sponsored role unstorage opinion

[Delirium]

After reading this whole thread I'm fully understanding why it might be seen as a can of worms to offer unstorage. BUT.

If the player can come up with and propagate a reason for their character wandering off into the sunset, and they're known to be responsible, and they behave responsibly while in their new role, I still think it should be an option on the table. Perhaps their old character gave their lover a tearful goodbye and told them to move on, and tied up all other example ties-- which lets the stories progress. I think part of the issue around storage is the iron curtain of communication where players are discouraged from giving a reason for their absence and alerting other players of them (through staff-approved channels).

If it weren't for unstorage, we would never have seen Faithful Lord Elithan's golden years, or had Sergeant Nora of Kurac's return to glory.

Perhaps let's focus less on negative "what ifs" and more on offering opportunities to build and contribute to the ongoing stories of the game.

[X-D]

Oooh, legit reasons.

Alright.

How completely jarring it is. Presumably, the PC you're storing has friends, acquaintances, a romantic interest or some goals and plots. You take on a role and survive, say, a year. Almost a decade of IG time. Then you unstore.

Best friend Amos: "....Thought you were dead seven years ago!" (Jarring)
Lover Amosa: "You were dead, I moved on. This is weird." (Jarring)
How're those plots and goals coming along? "Well, haven't budged in eight years." (No IC sense)
General player-base/acquaintances: "So, what happened?" *shrug* "I went and sailed the silt sea for eight years?" (Jarring)

How is this any different then when somebody takes a break for 3 months to a couple years. Happens all the time. I have done it a few times. Only one PC did I not play. And not because of it might bother somebody else...but because he was too old. Not that long ago I was playing a Byn sarge and see this PC sparring others, Had no idea who it was. Checked the GDB and that RUNNER had taken a 3 RL year break. Played it off NP.

But, Let us go with it anyway. Firstly. How many PCs that were around when you stored AND interacted with would realistically still be around?
Don't forget the sdesc/mdesc change.
Play it "as" a new PC. I mean after all, How is it any more jarring then when a brand new 30 year old PC pops into the gaj with a military back story and no skills? Which happens how many times a week?

Will do the rest of these in reverse.

- Out of the characters 'skin' and need to relearn them, their quirks (basically a new character again)

I do not see that as a bad thing...likely to renew interest even more or maybe they will store/suicide.

- Staffing time - unstore (Admin/Producer level), work out a reasonable or agreeable explanation as to where this character was for over a year IG (Storyteller level/Admin level), new role call (story teller) new leader set up (storyteller + admin).

I always have issue with when "staff workload" Is brought up. And how many admin/producers are there
now? Besides...How often do you honestly think you would be doing this...1-2 times a year...maybe? It took longer to post here then to unstore somebody, unless they actually had been stored long enough to need sdesc/desc change.

The new role call part you already have anyway, moot point.

Next ones altogether.

So, let's say the counter argument here (feel free to add your own, but one I'd expect): "Set a 3 month time limit."
- Barely enough time to get 'advanced' on the leadership role.
- Mind play at 2.5 months - 'God, what if I die at 3 months and a day?! Or, in a bored patch - Time to play loose and against character behaviour.
- Store leadership. Unstore previous, die inside a week, regret, demotivating.

Simple answer, Don't set a time limit.
That deals with the first couple issues.
Last issue, Shit happens. I would openly laugh at somebody who had that happen. But again, it is something that can happen with any PC no matter how old. I have known people to type N instead of L N and kill off a loved 6 month PC. They were pretty demotivated.

And as stated before, Have rules, Accepable play/reasons etc to get unstored and unacceptable even amounting to loss of trust and that karma point. (if really bad)

So far I've seen:

1) More people may apply.
2) Not having to restart at base skill levels with a new char -> major feedback in Halaster's thread: "The grind".

I would be perfectly willing to consider other ways to deal with these things as I think they are valid, at least to the point of filling a role call, Not so much at other times.

But I will give #3 Player retention.

It might not be a huge % but over the years I have seen many people get off a leader role and since they had no PC decided to take a break. Sometimes that break is a week, sometimes a year and sometimes forever. Usually when it was an early death, though they liked the role, the fact that they stored to play this and it was a month or whatever does bother people.

But the people who had that sponsered role for like a year+ are far more likely to take that break and never return. Having that PC waiting could mitigate that some.

[Lotion]

A little surprised one major factor hasn't been mentioned thus far.

How completely jarring it is. Presumably, the PC you're storing has friends, acquaintances, a romantic interest or some goals and plots. You take on a role and survive, say, a year. Almost a decade of IG time. Then you unstore.

Best friend Amos: "....Thought you were dead seven years ago!" (Jarring)
Lover Amosa: "You were dead, I moved on. This is weird." (Jarring)
How're those plots and goals coming along? "Well, haven't budged in eight years." (No IC sense)
General player-base/acquaintances: "So, what happened?" *shrug* "I went and sailed the silt sea for eight years?" (Jarring)

---

So, let's say the counter argument here (feel free to add your own, but one I'd expect): "Set a 3 month time limit."
- Barely enough time to get 'advanced' on the leadership role.
- Mind play at 2.5 months - 'God, what if I die at 3 months and a day?! Or, in a bored patch - Time to play loose and against character behaviour.
- Store leadership. Unstore previous, die inside a week, regret, demotivating.
- Staffing time - unstore (Admin/Producer level), work out a reasonable or agreeable explanation as to where this character was for over a year IG (Storyteller level/Admin level), new role call (story teller) new leader set up (storyteller + admin).
- Out of the characters 'skin' and need to relearn them, their quirks (basically a new character again)

---

What are the benefits to this?

So far I've seen:

1) More people may apply.
2) Not having to restart at base skill levels with a new char -> major feedback in Halaster's thread: "The grind".

You make good points against the argument that there should be a three month time limit, that would not be a good solution to the supposed problem. You also provide a good example of when unstorage is inappropriate(i.e. after a super long loved character). After playing a good leader that really sticks like that there aren't many players that would want to unstore their previous character.

I don't think a cut and dry rule could be easily made and that it would possibly have to be a judgement call every time which seems to be the sort of policy staff has recently been trying to move away from.

Perhaps allowing unstorage isn't the solution, but instead creating a system where storing an existing character for a sponsored role does not feel so expensive. I will perhaps ruminate on this idea and make another opinion post or maybe get bored and not...

[Delirium]

What about... going in a completely different direction, and discarding the untorage option in favor of an "app in for a sponsored role whenever" option?

Why not have continually open rolecall for all clans which accept those sorts of positions? With a maximum of 1-3 currently active sponsored characters per clan, depending on the clan itself and how many "leaders" and "lackeys" it can support. In that vein, let people app in lackeys as well as leaders, too. That way, when people do lose their long-lived or beloved characters, and they are open to the idea of playing a sponsored role, they can just app in, whether or not there is an actual call for it. Then, if there is room, or if there is a similar position open they might like, there we go!

Almost every single clan could benefit from this. It would mean more coverage, and more overlap, both in playtimes and in ensuring there is less of a gap when one of the characters needs to take a break or ends up dying, as one is wont to do in Zalanthas.

If there is a specific, urgent need, we could still have rolecalls, but otherwise, why not shift the policy toward having every clan that is open, be open for role applications at any point? Decide on the max amount of positions, both leader and lackey, and let it roll.

I bet that would see a lot more people being willing to give it a shot, since it's no longer giving up a character, but gaining one.

[Taahir]

A little surprised one major factor hasn't been mentioned thus far.

How completely jarring it is. Presumably, the PC you're storing has friends, acquaintances, a romantic interest or some goals and plots. You take on a role and survive, say, a year. Almost a decade of IG time. Then you unstore.

Best friend Amos: "....Thought you were dead seven years ago!" (Jarring)
Lover Amosa: "You were dead, I moved on. This is weird." (Jarring)
How're those plots and goals coming along? "Well, haven't budged in eight years." (No IC sense)
General player-base/acquaintances: "So, what happened?" *shrug* "I went and sailed the silt sea for eight years?" (Jarring)

That happens all the time already, when people return after absences or just play for an hour every few weeks. It's annoying, but we generally shrug it off and move on. It doesn't have the same negative impact on the game as the current lack of consistent and available leadership PCs - not even close.

The impact also lessens if the sponsored PC lives longer - if that PC ends up living for a RL year, the vast majority of PCs that interacted with your old PC will be dead.

[Jihelu]

To everyone who replied to Shabago after me: I mostly agree with all of you.

[Veselka]

What about... going in a completely different direction, and discarding the untorage option in favor of an "app in for a sponsored role whenever" option?

Why not have continually open rolecall for all clans which accept those sorts of positions? With a maximum of 1-3 currently active sponsored characters per clan, depending on the clan itself and how many "leaders" and "lackeys" it can support. In that vein, let people app in lackeys as well as leaders, too. That way, when people do lose their long-lived or beloved characters, and they are open to the idea of playing a sponsored role, they can just app in, whether or not there is an actual call for it. Then, if there is room, or if there is a similar position open they might like, there we go!

Almost every single clan could benefit from this. It would mean more coverage, and more overlap, both in playtimes and in ensuring there is less of a gap when one of the characters needs to take a break or ends up dying, as one is wont to do in Zalanthas.

If there is a specific, urgent need, we could still have rolecalls, but otherwise, why not shift the policy toward having every clan that is open, be open for role applications at any point? Decide on the max amount of positions, both leader and lackey, and let it roll.

I bet that would see a lot more people being willing to give it a shot, since it's no longer giving up a character, but gaining one.

I think this is one of the better suggestions I've seen.

In so doing -- People aren't giving up a PC they may already be enjoying immensely in order to jump into a sponsored leadership role. Their PC dies, or they're bored of the concept and store it. Then they look on the GDB and see:

-T'zai Byn accepting: 1 Sergeant, 1 Trooper
-House Oash, House Rennik, House Jal, House Tor: Accepting 1 Junior Noble
-House Winrothol, House Tenneshi, House Dasari: Accepting 1 Surif Noble
-Sun King's Legion: Accepting 1 Corporal (Life-Sworn)
-House Kurac: Accepting 1 Merchant, 1 Agent.

Then I can think to myself...

Hmm, actually a GMH role sounds good to me right now, how about I apply.

Staff can look over my application just as they would during a role call. Except you also don't need to wait 2 weeks to find out if you got it.

They accept, set up the time for setup and so on, and then the ticker on the GDB posting goes down to:

-House Kurac: Accepting 1 Merchant

It would require some upkeep (!) which can obviously be annoying and a time suck. But I can't imagine it's more of a time suck than writing up elaborate Role Call requests, monitoring a slew of applications, deciding who and who isn't qualified or so on, choosing someone, then contacting them for acceptance, setting them up, getting them in game, etc.

If we as players could more easily decide WHEN we apply for Sponsored Leadership Roles, and they were more open in a revolving capacity...You might see more people applying overall.

[Nao]

What about... going in a completely different direction, and discarding the untorage option in favor of an "app in for a sponsored role whenever" option?

Why not have continually open rolecall for all clans which accept those sorts of positions? With a maximum of 1-3 currently active sponsored characters per clan, depending on the clan itself and how many "leaders" and "lackeys" it can support. In that vein, let people app in lackeys as well as leaders, too. That way, when people do lose their long-lived or beloved characters, and they are open to the idea of playing a sponsored role, they can just app in, whether or not there is an actual call for it. Then, if there is room, or if there is a similar position open they might like, there we go!

Almost every single clan could benefit from this. It would mean more coverage, and more overlap, both in playtimes and in ensuring there is less of a gap when one of the characters needs to take a break or ends up dying, as one is wont to do in Zalanthas.

If there is a specific, urgent need, we could still have rolecalls, but otherwise, why not shift the policy toward having every clan that is open, be open for role applications at any point? Decide on the max amount of positions, both leader and lackey, and let it roll.

I bet that would see a lot more people being willing to give it a shot, since it's no longer giving up a character, but gaining one.

This is a great idea.

[Usiku]

-T'zai Byn accepting: 1 Sergeant, 1 Trooper
-House Oash, House Rennik, House Jal, House Tor: Accepting 1 Junior Noble
-House Winrothol, House Tenneshi, House Dasari: Accepting 1 Surif Noble
-Sun King's Legion: Accepting 1 Corporal (Life-Sworn)
-House Kurac: Accepting 1 Merchant, 1 Agent.

This one is making me scratch my head a bit. While it isn't presented exactly like that, the sentiment is the same. If there isn't an active role call going for a leadership position.. it's because it's full.. to whatever max. We generally keep those roles full. The exact same thing would happen and those slots would fill up straight away?

That said, if you really want to play something, it's worth dropping in a question because we might be able to find a way to work it in.

And for anything other than leadership roles.. then obviously those are open all the time anyway, you just go join a clan.

[Dar]

---

What are the benefits to this?

So far I've seen:

1) More people may apply.
2) Not having to restart at base skill levels with a new char -> major feedback in Halaster's thread: "The grind".

How many times I passed on a role I would've liked to play, just because I didn't want to completely lose my current character. With this option a possibility, I can try my luck apping and things might end up great and fun. Greatest benefit of all.

I wonder how many years did Kija just ... Exist, because he didn't want to end the character. Despite the player wanting to play everywhere else, but Tablelands. 


The jarring part is easy and happens all the time. People go on breaks. Characters do not get auto stored if they go on a break.

If a character joined a clan and then ascended up to a leadership role, then decided he needed to go on a one year break. Are you saying you are going to store him?  He's not a sponsored role.

Plenty of IG explanations.  Transfer. Got moved to Red Storm to work the shop there after getting drunk and calling Senior Agent Bubba an inbred idiot.

It's not like their storage will be sudden. They'll have room and time to close up loose threads.  And it won't be so jarring if they are back next week.

Welp, someone else called Bubba an inbred idiot and he forgot all about me.

[Delirium]

-T'zai Byn accepting: 1 Sergeant, 1 Trooper
-House Oash, House Rennik, House Jal, House Tor: Accepting 1 Junior Noble
-House Winrothol, House Tenneshi, House Dasari: Accepting 1 Surif Noble
-Sun King's Legion: Accepting 1 Corporal (Life-Sworn)
-House Kurac: Accepting 1 Merchant, 1 Agent.

This one is making me scratch my head a bit. While it isn't presented exactly like that, the sentiment is the same. If there isn't an active role call going for a leadership position.. it's because it's full.. to whatever max. We generally keep those roles full. The exact same thing would happen and those slots would fill up straight away?

That said, if you really want to play something, it's worth dropping in a question because we might be able to find a way to work it in.

And for anything other than leadership roles.. then obviously those are open all the time anyway, you just go join a clan.

I see what you mean, but my suggestion is to loosen it up a bit and let someone app in even if there is already a leader (where it makes sense). Obviously for roles where There Can Be Only One, that doesn't make sense, but perhaps then they could app in as a subordinate (aide, private, etc). The app process would screen the issues mentioned earlier with responsibility and suitability for the clan. So what if there are two, three Salarri merchants? So what if there's two Sath nobles? Let it happen. Let there be overlap, especially if they're on different timezones.

There is the possibility of the game ending up a bit top-heavy, but considering the difficulty in acquiring people for leadership/sponsored roles currently, I suspect it would more swing toward an equilibrium. Plus, you can always decide on caps per clan. My suggestion boils down to widening those caps and letting there be multiples, that can be apped for whether or not there's a current merchant/dealer/noble in that particular clan. The more the merrier and as long as staff is screening the process I see few downsides.

Edit to add:
Tangentially, one of the biggest issues with sponsored roles is being able to cling to playing the character and not getting swamped under by the Paperwork and the Responsibility. Having overlap may very well help with that so that you're not the sole point of contact, or if you've got someone who apped in as a trusted member of the clan, you have someone you KNOW you can delegate to. Ideally, anyway. Wil it always work out like that? Probably not. But I feel like it's worth a try and it could definitely help. I remember a few times when playing a leader, and numbers were low in my area but demand for my time was high, my clan staff recruited in a trusted "aide" sort of position for me and it was an enormous help in being able to delegate responsibilities.

[Nao]

It could also help with continuity (the existing leader can fill you in about plots) and avoid these gaps where there is no leader at all. Right now, it seems to take weeks and sometimes over a month to get a new PC into the game, from the point where the old one stopped logging in or died. These gaps kill activity when minions move on, store, or leave the game altogether. Then the new leader has to start from scratch again and it takes more time until they can get things up and running. This is if they stick around.

I would love to see staff hiring a bit more than technically needed to account for the unavoidable attrition and avoid these gaps where there are no leadership PCs in the clan. That would ideally mean having more than one slot for most roles.

[Brokkr]

why it might be seen as a can of worms to offer unstorage

One of the issues I see is that sometimes you think you are opening a can of worms and it ends up being a can of sand worms.

Someone said "maybe" would be okay. Except it isn't, because it isn't something very clear where expectations are the same from the get-go for both Player and Staff, with something (a character) that Players often have emotional attachment to. Which still might be just a can of worms, as most players are mature, reasonable, emotionally and mentally stable. The can of sandworms is that it is only most, and so with things like this that are likely emotionally charged (at least in my experience) it is best to have some very clear, upfront guidelines.

[X-D]

I do not think anybody has argued against that being a thing.

I know I have put up possible solutions. Long as the rules are up front.

Yes, You can get unstored...
BUT, here are exceptions.
List of exceptions:

Role call comes.
Go check unstore rules and compare to current PC. Current PC fits, Apply.
Current PC seems to fit but maybe something questionable. Put in request.
Staff says good to go, put in app, Staff says no, this does not fly. Decide to keep PC or App anyway knowing not going to unstore.

Leave a final bit in the rules that some IG events could prevent unstoring...such as world changing events, Tribe wiped out, Allanak sliding into the silt sea...etc.

Really not that hard.

[Brokkr]

What are the exceptions?

Don't toss work over the wall, saying it is easy.  Do the work.

[X-D]

Huh, I had already listed most of them a page or two back. But, Recap and refine.

1: If applying for a templar role. No unstore.
(reason) Templars have too great ability to be involved in world ranging and world changing events.

2A: Cannot have a PC of the same city if applying to noble role. (in other words, you have a nakki PC and apply for a noble of the same city, cannot unstore.
(reason) Nobles have quite a bit of reach inside a city.
2B: Same rules when applying to militia/legion officers and for the same reasons.

3: Must be unclanned (tribes do not count as clans)
(reason) I simply think it is unfair and problematic to be taking up that slot, even virtually. Also I think it makes coming back far less "jarring" and allows for an easier going away story.

(edit)
4: Cannot unstore limited roles, IE: Sorcerer, Psi and staff would know if there is others.

That covers most exceptions I can think of along with the reasons.

I think in most cases PCs not falling into the exceptions should be fine. Tribes not counting as clans...could be changed or refined. I just think that a tribal could just be like, Going on spirit journey, taking time off to raise my family etc. And since they are not IG recruited anyway...

And of course have the caveat about world events. As while the PC is stored it will be assumed they are living in normal home, be that a camp, the rinth etc. Unless otherwise approved by staff. But that approval would be rare or just do not offer it.

[Alesan]

It sounds like the solution may have to be making leadership roles more appealing than your current long-term character.

[Inks]

I'm against it, for sure. If it doesn't work out you will know too much oocly that your pc can use. And most roles don't allow dwarves, lotion, so not sure why this is an issue for you.

[X-D]

If it doesn't work out you will know too much oocly that your pc can use.

You realize that is the case for any PC past your very first right?

[Lotion]

It sounds like the solution may have to be making leadership roles more appealing than your current long-term character.

The goal should be to make the benefits of accepting a leadership role outweigh the costs for people who are playing long-term characters.

[Alesan]

It sounds like the solution may have to be making leadership roles more appealing than your current long-term character.

The goal should be to make the benefits of accepting a leadership role outweigh the costs for people who are playing long-term characters.

Yep. And staff are shooting down unstorage at every turn. So... what then?

[Jihelu]

It sounds like the solution may have to be making leadership roles more appealing than your current long-term character.

The goal should be to make the benefits of accepting a leadership role outweigh the costs for people who are playing long-term characters.

Yep. And staff are shooting down unstorage at every turn. So... what then?

I guess things stay the same and we get another post, that I think we also got for one of the last rolecalls, of staff wondering why only like one person applied

[Shabago]

Are we?

Brokkr asked for a take on how a player would view such rules.

I've asked for tangible benefits and listed cons/issues to arise, for consideration.

Who said no?

[Jihelu]

Are we?

Brokkr asked for a take on how a player would view such rules.

I've asked for tangible benefits and listed cons/issues to arise, for consideration.

Who said no?

I think every staffer comment being something akin to 'devil's advocate' and 'provide all the benefits for me' makes me think staff doesn't want to engage in a discussion and more wants to shut down dissenting opinions.

I reread all the replies from staffers and I didn't get an impression from any of the replies that staff has anything on their mind but complaints about the idea.
Does ANYONE on staff side agree with this? Are we only allowed to see the staff discussion, on our end, when it's 'HMMM have you considered why this idea won't work at all'?

[creeper386]

To me, I think the argument that this would lead to people only "half" in on playing a leadership role is kind of moot. A player is saying, hey I want to play these roles, but I also don't want to give up my current character, and the assumption is they would then be willing to give up on this leadership role easier because of that?

If I get a leadership role, and it ends up not working out, it's going to not work out rather or not I have another PC waiting. It's going to be an issue of the role perhaps not fitting my preferences in a way I didn't anticipate.

In terms of tying up loose ends, if there is some time between getting accepted and actually storing where a character can make arrangements, I think that solves a lot of issues. I rarely don't go without some sort of virtual presence to explain logging out or being gone for a RL week or more anyways. A planned trip into virtual space can make this much less jarring. We see this all the time anyways, "Ooh, Merchant So and So is working at the family estate for a few months."