don't need magic to observe someone trying to sneak down the road, if they're sneaking down a road and failing then the assumption is that they aren't sneaking well, and can be seen.  

The problem with this is that neither player knows the playing style of the other.  The soldier may either -always- see the sneak because she/he doesn't know how to play in moderation, or the player just decided that the one elf was the one he did, for legitimate reasons, notice.  How can the sneaking PC be able to accurately tell which type of player the soldier PC is?  You can't without an OOC discussion, which is expressly forbidden, so you simply have to play the scenario out, and hope that people learn from these threads.

There needs to be some general convention on this, because I see a lot of people sneaking and failing, and you can't always have it your way, Mr. Sneak.  Failed sneakers can and will be seen.


As for the second point about people spotting a sneak on the roads - again, sometimes they can be seen, sometimes they can't.  You can't fail sneaking down the road too much (not just blend into a crowd) before the people around you will notice.  Are you taking into account, among those hundreds of people, that dozens of  them will notice someone who is failing at sneaking, and those people give off tell-tale signs of their own, like stopping abrutply, looking down, stepping out of the way, and other behaviour?

So the rule of thumb should be not to sneak down Main Road, Tuluk or Nak, unless you are darn confident in your ability to be able to hide in a large crowd and go unnoticed.  And when you are caught don't make OOC excuses and be reasonable about it, play the situation out, and never assume that you couldn't be seen, because sneaking down populated roads is far more likely to get you noticed by large numbers of people than sneaking down a quiet road under light of Jihae.

[Rindan]

If people are not allowed to notice a failed sneak, why bother having it the fail message in?  That is like saying that people should ignore the tickle in thier pocket when a thief fails.  That is the point of the message.  The code is telling you clear as day that you just caught someone doing something.  It means you DID pick that one guy out of the crowd because he was acting funny.  It means you DID realize that that tugging on your pocket wasn't just a person pushing past.  That isn't to say they can decide to ignore it and decide their PC didn't notice it, but there is absolutely nothing wrong deciding that you did notice it.

This goes back to the issue of trust.  This game is a MUD.  Code is arbitrates many disputes.  This is one example of a dispute that the code deals with.  Only the code is going to be able to fairly decide if you were spotted doing something bad or not.  People still have plenty of room to play around the code, but if the code says you caught somoene, that is a green light to know that your character had the capability to do it.

If I see someone hiding in the tavern with my scan, I will not feel any guilt if I look and remember that person who was acting off.  If I feel a tug on my pockets I will not think twice before shouting thief.  If I see someone sneak by, I will react like I just saw someone very suspicious try and sneak by.  There might be times when I decide not to do this for one reason or another, but I feel absolutely no obligation to make sure I let a few get away as if some how that is superior RP.  The code is there for a reason, and in this case the code is not conflicting with RP.  It is simply settling a dispute as the most fair and impartial party involved.

[Anonymous]

Especially when your a thief.. and you wear one cloak to steal from people and antoher to be seen by people.. Then after you change cloaks the militia spots you, you robbed the Flinka (Names changed to protect the semi-innocent) an hour ago in your hooded brownish, sandcloth cloak. so We are gonna kill you. Even though they didn't see your face or this green and purple hooded cloak. But your guilty..

I've lost more characters that way.

[Rindan]

Especially when your a thief.. and you wear one cloak to steal from people and antoher to be seen by people.. Then after you change cloaks the militia spots you, you robbed the Flinka (Names changed to protect the semi-innocent) an hour ago in your hooded brownish, sandcloth cloak. so We are gonna kill you. Even though they didn't see your face or this green and purple hooded cloak. But your guilty..

I've lost more characters that way.

Obviously they did see your face.  A cloak doesn't prevent people from spotting you or looking at your face.  Further, just because someone has the same colored cloak as a criminal doesn't make them a criminal too.  Switching cloaks is a good tactic, but don't expect it to work 100% of the time.  It can throw of militia if they are running around looking for a guy in a brown robe and you have a purple robed.  However, just like in real life, changing your clothes is not protection that they will not glance your way and reconize your face despite the change in clothing.