Make Sorcerers Great Again (And Elementalists)

[Kyviantre]

I'd rather not have forced coded ill effects - sometimes as a magicker it is hard enough to find RP, and that would hurt not only cuddling-a-secret-magicker-lover RP, but also people RPing appropriately but including the magicker in it because people appreciate that the magicker has a player behind it who is playing a game for RP, even if that RP is fear and loathing.

What I'd like is the addition of curse spells for magickers.  Higher than cantrip, lower than true spells.  Ideally I'd prefer a selection given out to all with some variation based on element (with some element-less), but a randomiser could work.

Things like having the person's mouth fill with the Zalanthan version of toads.  Version of the drunk code, muteism, blindness, echos of XYZ (similar to the spice timer), hearing snatches of music, deafness, inability to Way, zero control over the Way so you keep connecting to random minds, seeing shadows, hearing dripping water a la chinese water torture, getting a splinter you can't find, getting cramp, getting crotch rot, getting krath's touch, feeling itchy, thinking your boots are shrinking, thinking your hands are shrinking, accidental language problems like coprolalia or the language code replacing the occasional word with 'um' or 'er' like you can't remember words, the sudden gossip knowledge that one of your friend's aunt's cousin-in-law's whore's got cursed by a magicker, tummy rumbles, stomach ache, tooth ache, back ache, feeling more humidity, feeling less humidity, static charges, dizziness, smelling belshun fruit wherever you go, feeling like everyone is staring, feeling like you're being ignored, piloerection of hair (not for dwarves), blah blah blah, the list goes on!

Basically give magickers the ability to drop one curse per X time, for mana cost, to give flesh to the paranoia that magickers are full of curses.  Obviously it can all be explained away by spice, drinking, dehydration, hunger, lack of sleep, general disease of the gen pop, and so on, but there can be a niggling doubt.  I'd also say it wouldn't be 'cast', just a silent skill (toggle like scan?), and only people in the room can get tagged with bad effects...to avoid some griefer going nuts across the Known with it.  On second thoughts...I'd like it to be a silent toggled skill with a slow mana drain...when you run out of mana, it toggles off and you have to wait for your mana to return to normal (add a small delay to avoid people keeping it on most of the time.

Also, a delay before effects start, so you can't sniff out the unmanifested.

Least, that is how I'd approach that...add some mystery!

[Lotion]

The gicks probably have spells that can be considered curses already.

This disease thing seems unneeded because a lot of that is superstition anyways.

[Alesan]

Maybe people should actually police themselves so we don't have to make up coded reasons to avoid mage characters. If you are a player whose characters routinely are okay with mages, stop doing it. Play someone who actually fears them. Stop saying we need more powerful mages in order to justify fearing them. By the sounds of things, that's not likely to happen anyway.

If more people were playing by documentation regarding mage characters, we would not be having that particular discussion.

It would also help if it didn't feel like every other character is a potential secret mage, but since you can't stop people from playing what they enjoy, that's probably a moot point.

Just stop playing like mages are nothing to fear and start playing by the documentation without demanding they become more powerful to justify doing so.

[triste]

Maybe people should actually police themselves so we don't have to make up coded reasons to avoid mage characters. If you are a player whose characters routinely are okay with mages, stop doing it. Play someone who actually fears them. Stop saying we need more powerful mages in order to justify fearing them. By the sounds of things, that's not likely to happen anyway.

If more people were playing by documentation regarding mage characters, we would not be having that particular discussion.

It would also help if it didn't feel like every other character is a potential secret mage, but since you can't stop people from playing what they enjoy, that's probably a moot point.

Just stop playing like mages are nothing to fear and start playing by the documentation without demanding they become more powerful to justify doing so.

This, all of it.

And because I believe in carrots more than sticks:
Kudos those mages who do inspire dread, I know some of you have!
Kudos the mundanes who accurately portray dread of magick, I know I do!

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I'd also say Kudos to mundanes who inspire dread, and others who respond appropriately.   

[triste]

I'd also say Kudos to mundanes who inspire dread, and others who respond appropriately.   

Hahah, yes, off topic, but certainly kudos them too.

[Riev]

The gicks probably have spells that can be considered curses already.

This disease thing seems unneeded because a lot of that is superstition anyways.

One problem with this is that mages cannot cast spells inside cities without coded repercussions. So even if they do have curse-like spells, the attempt to cast them will get them killed immediately.

I think the suggestion was a way to force an echo on someone, via a spell-like ability that costs mana, that doesn't immediately trigger "kill them now" crime-code.

[Kyviantre]

The gicks probably have spells that can be considered curses already.

This disease thing seems unneeded because a lot of that is superstition anyways.

One problem with this is that mages cannot cast spells inside cities without coded repercussions. So even if they do have curse-like spells, the attempt to cast them will get them killed immediately.

I think the suggestion was a way to force an echo on someone, via a spell-like ability that costs mana, that doesn't immediately trigger "kill them now" crime-code.

Thank you, it was.

Basically the idea was a magicker toggles 'curse' on (like scan, listen), and goes and sits in the Gaj at the bar.  The curse costs, say, 1mana per minute and that 1mana is drained for an hour (similar to spice addiction code).  Everyone in the bar gets a 1% chance per minute to get tagged as 'cursed', and when cursed a 30-180 minute timer starts.  When the timer is up, they get flagged as 'cursed' under stat affects, and they start receiving echos from a randomised curse (as per list).

No casting required, but there is a penalty to the magicker to prevent insane griefing, and a timer element to avoid people being able to instantly guild-sniff magickers.  You could remove the timer if a gem was present, I just don't want to hurt unmanifested magickers using it, and having people slowly realise that something just ain't kosher with Talia as they always get queezy or things break a lot more after spending time with her.  So suspicions but no proof.

Useful for unmanifested looking for a story other than 'templar A assumes you are a rogue and kills you' by opening it up to other mundanes.  Useful for rogues.  And doubly useful for gemmed mages to subtly seed revulsion and paranoia about them.

Happy to let touching metal be a way to cure it.  Using a Vivaduan (do you want to risk curing a curse with potentially getting another?), and other magickers (rogue, gemmed, sorc) being immune.

I wouldn't give the toggle to sorcs.  I see it more as a problem with being part of an element, not learning stuff.

A nice little insidious way for (especially city-dwelling and gemmer) magickers to live up to the paranoia.

Obviously nothing should be easily point-at-able.  It could just be poor luck, exhaustion, disease, malnutrition, fleas or sleeping around...and the curses shouldn't last that long.  2 rl hours seems plenty.  Enough to encourage people to treat known magickers with a bit more disgust without making things unplayable.

Or at least...that is how I would do it.  You are still relying on people RPing appropriately, but like spice and drinking, it can help keep that disgust Vs utility of having magickers around a bit more balanced.

[Brokkr]

I do not agree that say fighter is better then warrior...

Interested to hear why this is.  Like the OP topic of magick classes, a lot depends on one's opinion of what they want in a class.  Or opinion on what types of play one is interested in.  If you are only interested in combat potential and never playing a noble aide, some of the classes will look non-optimal, to be sure.  But if the goal was to be a good aide, rather than combat, that list might get flipped.  For the heavy combat classes (especially Raider), for instance, lots of folks wanted skinning added to the skillset, but the idea was that they wouldn't have "economic" skills that would allow them to make a living hunting, vs something like a scout.

To be clear, here is a summary of the changes between warrior and fighter (it is more than just advanced weapons and skinning):

Fighter does not have the following 7 skills Warrior has:  5 Advanced weapon skills, skinning, fletchery
Fighter has the following 7 skills that Warrior does not have:  Listen, Threaten, Alcohol tolerance, pain tolerance, armor repair, hack, riposte
Fighter has 18 shared skills that it starts at a higher level at, 4 that it starts at the same level at,  and 2 at a lower level than Warrior.
Fighter has 12 shared skills that it caps at a higher level at, and 12 that it caps at the same level at, compared to Warrior.

Fighter has one hidden ability that it is slightly worse at than Warrior.
Fighter learns offense, defense and weapon skills more quickly than Warrior.
Fighter starts with higher offense and defense than Warrior.
Stats are hard to quantify, as Fighter does not get the exact same stat bumps as Warrior, but if measured by net stat gain is better.

[Riev]

Fix riposte to work on more than just the direct enemy, making Fighter an absolute terror to engage even in a group scenario (but will drain their stamina so much more).

Give a reason for a Fighter to explore the piercing or bludgeoning lines, since they have hack and riposte. Why would they ever want to work on the other weapon skills, other than "for defense"?

Other than those two points, I sort of enjoy fighter for a PvE vs Humanoid perspective.

[Lotion]

I can't wait to roll up some touched when I get a karma and emote about splashing water on people and telling them that they are cursed to show that all this coded cursing nonsense is a waste of time. I'll whisper to myself while rubbing my gem and staring at them and it doesn't matter if they are cursed because they will believe that they are.

[Hauwke]

I can't wait to roll up some touched when I get a karma and emote about splashing water on people and telling them that they are cursed to show that all this coded cursing nonsense is a waste of time.

Your guy is going to be Templar'd so very quickly if you go around doing that.

[Halcyon]

I do not agree that say fighter is better then warrior...

Interested to hear why this is. 

Loss of the branched weapons and the skinning skill.  Also, starting with a higher base O with a faster rise rate is a detriment to a "hardcore" player.

That said, I like the fighter class.   Its just not a powerful choice in the new meta.

[X-D]

Well Brokkr...and others. I have not exactly said that anything is actually "bad" I have said, I do not like them. For instance..Stalker, anemic in any type of combat, specially PVP...BUT, exceptional at survival. Still, I do not like the class and to many the reason will seem odd...they simply have too many skills and are not good enough at most of them.

Of the magick subs (I have tried)....2 of the 3 suck, the third is...meh OK...of the other two, splitting off subs using spells that either should have been out of the game ages ago or using spells that are only really maybe slightly useful when combined with other spells that the legacy mages get but the subs do not was a mistake.

As to the entire fighter verses warrior....

Fighter does not have the following 7 skills Warrior has:  5 Advanced weapon skills, skinning, fletchery....The weapon skills, I give you that one, but the lack of usefulness there is the fault of staff anyway so...yeah...Skinning...HIGHLY useful and worth trading Listen, threaten, armor repair, hack, riposte for alone. Fletchery is also worth trading all of them.
Fighter has the following 7 skills that Warrior does not have:  Listen, Threaten, Alcohol tolerance, pain tolerance, armor repair, hack, riposte...Listen at worthless level and only very small areas of usefulness to begin with...and Um, your a fighter not a spy...threaten VERY limited usefulness...Tolerance...who cares...pain tol, that's fine, armor repair...flavor skill at best...Hack/riposte essentially exist just for this class(Or the "new" classes) and did not exist for the legacy class so moot.
Fighter has 18 shared skills that it starts at a higher level at, 4 that it starts at the same level at,  and 2 at a lower level than Warrior. These differences are not enough to matter.
Fighter has 12 shared skills that it caps at a higher level at, and 12 that it caps at the same level at, compared to Warrior. Same as line before. 5% difference in something that almost nobody gets to on the lower level?

Fighter has one hidden ability that it is slightly worse at than Warrior.
Fighter learns offense, defense and weapon skills more quickly than Warrior. This is actually a BAD thing.
Fighter starts with higher offense and defense than Warrior. This is also a BAD thing. Both of these mean that it is even harder for a fighter to get to even warrior level skills...so...Um, yeah.
Stats are hard to quantify, as Fighter does not get the exact same stat bumps as Warrior, but if measured by net stat gain is better. Give you that one...though I do not think it is big enough to matter much.

The short of it is, Does fighter have higher possible maxes...Yes...though much harder to get there so...Meh. Might as well not be the case.

They do lose support skills that actually matter, forcing people to either choose a support sub or make sure they are clanned...this in fact lowers possible power DRASTICALLY compared to a warrior. And these lost support skills are filled with fluff skills that are essentially worthless or can easily be done without anyway in order to make the skill tree look pretty. The same applies to the other two heavy combat classes. So, In terms of absolute power and versatility the warrior WAY over shadows fighter. Not to mention, one of the VERY strong skills that warrior got to master that nobody does now is Subdue...yet another thing tradable for many of these fighter fluff skills.

[perfecto]

Ayep stalker is a feeble combatant even on the best of days, also had fighters that could wreck their own byn captain but crumple against the first gith they passed?

As for the elements (not willing to look back through the masses of this thread) Is the "pick two magick subguilds thing ever going to happen?  Cause that might just make them great again.

[Harmless]

I am all for more aesthetic only 'marks' of magick that last days or weeks, like that sweet sweet smell of spice lingering on the skin.

I am all for cantrips that do not result in crimcode that magickers could use to spook or fool others into thinking they have either been enhanced or cursed.

[Fredd]

I think the full mage guild's should be subclasses. It would make sense on most levels.

Will it make them very strong and dangerous? Yes, they are supposed to be.

[Doublepalli]

Yeah no. Have you ever tried to kill an elf miscreant/whiran tempest? It's brutal.

We don't need to give them more power. A player that knows their guild and their sub-mage-class will dominate in whatever avenue they wish. Same goes for a full guild + a sorceror branch.

I'm all for a full guild sorceror returning. The variants just don't make sense.

A full guild mundane + a full guild mage? No thanks. We don't need that.

[Brokkr]

Fighter learns offense, defense and weapon skills more quickly than Warrior. This is actually a BAD thing.
Fighter starts with higher offense and defense than Warrior. This is also a BAD thing. Both of these mean that it is even harder for a fighter to get to even warrior level skills...so...Um, yeah.

I'm assuming you mean harder to raise weapon skills.  No, actually it doesn't.  It should be marginally easier to raise weapon skills, and the plateau should be slightly higher.

They do lose support skills that actually matter, forcing people to either choose a support sub or make sure they are clanned...this in fact lowers possible power DRASTICALLY compared to a warrior. And these lost support skills are filled with fluff skills that are essentially worthless or can easily be done without anyway in order to make the skill tree look pretty.

I mean, no disagreement.  But understand that was intentional.  And if a Fighter is typically more clan based, that is where the usefulness of listen comes in, meant less as spy and more anti-boredom.  It was part of creating trade-offs where if those are important to you, you probably want to be a scout, or you need a subclass.

The same applies to the other two heavy combat classes. So, In terms of absolute power and versatility the warrior WAY over shadows fighter.

In terms of versatility, I wouldn't say "WAY" but yes, it did.  In terms of absolute power, that assessment seems to ignore everything I posted.  Or is based on some incorrect assumptions about offense/defense/weapon gain.

Not to mention, one of the VERY strong skills that warrior got to master that nobody does now is Subdue...yet another thing tradable for many of these fighter fluff skills.

Warrior did not get subdue to master.  Fighter has exactly the same starting and max subdue skill levels that warrior did.  Master subdue was only possible for certain templars.

[X-D]

I'm assuming you mean harder to raise weapon skills.  No, actually it doesn't.  It should be marginally easier to raise weapon skills, and the plateau should be slightly higher

I have not yet seen that to be the case...my last legacy warrior was never even remotely threatened by any of the new heavy classes in spar or otherwise. But I am willing to chalk that up to people being new to them.

I mean, no disagreement.  But understand that was intentional.  And if a Fighter is typically more clan based, that is where the usefulness of listen comes in, meant less as spy and more anti-boredom.  It was part of creating trade-offs where if those are important to you, you probably want to be a scout, or you need a subclass.

Oh, I know it ALL was intentional. My issue is I cannot decide if the stated reasons behind them are blowing smoke or legit if misguided...I tend to lean towards smoke...hard to say. I tend to think you have managed to bamboozle the players with large shiny new skill lists while making every class and subclass inherently weaker....Back to the Syndrome quote again.

In terms of versatility, I wouldn't say "WAY" but yes, it did.  In terms of absolute power, that assessment seems to ignore everything I posted.  Or is based on some incorrect assumptions about offense/defense/weapon gain.

Talking of this would mean us coming to an agreement on what we define as power...I am willing to table it as I believe it is unlikely we would ever agree.

And...Listen? Come now, who would trade crap max listen for skinning? And to help on boredom...Meh, I would trade listen for fletchery if that was the case...something to do AND can make drinking money or ammo to take potshots at things...not worth killing them because I cannot skin them. See this is a point I simply do not believe you on. You state you did it to make them want to depend on clans or other PCs more...I believe it is to cause most people to spend that subclass on support rather then power. And on the other side, should they choose "power" Then they will take a support main.

Anyway, I do not like them, I prefer the stand-alone best at what I do balance method. The only new class that I think fits this is miscreant since it FINALLY is a real thief instead of the horrid anemic pick pocket, burgler of the past. Do we have a class as good as assassin at BEING assassin...No, in fact the assassin/protector FAR outshines any current combo. How about ranger...No, in fact a legacy ranger with no sub at all is better then any current class combo. AND...all of them were powerhouses IN the place they were SUPPOSED to be. Warriors were the jack of all trades...could at least survive pretty much doing anything anywhere and were the only class who could walk happily into overwhelming combat odds and walk over a pile of bodies on the way out. Ranger, I am the GOD of the wilderness...nobody has that now...not ANY combo. Hell, even merchant was better...I CAN MAKE ANYTHING.....MOOHAHAHAHAHAHA...And have a bazillion coins and everybody loves me...political power!!!!

This has...for the most part been lost and I for one am willing to say that it is a LOSS.

[Hauwke]

I played a HG warrior for an entire year, the new classes were dropping toward the end of the lifespan of that PC.

It was EXTREMELY obvious which characters were heavy combat by the end. They gained such a stupid amount of combat skill, perhaps not weapon skill but still, that they can and would routinely be better by a large margin. It was very, very noticable that warrior just is not as good at straight forward combat as a raider or fighter is.

[ShaLeah]

#bringbackrealmagicks?
I might come out of retirement for THAT one!

[wizturbo]

I'm not really active anymore, but I will say that the efforts to "balance" the game are doing more harm than good.  The balance in this game came from stigma of magick, karma system, time investment and more than anything the permadeath nature of the game.  It's ok to have classes that are potentially really good at many things, or potentially superpowers when it comes to sorcery or high karma full elementalists.  That potential made them fun in the rare cases they were able to survive long enough to achieve their full strength.

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the new options.  It just feels like one step, two steps back, when options I already loved are eliminated.

My two cents on this... run an experiment.  Add a couple legacy options back into the game, see if players return or retention improves.  Choose one or two full guild elementalist options and evaluate the impact after a few months.  If it was positive, consider opening up more.  If it wasn't positive, rotate them out again.  Could consider the same for the old school mundane classes too, add a karma restriction if there was a power problem with them (Rangers come to mind).

[th3kaiser]

Also not really playing and I don't disagree. That's partly how I used to describe classes in the game to people, the lack of coded balance was a draw for me and them, not a bad thing. I always thought we did a social balance kinda thing. No idea when we shifted mindsets on this but balancing everything just bums me out and is absolutely one of the reasons my playtime has tapered off.

[Fredd]

Also not really playing and I don't disagree. That's partly how I used to describe classes in the game to people, the lack of coded balance was a draw for me and them, not a bad thing. I always thought we did a social balance kinda thing. No idea when we shifted mindsets on this but balancing everything just bums me out and is absolutely one of the reasons my playtime has tapered off.

I came back after a break, so that's where my opinion comes from.

There are a few new classes that feel pointless, codedly. Especially since we have a class and a subclass. If I want a fighty type that crafts I could make a ranger/warrior+ a crafting subguild or in modern terms, A Fighter or Raider + the exact same subguilds. The old Guilds weren't unbalanced, they each excelled at what they did, and each had a niche. So they felt unique. Why would I take something like Adventurer when I could just take a Raider+Weaponsmith. Also, where is this person Aventuring with only Journyman weapon skills?

And mentioning Balance. People slept on the strength of the old Pickpocket class, complaining it didn't have hide. There's a reason it didn't have hide, and that was because it had Master Steal. I used to LOVE the Burglar class. Jack of all trades, master of getting killed in apartments. With master hide, and advanced steal, I could steal your weapons from you while you sat at the bar. If I failed, you wouldn't know it was me, as I would only get a partial failure, why? Because being hidden makes certain things, like Backstab and steal, easier. Why am I mentioning this? Because Miscreant has both, Master Hide, and Master Steal.

Soldier.... Should be renamed Archer since that's it's only Master level fighting skill, and other classes should be dropped down to advanced Archery/Crosbow  max. That would give the "Soldier" it's own unique feel. And I would actually play that in the Militia.