Desert Elf Endurance Changes - Discussion

[LindseyBalboa]

Why not make it more realistic for people riding mounts? Mounts should be able to trample you to death and kill you when they throw you. Horses do that, and the mounts on Arm a lot bigger. I assume that isn't the case because that's not that fun for a game to have. That is the territory this is going down.

This isn't a zero-sum issue.  We're not looking to change one group "to keep it even" because another group got changed.  We identified what we believed to be something "out of whack", and have corrected it (rather, will be, the change isn't live).   That doesn't mean some other race/group has to have an update to balance out the equation.

Now, if an idea is good, we'll consider implementing it on its own merits.

bolding in my original quote done by me now. Wasn't suggesting the change, but using it as a tongue-in-cheek example of the change's affect to d-elves. I've spoken with Brokkr and my worry about pve/wilderness is assuaged until I go actually test out some new d-elves.

I also know staff will listen to feedback if there are serious issues but it will suck if that's the case for all the people that lost the 1 karma role they had (1 karma being 1 real life month of their real lives), so I definitely wanted to state my concerns re: survivability in pve/wilderness prior.

[Inks]

I'm fine with it. They will still have their movement bonuses anyway.

[Intuition]

Desert elves have always had much higher hp than they should according to the docs - so good job fixing it.

[eska]

1.  City elves and desert elves are the same race

This might have been the initial thought. But don't you forget the survival of the fittest and evolution in generations. Desert elves have been living in the desert for many generations. The weak dies and stronger ones keep reproducing. It is very understandable that city elves and desert elves could be different from another. RL example can be seen on humans as well. Humans living in different regions of the world evolved physically differently.

[Tipsie]

Guess we'll just have to see the change and see how bad it affects d-elves..

[Doublepalli]

Then make stealth actually cost less than 4 mv per room. Right now. It is EXPENSIVE to stealth in the desert. It's a /chore/. So it doesn't happen. I mean, who can keep up with riders, who also can stop and rest at any given moment? Not the one losing alot of wind just to walk room by room. Who will have to rest before the riders and break stealth. As a player of elves who consistently have less than 90 hp, both delf and cell, I don't think we need to reduce their HP even further. They are durable wasteland survivors. If we do this change, how will it effect stamina and HP regen?

[Wday]

Most elves in the last few years played haven't been able to wear clothes or carry a quiver of arrows with how weak they are.  I fear this will make them completely pitiful, maybe neat if Stam was really boosted so can run forever or added strength so can use common items.

[Halaster]

As a player of elves who consistently have less than 90 hp, both delf and cell, I don't think we need to reduce their HP even further. They are durable wasteland survivors. If we do this change, how will it effect stamina and HP regen?

It's pretty uncommon to see a desert with below 100 hp currently, unless they're playing young.  The only ones I've seen sub 100 are because they chose to be really really young (seriously, y'all, young age just decimates your stats), dumpstat'd endurance, or just had a stroke of really bad luck.  The change is expected to be about 10-ish hps less on average.  Based on how many hps most desert elves have now, most of them will still remain above 100 after the change.

Based on how much stamina we plan to add vs how much will be lost from the endurance change, it will be a net gain in stamina.  On average new desert elves will be gaining more stamina than they are losing hps.

[Riev]

Most elves in the last few years played haven't been able to wear clothes or carry a quiver of arrows with how weak they are.  I fear this will make them completely pitiful, maybe neat if Stam was really boosted so can run forever or added strength so can use common items.

I'd say "most" is anecdotal at best, and you can certainly run around at MANAGEABLE weight if you want to. You just don't want to. Elf strength is a different topic, but weapon skills and offense can help overcome it.

less than 10% reduction in HP for a boost in natural stamina sounds like a good tradeoff.

I would be on board for 'sneak' not costing so much stam per room, though.

[Nao]

Elf strength is a different topic, but weapon skills and offense can help overcome it.

Elf str is relevant because it's so low that you can't wear a whole lot of armor unless you happen to roll really high.

This got worse with the armor revamp a few years ago. The Two Moons had just opened and came with a cool set of armor made by the tribe. Not even a full set, I think they didn't have a helmet or neckgear. But with the armor revamp and standardization, this armor meant to be specifically for elves became too heavy. I don't think any of the PCs in the tribe kept wearing the full set.

[Riev]

This topic is about endurance changes, not Elf Strength. I didn't say it wasn't important, but it isn't relevant to the topic.

[Shalooonsh]

Most elves in the last few years played haven't been able to wear clothes or carry a quiver of arrows with how weak they are.  I fear this will make them completely pitiful, maybe neat if Stam was really boosted so can run forever or added strength so can use common items.

Categorically false.  As someone who has watched most of the elves in the last few years they've been able to wear clothes, armor, and carry choice of weapon with a backup just fine... as long as they don't try to play like a dwarf.  If you're a d-elf, and you try to play like a c-dwarf, you're going to have a bad time.

[Armaddict]

Categorically false.  As someone who has watched most of the elves in the last few years they've been able to wear clothes, armor, and carry choice of weapon with a backup just fine... as long as they don't try to play like a dwarf.  If you're a d-elf, and you try to play like a c-dwarf, you're going to have a bad time.

Just wanted to kind of add to this; you really shouldn't pick an elf to wear decked out armors.  As someone who almost always plays elves, I don't go in looking for all the cool armors I can wear.  I have a few select pieces of leather that I like to try to find, or replacements for those, but most elves are usually looking for good quality utility-based gear rather than heavy armor.  I depend on planning and agility, which is why the encumbrance game plays such a large part.

If you go in with the belief that you should be able to carry everything all the time for every situation, you aren't playing according to the elven state.  I'm running <here> to <do this>, which means I need to bring <this> and <this>.  Do I need to bring a tent?  Do I need to bring a lot of water?  No?  I need to ditch those things to travel light.  This is like in RL when you are planning a backpacking trip; you are -planning- on your method of travel being on foot, and you decide which items are worth bringing, what's worth wearing, and how you can maximize preparation while minimizing the idea for a cart or frequent rests.  If you're making a -big trip-, that's the time where they consider pack animals.

Indeed, not being able to carry everything can result in some bad situations, but that is the elven mindset in the first place.  They have a superiority complex for a reason.  Every day they make decisions based on preparation and survival, and if they live long enough, they are -extremely confident- in their mental process.

[titansfan]

I think a hard lock at 100 hp should be a thing.  Lower than that usually just blows and makes a character incredibly difficult to play in a fun way if you had combat in your plans at all. Yes, I know.  After 10 days played you can be just as tough,  blah blah. It's not fun to get there terrified of everything and if other players aren't around to protect you as you get gud.

[Halaster]

I think a hard lock at 100 hp should be a thing.  Lower than that usually just blows and makes a character incredibly difficult to play in a fun way if you had combat in your plans at all. Yes, I know.  After 10 days played you can be just as tough,  blah blah. It's not fun to get there terrified of everything and if other players aren't around to protect you as you get gud.

Humans and city elves have been dealing with that basically forever.  I've played several human combat characters in the low 90's, and did just fine, and had a lot of fun.

[Lotion]

if you are so unsatisfied with your stat rolls that you want to create a new character then just go full yolo
if you die then you get to create a new character
if you survive then you now have a badass character

[Nao]

I think a hard lock at 100 hp should be a thing.  Lower than that usually just blows and makes a character incredibly difficult to play in a fun way if you had combat in your plans at all. Yes, I know.  After 10 days played you can be just as tough,  blah blah. It's not fun to get there terrified of everything and if other players aren't around to protect you as you get gud.

Humans and city elves have been dealing with that basically forever.  I've played several human combat characters in the low 90's, and did just fine, and had a lot of fun.

Humans and city elves live in a much safer environment and have the choice to avoid or limit contact with aggressive NPCs until they have skilled up a bit (or in the case of city elves, never have to go outside). Delves don't have that luxury, they don't get to wear as much armor as the average human, and get dropped in some very dangerous locations right after chargen. They already had a very high turnover rate from simply dying even before this change, and now they're even less likely to survive.

Coded human tribals may be the exception here, but they're a pretty small minority and still seem to hang around in settlements more than most delves.

[Halaster]

Delves don't have that luxury, they don't get to wear as much armor as the average human, and get dropped in some very dangerous locations right after chargen. They already had a very high turnover rate from simply dying even before this change, and now they're even less likely to survive.

Them's the breaks when you live in the wilderness vs civilization.  ArmageddonMUD is set in a "harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world", it's going to be tough outside of the cities, which is where desert elves live.

[Veselka]

Agreed.

[Nao]

Delves don't have that luxury, they don't get to wear as much armor as the average human, and get dropped in some very dangerous locations right after chargen. They already had a very high turnover rate from simply dying even before this change, and now they're even less likely to survive.

Them's the breaks when you live in the wilderness vs civilization.  ArmageddonMUD is set in a "harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world", it's going to be tough outside of the cities, which is where desert elves live.

It was already tougher in the wilderness.

You could use that argument to ramp up the danger level indefinitely (ridiculous example: let's make every mob a mek), even to the point where it is no longer okay or playable. It's a bad argument.

The wilderness has only been getting more and more dangerous recently. NPCs move around more,  so why the need to sharply ramp up difficulty even more, but only for delves? It's not like they've been dominating the game and outshining every other race.

I don't even die a lot, I'm on PC #24 and none of my recent deaths would have been prevented by having a few more hp. But it's frustrating as hell to see everyone in your clan drop left and right from falls or unlucky raptor encounters. It kills continuity and it kills plots. We need some longevity and consistency with PCs. Half of your clan dying every few weeks is not healthy. Most PCs not surviving past a couple of weeks is not healthy.

There seems to be a tendency where new PCs get ignored because chances are they won't be there in two weeks. It drives away new and returning players when nobody wants to interact with them. It's frustrating to players of existing PCs that do interact, but never see most of these PCs again.

[Riev]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm never wrong, come at me):

Desert elves require karma, or a 0-karma special application. The idea being... you've had a few characters in the game, and understand the world and at a base level, how dangerous it is.

If you're rolling an elf and running around the Wastelands totally unprepared, alone, and dying to meks and bahamets and big ass kryl... I think you weren't ready for the role. Or, at the least, are too excited and not taking the world seriously enough.

I know its an old trope, but I think of desert elves like native americans or at least middle eastern desert clans. Going out alone is a bad idea and most hunting is done in groups.

The endurance change isn't whats killing elves. Opening all the tribes and the influx of a bunch of players into them is killing them. People trying a clan, or a part of the world they've never been in, is killing them.

10-15 less HP is not killing you.

[Nao]

If you're rolling an elf and running around the Wastelands totally unprepared, alone, and dying to meks and bahamets and big ass kryl... I think you weren't ready for the role. Or, at the least, are too excited and not taking the world seriously enough.

With a new delf, it's not meks and bahamets and kryl (though you do get unlucky and end up in combat with those when you're not looking for it). For a new scout or stalker PC with 92 hp, things like gortoks, cilops, raptors, scrabs with a high stat roll, or a single spider are serious threats. Especially in the north you might run from one of those injured, and run into two more while you're fleeing. God forbid if you went with stalker. A stalker delf shouldn't be borderline unplayable, or forced to skill up somewhere far away from their camp because it's safer to spend your first few days played there. Stalker is the most thematic class for a delf IMO, but it's borderline suicidal at this point.

I know its an old trope, but I think of desert elves like native americans or at least middle eastern desert clans. Going out alone is a bad idea and most hunting is done in groups.

Not always an option with the current numbers, unless you enjoy sitting alone at camp for most of your playtime. And even then, you might eventually have to leave because hunger/thirst are a thing.

10-15 less HP is not killing you.

It's exacerbating a pre-existing problem and introduces other issues like lowered poison resistance for elves that live in scorpion, angkh, and cilops country.

[betweenford]

Some of their camps are 1-3 tiles too close to things that can in fact bash you right off the bat and kill you. Even if you know tbe game world, very few people expect to walk right outside camp and meet a dujat/anakore/braxat/spider/mekillot/bahamet/carru literally right outside of camp. Thats not even related to being cautious or being unprepared. Thats just unlucky animal wandering or animal spawns.

[Fawcett]

If you're rolling an elf and running around the Wastelands totally unprepared, alone, and dying to meks and bahamets and big ass kryl... I think you weren't ready for the role. Or, at the least, are too excited and not taking the world seriously enough.

I know its an old trope, but I think of desert elves like native americans or at least middle eastern desert clans. Going out alone is a bad idea and most hunting is done in groups.

Hard to get a group/pack when all your tribemates are dead in under a week because they stepped out of camp to forage a tuber.

Overall, I think this change is pretty harmful, and people really underestimate just how severe losing 10-20 max HP can be. The optimal build was an AI strength dwarf, and now this optimal build just gets better and better with recent changes.

It doesn't make the world harsher and grittier, it just makes one of the most unique parts of Arm very hard to pull off unless you go complete twink mode in order to get past the first few stages of dying to basically anything as a delf.

[Brokkr]

  If you are choosing not to use sneak/hide to survive these situations, I do not know what to tell you.