Player Perspective on Magickers

[Veselka]

Decamerones quoth:

Hey guys,

It may be my general perspective on the matter, but it seems that there has been an upswing in the amount of magickers currently IC.

As such, I have noticed (both within the past and certainly the present) that there is a habit  to make excuses, in order to make a PC an exception to the documented mentality surrounding magicks. In certain cases I can relate to this as a player, because you enjoy RPing with someone. It's the, 'yes, I know they are a half-breed, rinther magicker but .. they were super nice to me, so I can trust them." approach. Admittedly, in the past my perspective has been, "Well, fuck it - you knew what you were doing when you picked the options." However, with the uptick, I am starting to wonder if that shouldn't always be the case.

So, thought it might be prudent to ask:

a) Is there any general consensus on what a commoners view towards magicks should be?
b) When is it OK to be a magicker's friend?
c) Is it ever OK to be friends / ally with a sorcerer / mind-bender?
d) How should people react to magickers in general?
e) Are there any consequences to just disregarding the above?

Thanks in advance!

Thought it would be an interesting thread to solicit player opinions as well.

As a player, when I play a mundane, I 9/10 will play a PC that is terribly frightened of magicking, magickers, rumors of magicking, and rumors of people being magickers. If I find out a close friend turns out to be a magicker, I don't consider them a friend any longer. After all, any sane person would disown someone who can sling curses at you and likely has in the past! This core deception reminds me of any intimate relationship where trust is breeched -- what else are they lying about and hiding? How could you ever trust them again?

I think there is a certain allure to magickers, and I find this when I play one. There is a synergy between the elements, and also some antipathy between them, that creates for a sort of meta-game within the game. The power structure of magick is obviously on a different playing field than mundane life -- things like food and water might be easily obtained, or crime can be performed without worrying about the authorities. Secrets might be discovered quite easily, or getaways might be made instantaneous. As it should be, with magick, the sky can be the limits sometimes. And for certain mundane folk, that can be appealing to be around, despite deep-seated fears and mistrust.

For example -- I think raiders out of Red Storm would be far more accepting (or at least willing to begrudgingly accept) an elementalist in their ranks or on the outskirts of their ranks than, say, a Northerner, or even an independent Southerner. There are alignments in a Red Stormer's belief structure that mirror magickers. They're typically outcasts from society, have no desire to cowtow to Allanak or Tuluk's supposed laws or belief structures, and would sometimes do what they could to spite them.

That example though, in my mind, should overwhelmingly be the exception. 1/10, if that. Most sane, rational people in Zalanthas would rightfully fear magick and want nothing to do with it, or with anyone who has even heard of it. It reminds me of Navajo Witchcraft by Clyde Kluckhohn, wherein he is a white outsider to a Navajo reservation inquiring with Navajo he encounters about 'witchcraft' in their tribe. He states there was great reticence for the Navajo he met to even acknowledge 'witchcraft' as he called it existed in the tribe, because knowing about it implied you were a practitioner of it, not to mention describing rituals or rumors of rituals.

In closing, I do think there has been a noticeable uptick of Magicking Acceptance, particularly outside of civilization centers. It seems a revolving plot-door in recent years has been 'Magick Cabal B is rising in the east. Who will stop these evil doers!', which is certainly fun once in a while, but if I were a newer player, I'd almost think it was the general storyline of the game world.

[Barsook]

In closing, I do think there has been a noticeable uptick of Magicking Acceptance, particularly outside of civilization centers. It seems a revolving plot-door in recent years has been 'Magick Cabal B is rising in the east. Who will stop these evil doers!', which is certainly fun once in a while, but if I were a newer player, I'd almost think it was the general storyline of the game world.

Agreed, it's getting old fast.

[Alesan]

Considering it feels like most of the high profile plotting that goes on seems to revolve around some kind of mage or magickal thing, it's not surprising that people feel the need to attach themselves to mage characters or be mage characters themselves to get included in it. It creates a very large temptation to ignore the part of the docs that say magickers are widely feared and mistrusted in favor of being included in some big shiny plot. Then there's the kind of player who feels like maybe they can be the exception and befriend a magicker, except there might be ten other players who are thinking the exact same thing, and then there are ten exceptions to the rule instead of just one.

And for those who roll into the game as a mage but don't want to be the social pariah they signed up to be... well, maybe don't play a mage. Is this an unpopular opinion? Maybe. But it's felt for a while now that mages are just too easy to be friends with.
I've seen threads pop up where people are asking for random curse mechanics to discourage being around mage characters, but I don't think that should be necessary. I think we should be working harder to enforce the setting we're supposed to be playing in, not depend on code to do it for us.

[Decameron]

I think my problem with cabals is they are typically lead by sorcerers. In my opinion Elementalist magickers should have the same sentiment towards sorcerers that mundanes have towards sorcerers for very clear reasons.

And yes, I am purposefully not making a distinction between the types here.

[triste]

I joked in another thread before this thread went up, but just my two cents as someone who often plays magickers.

Considering it feels like most of the high profile plotting that goes on seems to revolve around some kind of mage or magickal thing, it's not surprising that people feel the need to attach themselves to mage characters.

This, if anything, is annoying to me and something I've noticed as well. When someone posted recently about explosives code, now removed, it brought to mind that very rarely are mundane skillsets in strong demand. There's always some quest where a Templar "Needs a Whiran" for this and that, and far too few plots where a Templar needs "a good burglar," or a unit of troops. I've never had enough clout to know where these fancy plots come from, but whoever/whatever originates these would ideally have more room for mundane concepts.

And for those who roll into the game as a mage but don't want to be the social pariah they signed up to be... well, maybe don't play a mage. Is this an unpopular opinion? Maybe.

Good opinion to have, and this entire discussion IMO can be summed up like this:
- If you roleplay hating/fearing/ignoring [Magickers], you win!
- If your roleplaying accepting a [Magicker] because you are also a [Magicker] or other outcast, you win!
- If your character befriends some [Magicker] due to IG circumstances, you win the chance to be an outcast as well, which is kind of like losing!
- If your character befriends some [Magickers] and starts campaigning for [Magicker] Rights so that you can kiss your [Gicker] BF/GF in public, you will probably be executed and definitely lose the game!

I've never seen anything like the last bullet there in game, because generally we do honor the setting.

[Magickers] is bold and in brackets because you can replace it with literally any lower caste group in Allanak. The only difference is plot incentives make this problem more prevalent for Magickers than other groups, but otherwise it's the exact same situation.

And as Decameron just added, this dynamic not only exists between Magickers and Commoners, but Sorcerers and Magickers. The entire "problem" we are discussing here is actually the core of conflict in much of the game. You can enter that conflict in a way where you are poised to win, or poised to lose.

[Nao]

If you think someone is being too cozy with a magicker or a breed you can always accuse them of being one. There's clearly something wrong with you if you treat them like normal people.

[HortaCulture]

Our PC's should fear/hate/distrust magick. Most of the time. Magick is bad. It's bad.

I like to imagine just nightmare RL situations if I'm trying to get into the mood, Like REALLY hard. Go sit with my eyes closed and try and put myself there in these scenes and imagine what I'd feel like were this actually happening. The events vary based on my PC's individual history and background but they go something like this...

I'm in bed, a fireball explodes outside my window--HOLY SHIT
Is that someone out there-- just standing there and HE IS ON FIRE.
Did he look at me--
...Wait he's turning around.
OH MY GOD WHY IS HE COMING OVER HERE?

...And it should take a LOT to get even remotely past the idea that someone has the ability to do that, you don't know why or how.

[betweenford]

Tektolnes is a sorcerer-king and some people are okay with that. Or absolutely frightened and made to submit out of fear/whatever. (Southern)Templars also employ magick bestowed on them by their sorcerer-king. Luir's Outpost was built by one of the most infamous defilers.  End of the day some people are either culturally brainwashed, kowtowing to power, desiring power, employing this tactic called pragmatism, doing deals on the side for other sorts of personal gain etc. To the unwashed mashes, magick is magick and is reviled, some even make excuses that some of it is simply miracles. Some cultures have differing views and some people are even aware of the cultural exchange despite their own beliefs.

Obvs people aren't going to be walking around bragging about their mage friends or they're going to be killed or labeled as outcasts and freaks, and more often than not this is exactly what happens icly, even if isolated instances seem to say otherwise.

[Narf]

To offer a metagame response to this:

If your last character was cool with magick, your current character probably shouldn't be. You can play the exception as long as you don't /always/ play the exception.

[WarriorPoet]

If your character is cool with magick, that is cool with me, the player. Go for it. But be aware that there is a 99.99999% chance my character is going to avoid you and gossip about you for for being a gick sucker.

[Awentawa]

If someone who might not even be a witch talks to me about how they have a history of being friends with witches I will absolutely ICly shun them and make sure people know.

[Harrowhark]

[Tuannon]

The specifics vary, but for me being gemmed vs being a 'wild' witch are also factors in how my roles react to them.

I also like how if you don't immediatly say 'Piss off you horrible monster' or move away you are a Gem lover, often. People express mistrust and shunning in different ways. It's the same for racial lines too.

[Alesan]

I also like how if you don't immediatly say 'Piss off you horrible monster' or move away you are a Gem lover, often.

I've never actually seen this happen.

[number13]

The magic-wielders are the stars of the story. Everyone else is window dressing for the schemes of the ginkers. It's always been that way.

There have been a lot of suggestions over the decades on how to switch things around, some of them made by me. (an eternal favorite of my own suggestions is to make the Rinth into a magic-dead and psionics-dead zone.)  But in the end, if you want in on the really big plots, you have to be a ginker or be willing to work with ginkers.

Furthermore, in a player base as tiny as Armageddon's, can we really afford to say that particular PCs shouldn't interact? If you're the only elf in town who doesn't finger-wiggle, you either start loving wiggling or you RP solo.

I had a character in UnderTuluk who killed a ginker for being a dirty gink, and a decade later I still feel bad about ruining that player's fun.

[Veselka]

I particularly like Ginker and Gink.

[SpyGuy]

The magic-wielders are the stars of the story. Everyone else is window dressing for the schemes of the ginkers. It's always been that way.

There have been a lot of suggestions over the decades on how to switch things around, some of them made by me. (an eternal favorite of my own suggestions is to make the Rinth into a magic-dead and psionics-dead zone.)  But in the end, if you want in on the really big plots, you have to be a ginker or be willing to work with ginkers.

Furthermore, in a player base as tiny as Armageddon's, can we really afford to say that particular PCs shouldn't interact? If you're the only elf in town who doesn't finger-wiggle, you either start loving wiggling or you RP solo.

I had a character in UnderTuluk who killed a ginker for being a dirty gink, and a decade later I still feel bad about ruining that player's fun.

I disagree.  It's possible to be involved in big plots as a mundane who doesn't like magick.  Indeed, mundanes trying to fight magick users can be its own plot.   Now in any significantly large plot it's likely to involve magick on at least one side and you may need to grudgingly accept that templars will use magick or whatever, doesn't mean your PC has to like it.

Part of the problem is lots of people playing magickers and of course we play for RP and interaction.  If there are lots of gicks around you then you may feel compelled to accept it. You can also resist that and get all murder, corruption and betrayal on them.  I wouldn't feel bad about killing a magicker in the same way as I wouldn't feel bad about distrusting a rinther or ignoring a half elf in game.

Edit:  I feel like the perception that magickers are the 'stars of the show' is counterproductive.   It encourages embracing them to get involved with the big movers and shakers.  The more we each shun magickers then the more they become outcasts and side characters as the docs seem to imply most should be.   They're karma roles.  I trust the player of magickers to understand and accept that they're going to face difficulties if it becomes common knowledge they're a witch.

[Jihelu]

There's a lot of reasons to not outright hate magic users.
There are tribes that rely on them for spiritual reasons, protection, survival, etc.
In the city theres a whole lot less. I've  had a character born to magic users who hated magic and avoided it, for example.
There might be an argument that the fear of mages is an evolution of civilization and superstition.  I don't care enough to make it.
It seems that both sides are on some kind of extreme but I blame the fact it's hard to see people roleplay overtime in game, we just see snippets. It means the view I see is either 'Hello mage, let us become friends. Load me up with buff spells' or 'G-Go away baka I don't care you help me'.
I can safely say I'd be a lot more willing to be low-key buddies with a water mage if they came across me in the desert and brought me from -5 HP to max in a few words.  Even if internally I was still a bit hesitant you can bet your ass I'd be verbally friendly, whatever this mage has got I don't wanna lose out on and die.

[triste]

Part of the problem here is it feels like 1 out of 20 or even 1 out of 10 characters in game is a magick user. Anyone who has stats please correct me, but that's what it feels like. And it can be wearying automatically cutting 1 out 10 players and all their friends out of your plots.

Why do people with Karma keep playing magick users? Because Elves, Half-Giants, Muls and other characters are excluded from more interesting plots. Magickers not only can get involved in these plots, as mentioned, they are often integral to them.

I used to play half-giants a lot, it was a karma option that fit my roleplay style better (lol, I must be stupid). However, I learned that I am unable to get more karmz because I don't have leadership experience, and half-giants are, by the rules, not allowed to be leaders (I had a half-giant on track to be a leader in a way that was supported in game but staff literally retconned content so that my character couldn't lead, sorry broz, that glass cieling is bullet proof). Therefore, logically speaking, I cannot play half-giants if I want sweet karmz. I could play an elf, but I am not super into any of the open tribes right now (why was the Soh closed again?). What option does this leave for me? Gickers. Or just, not spending my karma or something.

There have been a lot of great ideas here recently about more options for spending karma and I hope staff considers these ideas. If we had stuff like that, we'd probably see less gickers and less whining.

I feel like people are appropriately shitty to gickers in game. It's too recent, but I have an absolutely comical story about a gicker of mine who was treated like complete and utter garbage and the way she met her end was fitting for a gick. But, again, when 10% or whatever of players are playing a gick because it's the best way to get involved in plots (and spend your fun karma), it gets wearying cutting 10-20% of the playerbase out of your plots just to avoid and scorn magick.

[SpyGuy]

I'd like to chime in that in some parts of the game world it can feel like a lot more than 10% sometimes.  This perception may be partly influenced by magicker PCs making longer lived PCs due to experience or wanting to keep their karma PC alive. I'd love to see stats.

Also side note: I don't want the players of magickers to feel criticized here on an OOC level.  Might hate you IC and wish you'd all die but as a player I've seen some really good RP from magicker PCs and plotlines form from it.  But what might be an interesting plot the first time can get tiring.

[Decameron]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56400.msg1055062.html#msg1055062

Just for reference, as I don't believe the original post included the response.

Shabago wrote:

a) Is there any general consensus on what a commoners view towards magicks should be?

Yes. And the docs reflect that. Severe mistrust, disgust, hatred, assumption of curses that rot off parts of your body if you're around them, etc, etc.

b) When is it OK to be a magicker's friend?

As a commoner? Never. Begrudging respect or a sense of being in-debt to them for killing some 'heathen' on the field for you as a Krathi, or a viv keeping you from bleeding to death. There better be a damn good reason and RP backing why you tolerate their presence. Tolerate being the keyword. Not friendship. You can respect the Krathi and worry you'll be the next marshmellow. You can feel indebted to the Viv and wonder if they actually laid a curse while healing you, etc.

c) Is it ever OK to be friends / ally with a sorcerer / mind-bender?

Absolutely, 100%, not. A Sorc is the literal embodiment of anti-life. No, preserver is no better then defiler. They are both insane monsters. A bender is hysterical to think of, since they will literally melt your brain and turn you into their puppet. - Is it feasible that in some way, some fashion that one of these two could /maybe/ convince a PC they're not so bad, or have a friendship with them? I'll say yes, it's possible, if SEVERE trust has been built up to explain not instantly wanting to run for your life or kill them. This grey-area exception, is just that - an exception. Doing so on one PC over five to ten years - Alright. Each PC? Yearly? Come on. No.

d) How should people react to magickers in general?

Same as one. Fear, distrust, etc.

e) Are there any consequences to just disregarding the above?

Should it be a trend, or lacking any real RP/realistic reasoning for the PC - then yes. If players purposefully go out of their way to ignore the docs, they clearly are showing they should not be in trusted roles that count on docs being followed. Things can (and have) ranged from world response where the "Cuddle buddy" is shunned from the game world - Direct threats the PC from those of involved or interested parties (House/Clan/Tribe), to a potential karma dock if blatant/repeated without any cause aside from "Spell me up bro."

[Harmless]

Removing trap and explosives is a true setback for the mundane plot-moving arsenal, but mundane poisons are still a solid and reliable way of enacting the sweeping death, and stealth is still extremely reliable when used right for escaping. It has gotten harder, though, with more barriers to good poison access, so I suppose it is losing appeal and magick is definitely more convenient as power comes mostly from practice and partially from a tremendous amount of effort for certain components but not as difficult as the poisons. I would love to have a kind of anti-magicker movement of trying to develop better war technology as a kind of overarching plot to counter magickers, which might freshen up the interest in being mundane again for a variety of reasons.

As for how to play as or not as a magicker, I play magickers often and mundanes too. I do not even recall the last time I befriended even the most benign type of magicker as a mundane.I think I never have even. As a magicker I am always either living in shame or fear or distrust of the non cursed, and have never deviated from that. I do not mind the isolation of being different. It fits my playstyle fine, and the antagonism that comes from it is fun and sparks interest in my character's story.

When I am mundane, I avoid magick and can often get through IC years without interacting with it at all, but sometimes megaplots force it and more interestingly, tiny doses may happen that can occasionally be missed ICly which is a kudos to the ability of most magicker players to be subtle and respect the documentation.

As a player of 10+ years, I do not see much of a problem with anything, and I have played a lot in the pre Tuluk closing era and think I would know.

Maybe the problem is that people are too often discussing and bringing up magick, casually even. Mundane or not, which is counter to what I think a true fear should breed, which is silence about the unknown, the different, the dangerous.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think I've changed my opinions on magick users. It used to be that I thought they were broken and conceptually they incentivize hiding and turtling until you feel strong enough to "manifest". Now I feel like there are a small few magick players who ruin it for the whole. My perspective is niche, but the characters who won't even interact with their own clan because they're too busy beefing up add nothing to the game and are boring to be around when you stumble on them. Empty calories.

That said, I've hung around a handful of magick users lately who are a joy to be around and treat it properly, making RP great. Maybe I've lucked out, though?

[triste]

I feel like the only kudoses I have gotten recently are for my gickers so hopefully I fall into gotdamnmiracle's latter category rather than the ruining the game category.

I joked to myself that I must good at roleplaying this shit because I often get involved in social groups that have some reason to hate me despite liking me for other reasons. I have a bunch or marxist queer friends but they hate me for being a coder. I have jock dude friends, but they laugh at me for being queer. I have a bunch of coder friends, but they hate me when I talk about discrimination in our field. It is less possible to be friends with someone "outside your group" on Zalanthas but when it happens on earth it can give you a vague idea how to deal with it in game. Some of my friends deal with my annoying liminal status by ignoring me for months and only remembering me when they feel like they have been briefly shunned by their main groups. Other friends hang out with me, but criticise me for "what I do" regularly. The main reason I bothered to post this was about three weeks ago one of my bffs sent me the picture of the back of a book calling Machine Learning racist and evil and nothing else, I guess just to say, "I love you, but you work in EVIL BLACK MAGIC." I told him how I got kudos early in my career for /removing/ race from a machine learning algorithm used in West Virginia's school district but he was COMPLETELY DEAF to my protests. He started going into just the evils of tech etc in general. This friend of mine is a Marxist, from day one of our relationship he has done this to me, but wow, we are still friends. If any of my friendships sums up the feeling of "a mundane befriending a gick" it is this. And I don't mind it, I essentially have no choice but to tolerate it.

So if I had to boil this bullshit down:
- It's fine to be friends with a gemmed if you knew them before they were gemmed.
- If you do befriend a gick, there /has/ to be tension there. Either you hang out with them secretively, or actively scorn and challenge them even when you do, or get scared of them sometimes and avoid them, etc
- the ONLY way to roleplay this wrong is to campaign for gicker rights like we live in a modern egalitarian society. And I have /never/ seen anyone do that in game. Because frankly in my lame example above gickers are more like "scary person with hard to understand powers" than an "oppressed minority."

The only "true friend" a gicker might hope to find is in another gicker of the same social class, but when that leaves such a small subset of people (1-4 players in game) those friendships often fail just due to a personality mismatch. And thus the gick must settle for the tortured kind of relationships above.

* my phone constantly trying to auto correct gicking to fucking in the process of this post was appropriate.

[triste]

Just to TLDR that: if you think "it is only valid for gicks to befriend other gicks" you are [1] ignoring the social reality of people in castes like this and [2] being unintentionally shitty to those players by making them out to be bad roleplayers when they are not, and you are just trying to unrealistically limit what they can do with your definition of "good roleplay" that has nothing to do with the reality of social interaction.

Conflict makes good roleplay, and conflict can be subtle, internalized and even exist among friends.

[SpyGuy]

Just to TLDR that: if you think "it is only valid for gicks to befriend other gicks" you are [1] ignoring the social reality of people in castes like this and [2] being shitty to those players by unrealistically limiting what they can do with your definition of "good roleplay" that has nothing to do with the reality of social interaction.

Conflict makes good roleplay, and conflict can be subtle and internalized.

I reread your post before replying and don't think we're in total disagreement but posting my take anyways:

If you're openly friends with known magickers then you're playing against the docs and should suffer IC consequences.  This goes x100 for sorcerers.  By consequences I don't mean instant death.  Could be anything from side eye at the bar to distrust to outright hostility.   I'd also point out it's fine to be an exception but doing so too much begins to erode the setting. To address your points:

[1]. Gicks aren't just people with a different job or beliefs.  They have control over the elements of nature.  Your average commoner should fear them, their curses, etc.
[2]  The player playing the magicker chose to play a magicker.  They also chose to manifest.  And then they failed to keep it secret.   It's a karma role, they should understand it's severely limited and they will be treated as subhuman by a significant portion of the population.  There are still many RP interaction opportunities that don't involve being friends.

I don't think it's bad RP to be some sort of friends with a magicker (though that should be rare imho). I think it's bad RP to be casual about magick.  With the current subclasses you might find your best buddy is suddenly a gick.  Most of the virtual world and PCs would probably shun those former friends. A well RPed response who didn't immediately shun them should have some justification for why they didn't shun them and should still treat it as a big deal.  Going 'Oh cool, so you can make me stronger?' would be bad RP in this setting.  And if someone is RPing being friends with a mage then they should be prepared to navigate being seen as a gick lover.

[Lizzie]

I think it's up to players who've been around awhile to set the example for the newer folks. There are times when a mundane NEEDS to deal civilly with a mage. At those times, it's absolutely appropriate to do so. Examples of those times:

1. a templar orders you to do so.
2. you're an Oash aide and your Lord Oash orders you to at least tolerate his Mage Circle.
3. You're in the Byn, and your Sergeant has accepted a contract to escort some gemmed from point A to point B.
4. You're a bounty hunger who sometimes has to capture/kill rogue mages. So you make "contacts" with the gemmed or even other rogues you keep in your pocket. You might not like it at all, but business is business.

Those are times when it's absolutely appropriate, and even necessary, to be tolerant (to a point) and civil to mages.

The rest of the time, it depends on who YOU are playing, what kind of influence the mage has with "important people" you don't want to piss off, and the circumstances of the situation. And most importantly - what the mage is DOING at the time of the situation. If she's just sitting at the bar quietly drinking her ale? Maybe a "look." Maybe you shift your seat a few stools further away. Maybe a quiet mumble to yourself. Or maybe you'll ask the bartender for a cup to go and you leave. Are they talking about how they fireballed up a mek last week and how it was great to bring back some perfectly grilled mek steak without needing a cookfire? That's when you can start making actual comments, being less subtle about your loathing, cringe away in fear, or contact your pal Lady Templar Tinglebutt to let her know her pet gemmer is bragging about magicks again in the bar.  or even wish up and let them know that currently, the bartender is allowing this conversation to continue. Maybe a staffer will intervene, if available and interested.

Sometimes commoners have to deal with the mages, whether they like it or not. But unless you know you can best them AND their handler (if they have one), it might be more prudent to grit your teeth, and begrudgingly not turn the moment into a catastrophe.  If you know you can best them and their handler, then absolutely smack the shit out of that filthy mage if your character would!

Just remember that Amos sitting a few stools away might decide that the gemmer's blood on YOUR fists means he'd better stay away from you, lest the horrible magicks are contagious.

[triste]

I don't think it's bad RP to be some sort of friends with a magicker (though that should be rare imho). I think it's bad RP to be casual about magick

Cool, then we are in total agreement. That was my thesis.

I literally you said you can have a friendship, but it has to be tortured, secretive, etc.

Trying to understand why you think we are in total disagreement, you might have just been set off by my mention of real life friendships, but saying that was a completely moot and irrelevant point would be like trying to debate language code but having some arbitrary rule that no one could mention the real life discipline of linguistics while doing so (even though such an exercise would only be beneficial and illuminating).

[triste]

Those are times when it's absolutely appropriate, and even necessary, to be tolerant (to a point) and civil to mages.

The rest of the time, it depends on who YOU are playing, what kind of influence the mage has with "important people" you don't want to piss off, and the circumstances of the situation.

I think this is right and it fits into all of our points, which is the correct position, "Mages have frightening power that is hard for mundanes to understand." If people keep this in mind, wow, the roleplay works out, and works out in a way where people can interact and have great scenes.

I am going to briefly, and non-seriously double down on the previous analogy I made that SpyGuy disagreed with, but the more you dig into it, it really does prove to be completely fucking apt. There is not a single coder on planet earth who has a flawless reputation, except for a small handful who I will discuss at the end:

Linus Torvaldis - Invented systems that gave birth to our modern era, but huge asshole.
Ada Lovelace - Brilliant an innovative, but constantly challenged in her time and ended up being mentally ill in the same ways as her dad.
Alan Turing - Great coder, but a pervy gay, should probs sterilize him [according to the government]!
Carlo Acutis - Literally deified as a saint, but to huge criticism from non coders and coders alike.
Bill Gates - Okay coder, allegedly an intellectual property thief and idiot at socializing
Steve Jobs - Brilliant innovator, but huge asshole.
Elon Musk - Takes existing innovations and brings them to market, but huge asshole.

Here's the kicker. Every human being on earth is complex, and sometimes an asshole, sometimes socially awkward. But the power and inscrutability of what these people do makes them scary, hard to understand, hatable, etc.

There are huge swathes of populations who will talk about these people, well, like evil magicians. Other coders might be able to see them more realistically, but other coders also deal with the same reputation of being bad for X, Y, and Z reasons. Where does this fear come from? The power granted by their abilities.

I am just struggling to think of a coder with a good reputation, and damn, here's the exception: those chicks who worked for NASA back in the day when it was hard to, and they conducted themselves like good little gemmed, being treated like shit and never speaking up. How many people can individually remember these women's names? Few.
They were coders who helped America win the space race, did it under oppression yet begrudging acceptance of their abilities [these women were literally called "Computers" as people and as their job title]. In a way this is a beautiful but heartbreaking analogy for the gicker well played.

Thankfully I think we are on point in game and very few times has there been "Randy, that gick everyone just loves!" Even though in that other thread it looks like there was some whiran named Hoof or something like that. I didn't know this character and I shouldn't shit talk though and I hope anyone who posts in that thread saying "I loved this gicker!" posts because their interactions were setting appropriate and not because they were like, warped around for free by a cool Whiran.

The one time I met a gicker with a unilaterally well liked reputation in game and going to parties and such, he died to a jealous gicker who thought what he was doing was wrong [it was].

Again. There is only one way to roleplay with a gick wrongly, and that is to unequivocally like them and sympathize them. Even if a gick saves your life -- you get split in half by a Mekillot and a Vivaduan puts you back together -- your skin should always crawl wondering what exactly it is that they did to you and fearing you might have some latent illness as a result, or what have you.

[Lizzie]

Triste you need to stop comparing "Zalanthan humanoids' reaction to the existence of mages" to real world coders or any other real-world people. You really need to just not do that. It doesn't clarify anything. It doesn't explain anything about the game. All it does, is give people an "excuse" to bring their real-world opinions about "other" into the game, where it just flat out doesn't belong.

Armageddon is a fantasy world, taking place on a non-existent planet, with species that don't exist in the actual world. The world itself is a vast desert wasteland as the direct result of a power that some people in the world still possess, to some degree or another. That alone should be sufficient for any player to wrap their minds around the fact that they *should* loathe, hate, fear, distrust, vilify, or otherwise feel negatively about mages and the magicks they possess.

How a player will roleplay this loathing, hatred, distrust, fear, vilification, or negative feelings about magicks is up to the roleplayer. But their character - with VERY few, very specifically documented exceptions (in very specific, clans) - will have that approach to some extent or another.

If you find yourself playing a character that's starting to be "friends" with a mage, then there SHOULD be that tickle in the back of your character's mind that knows damned well their friendship is WRONG, dirty, sullied, tainted, contaminated.  And you should absolutely EXPECT that other characters who learn of this friendship would react accordingly.

[Brytta Léofa]

Triste you need to stop comparing "Zalanthan humanoids' reaction to the existence of mages" to real world coders or any other real-world people. You really need to just not do that. It doesn't clarify anything. It doesn't explain anything about the game. All it does, is give people an "excuse" to bring their real-world opinions about "other" into the game, where it just flat out doesn't belong.

I find Triste's examples very helpful. There are probably several different approaches that we-the-players use to generate roleplay: for Lizzie, it seems important to understand the Arm world in your head in a way that's independent of the real world; I understand things much better by analogy to real life and society (or cultural tropes, to be fair).

The great thing about real life analogy is that real life is vastly detailed and contains multi-layered strife and prejudice. It's hard for me to reason about prejudice and hatred; it's much easier to import some of those feelings from elsewhere. (Is this method acting?) So, for instance, my current magicker story card (rather cruder than triste's examples) is: "we hired an ersatz Nazi and the boss told us to stop being assholes to him." It's pretty easy for me to understand why I continue to think "this dude is deeply not okay" and tell other people that, even if we can have civil interactions and he has many personal charms and has not actually fireballed me.

[WarriorPoet]

RAT: Ersatz Nazi would be a sweet name for a punk album.

[Veselka]

While I don't think triste's analogies work exactly (magick /= coding prowess), finding real life analogies helps me (and others) break down the differences in Zalanthas/ArmageddonMUD's fantastical approach to ostensibly very real life problems and cultural stigmas.

It is difficult when first playing the game to understand why magick, this awesome power, is so reviled. But! Through playing the game, around more veteran players, and understanding the lore and history (while also reading some of the Dark Sun material that it was inspired from) I could, after some time, understand where the hatred and loathing and mistrust came from.

I don't expect everyone to get it 100% of the time. Particularly when it is in your [insert PC]'s life cycle and social group. It can sometimes be messy and complicated. But the 'tickle in the back of the throat' feeling that Lizzie mentions is accurate.

What I think should be avoided is the mindset that a player can fall into -- that most of their PCs will have some level of tolerance for magick users, given the right circumstances. It should be the opposite -- Most of the time your PCs should have no level of tolerance for magick users, and there can be very rare exceptions.

I can't help but wonder if the same [tribal/independent/etc] PC that touts that their friends are cool even though they are magickers are played by the same person or persons. These PCs (and players) shouldn't be surprised when they are suddenly lumped into the same category as their magicker friends, that is documentation working as intended, IMHO.