The stealth meta

[SodaDogARM]

Having played heavy stealth characters I'm well aware of the likelihood of getting caught. Certain archetypes, the elf and even human miscreant most of all, are incredibly difficult to be caught as. It's just how the stats and skills work. Throw on a face-cover, fail a steal, nothing happens except you waltz away. That shouldn't always be the case.

To mention item's mechanics isn't the point. It's about the role-play aspects. People are leaving cool items that took care and effort to make, and should be shown off, at home because of how thievery works currently. It's a blow to what makes this game what it is, and that's creativity. Should those items be stolen sometimes? Absolutely. Should they be expected to be stolen every time you set foot outside of a locked room? No. Yet I'd say we're at the point where it's the latter.

Seeing the trends of the past year I am almost certain one of the main causes of a lack of independents and general player publicity is because of thievery, and I believe announced changes would ease minds in a way to draw players back out.

Edit: Also "But materialism is definitely something people cannot disregard in their RP it seems." I mean we're talking about a world where people own slaves and one where coveting anything remotely shiny is expected. I don't think materialism is a stretch as a character trait, as it would seem unrealistic for it to be anything but.

[Dresan]

I completely disagree with you with many of your statements. Your logic is completely flawed in my opinion.

It isn't always the case, considering the state of elves as whole there need to be some pros. You want risk? There is maybe one or two elves in the game, you steal from someone, all they do is hunt and that one one elf is practically exposed. You talk about creativity, in order to steal that one bit of virtual nothing that you can replace, these PCs live their life in some remote corner because the moment they sit down in a tavern they will get hauled in and killed in allanak.

What you are suggesting is a slippery slop in a game where there is perma-death. We are just going to have to agree to disagree in this case, but I feel your thoughts are dangerous for the long term health. I sincerely doubt you'll get those people to come out and RP but guess what you'll definitely lose some people that are here for the harsh unforgiving environment.

After all a couple weeks ago they were hiding because of fear of Pk? Whats next at this point?

[NinjaFruitSalad]

The problem with this logic is that as long as one item from your pack can disappear, people's behavior won't change.

There are characters who find themselves at death's door, and refuse to strip and hand over their shit to raiders despite the fact they are facing death. Its nuts.

You can limit steal all you want, but people will still continue to hide in fortresses as long as there is even one item they could lose. The fortresses need to go away. RPing over the way needs to be limited. 

One top of this sort of action is a slippery slope for the game, people asking for certain things to nerfed so they can feel 'safe' to RP.  This is a game with permadeath. You aren't supposed to win. Losing stuff from your pack should be the least of people's worries. There is cheap shit sold in the shops....buy that instead of the bejeweled maces of doom.

Thought I'd quote this, because while you may be correct in pointing out how materialistic people are, this is nothing we can really change even if it's true.  If many people choose death over losing all the items on their character, then this is a very informative piece of information that can help predict overall player behavior.

But it's utter strawman hyperbole to say that even if we nerf stealing, and it's still possible to lose just one item that people still will not go to taverns!  Rubbish. Absolute rubbish, I say.

At some point the risk/loss becomes tolerable. It's like the difference between having a 20% chance of getting eaten by a mek when leaving city walls and a 0.1% chance of being eaten by a mek. Obviously a 20% chance of death is quite significant and extremely risky, but if the chance is made small enough, at least a very large chunk of people are willing to brave it. Assuming there's some kind of reward or goal to fulfill at the end of the trek.

This is another aspect to RPing at taverns. Generally there's not too much to gain out of it other than some socialization. Why do you expect people to go to places, especially nobles or merchants, when they probably gain nothing and only expose themselves to risks?  It's absolute madness.  This isn't people RPing badly, it's really just common sense.

[SodaDogARM]

I'm not sure how you could go on about slippery slopes after saying what was "cut out a hefty portion of the locations in the game" but alright.

You also go from talking about how sad it is poor criminals are sought for their crimes then jump to how you wish to preserve the harsh environment. 

If you can't imagine how the harsh environment of the game of the game could be maintained without changing what is simply an overpowered thievery system, then you might be biased.

[Dresan]

No i am right. Because even if one thief can only steal one item from you. Once there are two or three thieves, then that is two or three items lost.

And frankly there is more then just one thief in the game. So your logic goes out the window with reduced chance. If there is a chance of losing shit,  people will continue to play as they currently are and nothing will change.

I just don't agree with you, I don't believe you will see the results you are expecting.  But we'll see what comes out of it.

[rinthrat]

If steal is nerfed to make it riskier than it already is, you'll just lose that aspect of the game entirely.

Why do people sit in a clan compound and not just - leave their extremly valuable daggers there, then come out in public?

[SodaDogARM]

I'm very anti-baubles sitting on shelves to only be looked at occasionally and traded hands (or not) upon storage or death.

I'm also not really aware of the risk you speak of. Perhaps it's a matter of smart character building but with certain stat combinations, preparations including identity hiders, and class choices there is little risk involved in the steal code at present if the skills are anything above mediocre. And they take little time at all to make not mediocre. You fail, there is no delay afterwards, you leave without a trace, and come back later.

[Vex]

If steal is nerfed to make it riskier than it already is, you'll just lose that aspect of the game entirely.

Why do people sit in a clan compound and not just - leave their extremly valuable daggers there, then come out in public?

Why do they even care, about their daggers, on such an OOC level, in the first place? They aren't real, they have no value, except for them being in play between players, in one fashion or another.

There is, rarely, some idiot who is just being an idiot, and flashing and taunting about how he can steal anything/everything invisibly, but that is RARE and usually, VERY short lived. To believe the GDB, these idiots walk the streets in large packs, ransacking rooms full of people down to their (very bunched) panties, and walk away laughing manically, whilst Templars despair dramatically over their own impotence. A shadowy, hateful menace, out to ruin innocent socials RP experiences, and forcing them to cower in componds, desperate to their precious valuables.

Only stealth nerfs can save us, staff! Save us staff!

You must be fucking with me, GDB. Get real.

[SodaDogARM]

Think it was stated very clearly that malicious OOC intent isn't the issue, Vex. Nor are stealth and thievery nerfs the same thing.

"They aren't real, they have no value, except for them being in play between players, in one fashion or another." isn't that all videogames doe... 

I don't really get the "it's just text" argument. It's all just text. It's a text game. Lol. People put roleplay value on items in the same way they put roleplay value on characters. They should get stolen because that's good roleplay, but there is an issue at present with how easy that is with little effort. Not everything has to be so polarized dude, there can be a middle ground where you aren't shooting an entire class archetype into the sun to solve one issue. That's all that's being asked for.

[rinthrat]

I'm very anti-baubles sitting on shelves to only be looked at occasionally and traded hands (or not) upon storage or death.

I'm also not really aware of the risk you speak of. Perhaps it's a matter of smart character building but with certain stat combinations, preparations including identity hiders, and class choices there is little risk involved in the steal code at present if the skills are anything above mediocre. And they take little time at all to make not mediocre. You fail, there is no delay afterwards, you leave without a trace, and come back later.

You fail, you get instantly arrested (or attacked, you chose by setting your nosave status), and end up dead or in a cell for templars and the Arm to stop by.

But I never fail!

Large items. Closed containers. Someone putting a watch on you while you're not hiding, and failing the hide as a result.

I'm very anti-baubles sitting on shelves to only be looked at occasionally and traded hands (or not) upon storage or death.

This is really only a problem for very specific baubles. And I don't think "I want to show off small baubles hanging off my belt" is a good enough reason to nerf criminals into oblivion.

[Dresan]

If it makes the anti-theft people here feel any better these threads can make staff take a long hard look at anyone playing a thief.

Since every staff member has their own opinion on how to play a thief, this can inadvertently lead to interactions with staff where people playing thieves might  store or leave the game.

And while the number of players might go down slightly, at least you'll solve the theft problem for a while,right?

Meanwhile we cannot yet have certain new nice things in the game because the economy is still broken and people can generate too many coins and not have enough things to spend it on. 

[NinjaFruitSalad]

All I'm saying is that when it comes to stealing, a bit more thought and care should be put into it, not unlike planning an assassination. The difference is that when PKing is involved, everyone gets riled up, and there are going to be bounties and more proactive measures. But as much as people claim to hate thieves, at the end of the day most people are just forced to grumble and move on with little recourse.

edit: Well, at least the topic has successfully moved from nerfing all stealth to just simply nerfing stealing.

[sandandblood]

People are always going to complain, no matter what happens, the same happens with player killing.
You could make it so that thieves only have a 5% chance to successfully steal and people would still complain.

[SodaDogARM]

Only one person could complain and people would still complain about people complaining. 

[Greve]

I'm inclined to say that it's probably necessary for stealth to work the way it does, but there's room for some tweaks. If it wasn't possible for characters built around stealth to be reasonably confident in it, we might ruin the stealth playstyle entirely. After all, what good is it if you know you're going to be spotted by anyone with master scan?

At the same time, I'm very much in favor of X-D's suggestion: certain actions should temporarily lower your "stealth level" and make you easier to spot. That's a great compromise that would let people feel comfortable with their stealth if they know they haven't done anything risky, but won't let every Amos and Malik with agility prioritized feel immortal when hidden.

There's one elephant in the room, however: the miscreant class. It just gets too much of everything. I think the current stealth meta comes from the fact that so many people play this class. Does it need to master basically every utility skill in the game? Does it need master forage, hunt, poisoning, etc? If you have a concept in mind that doesn't need combat or crafting, it's just so obvious that you take miscreant. It should probably be pigeonholed a little more into actual crime and not be such a catch-all for noncombat city play. I suspect we have too many characters that choose this class just because it gets everything you could possibly want as long as you don't need to fight or craft. And even if you do, it's not like the class is totally deficient. Advanced combat skills and you'll do alright as militia private. A crafting subclass and you'll pass just fine as a GMH employee. And you get to be a city ninja on top. Hell, pick the right subclass and you get wilderness stealth as well.

Back in the day, people used to ask for pickpocket and burglar to be combined into one class. Both of those guilds felt a little underwhelming because they could only really do one thing. Then they were combined but also received a huge pile of extra stuff that neither guild had before. Why not give infiltrator mastery of the burglar skills? Why not leave master poisoning to the stalker? Why does miscreant have master forage instead of scout?

These kinds of things are the reason too many players pick this class, and when half the city has master stealth, of course they're going to use it. And as a result, the place seems empty and players are tempted to go overboard with thievery because they have the skills available to them on characters who might not even have been intended as such when they began. The miscreant is due for a nerf is what I'm saying.

[Doublepalli]

Miscreant can still be rediculously overpowered in a combat sense as well. I'd argue they do better as assassin's than infiltrator.

Absolutely agree they could use a tweak

[Pew Pew]

I'm inclined to say that it's probably necessary for stealth to work the way it does, but there's room for some tweaks. If it wasn't possible for characters built around stealth to be reasonably confident in it, we might ruin the stealth playstyle entirely. After all, what good is it if you know you're going to be spotted by anyone with master scan?

At the same time, I'm very much in favor of X-D's suggestion: certain actions should temporarily lower your "stealth level" and make you easier to spot. That's a great compromise that would let people feel comfortable with their stealth if they know they haven't done anything risky, but won't let every Amos and Malik with agility prioritized feel immortal when hidden.

There's one elephant in the room, however: the miscreant class. It just gets too much of everything. I think the current stealth meta comes from the fact that so many people play this class. Does it need to master basically every utility skill in the game? Does it need master forage, hunt, poisoning, etc? If you have a concept in mind that doesn't need combat or crafting, it's just so obvious that you take miscreant. It should probably be pigeonholed a little more into actual crime and not be such a catch-all for noncombat city play. I suspect we have too many characters that choose this class just because it gets everything you could possibly want as long as you don't need to fight or craft. And even if you do, it's not like the class is totally deficient. Advanced combat skills and you'll do alright as militia private. A crafting subclass and you'll pass just fine as a GMH employee. And you get to be a city ninja on top. Hell, pick the right subclass and you get wilderness stealth as well.

Back in the day, people used to ask for pickpocket and burglar to be combined into one class. Both of those guilds felt a little underwhelming because they could only really do one thing. Then they were combined but also received a huge pile of extra stuff that neither guild had before. Why not give infiltrator mastery of the burglar skills? Why not leave master poisoning to the stalker? Why does miscreant have master forage instead of scout?

These kinds of things are the reason too many players pick this class, and when half the city has master stealth, of course they're going to use it. And as a result, the place seems empty and players are tempted to go overboard with thievery because they have the skills available to them on characters who might not even have been intended as such when they began. The miscreant is due for a nerf is what I'm saying.

I disagree, Miscreant (M) and stalkers (S) are great for what they are, utility characters. The disparity, when it comes to combat prowess, both ranged and close, compared to Infiltrator, Scout, Soldier, Raider, Enforcer and fighter is huge. M and S are great if you want to survive, but that is all you will really be able to do: survive.

In my previous post I said that Sneak/Hide is the new invis. To clarify that statement I did not mean that Sneak and hide needed to be nerfed, but that Invis should only be detectable by detect invis, not scan.

Sneak and Hide are fine and scan is broken, that is the problem. As it is the game has been nerfed significantly over the past decade, nerfing stealth and sneaky skills even further will likely end those classes being played. I do like the following two suggestions:

1. Using Search to find hidden people
2. Lowering your stealth for a set time after attempting a sneak skill.

Please remember this game is a RPI Mud, not a Mush. If you do not want your items stolen from you, do not keep them on your persons if you go to the tavern. If you want an environment where your characters will never die and all you do is emote and socialize all day safely, there are other games.

[Dresan]

I disagree too.

The moment the gith fire nation attacks everything will change and wilderness/combat classes will probably become very popular again.

If the focus of the game is currently nobles/festivals and political intrigue with very little of interest seemingly going on outside the walls, you can't complain if miscreants seem strong.

They have their strengths, inside cities and outside of combat. Once focus shifts to events like copper wars, gith wars, etc etc, miscreants would feel horrible to play in these situations.

Additionally as mentioned in another thread if the sewers  nder allanak (or addition of caverns) allowed more chances for high adventure and opportunities for combat within cities, or at the very least dangers or threats to deal with and explore down there then perhaps more combat savvy classes would pop up more in the city rather then just utility.

[triste]

The moment the gith fire nation attacks everything will change and wilderness/combat classes will probably become very popular again.

If the focus of the game is currently nobles/festivals and political intrigue with very little of interest seemingly going on outside the walls, you can't complain if miscreants seem strong.

They have their strengths, inside cities and outside of combat. Once focus shifts to events like copper wars, gith wars, etc etc, miscreants would feel horrible to play in these situations.

+1
Thank you so much for saying this. This is exactly why I've been wailing for 1.5 years [as someone who mostly plays outdoorsy types], but more positively, this is also why I have kudosed all the great miscreant/criminal types I've met. If you consider this a game of Rock Paper Scissors, and the staff are always going to put up role calls for Paper, the players who opt to play Scissors have found an excellent way to cut out a piece of power for themselves. It is jolly good fun being a miscreant right now with all these frilly fancy f---s and their diamond encrusted riding crops hanging from their belts. Just going to, ah, take and resell that, who is winning now?

^{[The ones who aren't winning in this analogy at all are the ranger PvE types, as you mentioned. God rest my wilderness RP loving soul, may it find peace. But that is not the topic here.]}

Additionally as mentioned in another thread if the sewers  nder allanak (or addition of caverns) allowed more chances for high adventure and opportunities for combat within cities, or at the very least dangers or threats to deal with and explore down there then perhaps more combat savvy classes would pop up more in the city rather then just utility.

+1
I love playing rinthers, but the only combat options are rats, sewer rats/critters, and humanoid NPCs. While killing humanoids and selling their organs is completely in the spirit of the 'rinth, not all rinthers are psychopathic enough to kill people and not all rinthers are pathetic enough to hunt rats. I do think addressing this gap in hunting/mechanics will indeed cause more variation in concepts, agreed.

[Dresan]

but that Invis should only be detectable by detect invis, not scan.

Mixed feelings about this.

I feel that it should probably not be all or nothing. Like you notice something is there but not get full description perhaps not be able to fully target.

But you can run away! If you have detect invis then yes, you should see them clear as day and target them.

Additionally scan needs to be properly split and have wilderness and city flag like sneak/hide/hunt.

[Cabooze]

but that Invis should only be detectable by detect invis, not scan.

Mixed feelings about this.

I feel that it should probably not be all or nothing. Like you notice something is there but not get full description perhaps not be able to fully target.

But you can run away! If you have detect invis then yes, you should see them clear as day and target them.

detect invis should be geared in such a way, that a person is fully visible to you, and you would only know that they are actually enchanted with invisibility by going into the room, looking at them, and seeing an aura or something similar.

Scan should give the players a pre-generated s/mdesc about the person being unable to be seen, but they should still very much be detectable and targeted. Whiran invisibility always strikes me as something reminiscent of:

Except.. Like.. Wind and shit.

Additionally scan needs to be properly split and have wilderness and city flag like sneak/hide/hunt.

No. This would only make the disparities between scan and sneak/hide even worse. Wait until staff rolls out any changes they are going to make to balance out sneak/hide/scan, first.. And even then. Just.. No. There's so few classes that get any scan that's worth a damn, so to then divvy it out to only be effective in x area would only further damage gameplay and roleplayability.

[Pew Pew]

Bunch of stuff.

Lol that is funny Cabooze because when I think of invis I think of the predator from the Predator movies. *Highfive* That being said it is magic, it is not some equipment that you can turn on and off, thus I am of the opinion that you should not be able to see an invis person, specifically at sul or mon, unless you have detect invis. The lower tiers should be visible via scan though.

[ABoredLion]

That is double funny, because despite having seen the 'there's an invisible person here' sign across various characters, I have never once seen a player character look at that thing in the distance and immediately go, 'Nothing but the wind. Just needed to wipe my eye real bad. Got something stuck on it that won't come off.'

They always immediately go, 'Whiran!' And then run home to talk about to to as many people as possible. I've had some underlings come running to me with this before and I've had to address it like, 'It's a desert. There's always wiggles on the horizon. What're you on about?'. I'm specifically avoiding stating the coded room showing of what an invisibility fail looks like here though.

I'd support that when someone's literally 'invisible' that they have a replacement desc that is the 'whiran' invisibility and must be broken to reveal their actual description, unless you have see invisible. Otherwise, they remain the invisible equivalent of 'a strange shadow' even when you look at them.

That's getting a bit off subject though.

The stealth meta comes at a heavy cost. It sounds like a lot of people have issue with miscreant specifically, which to me comes across as an issue with unrealistic thievery more than the actual 'value' of hide versus combat effectiveness.

[Dresan]

Just out of sheer curiousity in a world with dwarves, elves, mekillots and even magickal invisibility what exactly do you guys feel is unrealistic about stealing?

Again, my last exceptional agility elf with master steal did not have an easy time stealing from anyone with high listen and very likely high wisdom. Was it possible? Yes. Did he fail? Regularly.

Again perhaps the wisdom bonus for listen can be looked at too, someone investing in wisdom and a class with high listen should be a bit more safe against anyone but elves.

Listen is one of the upsides to choosing city classes but since wilderness class and stalkers are so popular I can understand why people think steal has no defenses. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cASDlhw8v8g

[ABoredLion]

I've seen that act. And it's important to note that for this kind of repeat thievery to occur, you have to blend in with the situation.

Unrealistic thievery (since you asked) would be an elf miscreant in a tavern that only allows humans, dressed like a rinthi rat with a dark hooded cloak, repeatedly lifting from nobles or their aides despite their guards standing about who would probably never allow an elf within arm's reach of them to begin with. It'd be continuing to lift from the person who has already realized they're being stolen from and looking around for you (the thief in that moment), where if you were going to continue stealing from them, you would have to somehow be considered not responsible by doing exactly what is shown in that video -- distracting them while appearing to be their friend and not the thief. If they're no longer willing to allow someone close to them physically (by being alarmed) and you continue to thieve, you definitely are doing a no-no. You're not magicking things out of their inventory (unless you are) so the only way you get that close is by them not looking for you.

Just remember, don't do things based on what code allows. Do things based on what is realistic for the given scenario. Especially when it comes to these things, or staff will be forced over time to limit them further. It wouldn't be the first time umbrella-style fixes were applied to handle a broad series of issues.

Don't be that figure in the area that is repeatedly coming in to bump up against them and jostle their watch loose, then their tie, then their belt, etc while they're already looking for you? That sums it up.