Feedback on Changes You Want to See

[Halaster]

On behalf of the Armageddon Team, we want to assure our community that the administrative staff are aware of the loss of trust by the player community, and we are actively discussing the issues at hand.  The Producer Team has come up with a short-term plan, that will lead to a long-term plan.  We acknowledge that change is required at this point in the game's life.

The short-term plan is:

1) All staff have been invited to compile a list of changes they feel are needed for the game to continue.  How staffing works, how we handle issues, how we interact with the community, how we conduct ourselves.  Everything is on the table.  (in progress)
 
2) Discord channel for players to provide their feedback.    (done)

3) GDB thread for the same purpose.  (this thread).

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Here are the rules for this discussion.  Please Read!

a)  Nothing is off the table:  how staffing works, how we handle issues, how players should be expected to treat each other, how staff are expected to treat players.  However, this will be constructive feedback.
b)  Name-calling, bashing individuals, trolling, all of that is not allowed. Normal forum rules apply, see here: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html
c)  Do not single out individuals.  Whether pro or against.
d)  We are interested in the opinions of players who want to see the game succeed, and who are willing to help us make it a better community for everyone.  If you have no intention of playing this game again, we do not want to hear from you.  We want the feedback from active, or soon-to-be-active-again players, or players deciding if they want to come back.
e)  Each player is only allowed one post.  Additional posts by the same player will be removed.  Why this way?  So that it helps dissuade people from picking each other's ideas apart, and from bickering.  Hopefully, this allows people to feel they can state their ideas more freely.  So think about your post before making it!

We will remove people from this discussion as we see fit for bad-faith behavior and breaking the rules.  This statement is the only warning that will be given.

Understand that suggesting it doesn't mean we will automatically implement it.  But you have my word that we will read it, and consider it.


EDIT:  Had a couple of folks ask.  THIS is the thread for the feedback, so replying to this one is the intention.

[Jarvis]

Having staff play characters that are not only in leader positions but involved in plots with the same degree as a PC would really rubs me the wrong way. Not only for the possibility of abuse of power and metagaming (which is very incredibly hard to avoid completely by simply KNOWING things even if you are a well disciplined individual), but because it also encourages favouritism. Not to mention it pulls the focus away from "Lets make the game better for the players" and more into "Lets make the world around my character better".

I gave the D&D example before and I'll give it again. Every single DM that plays a "DM-PC" is seen to be a mary-sue sort of character who steals the light away from the party and makes the game vastly less enjoyable by over-writing the story that the players are trying to tell, whilst NPCs with depth that help flesh out and populate the world as the DM's vision characterizes it are priceless additions to help with immersion.

Whilst very alike, RPI Muds don't align 1:1 with TTRPGs, but this point remains.

a) It feels like a waste of a role to have a Staff PC in a leadership position when that could be given to a player.
b) It leads to blatant favouritism (which I do think is bad, because the moment staff gets personally involved with a player or another, it is nearly impossible not to neglect the rest to some degree)
c) Completely eclipses player effort and roleplay (or atleast has the potential to) either directly or by highly heroic plots that read more like a personal fan fiction rather than something cool to include the playerbase  in.

And of course, staff are also people who love the game. That's why they became staff in the first place right? Because they love the game so much that they are willing to put up with the horde of deranged lunatics that we all are for playing this lovely setting. So asking them to have no PCs is also not my point.

But there is a huge chance missed of rolling "no ones", aka grunts and low to medium profile characters and hirelings whose goal is to breathe more life into the world. Set the example of what X role and Y race would feel like under Z scenario. Create animations around you for the low folk instead of the cracked up death machines confined to a magical cubicle in the canyon of Megadeath. Be that one-eyed cripple who's homicidally psychotic at the sight and mention of northerners and acts alike, creating fun scenarios and encounters along the way.

Now, I have no idea what this Resource PC thing is about, I have no idea if this is something staff does when low on manpower, but I think even then if there's no one else to take the role, /let it be/.  The fear of lower player numbers is valid, but trust me when I say that if you shift focus from [IMPORTANT LEADERSHIP ROLE HERE] and breathe more life into the commoner and criminal world alike with the same slot, the numbers will almost certainly increase instead.


TL;DR: Staff PC in leadership roles bad, use grunt PCs to enhance the world and tell the stories you wish to tell, without eclipsing players.

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EDIT: The moderation of Val's feedback felt like it was in extremely bad taste, as from what I had read she had posted everything rather politely and with the best intentions in mind, and it was rather constructive. Its removal comes across very bitter, and feels PART OF THE ISSUE

[mansa]

Mansa's thoughts:   (I wrote this in the Discord, but I wanted to post it again for people who do not use it)

1) Some Definitions:
The staff position is authoritative in nature.  Staff members have the ability to remove players from the game, adjust the player character's pfile, and they are aware of which player is playing which character.  ArmageddonMUD as an entity is also are entrusted with Personal Identifiable Information (PII) data, which is used in the Account system.


2) There is an accusation of harassment from a staff member towards a player.
  a) Can this accusation explicitly be denied because it is absolutely against staff policy?
  b) If it isn't against staff policy, it needs to be, and needs to be defined in a way that both the staff and the players can agree upon.


3) Erotic Roleplay is limited in the consent rules, but there is an imbalance in authority when a staff's character can engage with erotic roleplay with a character played by a player.  The staff member knows who the player is behind the player's character, and the player's character does not know who the player is behind the character they are roleplaying with.
  a) This imbalance is extremely unhealthy to the community, and should be explicitly removed from a roleplaying avenue when a staff member's character is involved.


4) Staff members who have broken any of the staff policies they agreed to should have their staff avatar removed, their character stored, their karma set to 0, and be banned from the community and the game for (at least) 24 months.


5) A player should be able to request that a specific staff member never interact with them.  This will mean that players will have a delayed response and should be expected to have a delayed response in interactions with the staff, because of their special request.  This also means that there needs to be backups for staff members to step in and cover situations such as this - and policy for staff / player interactions need to be updated by this.


6) A player council should be formed to be called upon step into situations where a player and a staff member disagree.  This should allow the player to have another player's viewpoint on the situation.  This player council should be include when players have been silenced and/or banned from the community and request to rejoin.


7) Moderation of the Discord and the GDB should be expanded to select players, as a moderation team.  The staff shouldn't be stuck moderating the GDB / Discord AND answering the Request Tool AND watching players in game.

::Edit::
8 - Players should have the opportunity to fix and clarify and remove account notes that are older than 24 months on their account.

[Kavrick]

So I thought I'd throw in my thoughts. I've only been playing Armageddon for about over a month now and I know that some people may discredit my opinion due to a lack of experience, but I do think I have some sort of value in my opinions based on being  someone who's not just new to Arm, but new to MUDs in general and what the new player experience is.

(if this reply is unrelated and this thread is specifically for the more recent events, feel free to delete this, I couldn't gauge if it was just for staff feedback or for also in-game, mechanical feedback)

Staff Stuff

When it comes to staff and staff interactions, overall my experience has been mostly good. I won't name names and I'll try to keep vague but sometimes it is purely 'a few bad apples spoil the bunch'. I'm not going to speak for the intentions of staff because I like to try and stay good-faith on everything I do. I understand that talking to a new player who has certain expectations based on unrelated experiences in games and that what I say might go against the grain, but sometimes I've had staff be rather rude to me in a way that I don't understand. I think in general if there was a bit of a nicer tone it could go a long way. I understand that tone translates badly in text but I also know that I'm not the only one that feels that certain staff members can come across as rather callous or even antagonistic just in the way they put things. It's not the end of the world but it also goes a long way.

The second thing I would like to touch on is being told if I'm doing something that bothers staff or not. Maybe this is something I shouldn't mention but I also think it's worth expressing. Recently I had been told that a certain request was rejected 'on the basis of my interactions with staff'. I won't go into details because I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to be something that should be shared but I had no idea that staff were upset with me, now I kinda find myself on eggshells trying to make sure I don't mess up. I really enjoy arm, I have a lot of respect for the game and I've even gone so far as ask friends to try out the game, which some have and even stayed on to keep playing, I don't have any ill-will towards staff and I actually like a fair few of them on a personality basis, the idea of something like karma or other requests being rejected because I had done something that I was unaware had given a bad impression to staff of me actually upset me to the point where I considered stopping playing, as trying to play something like Arm while under the impression that staff does not like you is a little distressing.

Game Stuff

Now I've tried a few other games since playing Arm, and honestly I think mechanically I prefer Arm the most. The main issue I have with Arm and what changes I would want to see is purely in clarity. I understand that some things should be secret and there are a lot of things that 100% should be Foic. But some things, especially for a new player are bewildering and frustrating, especially when Vets already know these things.

Things like passive offense/defense/, how to raise them, what damage what weapon does (I don't think you should be able to see specific numbers but at least a way to get a vague comparison like "You feel like you could swing this weapon fast/slow/at an average speed" or "this weapon feels like it would have a strong/weak/medium impact" when you use the assess skill would be perfect alongside the weapon quality system. I know Arm has already taken a good few steps towards clarity with these things, like with weapon quality and the analyze command, which I grately appreciate. This doubly so goes for armor too, I have no clue what armor is good or bad, and because my own combat skills are constantly changing and you dont see specific hits or stats, I cannot guess what armor is good or if what armor i'm currently wearing is even doing anything except slow me down. Again, I don't want specific numbers, I just want a way to find out. There's also a bunch of other arcane systems that I know I cant even talk about or aknowledge they exist. I love stuff like magic being secret, I never want someone to tell me how magic works, I never want someone to tell me how good metal weapons are or even stumbling upon a creature that has no help file is an awesome discovery that I love, I love the game having secrets and I love finding them out, I just think it would be nice to have clarity on some more base systems.

The last thing I would like to see changed is slightly related to the above thing, and that's mostly creatures, danger and some other stuff. I think the game should be dangerous, It's a dangerous world and the savagery and how spooky some creatures is great. I think the main issue is when you find creatures stupidly far from their usualy spot because someone dragged them along. Creatures usually stick to their own habitat and don't stay where they chase creatures to, if creatures after x amount of time started wandering back to their 'habitat', it'd both be more immersive and kinder to the brand new baby scout who walked out of [redacted] only to be jumped on by twenty [redacted] that a veteran hunter dragged back to the gates.
Oh and also it'd be nice if some creatures gave you 'warning' emotes rather than just straight charging you and attacking you, creatures react instantly to your presence to an inhuman level which means a lot of creatures will run into your room before you even get a chance to use your look alias. I understand predatory creatures b-lining for you but some creatures that aren't even carnivores do it, I'm fine with some creatures getting the drop on you and being sneaky, but those things should be sneaking rather than just kinda getting the jump on you because of instant reactions and being in your blind-spots.

Final Word(s)

Overall, I love armageddon, despite the recent stuff, I wasn't really directly involved with any of it and yet I understand that it was incredibly hard, emotional and draining for both sides. I want to see this game succeed and I thoroughly enjoy playing it, I dread the idea of having to find another MUD to play when I enjoy this one so much. I made many friend since joining this community and I always enjoy interacting with new people and characters from it. I would love to see this game succeed and I'm happy to recommend this game to my friends and try and get more of them to play.

[LindseyBalboa]

Sexual harassment - harassment in general - is 100% not okay. Full stop. There is no discussion to be had if that's in question, but I also do not think anyone is questioning that. It's a legal issue and a serious one at that. Please remember that talking about criminal matters, as the victim, aggressor, or witnesses, can and will change any pursuable legal outcome before it ever has a chance to be weighed on its own merit.

That being said, as a gaming community, we have to make certain there is no place for ongoing toxicity, violence, or negativity between members of the community. There's a whole lot that came out and I think we need to change Armageddon's culture immediately.

My solution is simple: Transparency. Staff and players.

Staff:
All official communication outside the game goes through requests.

Post every decision and why: bannings, player complaints, anything official. It doesn't have to be super in depth, and people don't have to agree, but every player who plays this game will have the same information and make their own decision to keep playing - and follow the rules, be courteous, and cooperative with other players and staff - or leave. (edited: player complaints that result in action taken)

Openly post all staff/player rules. Follow them, and punish people who break them. Post these things publicly.

I'd heavily suggest adding a dice system for use when making staff decisions that could in any way permanently affect a PC. If not all the time. Make your lives easier and move any apparent bias or blame away from yourselves. (Edit: Along with this, keeping everything to requests and publicizing decisions means that you can just point to or copy/paste what's been posted - every time. It's way easier to do as staff and it's mostly consistent for players no matter who they're talking to.)

Keep doing what you're doing with code. Make it transparent. The best possible situation for a thriving online gaming community is one that treats the game like a tabletop run in staff's living room. Can you imagine playing a tabletop game and not even seeing the dice you roll? Add a spoilers channel/board, a game mechanics channel/board, and let people talk about the game they play. It's... really weird not to be able to. It's 2023 and Arm still has a 'you can't spend your own money making a character portrait and then show it to people ... for a RL YEAR.' The game is literally stifling free advertising as well as a sense of community.

And lastly... I would really suggest taking some time to just address, or listen to, player complaints from the past 20 years. Or 30, whatever. Let all these players who have grudges they've held 15 years get it off their chest. Then start fresh, leaving the past in the past. It'll probably be uncomfortable, it'll probably be upsetting, a ton of it will not even be relevant anymore, but just like removing karma regen... it'll taper off and there will be time to move on.

And then... Players.

Be transparent. Talk to each other. Have a spoiler channel. Enjoy the game. Post your PC photos.

Treat the game as if you're invited into staff's living room to play tabletop. Police each other. Make friends. Hold negative influences accountable.

Accept that this is a game, and there are rules, and follow the rules. If you don't want to play by the rules, then do not play. It's very easy.

Assume everyone else is playing the game and acting in good faith. This is a hard one. Take a step back if you need to from time to time. Although everyone is here for different reasons, everyone is just some nerd trying to collaborate and tell stories in the desert.

For a lot of long-term players, I imagine it'll be hard to give staff a chance. A requirement of shifting the culture is to put up or shut up, though. If you can't give staff a chance, leave until you can. It's not fair to you, or anyone else here, and it's incredibly unhealthy. This is true for basically anything in life, some niche online text roleplaying game is no different.

A positive community is an amazing thing to roleplay in. I've seen it, I've staffed it, and I've played in positive MU environments. A positive community is one that trusts one another to create stories. Trusts each other enough to fight and run off and make enemies. Trusts each other enough to stop in the desert and roleplay awhile. It's achievable, but it takes deciding to do it.

[Maziel]

7) Moderation of the Discord and the GDB should be expanded to select players, as a moderation team. 

I would like to see the Discord and GDB to be seen as separate entities entirely. The people performing moderation on either in any capacity should not have conflicting interests, nor should they be held accountable to or fear reprisal from the staff that run the game. They should be separate entities. The exception should be for clan specific channels.

Edit: Because they exist to keep staff accountable, players accountable, and exchange information between the two. Thus, moderation should be as neutral as possible to facilitate this.

[DesertT]

1.  No private Staff - Player communication outside of the request tool. This could mean a thread for impromptu/individual questions on the GDB with a post to Discord tagging a Staffer to please see urgent request in whatever GDB thread.

2.  Load distribution - Consider separating game staffing from Discord moderation.  Yes, I understand there will be some overlap, but maybe this will help with staff loads if their focus was in one area more than the other.

With the above, maybe someone only loads wanted items for merchant houses or only builds custom crafts and such, never really being an Imm with all the rights and privileges thereof (mainly figuring out player accounts).

3.  Consider less staff-generated/led plots.  Expecting Staff to also coordinate and generate robust plots contributes to staff load.  Instead, consider giving players a one-time re-roll if a mover/shaker dies.  Let them re-roll as their right hand person, or a sibling who was tracking the family business, whatever.

Also, the less robust plots we expect staff to generate, the less staff is required, the less risk we have for a breach of trust and appearances of favoritism.

4.  Instead of story tellers ALWAYS leading certain clans, consider lifting the glass ceiling on player advancement.  No, I'm not asking for Byn Captains or Militia Captains.  But Lieutenants? (yes, i know)  Maybe someone makes tribal leader or at least to the council.  Maybe a Senior Agent/Merchant/Dealer, then that player represents the clan's direction instead of always being led by a staffer.  Yes, they'll still have to have staff support and some guidance.

5.  Don't allow ALL staff members to be able to discern which player is playing which character.  Implement levels of trust.

6.  No upper level staff playing nobles, templars, or senior folks of GMHs. Council member of the Sun Runners?  Sure.  Reaver of the Crimson Wind?  Sure.  If this means a role call goes vacant, it goes vacant, or we come up with a work around.

7.  No more lies. If a Staff member is asked a question, they should not lie about it.  EG: did Merchant Theo store?   The answer should be:  you should continue play as though said character was still just as active as they have been.  OR  that character has stepped down from public life.  That's just one example.  I can provide others.  Being told that there's no such unit as the Dusky Gortoks in the Byn, then I provide a link and copy the unit name exactly, then getting told, they're not open to players, then seeing said unit being open to someone else that month...

8.  Sexual harrassment claims should be investigated by a panel mixed with staff and a player representative, however, these claims should only be investigated within aspects of the game, the GDB, and Discord.  Outside platforms like Facebook Messenger (yes, I'm old), or whatever should not be the main evidence.  The other platforms have their own moderation teams to be appealed to.  There should be a player representative who has gone through appropriate sexual harassment assault response prevention (SHARP) training, and they will take up the cause for the one filing the complaint.  This will help alleviate staff from having to find time to validate every charge themselves.

9.  Tighter restrictions on when staff can log onto their player account.  No dual logging!  Period.  Maybe a 20-minute self-imposed lag switching either way.

10.  Less animations to correct perceived player's incorrect roleplay and more allowing PC leaders to handle their subordinates' misdeeds.  What?  A gemmed is walking around with magick on?  Inform the Templarate, maybe the militia.  What?  A Runner is leaving the gates, skipping out on training?  Inform the Sergeant.  What?  A Kadian crafter is sleeping with a gick?  Inform their Merchant.

11.  A player can request to not have a certain staff member handle their issues.  The limit is three.  Beyond that, maybe they should consider playing somewhere else.  If none of the staff in their clan are allowed to deal with them due to this, the player either accepts zero staff support or moves to a different clan or stores.  We can all read the staffing assignments and see who is where.

12.  Lighten the strictness on retconing PC deaths.  If someone was afk or maybe a flock of aggros followed them into a city where reasonably, they should've received some assistance... let it go, especially if there were no PC witnesses.  Also, PC's who get griefed (situation dependent) should be allowed a retcon.  The rules are pretty strict right now, but they have been bent and broken more than a number of times to consider lightening them.

13.  A Monthly punishment report.  The military does this.  Every month, a report (purged of personal information) is put out.  This would look like:
Charge:  Misdeed
Finding:  Inconclusive
Result:  Character stored (voluntarily)  <---results in lesser penalty

That's all I have for now.  I understand that I cannot post more later.  Maybe I'll edit though!   

P.S.  Please take ALL of my ideas for City Play improvement as well!!  

[Windstorm]

We didn't actually need 4 pages of this, much's it might be cathartic to people. The answer is super super super simple and should have/could have been applied within 48 hours.

It's not too late.

1. unban everybody

doesn't matter what they did. doesn't matter if they were involved with the current situation. just delete that banlist and start over fresh-- those were decisions of a previous administration that was clearly not about it. don't make anybody beg for it through the request tool. just do it. bans are about pointless anyhow.

2-3

4. staff announcement stating: we fucked up and we're digging into some ideas and structures what for not fucking up no more.

5. proceed to not fuck up no more

Who is right and all the fingerpointing/back and forth he-said-she-said doesn't matter. The community matters. You can repair the community with extremely simple steps without over-complicating things.

Old grudges don't matter. Let it go. Let's move forward.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm listing my suggestions in what I perceive to be their order of impact on the game, from most radical to the least.

1) Abolishing the IC/OOC "firewall". We need know who is playing who, who is staffing, who is animating.  We are all adults playing a game. We need to trust each other and ourselves to police our behavior, and that is impossible without knowing who we are dealing with. Anonymity has depleted trust among the player base in Staff and in each other. Either we trust each other to play together in good faith, or we don't play together at all. Anonymity, especially the privileged anonymity of Staff, is inherently conducive to bad faith play. It always has been, and it always will be as long as it is a feature of this game. The IC/OOC Firewall has allowed misdeeds to flourish by enforcing a culture of silence, where only a privileged few are allowed an official narrative. Everyone in this game needs to be able to freely call out bad behavior, and everyone in this game needs to be able to judge it on the same evidence.

If we are worried about our personal reputations adversing affecting our gameplay experience, we should reflect on what we've done to earn that reputation.

2) Review of Staff PCs, staff "Resource" PCs and otherwise. No more Staff PCs in privileged positions. I would say no Staff PCs at all, except I have to acknowledge the value that actually playing this game gives when it comes to coding Quality of Life improvements. But for any Staffer who has the privilege of animating and reading other characters' reports, they cannot be allowed a PC. The potential for conflict of interest is too great. It is a malignant source of distrust that can only be removed by Staffers stepping back entirely in to the role of referee and storyteller. You cannot be a player and refree in the same game unless -everyone- has the ability to equally call foul.

3) Removal of Staff name tags. Players who become staff should not be able to escape their reputations and hide behind privileged anonymity.

4) Staff term limits. In the interest of making sure staffers stay in touch with the actual feel of the game, they need to stop staffing and join the rest of us in the trenches. This would really only be meaningful if points 1 and 2 are enacted (otherwise an ex-staffer generally remains an inherently favored player). They can always reapply.

5) Reducing the importance of Role Calls in favor of Opt-in Applications. Role calls put a lot of pressure on staff and players alike. The stakes and bureaucratic workload are artifically high, particularly for sponsored roles who are perceived as being "necessary" for the game to run. I would both challenge that assertion, and offer an alternative means of fulfilling those roles: let players apply to them like any other karma-restricted choice. Make "Borsail Noble" a class option. If no one wants to play a Borsail noble right then, leave it open until someone feels like it. Abolish the "fear of missing out" or "bad time" feeling that role calls give the playerbase.


ETA: This thread rule d) "we don't want to hear from people who aren't coming back" is a bad rule. At best it's going to encourage a sort of "survivor bias" in the feedback you do receive. At worst it serves as proof that Staff cannot take criticism of their sanctioned clique and that this whole thread is just an empty gesture.

Final suggestion before the lock: Rework Staff powers to follow a "principle of least privilege." There have been a lot of Staffers who have been straying "out of their lanes" when it comes to animations and reading reports of late. To help limit the potential for Staff cheating, Staff members should only be able to see the absolute minimum of what's necessary to do their "jobs." Storytellers and Admins should only be able to view reports tagged with their clan(s); they should only be able to animate PCs belonging to their clan(s). Staff should only interact with PCs not of their clans when they're either a) animating NPCs to fight off non-clan aggressor PCs or b) on their own PCs who are dealing with the same limited information as the rest of us.

Following on that, the Immortal channels and board should be compartmentalized and restricted to only be within their own clan(s). Any communication between teams should be highly regulated.

[Supified]

I know I'm not a player, but I'm going to respond anyway.

1> Loosening the perm death no retcon rule.  This should include all acts done to a pc and it should not matter if someone witnessed it or not because that seems like an abuseable loophole.  If a rule is broken in causing a player to be killed or harmed, the option to undo it should very much be on the table.  Otherwise abuse holds more power over following the rules and that sucks.

2> Major actions need to be slowed down where possible, this applies mostly to players in power positions, but there should be time and options to let the world react, the world that would react if people didn't have playtimes.  This severely takes power away from pc enforcers, but otherwise their power because of the WE NEVER RETCON RAR, is just too darn strong.

3> There needs to be an appeal process and it can't just be to staff because it feels like you can't win against staff as a player and they're typically not pleasant interactions. I think it makes people disinclined to disagree with staff because there is then also the perception that disagreeing with staff can harm your pc in game.  And who knows, maybe it did, heck considering where we are it -probably- did.  Players who are not on staff should be able to review and overrule or have a hand in that in some circumstances, perhaps these can be player elected roles.

4> Any rules against staff killing pcs or that dictate how staff kill pcs should be very strictly enforced with the added caveat that it's still a staff member killing a pc if they essentially ruin the pc (I didn't kill them I just cut off all their limbs, see? kosher), or the staff members facilitating pcs doing it.  This game should have conflict but it shouldn't be led by the hand by staff. 

Lastly.  This game shouldn't be all about being harsh.  Yes it's a big part of the game, but I feel long has it been done to the absolute detriment of the game itself.  New players arn't going to come back if they get screwed to death instantly.  Old players are going to get sick of rolling up a new character and starting from scratch.  Murder death and betrayal sounds metal, but thre is a too far and this game has long since crossed that line.

[Kankfly]

I have posted before in Shabago's feedback thread regarding the game. I know the example that I've used is documentations, but like I have mentioned before (or maybe I haven't) this is a symptom of a bigger problem. I'm just going to reiterate this: That if the game - and I mean staff and players, but mostly staff, because unfortunately, staff do make up the backbone of Armageddon, since they facilitate play - don't take themselves seriously, then there's no reason for any of us to.

This not only includes documentations, but also rules that all of us have to uphold, including regulations - such as putting in requests and making official communications official for example. It is paramount that these things should be stricter, or it's just going to be a slippery slope from there.

[Quittle]

Edit: Turns out I'm stupid and sensitive, nothing to see here.

7) Moderation of the Discord and the GDB should be expanded to select players, as a moderation team. 

I would like to see the Discord and GDB to be seen as separate entities entirely. The people performing moderation on either in any capacity should not have conflicting interests, nor should they be held accountable to or fear reprisal from the staff that run the game. They should be separate entities. The exception should be for clan specific channels.

Edit: Because they exist to keep staff accountable, players accountable, and exchange information between the two. Thus, moderation should be as neutral as possible to facilitate this.

[Reiloth]

I'm not sure many people care to engage with Staff and their rules, considering they have broken them time and again themselves.

A plethora of great players are now gone, and gone for good. You aren't going to see them again.

Like with dying relatives and pets, it's sometimes difficult to see the end coming until hindsight settles in.

It's time.

Thanks for the memories. Peace and love.

[Halaster]

More transparency and less arbitrary moderation. I would have edited it into my last post if that was possible.

I posted the following, and then arbitrarily got banned from being able to view this thread with no explanation. Is it ironic or tragic that this is a working example of why my advice is badly needed to attract players like myself back? I've been following the GDB and playing Arm on and off since 2010, and this is exactly the type of behavior that drove me away to begin with. I may be interested in coming back if you can fix really basic fundamental issues like this.

With neutral moderation, such and such wouldn't have gotten butthurt and arbitrarily banned me from accessing this thread for writing relevant and succinct feedback.

If all posters are being removed from being able to access and view this thread after providing feedback, that was not transparent.

7) Moderation of the Discord and the GDB should be expanded to select players, as a moderation team. 

I would like to see the Discord and GDB to be seen as separate entities entirely. The people performing moderation on either in any capacity should not have conflicting interests, nor should they be held accountable to or fear reprisal from the staff that run the game. They should be separate entities. The exception should be for clan specific channels.

Edit: Because they exist to keep staff accountable, players accountable, and exchange information between the two. Thus, moderation should be as neutral as possible to facilitate this.

Staff aren't really going to be responding here, but, I'm confused by this.  We do not ban people from this thread once they've posted in it.  If you saw that kind of behavior, then maybe we configured something wrong?  No one has been banned about this.  Feel free to PM me here, or DM me in Discord.  But neither account is banned.


EDIT:  Issue sorted.  They had accidentally set their timer for login expiration as 1 hour, and they had been logged out, didn't realize it.

[Master Color]

Reorganizing my post. Here are the surface problems that I see that need to be addressed at minimum. I'll leave solutions to better minds.

1. Extreme hostility from staff for minor infractions. Things like low playtimes or telling an unflattering story on the discord or leaving my pc afk for something I had to handle at home. All at some point been met with inexcusable levels of hostility from one or more staff members.

2. Inability to address abusive staff. If I have a bad interaction with a staff member, what do I do? Put in a complaint? Fuck no. I have literally been warned not to do that by current staff members in reports where they were abusing me. But if I do put in a complaint after the fact when invited? At best, nothing happens.

3. Inability to address or avoid abusive players Currently we are not allowed to talk about players who have abused their positions in the game world. Player complaints never result in any sort of action. In some cases these players remain in positions for years and serve only to make anyone playing around them miserable.

4. Roleplaying in a toxic enviroment I contend Armageddon is toxic just by it's nature. The monsters are way overtuned, the skill grinding required to overcome them takes bizarre investments of time, leaders have carte blanche to off you and your entire investment for basically no reason. Roleplaying in ANY negative fashion against another character can get you killed. Aligning yourself even mildly with or against an ingame group can get you killed. This has an overall chilling effect on roleplay and HUGE incentives to just skill grind.

[jalden]

Armageddon mud isn’t just the best MUD I have ever played, it is the best MMO. And that is entirely because of the roleplay focused community. I would really like to see this game thrive. I don’t get to play right now because I have toddler and a career. But I think about this game all the time 😊.

I feel like transparency would go a long way towards healing this community. “We have kept to a set of policies that were put into place long before a lot of us arrived on staff.  Some of us agree that some of those policies need to be changed, while others feel that the policies are currently fine the way they are.”

Would staff be willing to share what these policies are?

The book “Management Lessons from Mayo Clinic” has some really interesting insights in how to run a non-profit organization. It might sound strange to talk about a healthcare organization, but I think the way that there organization is setup would work for almost any non-profit organization. Mayo Clinic is one is one of the best (possibly even the very best) healthcare organization in the US by any metric. Their patients are way more likely to be satisfied, patients get treated faster, less mistakes are made, they treat a crazy number of patients every day, and their employees are happier.

Mayo has a committee for virtually everything. These committees research various aspects of healthcare with an eye on increasing quality for patients as much as possible. These committees make recommendations on policies based on consensus and bring these policies to the board of directors. Then the board of directors votes on whether the policies should be implemented. Everything at Mayo Clinic is done by consensus. Committee members are simply experienced doctors.

I think that this could be done with experienced players. This would have the benefit of helping players feel heard. It would also have the benefit of creating a vehicle for constant improvements to the game. Mayo Clinic also has term limits for all of its leadership positions. It varies by position, but it is usually a maximum of two four-year terms. I recognize that it would take a lot of work to implement something like this.

Things staff could do to improve player/staff relations:

1. Create clear, player-centric guidelines for what staff communication with players should look like. These guidelines should be readily available and crafted by both staff and players.

2. Demote staff who do not follow these guidelines.

3. Automate receiving the first couple points of karma after enough play time. This reduces the workload for staff, and it would be good for player retention.

3. Require players to be 18+

4. Create a karma granting system that has some kind of checks and balance system built into it. Anytime karma is granted at least two staff members should be involved. One staff member who thinks the karma is warranted and can give a short explanation for why. And a second staff member who approves or disapproves of the karma boost. Make this system transparent. This helps avoid situations where a player may feel pressured by a certain staff member to do things in order to get karma.

5. Separation of duties. In order to avoid corruption, staff duties should be as separate as possible. The person who can give karma should not be the same person who can moderate the forums and make code changes to the game. These should be separate duties.

6. Don't create plots that involve sex. Anything that involves sex should be player driven and only player driven.

7. The primary criteria for hiring staff should be having a reputation for polite communication, emotional maturity, and loving the game. These shouldn’t be the only criteria, but I think they should be the most important criteria.

8. Staff activity should be reviewed by some kind of staff board every so often. And the board should rate the staff member on a few metrics (examples: engagement, fairness, being polite to players). Some of the metrics, like being polite to players, should be outright requirements. Staff who are not behaving appropriately should be demoted. 

[creeper386]

EDIT: Removed because I do not plan on playing the game further.

[Katima]

Just an informational post to let folks know that guests can now see this thread. If I notice it increases the lag on the GDB significantly in a way that will be detrimental to the flow of the discussion do to constant lags/hangups, I'll remove guest access again.

[Fredd]

 Staff Need to stay out of leadership positions. All of them. Their position gives them insider knowledge you can't reasonably expect them to completely ignore when it effects not just them, but everyone their character cares about. I'de even say that Storyteller type staff shouldn't even have an active PC. You have npc's and stories in the works. COI can easily come into play if you have a PC.

I saw a staffer lose their leader pc and their staff position, because a player dmed a staff on discord, and didn't want to use the request tool, "because they didn't trust other staff."

Yeah, that sorta thing should never be a thing.

[Halaster]

Quick reminder about

e)  Each player is only allowed one post.  Additional posts by the same player will be removed.  Why this way?  So that it helps dissuade people from picking each other's ideas apart, and from bickering.  Hopefully, this allows people to feel they can state their ideas more freely.  So think about your post before making it!

Deleted a 2nd post of someone.

I want to clarify, editing your post is fine if you wanna refine your idea, reword it, thought of something else, that sort of thing.  Don't abuse editing it to start having conversations and stuff, heh.  Let's stick to the spirit of this rule.

[LidlessEye]

I would like to start off by saying that, my experience thus far in my two years of playing has been positive where staff is concerned. However this isn't a singleplayer game and I shouldn't be satisfied with my own satisfaction.

My suggestions have been enumerated below:

1) Staff should not be playing clan PCs and if they do, it should be very low level. Their PCs should be like Gandalf (in the books, not movies) wandering about from place to place and setting an example for RP. Otherwise they ought to be focussing on their clan's plots and not their own. If they have a respite from clan duties? Go and animate something somewhere that gives some more color to the world. There have been times I've sat alone in the Gaj thinking it would be nice if Vennant spoke or some drunk did something funny.

Another concern with staff PCs in clans is, if the Player leader comes to know of the identity of that staff PC, they may be concerned that if they are too harsh/not too lenient towards that staff PC, they might get in trouble, and the other PCs might also resent that their staff peer gets away with more (whether this is the reality, or merely the perception.)

2) Tours of duty: imo staff should only staff for a short while before returning to the regular population. This should vary: storytellers for X time, and Admin for 2x time and the 'changing of the guard' should be staggered so there's always someone who's been there awhile, to bring the newcomers up to speed.

3) I'd prefer a back and forth on discord for clan questions and quick reports from players to staff alongside the character reports over request tool. If you feel discord is non official and cannot be monitored, how difficult is it to make a chat box on the website? ----> it isn't meant to be a rhetorical question; I literally have no idea how hard or easy it is.

4) Flags on PCs to show if they're up fir certain kinds of RP or not.

[najdorf]

Prevent staff alt PCs to engage in any murderous plots vs player PCs.

Staff alt PCs should never engage in any sexual attemp or encounter with player PCs. Even if player initiates the first attemp, staff pc will forfeit clearly.

remove subjectivity from game rules, make them sound objective simple rules. when there is subjectivity it always ends up in how people feel and how they are offended vs these experienced feelings

A higher order non executive audit mechanism to be established from 2 current or previous player or staff members as a key element of seperation of powers. These members should be elected initially by admins, and removal of them should not be in admins authority from the point of appointment. consider it like a high court or crown court. if they retire, they will elect others in their place. they will be acting as a high order appeal court for players who cannot have their voices heard to staffing team. since they cannot be removed from staff, they will be clear in their judgements.

[Brytta Léofa]

(1) "Be nice to players"

As Eukelade has said somewhere: "be nice to players." No exceptions. Even when we're needy or aggressive or cheating.

Staff need to once and for all put a stake in all adversarial handling of players, both in public (rudeness, condescension, one-sided joking in requests and wishes) and in private (complaining about or belittling players in staff-side communications). It's been going on for years and years, it's self-perpetuating, it's a root of every kind of evil.

I applaud the efforts y'all have made in recent years towards improving staff/player relations. But it has not been taken seriously across the board. Multiple staff are still being rude to players in requests, and avoiding that should just be table-stakes.

Edit:
(1b) "Punishments"

20 years ago I had an account on everything2.com. I did some stupid bullshit and the dread administrator dannye "cursed" me (removed some XP points). As I hope you would expect of 22-year-old Brytta, I edited the text out of all my posts ("nodes") and ragequit. They even had a term for doing this: "asamothing," after the first well-known user to do it.

A couple years later (I had a new account, heh heh) they switched to a carrot-only approach to user management.

I think Arm should move in that direction as well: granting and removing privileges based on trust (no way around this), but eschewing punishments per se. The distinction is that a punishment goes beyond the natural consequences of rulebreaking (reduced trust) for the purpose of making people afraid to break the rules. Unfortunately punishment just doesn't work very well (no one ever plans to get caught) and it creates an adversarial environment.

(Heh, I just imagined a world in which every historic Arm griefer and multiplayer is allowed to play--but only geofenced wildlife.)

(2) "Staff can't investigate staff"

My expectation is that most staff complaints are unfounded: a player got suspicious because they couldn't see everything that went on, right? I also believe that the staff organization is too self-protective to catch the real problems. This is not because staff suck; it's typical human behavior. It's why it is normal everywhere for whistleblowers to get screwed over.

I believe that we have had people staffing in the last year who _very clearly_ should not have been, and we have had players leave who _very clearly_ would have stayed if we weren't fucking up really bad.

I don't know how best to fix this but I think some kind of third-party involvement (a "player ombudsman," mansa's "player council," etc.) is important.

Edit:
(2b) "Acknowledge bad actors"

I can't recall ever hearing of a staff member being demoted or removed due to a player complaint. Has this ever happened? I think it's really important that it be publicly acknowledged when staff are disciplined. How else can we have any confidence that staff complaints don't fall on deaf ears?

There should not be a privacy issue with acknowledging that a staff member broke game rules. We all hate doxing, this isn't a doxing issue; it's simple accountability.

This also gives staff the opportunity to hear complaints from people who may have felt that something was wrong but didn't want to rock the boat.

(3) "Review how we use secrecy"

I think we've come to confuse IC and OOC secrecy. Letting IC events be discovered IC is a vital part of the game. Keeping secret who plays what...actually isn't. I think that relaxing how we handle this will strengthen the community and provide a lot of trust benefits over time.

I think resource PCs should be clearly identified - no, not in game, but e.g. when anyone references them in a character report. If this is at odds with how resource PCs are being used, please take a serious look at why.

I think it should be okay any player to voluntarily identify their current character, with some caveats about not revealing PC deaths. Players who post on clan boards or post event announcements are already doing this. It's a change that will cause problems but not unmanagable ones.

I agree strongly with Lindsey's suggestion that you publically post decisions and reasons on bans, player complaints, and similar (I'd add staff complaints). I think we have veered too far in the direction of staff and player privacy when we actually needed more transparency.

(4) "ERP and consent checkup"

Hypothetical situation: 16-year-old PC stripped naked and scourged. No consent asked for. Is problem? IDK, I think a disinterested observer might say yes.

We're running a game in 2023 with, in some cases, 1990s levels of hornt. I have ERPed in my lifetime and I don't care what y'all do but I think we may need to rein in anything that smacks of nonconsent one more notch.

NPCs, resource PCs, and PC-PCs of current staff need to operate at the highest level of scrutiny here. This means that at a minimum you guys have to leave the young woman's shirt on. And tbh you should probably put a hold on the ERP while you are actively staffing.

(5) "Mix up the player/staff dynamic"

Normalize staff taking a break.
Normalize players staffing under their player name, if they want to.
Make 2+ karma players review character applications (no magick, no sponsored roles). (Yes, this leaks some background information. It's okay.)
Require staff members to go on hiatus for 6 months every 2-3 years. Don't let them use immchat during that time.

The church I grew up attending elected lay (non-clergy) leaders like this:
- A nominating committee (separate from the board) met to make a list of people who might be good leaders.
- People on the list who agreed were presented to the whole congregation for a yes/no vote. Typically a rubber stamp, but it gave a place to object or to propose other candidates.
- Elected leaders went through some training and then served on the board for 3 years, with a mandatory year off after.

That's just one example of a not-exactly-democratic way of selecting volunteer staff that provides just a little space between "current staff" and "new staff" and includes a level of direct accountability to the community.

mansa suggested expanding GDB/Discord moderation to players. Consider not only expanding moderation, but spinning it off entirely to players who aren't currently staffing. (This doesn't imply any change in the poasting rules.)

misc so it doesn't get lost

Whiskey Balboa (Today at 11:32 AM):
"staff names being attached to the notes they made pretty much puts account notes on the right level of transparency imo."

[H182]

I think that staff need to take control of their IP and the game again.

There has been a lot happening that seems to also hinge on the opinions of the very focal
players of the forum /discord  who do not represent the opinions of the game as a whole. These players
are now speaking for everyone, even those who just play the game and are not part of ooc
community, and do not want to be.

Some people play the game because they enjoy the IC and the roleplay
and do not touch the community aspects at all, since it is not about the OOC.
But then log into the forum to see players being demeaning to staff, treating them
horribly, and subthread on subthread discussing every single thing .


-- How to fix  for all ---

INGAME MENU, ACCOUNT LINKED POLL OPTION on the first menu.

I think that if staff really wants to get the opinions of the players and not just forum / discord
users... that a simple option should be attached to each account of the player under the menu login.

This option will take the player to an account poll where the player of the account can access a
staff question with options 1 -  or choose custom response and type it in. There will be a notice
on the login menu of a new poll, or unanswered one for each account.

It means each player account gets a voice, and players do not have to partake in the drama of the
forum / discord, where there are often aggressively verbal players / toxic situations. There should also
not be threads discussing each poll. Just let each person have their own, private opinion, personally
shared with the staff on their account.


This way, EACH PLAYER HAS A VOICE -- not just the ones who are willing to get their hands dirty facing
the 'ooc crowd' on the forums and discord.

--------------------------------------------------
Example

Welcome back, H182

Press RETURN to continue.

                                _______                                ___
                              /\\_____//~-_                        _-~\\__
                             (~)       ~-_ ~-_                  _-~ _-~   
                            (~)           ~-_ ~-_            _-~ /-~     
Welcome to Armageddon!     (~)              `~-_ ~_======_--~~ __~       
                          (~)               _~_\__\____/__/_--\ ~`-_   
                           \           _-~~            _-~~~-_ \_  ~-_ 
You may:                    ~-       __--~`_    /   _-~         ~.     ~_
(C) Disconnect from character      -~        \     _~       ___,  \ ~-_  \
(L) List your characters         ,~ _-,       ~  _~         \   \  | , \ \ 
(V) Toggle ANSI/VT100 mode      / /~/      -~   /            ~  /  /  \~  \
(B) Toggle 'brief' menus        | | \     _~    |        __-~  / _/  \~  '\
(O) Show Race/Guild Options     \ ~-_~   -   |  _      ~-____-~ .~  \~    |
(P) Change account password     /`.  __~~   ~   `_          __-~   \~    \~
(D) Documentation menu          \_ ~~   .  |  .   ~-____--~~   \ \_~   _/~ 
(S) Stats of your character     /\___--~       ~--_      /   ____~ _/~~     
(E) Enter Zalanthas             \         /        ~~~___  /     _-\\~\     
(X) Exit Armageddon             /\       /                   _-\~\\~\\~\   
(?) Read menu options          / | \   \ | /    /         _-~ )\\~\\~\\~~\ 
(P) Vote in Poll                            { /\ \             /      _~ \  ~`~~\\~~\\~~\
Read the documentation        { |\     __ _           _-\   \  \\~~\\~~\\~~\
menu before creating your     | ||~_ /`    ~\  /    _/~  )   | |\\~~\\~~\\~~
character, please.            | ||  \|"""""""|_ __-~     ;   | |~\\~~\\~~\\~
                              \ \\  ({"""""""}\\        _~  /  /~~\\~~\\~~\\
Armageddon is OPEN.
You have an unanswered poll
Choose thy fate: P

This is a poll
Text comes here asking a question.
How can we change X class?

(B) Nerf (basic example)
(O) Nerf (basic example)
(P) Remove class
(D) Other (type in response)

---------------------------------------------------------

With the above poll option EVERY player has
a right to the voice, and the staff is not getting bullied / pushed into things by what is possibly
a vocal minority.

I really do think staff should retake control of their IP and their game.
The ooc impact of the nastiness and demands of some players really feels
like it's getting out of control.

 Yes, some people will feel slighted, some people offended.

At the end of the day, we are players. Staff - experienced and familiar with the game - run it.
It is not our game, we are guests in their game and people seem to be forgetting that. We do
not play for the OOC. We should play, for the IC.

Added

Policy

As with any game, it should never be the place of players to dictate policy. Staff decide policy.

[CirclelessBard]

I am conflicted on whether I want to come back. I'll provide some feedback because I see some good feedback here and would like to chime in.

The premise of the "Recent Events" staff announcement, that Armageddon staff can only do anything about what happens within the community, and things that happen outside of that domain are beyond staff's control, is obviously true. But that doesn't mean staff can't react to things that happen outside of the domain of the community when such a reaction would obviously protect the community and improve its health and trust level. When players or staff misbehave outside of the community, it's a very good sign that they are conducting similar behavior within the community as well, or at the very least, have the potential to do so.

In order to follow this discussion's rules against singling out, the example I would like to use here is the case of Amy Cooper, who called 911 on a Black bird watcher in New York's Central Park for no reason (or rather, her own racist reasons), then proceeded to get fired from her job at an investment firm, Franklin Templeton. Obviously, Franklin Templeton does not control what happens in Central Park. It does not, as far as I know, hold a controlling interest in it or set the rules about the things people can do there. What it does control is its own reputation, what kinds of people it chooses to associate with, and what sort of image it wants to show to other people (probably its investors). It chose to fire Amy Cooper, an employee, to tell its investors that the company does not hold racist beliefs.

In a similar way, Armageddon's staff can - and should - choose to completely disassociate from and cut contact with its "employees" when they present a poor image of who is staffing the game, in order to show their "investors" that it is worth the time, effort, and emotional energy playing the game. Otherwise, there is effectively no way to know if or when staff approve or disapprove.

In general, the staff should be kind to players, the players should be kind to staff, the players should be kind to each other, and the staff should be kind to each other. A "Mr. Rogers rule" would greatly benefit everyone. It would increase player retention and return rates. If the distinction between staff and players is to remain, then staff need to use their authority lightly. Bashing players on the GDB or the Discord, tone policing, etc. should just not even be a consideration that ever comes to staff's mind. Similarly, players should not be allowed to create a toxic environment, making fun of former players or staff, passive-aggressively commenting on people's roleplaying skills, etc.

If we can't have a "Mr. Rogers rule" then we should at least have a "No Asshole Rule", based on the book by Robert Sutton. It's worth reading, or at least reading about. It reflects poorly on the community when we can join and see multiple players and staff backbiting against the same former staff member or banned player. Using these people as scapegoats is not going to move the community forward. The Discord should not be full of watercooler gossip, nor should the staff side of things feel like a toxic workplace.

And if staff are getting so angry that they cannot be kind, they should walk away either temporarily or permanently, as many staff before them have. And since many staff before them have done this...

...It's worth considering why staffing this game is so stressful. Because... it clearly is. And staff's mental health matters just as much as that of the players. I don't really have an answer to this. But hopefully staff can reflect and find their own here.

On a separate note, consider greater participation in the wider MUD community. I recommended this in a thread several months ago, but once Armageddon's house has been thoroughly cleaned, it would be a good time to open this conversation to people that are just no longer here. To show them how the game has changed.

Also, if staff engage in misconduct, it's worth considering a general amnesty for the vast majority of disciplined players, especially those disciplined during the time other inappropriate actions occurred. This isn't just a suggestion for right now, but for the future as well. Staff misconduct raises the possibility that bans were conducted on faulty premises as well as other disciplinary actions like karma losses. When staff leave the team, either of their own volition or otherwise, there should be a mechanism in place where staff review their past decisions and reverse them if they are poorly-documented or don't seem justified under the new circumstances.

Finally: the main reason why I don't feel safe playing Armageddon at this time is because ultimately, it's not really clear what staff have done or intend to do to prevent future instances of abuse. The language used in the announcement says action was taken, but we don't know what happened. We don't know if staff completely remove abusive people from the game or if they're simply knocked down a peg or two. I have recommended it in the past, but I strongly urge staff to be more consistently public with the moderation and punitive actions they choose to take. I think it would help as well if staff complaints and their resolutions were publicized somehow, so that players understood that something bad happened and accountability was taken. As much as I can appreciate a commitment to privacy, there is eventually a point where that commitment does more harm than good.

Edit on 3/2/23: To correct a typo.