Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Armaddict]

I think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.

It shifted from hearing from people who weren't playing to a general gripe thread.

[TragicMagick]

I honestly think all of the problems the game currently has would go away if we added 20-40 consistent new players to the game.
Bored? Not enough happening? Go find another person to mess with.
Clan empty? Not anymore.
Don't like staff plots? Do something with other people.
Game lost its luster? Nowhere new to explore? Show the new blood these places. Ask them those same questions and expand their wonder.

It seems like a lot of interest is being put towards retaining older players or bringing people back. I believe a lot of the people who left or are already jaded aren't going to be easily won back, but newer players won't have any of those issues.

It would be so easy to grassroots some projects and bring 100+ new bodies to this community. Even at its worst where 10 of them are hawking porn sites in the gaj, that's an easy fix and if even 5 players stay then that's a boon to the community. It would be so easy now too with D&D becoming mainstream.

I don't believe you're going to win people back over to the game that have either already filled that niche or have too many personal reasons not to come back- no matter what new things get added. Most of the reasons I see people dropping the game have to do with relationships with other players or staff, not code changes. That said, there is a chance to bring them back if there is more to do than hang out with the same 20 people you already dislike or the staffer you swear hates you. New people might actually bring back old players. I doubt many people would pass up logging on at least once if they heard we were averaging 60 players at peak.

[Inks]

Yeah that stuff about karma regen is ridonk. Can't live a month and a half as a karma player? Then too bad roll mundane you snowflake. High karma only playing high karma roles one after another for years should lose karma I reckon.

Needless aggression aside, game seems pretty healthy to me. I took a short break when I wanted to take a short break. I'm back because I want to be back.

[Malken]

Yeah that stuff about karma regen is ridonk. Can't live a month and a half as a karma player? Then too bad roll mundane you snowflake. High karma only playing high karma roles one after another for years should lose karma I reckon.

Needless aggression aside, game seems pretty healthy to me. I took a short break when I wanted to take a short break. I'm back because I want to be back.

You're missing the entire point of this thread...

1) Some people are not rolling mundanes and would rather wait a month and a half instead of playing roles they don't want to play. It's not a problem for them, which is why they're not playing and OP wants to know why.
2) Forcing players to play roles they don't want to play so they don't lose karma is not going to make them want to come back ... Why would I care if I lose a karma since I'm barely playing these days anyway? (not me, but in general). You're just going to piss of players even more that way.

[Oleupata]

It would be so easy to grassroots some projects and bring 100+ new bodies to this community. Even at its worst where 10 of them are hawking porn sites in the gaj, that's an easy fix and if even 5 players stay then that's a boon to the community. It would be so easy now too with D&D becoming mainstream.

If you  have a concrete proposal along these lines please do put in a request for the request tool. When we asked for help forming an advertising committee, we didn't get much response. However, it's still definitely something we're interested in.

[TragicMagick]

It would be so easy to grassroots some projects and bring 100+ new bodies to this community. Even at its worst where 10 of them are hawking porn sites in the gaj, that's an easy fix and if even 5 players stay then that's a boon to the community. It would be so easy now too with D&D becoming mainstream.

If you  have a concrete proposal along these lines please do put in a request for the request tool. When we asked for help forming an advertising committee, we didn't get much response. However, it's still definitely something we're interested in.

Oh! Alright! I didn't see that ask, I think.

[Halcyon]

I think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.

Is it to look for ways to pull back players who leave the game temporarily while waiting for something to happen before rejoining the game? Because if so, the karma timer adjustments will solve that problem.
Or is it to look for ways to pull back players who have left the game indefinitely, as well as pull in new players, because the playerbase has shrunk significantly over the past several years? Because a karma timer adjustment isn't going to fix that problem.

That is not to say that you shouldn't adjust the karma timer. I just think that this thread's main focus on it over the past couple of pages doesn't imply that we aren't also trying to solve problem #2.

I brought it up due to perceived player numbers when people type who.

I assume there is some difference between the percent of people on the GDB in favor of no karma timers and the actual population, plus or minus.  Still, if the population looks 5 higher, I think more people will stay logged in looking for fun.  Its a snowball effect both ways up or down, so we should remove reasons why engaged players arent logging in.

My perception from various games is that there are social alphas, and 2-5 people play around them only when they are playing.   8 people voted against the karma timer, so there are probably 30 players who dont log in when their ringleaders arent playing.

I think the karma timers solves some problems.   I just dont think the side effect of the solution is a good idea at the moment.

[titansfan]

I think just keep the timer on magick classes and don't have it on races or esgs. I believe that would solve what is being talked about.

[CirclelessBard]

Speaking for myself, karma timer changes wouldn't draw me back into Armageddon. Partly because I don't remember my old account password, and don't have access to my old Armageddon email anymore, so I have to make a new account if I want to play again, which is no big deal. The other part is I enjoy zero-karma roles more, anyway... the karma timer was never an issue for me and I imagine there are other people in my position as well.

If removing the karma timer for subguilds and races draws a few people back into the game more often... awesome. I will be happy for those players as long as they're having fun again.

Speaking for the three former Armageddon players I know (two I met while playing Arm, one I met after my most recent departure), I don't think a karma timer addresses their issues either. In fact, I spoke with them about this thread and asked them to post here, but they would rather not, and instead told me I could post their concerns here if I wanted. I do want to, so I'm going to paraphrase the conversations a bit.

#1 issue is that, frankly, Armageddon looks unwelcoming when viewed from the outside. The biggest place to talk about MUDs right now is Reddit, and Armageddon's representatives there concern them when it comes to how they compose themselves and communicate with others. There tends to be victim-blaming directed at people who have a bad newbie experience or are writing a negative review. Instead of taking their issues seriously, the critique is dismissed as fake. Staff obviously can't control how players behave outside of Armageddon's spaces and can't be expected to - but the fact that a few players have established that they will hound you for personal details if you post critique of Armageddon has created a chilling effect among some of its former players. I genuinely don't know what staff can do about this, but it is still a problem nonetheless. Maybe what Armageddon needs are kinder, staff-appointed "ambassadors" to drown out the voices of the meaner ones.

#2 issue is definitely related to the lack of action. The downtime between events and the plotlines cut abruptly short by random deaths are the big ones. The latter ties back into permadeath and literally cannot be fixed without changing the entire game structure, but the former feels like something staff can correct for by simply saying "yes, and" and "yes, but" more often, and less "no". Provide a path for facilitation, let the player improvise along the way, instead of putting up impassable barriers.

#3 is that achievements and player-led plotlines take way too long to resolve. All of my little group, myself included, appreciate the intention of the player-created clan system. But the fact that it takes in-game years to build even the simplest of enterprises is deeply frustrating, and it doesn't help that some of the better examples of player-created clans have either had a lot of staff support, or actual staff playing avatars within these clans. It presents the appearance that achievements are out of reach for most players. It would be good to see progress in building in roughly the time it takes to actually write these spaces. Like in other MU*s, give players build access to the items and rooms they choose to create, so that particular bottleneck is opened wide and staff can focus on review/approval.

Hopefully that helps. My group may sound too jaded to ever return, but they do actually care about the well-being of the game and miss it, and I do think a stronger game would attract all of us back.

[WarriorPoet]

I think I'm a bit confused as to what the goal of this thread actually is.

It shifted from hearing from people who weren't playing to a general gripe thread.

This is a major reason why I haven't logged in in months. I love you guys but damn. The generic roundabout of gdb complaints chafes. The game itself feels like this most of the time. And that sucks, because when the game hits that sweet note, it is worth the boring moments.

Give me a throwaway gith pc for a month. I will write crappy docs and boom. Dance contests, wholesale slaughter on the trade route, and someone can hunt my silly ass down before I molest all of your kanks, like in the good ole days. Conflict.

I have nothing constructive to contribute.

[Barsook]

Honestly, I really think things haven't really changed over the last 10-15 years that I been playing.  I remember making a very negative comment about how outdated the site is and even with the new website, I almost about to make that comment again (if I remember what I said). That's not the point though. The point is the game is 30 years old and the age is the biggest factor, both  the game and the playerbase.

I'm not sure if trying to return to how the game was ran back in 2009's and before those times would help anything.

And hopefully this post wasn't another "I'm going to get a -1" reply to this post.

ETA: I feel as the vocal minority just makes things go in circles. I'm reading an old thread and this post came to my mind: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203 and i went where are those changes? They never really happened, didn't they?

[Krath]

Brokkr, I think you should do two things with karma.

1. Move mundane extended sub guilds to zero karma
2. Keep the Karma timer as is, however if I play a elkros havoc and die day 2, ONLY that option is gone for the duration of the timer.

[Brokkr]

1. Move mundane extended sub guilds to zero karma

Given the thread in the summer, not having seen something with that is due to RL kicking my ass for a while now more than anything else.

2. Keep the Karma timer as is, however if I play a elkros havoc and die day 2, ONLY that option is gone for the duration of the timer.

Getting karma regen working somewhat right took us a long while and is pretty finicky, so I doubt we want to introduce more complexity.

[Quirky]

Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.

[Krath]

1. Move mundane extended sub guilds to zero karma

Given the thread in the summer, not having seen something with that is due to RL kicking my ass for a while now more than anything else.

2. Keep the Karma timer as is, however if I play a elkros havoc and die day 2, ONLY that option is gone for the duration of the timer.

Getting karma regen working somewhat right took us a long while and is pretty finicky, so I doubt we want to introduce more complexity.

Got it. RL always comes first. Thanks for the transparency to my questions.

[dwarven fists of doom]

Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.

Thank you, this is essentially what I tried to say and what people have tried to express for literal decades. So let's just make it a meme already.

[dwarven fists of doom]

And please don't delete my posts, or ban my GDB account, or whatever. Just because I jest with a meme. Jest is one way of making commentary with respect because humor is a strategy for making hard truth hurt less.

I'll GTFO this thread, but per my original post, respect goes both ways, and easy-going-ness is an element of respect. Good luck, may no other good players get lost or hurt. And if you feel you are being neglected in the face of favoritism maybe hold on because it's often players outside the chosen clique who are actually playing the most loved and appreciated (by players at least) characters.

[Greve]

As for the karma? Take away the timer on at very least the first point. I believe the cool down should just be removed at this point and just let people play.. Perhaps a rule of no magickers twice in a row.

A better solution would be to do away entirely with karma requirements for mundane subclasses. I'm convinced that this is the bulk of the problem. Most players, I'm certain, can stomach playing a mundane character in-between their magickers and whatnot. What many won't be compelled to do is play a bottom-tier character of pointlessly limited means just because they're waiting for karma regeneration. No mundane subclasses should be gated behind karma. It doesn't make any sense. They're not harder to play, they're not so powerful that only veterans can be trusted to handle them, and they're not saddled with some burden of in-game rarity. Just make the mundane subclasses zero karma and reserve the restricted options for specialty races, magickers, and sorc/psi options. You know, like it used to be. I think that worked just fine.

When you've been around the block for long enough to have a point of karma, it's not as if any possible purpose is served by making you wait for the privilege to play a mundane subclass. Magickers? Eh, sure, why not. Make it something you can only do so often, just to preserve the novelty of it. But the moment this game made it so that mundane power was gated behind karma was the moment it erred from the original purpose of karma. It was not originally intended to be a reward for being sufficiently polite to staff, or for spending long enough playing a sergeant. It was meant to illustrate that you could be trusted to play characters that were so special or powerful that they needed to be gated behind a system of selection. That failed when it just became a measure of raw character worth. Nowadays, a 0-karma character is crap. The game was better when this was not the case.

Everyone can play a mundane. I'm convinced that there's no player in this community who refuses to play a character that isn't able to cast spells or use advanced psionic powers. However, there are probably some who rightfully won't play characters that are objectively inferior to other mundane characters on the sole basis of the creator's place in the karma regeneration schedule. Get rid of karma for rogue, wastelander, majordomo, etc. Restore that currency to what it once was: a way of limiting unusual characters to those who are equipped to play unusual characters. As it stands, it's more reminiscent of a premium mode privilege in a pay-to-win mobile game. This change was a failed project.

It doesn't work. It encourages people to stop playing when they aren't able to pick a mundane subclass which should not be restricted for any sensible reason. Nobody wants to play a second-rate mundane character just because some arbitrary rule says it's their turn. It's nonsense. There should not be a hierarchy amongst human warriors where those created by players with karma are superior to those that weren't. It goes against the most fundamental tenets of a roleplaying game, and it makes people stop playing.

[Patuk]

Staff have already deliberated that mundane subclasses should be 0 karma, so yeah. That's well on its way.

[Barsook]

Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.

Agreed, while there is a sense of ownership, it feels as if it's only only benefiting the player who is working their butts off. Sure, you do have some players, such as Mansa, who were able to get some changes in the game but how often does really happen.  And without favoritism taking place, as what dwarven fists of doom points out, which I do think still happen.

[Tuannon]

Not to spend too long derailing, there have been some 'newbles' about who I can't say everyone has supported. But I sure have with both IC assistance in a properly measured fashion and OOC advice.

They are in the minority but there are a few around or at least were, one has quit the game per what you were talking about for sure though.

[CirclelessBard]

Aside from the karma system restructure, what are staff's thoughts on the other feedback in this thread? What is being discussed staff-side about this feedback, and what ideas do staff have for addressing the other issues that were raised here?

[HazelHomewrecker]

Because even if we work hard in game for 6 months, you don't give us respect or consideration. You just want your experienced players in roles. So, ya lost a good one.

Honestly, in my experience I can proudly say that this is the furthest thing from the truth. I started playing last november, got my feet wet with my first character, and then jumped head-first into my second who survived for almost four or five months. After that, I moved on to some other characters, until I finally found a role call I thought I could do well. So, I applied (with extremely minor/meager interaction with the staff before then) and somehow managed to squeak by for my first ever RC character. I was so excited, but.. well, that character fell flat. I moved on. Now, without revealing much, I'm on my second role call and I have seen without a shadow of a doubt that it's not staff favoritism in the slightest. They're giving plenty of chances for new players to toss their characters into sponsored roles--at least, that's the case lately. I can't make a statement on that for anything other than the time that I've been playing the game.

I feel plenty respected, and considered when it comes to staff-side, and even if it sounds like staff-sympathizing nonsense, I'm (mostly) ecstatic with the treatment I've received, both in and out of the game.

[Armaddict]

Unless it has changed, you can also special app for roles above your karma grade.  I didn't play any karma-based races until I special apped for them first, then they let me keep the karma (with the exception of sorcerer).

[Oleupata]

Aside from the karma system restructure, what are staff's thoughts on the other feedback in this thread? What is being discussed staff-side about this feedback, and what ideas do staff have for addressing the other issues that were raised here?

Speaking for myself and what I've brought up, and making no claims to any definite changes or initiatives (but here's hoping!), I've restarted the discussion and (thanks in part to players) proposed a couple concrete suggestions on the advertising and new-player-retention front.