Subguild None and Mages

[BadSkeelz]

If PCs skilling up their mundane skills before manifesting is an undesirable outcome, then maybe some of those "quality of life" changes need a rollback. Because that's what we're seeing now.

[Brokkr]

That is not what was said.

Skilling up those skills before having to make the choice whether you are going to be a magicker or not.

As it is now, folks make the choice before they know the outcome.

[Halaster]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.


EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

[zealus]

I am against being able to go from none to magicker unless it is a "random magicker" option, any touched, any elemental magick sub you have karma for, at random. Would be more in keeping with manifesting rather than a gamey character planning thing. Would actually love to play that option.

Hey.  That'd be neat.  I'd go so far as to make it completely random across all subguilds, but that's because I think the 'OOOooooOOOO, I'm a MAGE!' would be both pleasant and unpleasant depending on your character goals; sometimes being a mage ain't a blessing in this world, even though it's what some people like to play.

That's extreme though.  I like random stuff.  Increases playthrough variety.  Makes everything less min-maxey.  I likee.

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.


EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

I would adore this. A lot.

[LindseyBalboa]

When you have to choose whether you will be a magicker or not at chargen, it means going into the character you have no idea how successful, long lived, skilled or stat blessed that character will be. Allowing the choosing of magick subguilds later would mean that you have an idea of all of these things and how well suited the character would be for this or that magick.  It allows only choosing a magicker option when you've already become codedly powerful with your main guild skills and likely creates motivation for doing so. Player agency is fine, except when it creates undesirable outcomes.  These are, to me, undesirable outcomes.

The lore has long been that you are born a magicker, but that ability remains latent until unmanifested.  Over the last several years multiple quality of life changes were made to make being unmanifested not negatively impact the character.

It does allow that. And that is actually currently able to be done by just not casting spells with a magicker subguild. The exact same thing is able to be done now by players that would consider what you're talking about. They can just suicide, die, make a new character, all without putting a RL month or more into grinding a character up to 5d+ played.

However, this would also allow players to consider STAYING a mundane, at a point in which they very likely could be in a clan that doesn't like gicks, have friends that don't like gicks, etc.

I understand how the negative outcomes you described could come into play. However, the more and more I think about this, the more and more I think it's actually a positive in comparison to the system as we have it now.

First of all, for someone to get those mundane skills up high they have to play for a few RL months before suddenly becoming a witch: that means that they have been actively playing Armageddon and assumedly roleplaying and being part of the world. Even if that means they have high  mundane skills when they become a mage, in this scenario what they didn't do is just suicide or die off and avoid RP until they got 'the right stats.' Furthermore, it's a really interesting and less-common story to have a friend that is just now becoming a witch after you've known them for a year as opposed to the norm, which is finding out your buddy has been a witch the whole year you've known them, becoming more and more powerful so that by the time you find out they're already super powerful.

I mean, if nothing else, the first mage is a lot easier to kill and then roleplay feeling bad about. Talk about managing mage population. All they have are weapon skills, and other mundanes have those a-plenty.

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.
EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

Well, Halaster, since you promised this would happen...

Really though I am 100% on board with the idea of letting people manifest in some spectacular way, and letting it be random, and introducing more 'wild' and less 'min-max' to the mage system. I like this idea as proposed for subguild_none, as it 'rewards' taking agency away and being more thematic with the option to wait and see if you find mundane friends first before going ahead with magery.

[LindseyBalboa]

(i don't know why every post i make it quotes itself)

[DesertT]

Instead of completely random, what if a Staff member who approves the app assigns the magick subguild?

This way, they can see what the game already has enough of (or not enough of) and make an appropriate choice for a semblance of balance.

As far as you, the player knows, it would be a surprise.

[Armaddict]

EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

I loves what-ifs and they are the majority of my feedback.  Harebrained ideas, thrown out there just to do something than a bipolar back and forth.  At least more recently.

I love these kind of ideas.

[SpyGuy]

"Alright, got my shield use, parry, climb and ride capped out, time to turn the magick on and really come online."

When you have to choose whether you will be a magicker or not at chargen, it means going into the character you have no idea how successful, long lived, skilled or stat blessed that character will be. Allowing the choosing of magick subguilds later would mean that you have an idea of all of these things and how well suited the character would be for this or that magick.  It allows only choosing a magicker option when you've already become codedly powerful with your main guild skills and likely creates motivation for doing so. Player agency is fine, except when it creates undesirable outcomes.  These are, to me, undesirable outcomes.

The lore has long been that you are born a magicker, but that ability remains latent until unmanifested.  Over the last several years multiple quality of life changes were made to make being unmanifested not negatively impact the character.

I think the lore concerns are strong here but I consider it this way.  A subguild none that was originally planning on going mage but instead chooses a mundane sub is just someone born with the potential for magick but never manifested.  Nothing says they all need to manifest.

I disagree with you about how this would play out. There's nothing stopping someone right now from rolling up a bunch of mages and killing off the ones with bad stats until they get a keeper.  The vast majority of karma players have been playing this game for years and so have some idea how to keep a character alive and train them up, gone are the days when most players die super early. Most combat mages I know of spend a year+ in the Garrison/Byn before manifesting anyways.  One of the things that makes playing in those clans a drain is your buddies going gick.

With a subguild none option some of those players would end up picking mundanes.  They'll have developed stories or risen to leadership ranks they like and not want to give that up.  I can think of 3 PCs: an unmanifested Garrison Captain, a Byn Sergeant and a PClan leader who have all told me they would have chosen not to manifest or picked a mundane sub instead if given the choice.  The Garrison Captain was even in discussions with staff to change their subguild because, being Captain, they saw how many mages were in the Luir's play area and weren't comfortable adding another.

If someone were to abuse this feature after a warning then staff have a wonderful tool available to them.  Take away some karma. Karma is meant to measure trust in the player right?  So why in your opinion are these players not to be trusted to choose their karma class after character creation?

[ShaiHulud]

Delaying subguild to figure out how you want to develop a character possibly with role play. Great. But I agree with staff decision on this, regardless if magickers are known at birth, or can be detected at birth, it is not a decision you get to make after birth. Becoming a dung crafter or clay crafter is, not I'm a krathi or vivaduan.

[Trevalyan]

What if it was like:  change subguild magick <karma level>
So you could do change subguild magick 2 and it would pick any karma-2 magick subguild.  Or change subguild magick 1 and it picks a random _touched one.  Or change subguild magick any and it just picks from any regardless of karma level.


EDIT:  Me theorizing about how this could/would work is not any indication it'll happen.  Just a bunch of "what-if"s with players for now.

I don't know if I have enough experience to be counted, but I think this is a fantastic idea. It'd be nice if the staff could do a personal RPT for the manifestation, but it's by no means necessary.

[Halaster]

I don't know if I have enough experience to be counted, but I think this is a fantastic idea. It'd be nice if the staff could do a personal RPT for the manifestation, but it's by no means necessary.

Not in regards to this idea, but generally speaking staff can and do facilitate 'personal RPTs' for a manifestation if the player asks.  It's not super common, but every unmanifested mage is invited to put in a request or something and say "Hey, I want my character to manifest their magick in some unpredictable way", and staff love to do this.  You can set a date/time for it to happen, you can ask for 'anytime, surprise me!', or just ask for help in a specific way.

[Krath]

Halaster, that change subguild magick 2 would be fucking epic.

[Riev]

Halaster, that change subguild magick 2 would be fucking epic.

Especially with the secret "change subguild magick3" occasionally letting you become a sorceror.

[Patuk]

I'm gonna be the guy:

Can we not even more magickal options? Again?

A third of the MUD is there already; let's not aim for every other PC for realsies. Please.

[Kiyetal]

Despite the more realistic skillset for a living and breathing character I personally haven't enjoyed seeing mages in the world setting since the subguild changes happened. It feels overwhelmingly forced that everything not Tuluk has become a mage haven simply because most pc's can't be openly hostile or against mages without simply losing. Even in Allanak.

I do not like the current state of mages and it makes playing a mundane or lacking karma to play non-mundane demoralizing. More options for gicks in chargen? I'd rather not.

[Trevalyan]

It feels overwhelmingly forced that everything not Tuluk has become a mage haven simply because most pc's can't be openly hostile or against mages without simply losing. Even in Allanak.

I've heard this, and I believe it, but ten mages are technically a Mage's Guild. Twenty practically the next government. If Nak is THAT dominated by magic, secret or not, why keep that secret?

"They can't kill all of us" might be the famous last words, but if this many people don't like living in the Magical Closet, why not choose being out?

[LindseyBalboa]

Can we not even more magickal options? Again?

I do not like the current state of mages and it makes playing a mundane or lacking karma to play non-mundane demoralizing. More options for gicks in chargen? I'd rather not.

but what about more options for people to consider being mundane? because that's the suggestion.

the difference being proposed is:

chargen->picks viv subguild->does not manifest->does mundane things and makes mundane friends->manifests eventually->practices in secret and is exposed as a full witch
vs
chargen->is thinking they'll probably manifest viv but picks subguild none->does not manifest->does mundane things and makes mundane friends->PLAYER decides not to manifest and to stay mundane, picks mundane subguild->this has been a mundane PC the entire time

right now there is no option for someone that picked a mage subguild to continue staying mundane, without giving up the subguild they picked.

hypothesis is: people will pick mundane subguilds if they have the chance after making a mundane life for themselves.

people that want to min-max already suicide and get the stats they want before investing time in RP. the argument that 'players would spend RL time (3 RL months at least) building up their mundane skills and then seeing if stats work for a mage' doesn't really stand up given how easy it is to do that now with much less time involved. it's literally 0 hours of investment to see what stats are.

the worst thing that comes out of this (ASSUMEDLY quick) change is there is no actual change in mage/mundane population. however, even if that is the case, the potential for mundanes to manifest as mages much later means that their friends will have EQUAL footing against them when they manifest.

which also means it's easier to get the other people in your friend group together and dispose of the new mage.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I know we've probably had a 'who's playing what' kind of chart. What's the latest? I am curious to know the real numbers on how many mages vs. mundanes are IG right now.

[Usiku]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

[JohnMichaelHenry]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

If that is close, I don't think 3 out of 10 is too many magick PC's, imho. Especially since NPC's make up most of the population.

[DesertT]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

If that is close, I don't think 3 out of 10 is too many magick PC's, imho. Especially since NPC's make up most of the population.

I'd be curious how many of the rest are mundane sponsored roles.

[Trevalyan]

It's hard to get accurate numbers.. but I think it's about 30%?

If that is close, I don't think 3 out of 10 is too many magick PC's, imho. Especially since NPC's make up most of the population.

I'd be curious how many of the rest are mundane sponsored roles.

So people get role boosts for a mundane role, where they just happen to have magical powers as well?