Tavern Idlers

[Impska]

I like comments on behavior because some times they are commenting on my behavior.

Right on, Rindan. People are taking this threat way too personally.

I spent a long time as "The Eternal Twink Newb" because the GDB didn't exist when I first started playing (or my version of the internet didn't really handle it - I'm not sure which). I owe discussions on player behaviour a lot for how I play now.

Thanks to people like you, I'm not friendly with magickers; I'm racist; I treat nobles right; I don't twink out the steal skill; I now know it's not acceptable to steal from people who are emoting holding the item I'm stealing, or otherwise paying attention to it; I don't apply for special roles unless I'm willing to contribute to the game; and all the countless other things that are considered "good".

So remember, every time you're tempted to get uppity because someone is commenting on behaviour, maybe that thread is actually helping someone. And every time you're tempted to post "This threat is revisited month after month, let's give it a rest", remember that month after month new players join the game who may find that thread useful, and old players who never listened before might finally get what the big deal is.

[Stroker]

and all the countless other things that are considered "good".

There are a variety of definitions for good and bad. Therefore, following the assumption of a group of people is doubtful. I prefer to decipher my own meaning and adhere to it accordingly.

Rightfully, I stand against such blatant inconsideration. It does not offend me, as I am not one of the types that are described in this thread. However, I am still opposed to such behavior. Deciding who stays and who leaves is only up to the player, and maybe the Staff. Truly, if the player decides to stay, no one would be able to stop him/her. Such threads as this only manage to evoke negative comments from others. A good example is Armageddonsecrets - and his/her yahoo group. Obviously, s/he felt offended by threads just as like this one.

Dirr the Soviet

[John]

This player is roleplaying poorly.

Poor roleplay is defined as doing stuff that is unrealistic. Sitting in a tavern for more then 1 IC day is unrealistic. Therefore he is roleplaying poorly. It's the same reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end.

Sometimes it becomes necessary to stay in a tavern for more then a day, because conversations that should only take 2 hours, do only take 2 hours (OOC hours that is). People make excuses for NPCs and link dead people (they can't help it). However there is no excuse for going afk for IC days on end in a tavern. If this is going to happen to you, you shouldn't be somewhere as easily as abuseable as a tavern.

After all, you might be spying on lord hobknob and watching who comes and goes from his table. Your not there so you just read the log. That is making it impossible to tell that is what your doing by using OOC means. It's the same reason it's frowned upon to make yourself look like a n00b. It's an OOC device that has IC consequences.

What if I wanted to play a character that didn't want to interact with any of yours, but still liked sitting in taverns for whatever the hell reason?

There's a difference between not interacting with the character and not interacting with the player.

[Carnage]

This player is roleplaying poorly.

Poor roleplay is defined as doing stuff that is unrealistic. Sitting in a tavern for more then 1 IC day is unrealistic. Therefore he is roleplaying poorly. It's the same reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end.

Hey John, who died and made you King of Roleplay? Since when do you even know what this character is like and what they do? Should we have our PCs get up and stop what they're doing between x-y amount of time and go do something else or be labelled as "roleplaying poorly"? I guess we're all playing poorly when we stay logged in for a few hours and don't use the 'sleep' command. You know, since it's unrealistic for a character to stay up for a few days at a time without sleeping.

The reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end is because you're twinking out with no thought towards roleplaying. You're just powerlevelling up your skills just to power them. It's kind of the exact opposite of sitting in a tavern and doing absolutely nothing.

People make excuses for NPCs and link dead people (they can't help it). However there is no excuse for going afk for IC days on end in a tavern. If this is going to happen to you, you shouldn't be somewhere as easily as abuseable as a tavern.

What the hell are you talking about? He's "abusing" a tavern? How do you go about doing that?

After all, you might be spying on lord hobknob and watching who comes and goes from his table. Your not there so you just read the log. That is making it impossible to tell that is what your doing by using OOC means. It's the same reason it's frowned upon to make yourself look like a n00b. It's an OOC device that has IC consequences.

Then technically isn't not emoting that you're staring at his table or constantly glancing towards it godawful play too, since it's making it impossible to "tell that is what your(sic) doing by using OOC means"? Stealing without emoting is just as bad too because I can't tell what you're doing by using OOC means. Listening without constantly emoting that you're doing that is horrible too.  :roll:

This thread's had its run and needs to be locked before we get more of this ridiculous elitist crap.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, I stopped posting.  You people have no self-control.  *snicker*

Buh-bye, then.

[Angela Christine]

Idea:  Have the mud auto-quit people who are idle for an hour, whether they are in a quit room or not.  This would help in a variety of situations.

-Some guy is idling for long periods of time, driving parts of the player base into an enraged frenzy with his inactivity.

-Your power or ISP goes down, leaving standing inertly someplace, and this usually seems to happen to me when I'm somewhere that it is not safe to stand around link-dead and vulnerable.  An hour gives anyone that was after you a fair chance to get you, without leaving you in the desert to die of hunger.  (Ginka doesn't always detect that you are link dead, sometimes it can't tell the difference between link dead and idle.)

-You get distracted.  You get up for "just a minute" to walk the dog or make a snack, or you close the MUD window to check your email, but then one thing leads to another and instead of being gone a couple minutes you are gone for hours.  A friend or relative calls and needs to talk.  An asteroid hits Singapore, and you are too busy watching CNN to remember to quit out of the game.  You stay up too late and fall asleep at the keyboard.  Et cetra.  In all these cases you are not linkdead, so your character will continue to get hungry and thirsty until they die, the MUD crashes or you return to the game.  

In these situations it would be really helpful if Ginka just booted your ass off the MUD after an hour.

AC

[X-D]

Yeah, What carnage said (cringe).

Besides, IRL I've several times stayed in the same bar for 14-37 hours, and only twice was it someplace you could gamble.

IG, I've watched chars sit in a tavern for a few days, hell, I've done it, And they and I sit, don't do much, eat a bit, drink a bit, throw out an emote now and again, Personaly I don't see why anybody would be bothered by it, least it's better then the npc's stationed in the taverns, that poor soldier in sanc has been standing there not eating, drinking or anything, 9 hours a day 11 days a week for at least 26 ic years now...Well, she talked a week or so ago.


Just think of the long time tavern idlers as npc's with really cool scripts:)

[Callisto]

This thread's had its run and needs to be locked before we get more of this ridiculous elitist crap.

He's so dreamy!  :oops:

[spawnloser]

I'm with the Airconditioned Coupe on this one.  I'm also with John.  It IS unrealistic to be in a bar that long.  I say boot the idlers.

[John]

The reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end is because you're twinking out with no thought towards roleplaying.

So "roleplay" and "realism" only extends to coded skills?

[God]

[/quote]So "roleplay" and "realism" only extends to coded skills?

Unless you can prove to me that every day you play, when it hits night, you sleep, then you can't talk. And even if you do do that, then I'm just gonna think you're stupid(I already think you're far too impressionable). People play this game to have fun - it's not real life, it's not completely realistic, and to pretend that it is completely realistic is foolish. Why don't you go pick on one of those stationary NPCs about not moving?

[John]

Unless you can prove to me that every day you play, when it hits night, you sleep, then you can't talk.

Everyone agrees that that's acceptable. Obviously by this thread  not everyone agrees that idling in a tavern for hours on end is acceptable.

Also, you might want to cut down on the personal attacks.

[spawnloser]

Certain elements of realism are left out for playability issues.  Some should be left in, however.  Sitting in one place emoting a shuffle every couple of hours...then nothing for ten hours straight?  That is unrealistic to a huge level.  The reason that some people are probably upset about this is that it is a PC...NPCs are one thing, as they can be animated by an immortal, if interaction is called for, but a PC can not and thus can not react to something that s/he should.  That is unrealistic.

[Wintermute]

Certain elements of realism are left out for playability issues.  Some should be left in, however.  Sitting in one place emoting a shuffle every couple of hours...then nothing for ten hours straight?  That is unrealistic to a huge level.  The reason that some people are probably upset about this is that it is a PC...NPCs are one thing, as they can be animated by an immortal, if interaction is called for, but a PC can not and thus can not react to something that s/he should.  That is unrealistic.

Why is this unrealistic?  Seriously, if you're not expected to emote your character blinking every few seconds, why is there a line drawn in the sand for ten IC hours?  If you're going to be a proponent of playability, why aren't you considering that playability is a different thing for different people?

Besides, the character is doing something.  He/she is sitting at a table in a tavern.   :twisted:

[John]

For those saying it's perfectly fine to do the exact same thing for 4 OOC hours. Do you think it's perfectly fine to mud-sex for 4 OOC hours? If not, why not?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I look at it like this: It is unimportant how long you do something, if it takes that long to do it. Mudsexxing might take 4 OOC hours if there is a couple afks, slow emoting, and descriptive activities. So, it is relative to the events at hand. It's certianly not that bad.

On top of that....geez, it's just sitting at a tavern! Leave the bastard alone!

66 posts, including mine, on this weak-ass topic! Damn! Let's discuss how to better the world, yeah? God help me, let it go.

[Angela Christine]

For those saying it's perfectly fine to do the exact same thing for 4 OOC hours. Do you think it's perfectly fine to mud-sex for 4 OOC hours? If not, why not?

That depends, does Sting have a PC here?  That tantric sex stuff is supposed to go on for days.

Sure, what the idler is doing isn't a -good- thing.  No one is saying, "wow, what a great idea, we should all sit around idle in the taverns instead of logging off!"  But it doesn't seem like an awful, dispicable thing either.  As I understand it he has moved away from the big table, so what he is doing is basically harmless.

AC

[Anonymous]

For those saying it's perfectly fine to do the exact same thing for 4 OOC hours. Do you think it's perfectly fine to mud-sex for 4 OOC hours? If not, why not?

Apples and oranges.

Inside a tavern there is shade, cover from the sands, food and water to be bought and sleeping accomodations.  Why leave?  I once spent RL days inside a van traveling.  Was I abusing the van in RL?

Considering all of the above I don't think it would be a stretch to imagine someone spending IC weeks inside of a tavern.

[spawnloser]

Wintermute...I said my piece.  I'll sum it up again so that you don't miss the vital points.  It's unrealistic because he doesn't move and can't because the person is AFK for hours on end.  Also, the reason to allow certain things comes down to playability.  That's it.

[Anonymous]

Wintermute...I said my piece.  I'll sum it up again so that you don't miss the vital points.  It's unrealistic because he doesn't move and can't because the person is AFK for hours on end.  Also, the reason to allow certain things comes down to playability.  That's it.

Which makes him different from the NPCs in the bar how?

Let the guy have his fun, he's not hurting anyone.

[John]

Mudsexxing might take 4 OOC hours if there is a couple afks, slow emoting, and descriptive activities. So, it is relative to the events at hand.

The staff disagree and have said before that taking several IC days to mud-sex is frowned upon.

Which makes him different from the NPCs in the bar how?

[removes sarcastic response] How about I not emote anywhere except for a few alias's? That's what NPCs do. How about I ignore everyone that talks to me unless they say only "topics, names, rumors" to me. How about I walk around from room to room, not doing anything and ignoring every militia person that tries to talk to me, after all, that's what NPCs do. Sorry if that sounds narky I'm just getting sick of that argument.  Oh and I have nothing against this one particular person the thread was made about. I haven't even seen him, I'm just talking about the act of idling in taverns for OOC hours on end.

Let the guy have his fun, he's not hurting anyone.

I'm glad the docs don't limit enforcing roleplay to situations where "someone is hurt" because I wouldn't have even taken one look at the game.

[Carnage]

The staff disagree and have said before that taking several IC days to mud-sex is frowned upon.

Where?

[Anonymous]

How about I not emote anywhere except for a few alias's? That's what NPCs do. How about I ignore everyone that talks to me unless they say only "topics, names, rumors" to me. How about I walk around from room to room, not doing anything and ignoring every militia person that tries to talk to me, after all, that's what NPCs do. Sorry if that sounds narky I'm just getting sick of that argument.

You aren't the only one.  My point was that a PC stuck in NPC mode for hours on end is negatively affecting the game as much as an NPC.  They confuse newbies as much as an NPC.

This is one of those times where someone else's conduct truly does not affect your play and therefore should be let be.

[Anonymous]

So this PC and me are somewhere, and something really horrible happens. We both witness it, it's traumatic. A big deal.

Me and him talk about it for a little bit, eventually things calm down enough that we can get back to the business of living, but the issue isn't resolved yet and needs to be.

So the next RL day I see him at a tavern sitting at a table and ask if he's heard any news. He doesn't respond. I figure okay, well maybe he's link-dead or just afk for a smoke. 20 minutes later I try again. No response. Okay I guess that means he's link dead, no biggie, I'll try later.

Two hours (real time, not game time) later I try again. No response. The next day I try again. No response. I mean, this is a BIG DEAL that we both witnessed, something that the city would take major issue with, and him and I and one other PC are the only witnesses to it, so he -really- needs to talk to the Law enforcement people about it. It's a simple question I want to ask - has he spoken with the Law enforcement people yet?

After three real-life days of seeing him sitting there, there's still no response. None at all. And it's my character's word at stake, because it's one of those Big Deals that most people wouldn't believe unless more than one person saw it.

Eventually the Big Deal is resolved without the AFK guy, but not until after my character's credibility is put to question.

This -does- hurt me, it hurts my character's credibility (which is something she takes seriously), it hurts her psyche (because she needs confirmation that no, she wasn't just stark raving bonkers when she witnessed this thing, it really did happen).

Now fast forward a few weeks, and this guy is still there. He's clanned. Employed by someone that people would want to get in touch with, but who is hardly ever around. A noble comes by asking the guy where his boss is. No response. Okay maybe he's just link dead or AFK for a smoke. 20 minutes later, a repeat of the question. No response. A few days later and he's still sitting there. No response. In the meantime, the noble's player has to decide - do I kill this guy for daring to not respond to me? Or do I accept that his player isn't watching and cut him some slack?

The noble shouldn't -have- to decide. The guy shouldn't be putting people into the position of having to roleplay around his character's existence. It wastes everyone else's time, on the initial encounter, because at first you don't know if this person is just link-dead or afk for a smoke and should be given time to reboot or finish his cigarette before resuming the RP. Only after waiting - and waiting - and waiting - can you come to the conclusion that his player isn't anywhere near his computer and hasn't been paying attention for the past few real-life hours.

With an NPC, you can wish up and ask an IMM to animate it. With a PC you can't. The option doesn't exist. Maybe an IMM isn't around to animate an NPC, or maybe an IMM doesn't think it's necessary, but at least it's possible. Not so with a PC who isn't being PLAYED by anyone for hours and hours and hours of real time.

That's my issue with it anyway.

[Marauder Moe]

I agree with "Guest"'s post.  I believe that it's only alright to be a chronic tavern idler if you are certain that noone will ever need to speak with you or you have good reason to ignore everyone and everything around you.