Blood and Bloodied Weapons and Injuries

Of all things that get bloody and thusly blood-stained, you'd think a weapon would... especially a bladed weapon like a sword or axe that may break skin on occassion. And what I'd like to see is just more blood in general. People bleed virtually it seems, or are given the chance to just role-play the extent of their wounds, but I personally wouldn't mind a little code interference.

Here is what I had envisioned. I'm some evil... assassin!? in the 'Rinth, with my really sharp metal daggers that are sharpened to a sharp tip. I go off searching for things to stab and come across a scantily clad amorphous creature with lots of exposed skin to carve to my heart's content. So I stealthily approach the being... and attack!

Now with me wielding sharp things, and them lightly armored. One of my attacks... maybe something over a solid hit perhaps rolls a critical hit or something... and a scene like the following occurs:

You stab the amorphous human very hard on the chest.
Your metal dagger cuts deep into the amorphous human's chest, spraying blood.
An amorphous human crumples to the ground.

Now the hit wouldn't nescessarily kill the person like that, (only if they were really injured) but it would provide the echo, and 'coat' my dagger with blood, which if not readily removed would stain like armor does.

Also, the person deeply ripped open would 'bleed'. Which would slowly degenerate HP until either healed naturally or bandaged. Making bandages/medical attention more popular for those that fight often. One of the reasons I suggest this, is because despite how people play their wounds no one will ever bleed death. I'm seen people stand around in awful condition (after being bashed by several beings with varying ranges of sharp weapons) forever and never die. And because they don't "sleep" off their wounds, they will never naturally regenerate or degenerate.

I think the concept of bleeding would make people take their wounds and fighting more seriously.

Now I'm not saying that bleeding would be like -10 hp every few minutes, but it would be enough to be a penalty, and hopefully exacerbated by exertion. Like running in the desert while gushing from three places would obviously not be good for the wounds.

---

Now moving onto the next point would be -broken bones/injuries based on location- People in the past have said they'd role-play the breaking of their bones accordingly, but I've only seen one or two people ever do it. And I personally get VERY annoyed after I've walloped that little man seven frighteningly hard times to the legs and he 'runs' off.

Even if I didn't break the bones there would be some noticeably injury and likely an increased fatigue loss due to the increased pressure on the probably greatly wounded limbs.

Ideally I'd like to see body locations, after sustaining a certain amount of damage, respond differently... minimally and in rare occassions, leaving the bulk up to the player to role-play. Basically it would be just like my 'bleeding' critical hits. A rare occurence, but still a serious threat.

Maybe when fighting a clubber, he would get a good critical hit to your hand and break it. Making it hurt you further to try and do things hand related, (craft, pick up things, etc) until treated.

Anyways, to summarize:

A blood-stained flag for weapons after fighting extensively with them where appropriate (more-likely to bladed weapons).
Bleeding injuries resulting from critical hits with bladed weapons.
Broken bones/damaged limbs resulting from damage with blunt/hard-hitting weapons.

[Tlaloc]

I definately agree with these ideas, and think they've been on the 'To Do' list for some time.

Heres a question, though, regarding blood loss:

Do you, the players, think that it would be better to sacrifice potential playability with the coded "realism" of having blood loss? Beyond the difficulty to code, this would be a major concern. Currently, the world is pretty harsh as it is...would adding code such as this make the game better, or worse?

[Dakkon Black]

Broken bones... the thing with that is lets say roll you roll a critical and loose a leg bone... depending on the person they may find that infringes on playability. However I think it would be neat.

As for bleeding to death. I think its the best idea ever. As much as some are good at RPing the fact that they are near death they still know oocly that they cant die and I find that takes from the exitement. On another mud I get scared shitless when I get cut. And its awesome. I know that I have to do something and you can take some cloth and bind it to stop the bleeding. Therefore you dont -need- a healer but at least they are usefull. I played a doc once and aside from a few occasions to rp it it was never really usefull.

And coating shit in blood? Goddamn I'd love to see more blood. Even have a chance to leave blood objects on the ground.

You see here a small trickling puddle of blood.

You see here a massive blood stain.

[Dan]

Well, if someone is hurt enough and your tracking them you'll see their blood lining the tracks.

As for bleeding to death, if this were possible, IE the code -reimplemented- I would also like to see bandaging a hell of alot easier, or mayby you'll lose a few points when you fail, like now, but it stops the bloodflow. Something along those lines.

The thing about leaving blood in rooms... well, I'd rather not have something like that unless it were in the city. You still can leave blood stains if you want, forage for a rock, pick it up and then drop it like so...

drop rock Splattered with a few drops of crimson blood, ~ lies here.

That sort of thing.

My main concern would be that things would go too far into realism, out of the realm of playability.

[Callisto]

I do not want to see the blood code put in.

It is too minor a gain in realism to make up for the gouge to play factor.

It is very difficult to survive being gang-banged by turbo-charged gith, but it is still possible - if you factor in blood code, along with the incredible damage that stems from pack bonus, it makes a run in with them a death trap that no-one short of a master warrior could ever hope to survive.

The blood code is an ideal punishment for people who refuse to play out being wounded after taking heavy damage, but other then that I would choose to leave handling blood loss to players and the emote command, since more often then not people will play it out in a responsible manner.

[number13]

I know it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see the old dnd hitpoints system vanquished altogether and replaced with an injury system.  
/wakes up from dream

As a side note, it would be nice for bandages to cost less if bleeding damage is added to the game.  

Another thought, if mobs can take bleed too it might serve to reduce some of the difficulty in desert survival, compensating a little for the increased risk to PCs.

[Bestatte]

"Bloody weapon code" already exists and seems to be pretty functional, if my collection of bloody weapons is any indication. Maybe you're just not using the right thrust of your blade? <grin>

If you put in a blood-loss system, you'd also need to implement a more complex regen cycle system. I like things the way they are as far as that goes.

I would still love to see "injury location" code implemented, so that when I come across someone who's bleeding badly, I can tell that it's his left arm that's got the nasty gash in it, or his abdomen with the hole in it. So often the screen scroll during combat will be juuuust fast enough that trying to keep track of exactly where you're hit can be too distracting and cause your death.

A quick "health" or "inj me" would show that I have a hole in my belly, a gash in my "secondary" arm, and a huge bump on the head. That way I know if I'm supposed to be RPing holding a raw mek steak to my head, or using a bandage on my arm, or trying to stuff sandcloth into the hole in my belly. It's just so strange, even now, to see an arrow come out of nowhere and hit me in my foot, and "look me" doesn't show that I have an arrow sticking out of my foot, or that I'm even bleeding from my foot.

It's one of those things from another game that I actually miss.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Bleeding Damage:

Yes please.  It is realism and I don't think it will sacrifice playability at all.  If you live by the sword, your life will get a whole lot more interesting.  No more of this running around with massive, bleedings wounds and then just "sleeping it off."  You'll see a lot more intentional woundings out in the badlands and patiently waiting for the desert to finish the job for you.


I wouldn't necessarily want to see bandages less expensive, but I would like to see a lower class of bandage.   How impossibly hard is it to keep white linen clean?  It should be expensive.  But, every poor Tom, Dick, and Hzzklt'kck will have access to some kind of rag that they can make a po' man's bandage with, at least enough to stop the bleeding even on major wounds.  Maybe sub-par bandages won't do anything more than stem (or slow) the bloodloss.

If bleeding it put in, maybe have bandage be like the cooking skill.  Only a certain sub-class would ever get bandage up to its peak. . but everyone would know the basic concept (Rip big rags to make long little ones.  Tie rag tight to make red stuff stop coming out.)

[X-D]

And the people who think that a blood loss code of some sort would not badly hurt playability are quite out of their minds. And in a way, it is already addressed, it is called mortaly wounded, remember, even now, -2 hp does not mean you are dead.

Wound location, I'm all for that, and have seen it on other muds, pretty spiffy.

[Twilight]

I'd have to be against it.

First off, it sways the balance that much more in favor of fighter types.  Its not just about warrior against warrior, its also about warrior vs merchant, ranger vs magicker, etc.  I just see this as swaying the balance so much in favor of fighter types.  Especially in certain roles, survivability for the non-fighter guilds can be tricky at best, and this stacks against them more than warriors, so don't measure this change by the yardstick of "it would affect my warrior this much" but rather by the guilds it would impact the most.

Second, muls and half giants.  Nearly every hit would wound a normal person, I would think.  At the minimum, you would want some sort of size differencial factored in.  Your human is just not going to put a "wound" on a mek, and is gonna have a hard time doing it to a half giant.  However, that mek is certainly going to wound you.  Again, those advantages are already handled by the code.  I'd just hate to see bigger things get just that much more dangerous.

Third, sleeping to regen is already artificial.  People sit around not healing at near death for three RL days because that is just how the code handles their wounds.  A better solution IMHO would be a "toggle healing" command.  Toggle healing on, you heal hps normally.  Toggle healing off, you don't regen hps unless healed magically.  This leaves the rate of healing up to the player to RP out.

[Sakra]

Aww... Twilight said exactly what I was going to. *shakes his fist*

[Cuusardo]

I've had my weapons get bloodied plenty of times.  Maybe you just aren't doing it right....

[Anarchy]

Its already coded, i had a pc with duel blooded bone halfswords

Not sure how it happened, but hey, they wre blooded and they were bad ass!

[Anonymous]

I had the blood-loss code slapped on one of my PCs when I was first playing.  I was twinky.  It made the 'skin of your teeth' escape from an NPC impossible and I dieded.

Honestly, I wish there were more changes to the game geared towards making PC vs. PC conflict the most deadly and a lot more common, rather than getting surprised by the new uber skill of this NPC or a coded change that makes you get stuck up to your neck in sand for a half an hour.  

Maybe the blood-loss code would only be triggered by PC vs. PC combat since passing out due to blood-loss to a PC would give everyone that opportunity to either give a dying PC some emotes to consider or to fire off some emotes about your limp corpse before you either die or are given a second chance.

I like dying to the computer in single player games.  If I'm going to die in a multiplayer game, I  hope to die to another PC as much as possible.  Which is why I'd love to see Gith become playable again someday.  The focus of this mud seems more and more to rely on code and NPCs for conflict and PC turnover.  Dying is a good thing, it helps keep the drama up, but I want to start fearing the outdoors because of PCs again, not NPCs.

[Bushranger]

I would rather not see a bleeding code put into place on this game. Adding realism is not always a good thing to a game, and I believe any improvements it might make will be far outweighed by the damages to playability it will inevitably introduce.

Adding these features might not affect city based roles, but to the outdoors types - especially independents and small groups - the effect would be grave indeed (Pun intended)

Example: Two independent hunters are out hunting. Bob gets bitten by a snake and is now bleeding to death. Frank pulls out the only bandage they could afford and bandages Bob. Bob is now dead since Frank has a low bandage skill and it wounds him further. Frank loots Bob and heads back for his home city. One the way home a Jozhal scratches Frank. Frank has two choices. Continue going home, bleeding all the way and perhaps dieing before reaching the gates, or going to sleep out in the desert in an effort to stop the blood lose.

Zalanthas is already hard enough.

[Anonymous]

Just FYI, as I remember it, the old blood-loss code that is being discussed is that after a certain point you start losing stun from blood-loss until you pass out.  Unless Tlaloc is talking about a new incarnation.

I'm probably one of the few people still around who was lame enough to have earned it from Krrx in the past.

[JollyGreenGiant]

One possible change that worked with a shooter I like to play occasionally goes as follows - instead of having a weapon do all of its damage immediately, it does part of its damage immediately, and the rest is "potential" damage that takes place over time due to blood loss, shock, etc.  The actual quantity of damage remains unchanged, it just gets doled out over a longer period of time.

For example, let's say you get hit by a sword, and under the current system, take 10 damage.  With the blood loss system, you'd take 5 damage, then "bleed" for 2 damage, then 2, then 1.  At that point, all the damage potential is used, and you no longer suffer from the wound.  Smaller wounds, say, under a certain damage threshold would just deal all their damage at once.  Bandaging wounds could heal potential damage first, and if any "healing" remains, would be applied to hit points.

Something like that would keep the essence of the combat system the same, but add blood loss and shock for those that want it.

I'm glad there is so much discussion... but I'd like to clarify a few things.

I wasn't suggesting that every little nick to you resulting in an unending stream of blood from your wound that every second resulting in a -HP.

I was saying that on occassion during combat a high-damage hit would roll some sort of critical hit that resulting in a spray of blood and then a lingering gusher. Or that high-damage hits with a bladed weapon would leave some sort of bleeding injury... but not severe.

Like for the criticals possibly a gushing wound, and for the normal cuts a simply bleeding wound.

For lesser hits I'd like to think they merely scabbed up and healed on their own.

And for the people that think it will take away from playability... I think it will ADD to playability. And actually force people that don't play out their wounds (to which almost everyone I've encountered save a handful fall into that group) to do so. Lets take a situation right now that may or may not be happening...

Your a lone hunter in the wilderness, inexperienced and unprepared for combat. You come across a scrab and engage in combat. After several misses on your part the scrab gets in a good pinch to your leg and manages to rip open the skin with a lovely critical hit, resulting in a nice splash of blood on the crimson sands and causing you to flee home to your mommy. But before you flee the scrab manages another non-critical hit, to officially lower your hp below the Half mark. Finally you get out of battle and are off to the city.

-In the current code the most common, and most viewed trend by me would be for the injured person to go into the Gaj and sleep, with a change of their ldesc to make it appear they are not sleeping and not injured. And closing the tarp for that extra bit of security. And then wake when they are above their half-hp mark and then just heal regularly. Maybe 'rubbing their wounds' and 'grumbling' and thinking about how stupid they were or something, (praying that these half-assed emotes and playing out of the situation will make up for their god-awful way of handling their injuries).

In my suggested case a person would actually either HAVE TO tend their wounds by binding them with a cheap rag that as someone suggested would be an adequete measure, or seek professional healing. This to me ADDs playability. It would encourage hunting groups that go out to actually bring bandages. I don't recall the last time I've seen the Byn head out into the desert prepared in this manner. I never see anyone carrying bandages, which in Zalanthas would be the equivalent of modern healing. No one carries these things or thinks this way because everyone knows that basically bandages only raise your HP, and someone has to have the bandage skill. When realistically (as someone said) most people knew how to tie a bit of cloth around an open wound... and more people would be aware of the benefit of such a thing.

Anyways, keep up the discussion!

[Lazloth]

And for the people that think it will take away from playability... I think it will ADD to playability. And actually force people that don't play out their wounds (to which almost everyone I've encountered save a handful fall into that group) to do so. Lets take a situation right now that may or may not be happening...

I agree, but think that physical damage can be extended further.  Someone mentioned broken [or severed] limbs, and you can easily make the hop to gouged eyes and the like that can have easily-added code repercussions.  

Additionally, I know that in certain circumstances, a PC will receive scarring, but that's not a general truth.  I'd enjoy seeing welts or respective damaged tissue to survivors of particularly brutal assaults.

Oh, and CRW, you're not alone

[Carnage]

Beyond the difficulty to code, this would be a major concern. Currently, the world is pretty harsh as it is...would adding code such as this make the game better, or worse?

Much worse. However, I would love to see a suggestion like JollyGreenGiant's implemented. -That- would be a much more positive change.

One possible change that worked with a shooter I like to play occasionally goes as follows - instead of having a weapon do all of its damage immediately, it does part of its damage immediately, and the rest is "potential" damage that takes place over time due to blood loss, shock, etc. The actual quantity of damage remains unchanged, it just gets doled out over a longer period of time.

For example, let's say you get hit by a sword, and under the current system, take 10 damage. With the blood loss system, you'd take 5 damage, then "bleed" for 2 damage, then 2, then 1. At that point, all the damage potential is used, and you no longer suffer from the wound. Smaller wounds, say, under a certain damage threshold would just deal all their damage at once. Bandaging wounds could heal potential damage first, and if any "healing" remains, would be applied to hit points.

Something like that would keep the essence of the combat system the same, but add blood loss and shock for those that want it.

[Lazloth]

It would encourage hunting groups that go out to actually bring bandages. I don't recall the last time I've seen the Byn head out into the desert prepared in this manner. I never see anyone carrying bandages, which in Zalanthas would be the equivalent of modern healing. No one carries these things or thinks this way because everyone knows that basically bandages only raise your HP, and someone has to have the bandage skill. When realistically (as someone said) most people knew how to tie a bit of cloth around an open wound... and more people would be aware of the benefit of such a thing.

Oh, and here I'll disagree.  I can't speak for the Byn, but all of my characters and the vast majority with whom I've interacted have relied at one time or another on bandages, crutches, the like.  I'll even go so far as to say that in past transactions involving my PC where the situation was barter between urban and tribal peoples, a healthy portion of the goods were bandages and curative items.  Certainly, to a healthy extent (no pun intended!), these are RP props, but curative items make the rounds (hah, a second time!).

[Rindan]

I wouldn't mind having a fancier injury types, but I think two absolutely essential things would be needed first.  

First, bandaging needs a make over.  Take a piece of linen, rip it with your bare hands, and you should have four or five bandages to stop bleeding.  Anyone should be able to do this, even the most fool merchant.  Anyone should be able to apply the bandage without making things worse, and even if they fail to stop the bleeding the bandage should not be destroyed.  That isn't to say they will always stop the bleeding, but someone should be able to retie a bandage a few times until they get it right.  Even the most n00b of n00bs should be able to stop bleeding fairly quickly.  A skilled person might be able to make things better, especially if the bandage is more then just a ripped strip of cloth, but anyone should be able to stop bleeding and tear a piece of linen without some how messing it up.

Second, I healing would absolutely need a make over.  I personally don't like the whole sleeping thing as it is.  It just forces people to do very silly and unrealistic things.  It isn't a big deal if you are in a clan, but if you are not, needing sleep is very dangerous.  People have run into the drovian temple before to get sleep because they thought it was safer then sleeping in the Gaj, and they were probably OOCly right.  I would much rather see regeneration on an exponential scale.  The closer you get to zero, the longer it takes to heal.  If you get very low, it might take a long time without medical help to heal up.  Sleeping might make it slightly faster, but for the most part you just need to wait.  If people could tell the difference from a fresh wound and someone who is stable but badly injured, it would stop the "OMG YOU ARE BLEEDING ALL OVER THE BAR!!!!" responses people get when they don't instantly sleep off heavy damage.  It would also make playing a healer possible, as people would want to avoid being near death for a few days.

Of course, this is all pipe dream stuff.  I can think of few things that would be more terrifying then trying to recode combat and damage.  If it happens some day, the imm that does it gets my worship for the month.

[Stroker]

Bleeding damage would be okay if there was a relatively simple and easy way to fix it. Such as a medic for clans that can actually be coded to bandage wounds, etc. However, for solitary characters it would most likely mean certain death if they fail to watch their hp. Also, instead of having bleeding damage occur at certain hp level, it could occur after a powerful hit - such as .... maybe wounds and up or ... something like that, but then if you're sparring, it would kind of such to start bleeding from a blunt weapon .. but oh well, I guess the hp thing can work well too. I guess if possible, there should be different blood draining levels.

[creeper386]

Alright, I'm trying something different. Basically I typed out my normal really long post and then typed out the overview at the end. I'm putting the overview up here and all the rambling below. Your welcome.

Overview: Basically I'm for an idea like JGG has. Same amount of damage but it's doled out over a certain amount of time. This would at first seem to make big scary things less scary, but would make things realistic damage wise. I'm also for damage locations, this would work wonders with the above. Could tell that someones bleeding from thier arm or what not, or it looks funny and is massively bruised but there isn't bleeding or what not. Thirdly I'm against coded injuries such as broken bones and such, it may help RP to a small degree, but it forces people into downtime from the roles they want to play, and would be a huge turn-off.


Creeper


I'd accept JollyGreenGiant's idea on the bleeding code. As in the damage done is still the same but your better off if you have someone around with a healer as you wouldn't loose as much HP and such. Although even if this isn't done I think bandaging should be made easier and cheaper. Just plain cloth bandages cost as much as several cheap shirts, and I don't understand that at all.

Locations to be able to tell where you are hurt would be great, but would probably be a bitch to code. I wouldn't want to see broken bones or anything like that going in, but to be able to look at someones injuries and have an idea what it is would be great. Be able to tell if someone was tore apart from a few meks or just was slapped around by some blunt weapons or something.

I know I've RPd out major injuries and I've seen a good number of them over the time I've been around, I could see it being good for more people to do it, but I don't think it should be forced on anyone. People come here for the RP yes, but some people come for different aspects of it. Some people don't like playing non-combative roles. Forcing them into other things would most likely end up with them idling alot to heal or stop playing altogether because every couple days they are stuck with two days of down time from what they want to play.

[crymerci]

I am not entirely opposed to a "blood loss" system if bandaging were looked at.  By looked at, I mean for example either a) the starting level of effectiveness raised a bit, b) a minimal level of skill given to every class (ala shield use or cooking) or c) an unskilled but successful bandage attempt, even if not increasing hp, would stop the blood loss factor.

I would also assume that the blood loss code would only come into effect for "very hard" or harder hits?  Or something similar?

Edit: I guess I should have read page 2 of the thread.