Re: lookAll topic

[Night Queen]

On the one hand it's nice that someone is sharing this, buuuut... The "lookall" alias will upset staff since the current between-the-lines rules verdict is that look isn't just being aware of your surroundings (and yeah, I know this is a subjective thing but this is what I was told) but actually turning head as you move (and with that take on it, it becomes the characters' head being Owl-like/possessed swinging around)

Also there are a few poor taste canned emotes included that would likely get most people force-stored for trying out...

[Halaster]

On the one hand it's nice that someone is sharing this, buuuut... The "lookall" alias will upset staff since the current between-the-lines rules verdict is that look isn't just being aware of your surroundings (and yeah, I know this is a subjective thing but this is what I was told) but actually turning head as you move (and with that take on it, it becomes the characters' head being Owl-like/possessed swinging around)

Also there are a few poor taste canned emotes included that would likely get most people force-stored for trying out...

Not sure what you're talking about here.  It is 100% fine to have an alias to "look north, look south, look east, look west'.  I have one for in my client that I use all the time on my characters.  We even considered implementing a command for this.  Forcing someone to "emote looks around" as they type all those commands is just adding unnecessary spam, in my opinion.  Not to mention, if someone is walking around they generally don't just stare straight ahead (I'm not talking about modern times with smartphones, heh).

[Night Queen]

I am going to warn you that what I'm seeing there is a repeated and constant issue of your character looking in all directions like they had a head on a literal swivel."
A staff member sends:
     "You need to roleplay in this game, not spam commands endlessly.  If your character is snapping their head around in all directions, emote about it."
A staff member sends:
     "need more realism sometimes.  Visualize you, yourself, looking in three cardinal directions in the space of a second.  Things like that.  If you take a moment to think about it, it looks kinda silly, people would notice that."

[X-D]

I have an alias for that as well that I have used for more then 20 years. Nobody has said anything...Head on a swivel, silly, eyes move and you look around ALL the time. A comment like that from staff would have earned them a complaint.

[Night Queen]

Looking in general maybe grey area but behind you while moving seems like one that would definitely be noticeable, if we are going on a model that the look command is not just a way to represent periphal vision but actually turning the head

[X-D]

Looking behind you requires you to turn your head 10-15 degrees. Your not doing the exorcist. Pretty normal movements. You would do more if in a place of danger (the entire game world) Or when hunting.

I rather think that many people do not pay attention to how much your brain at least, is actually paying attention when you are out and about.

Hell, I have looked behind me 3 times while I was typing the above.

[Maso]

I also use a 'lookall' alias, that I use a lot.. it's a bit of a subconscious twitch if I'm honest. Sure, it might be a little unrealistic to look in all directions a lot.. but it's also unrealistic that I have no innate environmental awareness in the rooms beyond the room I am currently standing in and the fact that I obscurely cannot see in diagonals.. I feel like that balances out somewhat.

This is quite the derail though!

[Halaster]

I am going to warn you that what I'm seeing there is a repeated and constant issue of your character looking in all directions like they had a head on a literal swivel."
A staff member sends:
     "You need to roleplay in this game, not spam commands endlessly.  If your character is snapping their head around in all directions, emote about it."
A staff member sends:
     "need more realism sometimes.  Visualize you, yourself, looking in three cardinal directions in the space of a second.  Things like that.  If you take a moment to think about it, it looks kinda silly, people would notice that."

I believe they were wrong.

[Shalooonsh]

I am going to warn you that what I'm seeing there is a repeated and constant issue of your character looking in all directions like they had a head on a literal swivel."
A staff member sends:
     "You need to roleplay in this game, not spam commands endlessly.  If your character is snapping their head around in all directions, emote about it."
A staff member sends:
     "need more realism sometimes.  Visualize you, yourself, looking in three cardinal directions in the space of a second.  Things like that.  If you take a moment to think about it, it looks kinda silly, people would notice that."

I believe they were wrong.

There's definitely some context missing here.  Is it realistic to look 360 sometimes?  Yup.

Is it realistic to do it EVERY.  SINGLE.  SECOND.

No.

Context matters.

[Jihelu]

I don't really think 'realistic or not' one should have to emote doing a command we have, especially for look.

e
l n;l s;l e

I do that shit constantly when mapping.
A quick head turn left, head turn right, move forward is not very noticable.
I do it everytime I leave my house, the trailer I'm in at work, crossing the street, etc.

The character is most likely doing that constantly while traveling as well, keeping an eye on their surroundings (Yet still able to go 1 room east and get attacked by a bahamut that was 1 room north)

This is such a small thing to complain about.
"If you take a moment to think about it, it looks kinda silly, people would notice that.""
It really doesn't. I'll record a video of me doing it if it makes people feel better.

[Strongheart]

There's definitely some context missing here.  Is it realistic to look 360 sometimes?  Yup.

Is it realistic to do it EVERY.  SINGLE.  SECOND.

No.

Context matters.

I believe it is well within that player's comfort to do that. It doesn't affect the rest of us players negatively so I fail to see how it's wrong to do, in this context or otherwise.

[triste]

So to be clear on what is going on here:
- The Arma Moonlit Sky client has some spammy look all behavior and has for a while.
- Players have used this client and their own spammy look all aliases for years.
- Night Queen uses the same aliases we've all been using and suddenly gets a firm talking to.

Since reading this anger management book I am incapable of seeing unfairness because unfairness triggers my anger like nothing else.

So I am just going to conclude that Night Queen is just cursed. Cursed like I am.

[triste]

To be clear, I understand why command spam is annoying to staff as a coder, but just wanted to lay out some facts to try and figure out what's going on here. It's a mixture of a client acting funny and people acting funny.

The suckiest thing about being cursed is it's super hard to be un-cursed.

[MeTekillot]

I am going to warn you that what I'm seeing there is a repeated and constant issue of your character looking in all directions like they had a head on a literal swivel."
A staff member sends:
     "You need to roleplay in this game, not spam commands endlessly.  If your character is snapping their head around in all directions, emote about it."
A staff member sends:
     "need more realism sometimes.  Visualize you, yourself, looking in three cardinal directions in the space of a second.  Things like that.  If you take a moment to think about it, it looks kinda silly, people would notice that."

I believe they were wrong.

There's definitely some context missing here.  Is it realistic to look 360 sometimes?  Yup.

Is it realistic to do it EVERY.  SINGLE.  SECOND.

No.

Context matters.

I could fathomably see the staff member in question being in the right if Night Queen has some sort of automated thing set up that outputs this to a separate window every 2 to 5 seconds or something, but otherwise...

[X-D]

While context matters, code limits do too (Though since look direction does not echo, I do not think that in this case context matters either.)

IRL when I walk out my door I am facing west, Without moving I can see 800 yards west, 650 NW, 1500 N, 800 SW and around 200 S. Guess what, in arm, you cannot do ANY of that, let alone the diagonals. If I move my head just a little to the right and left I catch all the other directions as well. And people do that CONSTANTLY. Not every 2 seconds...every single second.

And the one command that seems like it should help, (watch direction) Is actually more harmful then not using it. It is easily defeated and you lose scan and you have to be standing or seated and cannot change position without having to do it again.

In short, The code is so limited here that using a workaround is basically mandatory. Look direction does not echo so the only people seeing it is staff using snoop....And Um...You know what they say about TV shows you do not like...change the channel.

[Brokkr]

I'd have to say if someone was running that for combat or chase purposes, rather than to see what is around when they move into a new room, for instance, I would find it questionable.  I wouldn't consider it much different than a set target PlayerB;autobash type arrangement.

[Iiyola]

Theres also a thing irl such as peripheral vision, something that really can't be coded.

[Patuk]

I'd have to say if someone was running that for combat or chase purposes, rather than to see what is around when they move into a new room, for instance, I would find it questionable.  I wouldn't consider it much different than a set target PlayerB;autobash type arrangement.

I have seen people get told off for autobashing, once. When people began spamfleeing I decided to start just mashing the enter key on BASH when I thought my target might get up. At some point the code is jankier than the solution, and telling people off for it seems like a poor deal.

And yes, Zalanthans are ridiculously fucking bad at spatial awareness. Telling people off for using the look command a lot does more harm than good.

[X-D]

Well, I admit, I almost only ever use it while traveling. Combat and chase are better served with watch and chase IMO.

Well, if I am playing a new PC who is in a place where his head would be on a swivel, there too...You know. 4 hour PC salt grebbing...That gets a LOT of lookAll.

[Greve]

As long as mekillots can hide in plain sight just northeast of you on the featureless salt flats, you can look around as much as you want. It sounds like whatever staff member yelled at you for doing so was just looking for any reason to criticize you. Noone wants to see people emoting looking around every time they step into the next room.

[Tranquil]

I've been using a look all alias for years now.

Seems common sense to me, since a hunter on a flat plain of grass isn't going to have tunnel vision. He's going to be looking everywhere ahead to make sure a bahamet doesn't eat him.

Though I do think a constant spam of it is unrealistic and also gamey.

[Brokkr]

There is a world of difference between using an alias to look in directions once you move into a new room and the PK mud style autolook triggers that gag the non-useful data but trigger every 2-3 seconds to that your are constantly vigilant and can auto set your combat script triggers.  If we seem someone using look every 2-3 seconds in the same room without moving, it points to someone that is using a PK mud style setup.

[Malken]

So much for trusting the players...

[Wday]

There is a look all command?!

[Hauwke]

There is a look all command?!

No, but you can make an alias within your client to send multiple commands.

[Bogre]

As long as mekillots can hide in plain sight just northeast of you on the featureless salt flats, you can look around as much as you want. It sounds like whatever staff member yelled at you for doing so was just looking for any reason to criticize you. Noone wants to see people emoting looking around every time they step into the next room.

Or when seeing things with scan takes about 20 looks in one direction.

[SmashedTregil]

I was literally trained to look n,e,s,w on patrols in Kurac for my very very first character. That was over a decade ago at least. I've been doing it since. It is a habit that is pummelled into you by pretty much any military clan.

And I agree with Greve. You want realism? Make it impossible for a Building Size Lizard to sneak up on you. If you don't, then let's scratch this off to the necessities of a world made of squares and text.

[MeTekillot]

In the same vein, who really gives a shit? Any impactful action that you're able to take on something that you see with look all is gated by the various delays that we have for all of our skills.

[Night Queen]

I just wanted to make sure everyone was treated the same on this because if something is not allowed it should be the same for everyone and I don't like keeping on seeing people saying they use this - not many seem to know it's not allowed, so it should be written down so it's clear like a bunch of other minor rulings (so there's not the feeling of trying to avoid stepping on an invisible minefield)

The game log should show I was only typing 'look n' every every now and then and not so often to be spammy, nothing like that at all, any storyteller that's observed me would know neither that or "lookall" is something that is happening automatically, I was obviously typing it specifically for that direction - the swivelling stuff wouldn't apply to that since it was in one direction, the message seemed to be against using an alias like this before, when moving (looking around after every room move) since the message was against looking in three cardinal directions in the space of a second which is also a description of what this alias being offered for download on the forum does:

There is a world of difference between using an alias to look in directions once you move into a new room

I agree with this:

If your character is snapping their head around in all directions, emote about it.

but people should know it's expected and not just be using aliases like this if it's not actually allowed so it's the same for everyone.

[Lotion]

The simple solution is to update your lookall alias with an emote about your head swiveling.

[Lotion]

Another potential solution would to wish up every room asking for a staffer to find out what mobs are in the rooms diagonally adjacent to your current room so that you don't get ambushed by a bahamekillot. (do not actually do this)

[Lotion]

[Usiku]

I think it's pretty clear here from the various responses from staff (and players) that a 'lookall' alias is a perfectly fine thing that you are allowed to use. Just avoid spamming it 5 times per second so you don't look like a robot.

[triste]

Usiku's summation is good here.

The elephant in the room here probably has to do with how skill checks work when detecting hidden people. If look spamming allows for multiple chances to detect people, maybe we need to code in some throttling for look or look skill rolls, though throttling in a game like this is probably always a little bit of a PITA to build. And so here we are today.

[Night Queen]

Welllll it is like this:

• "If your character is snapping their head around in all directions, emote about it" (someone)
• " Forcing someone to "emote looks around" as they type all those commands is just adding unnecessary spam" (Halaster)

But then there's this! Don't do it if you are chasing someone??? Or during fights?

I'd have to say if someone was running that for combat or chase purposes, rather than to see what is around when they move into a new room, for instance, I would find it questionable.  I wouldn't consider it much different than a set target PlayerB;autobash type arrangement.

• "perfectly fine thing that you are allowed to use one. Just avoid spamming it 5 times per second" (Usiku on this page)

And sooo now we have a rule that only exists for people that read the forums and anyone else can pretend they didn't see it

- You are not allowed to use Look all if you are chasing another player character

- or spam it 5 times per second but that seems like it's saying don't spam it at all since no one can actually send it 5 times per second and I didn't, then it turns into a wavy line of "how much is too much" And yeah, people have posted about looking a lot with hidden people before yeah - if it's not allowed it should be firmly in the rules (or better yet a code solution like with Contact since it pretty much requires everyone to be watched to enforce Look, or a delay check but at that point you might as well just add a throttle to how much allowed to send the command anyway - short moments can change the direction/end of a character or a plot, but if a verdict on whether something was bad or not comes after IC actions that can't be undone it doesn't help as much - and dissuades people from playing sneaky characters or engaging in that kind of stuff when there's the likelihood people will just cheese it and not get in trouble while it can end the game for the other character - everyone needs to be under the same clear and fair rules basically)

- There's a bunch of stuff like this where some extra rules would clarify things cos I think everyone has their own mental image in their head of how things are done commands vs RP wise with stuff like this

I'm really happy that the cheesy aspects of Contact were removed to stop that but there's a lot of stuff like that left, another example is the grey area of using Contact names to check online/offline - or people who way people entire body descriptions when the body is covered from head to toe and they never met them before - Lots of little things like that would help with some kind of agreement and clarification so everyone is on the same page and no one can say they didn't know when something important and plot-affecting comes up and it doesn't help much to complain after someone already did something (one big aspect is that it can feel like other people are allowed to do stuff because no one's warned them not to yet, like with the old contact cheesing stuff)

[ShaLeah]

I don't understand this discussion.  I have had look aliases for 20 years and no one's ever said anything to me.  Laa [look all around] n e s w u d. Am I to understand we're now required to emote with each coded command?

Maybe I'm confused.

[Veselka]

It sounds like One Staffer had a bee in their bum, one time, with one player, and that is being conflated to "Staff Policy". However, other Staff on this thread have chimed in saying that isn't necessarily Staff Stance/Policy, and further clarify that it is fine as long as it isn't being abused (much as other code is treated).

End of story.

Staff could make a help file or update a help file or we could just move on.