Grammar

[JollyGreenGiant]

The other thread in this forum inspired me to write a post on grammar.  Since my thoughts on the subject were running a bit long, I decided to give it its own thread.

:arrow: Know your homophones.  These are words that sound the same when spoken aloud but have different meanings and spellings.  For example, "it's" and "its".  "It's" is a contraction for "it is".  "Its" is the possessive form of the word "it".  Other commonly confused words include they're/their, capital/capitol, and too/to/two.

:arrow: Know your common misspellings.  One word I frequently see misspelled (aside from the word "misspell") is the word "lying".  That word is not spelled "lieing."

:arrow: Know your clauses.  An independent clause is a clause that can stand on its own.  A subordinate clause cannot stand on its own, nor can a subjunctive clause.  If you begin a sentence with a subordinate or subjunctive clause (such as this one), you should always offset the clause from the rest of the sentence with a comma.

:arrow: Know your conjunctions.  This is closely tied to knowing your clauses.  If you join two independent clauses with a conjunction, put a comma before the conjunction.  In a comma-separated list, do not put a comma before the last "and".  For example: "I had an apple, an orange and a banana."  Avoid beginning a sentence with a conjunction whenever possible.  A good rule on this is to simply remove the conjunction; if the sentence still makes sense, leave the conjunction out.

:arrow: Avoid purple prose.  

Like a tear of lucent crimson silver metallic rain-drop water, her hair flows down her back like a waterfall of shimmeringness and stuff.

This is an excellent example of purple prose, and as Jenred pointed out, it should be avoided at all costs.  Be descriptive, but avoid overkill.  You want people to read what you wrote, not skim over it.

:arrow: When possible, avoid certain descriptions.  There may not be a better way to describe someone's cascade of hair than the phrase, "like a waterfall".  If there's no other way to put it, then you're stuck.  However, a waterfall isn't really an IC concept, and the word might jar people who saw it in game.  There isn't always time to think that sort of thing out, especially in an emote in the middle of a conversation.  If you have the time, however, it's something you might consider.

:arrow: Avoid run-on sentences.  In general, if you find yourself writing an entire paragraph in a single sentence, you might want to consider breaking the sentence up into several thoughts to avoid confusing your audience, or worse, losing them as their train of thought fails to follow your own.  The previous sentence could be construed as a run-on.  I could have easily broken it up into several smaller sentences that would make it easier to read.  However...

:arrow: Variety is good.  If you find yourself writing a number of very short, simple sentences, you might want to consider putting related thoughts together.  Instead of writing, "I went to the store.  It was closed." you could write, "I went to the store, but it was closed."  If you find yourself consistently writing run-on sentences, break them up.

:arrow: Remember your goal.  The goal of writing is not to impress someone with your amazing vocabulary, or to see how massive a sentence you can compose; you're trying to convey a thought from your head to someone else's.  If you write absolutely beautiful sentences that no one reads, you haven't communicated anything at all.  Writing with such simplicity that your audience loses interest is just as bad, however, so try to find a balance between the two.

That's all I can think of at the moment.  I might come back and post more later.  If you're really looking to improve your writing skills, I highly recommend reading a book on technical writing such as Writing for Computer Science by J. Zobel.  It's a short book, less than two hundred pages if I remember correctly, and very easy reading.

[Note: Feel free to (gleefully, if necessary) point out any errors I've made, and I'll correct them. ]

[JollyGreenGiant]

I thought of something I forgot to add in, but I'm out of time.  If someone feels like adding a section on dangling participles, please do.  If not, I'll get to it later tonight.

[__Torax__]

Or you could just go through your 12 years of schooling and earn your High School Diploma. But, thanks for the english lesson and I'll go back to my amazingly dull and over-killed descriptive emotes that no one can possible fathum. Enjoy.

[Marauder Moe]

However, a waterfall isn't really an IC concept, and the word might jar people who saw it in game.

I've seen a -lot- of IC references/metaphores/etc that involve water that just wouldn't exist on Zalanthas.  Waterfalls, lakes, rivers, and drowning are all concepts that very few Zalanthians would understand.

Metal is another thing that shouldn't be very common in common speach.

What I've done (and would highly suggest) is take some time and think up a lot of RL saying that could creep into your character's life and make Zalanthian equivalents.

[Anonymous]

Or you could just go through your 12 years of schooling and earn your High School Diploma. But, thanks for the english lesson and I'll go back to my amazingly dull and over-killed descriptive emotes that no one can possible fathum. Enjoy.

Its spelled 'fathom'.

[__Torax__]

CRW, yes as you can see I am human and make the great mistakes of my life that you should point out. And its quite obvious that I didn't take JollyGreenGiants english lesson seriously. So please excuse my typos and try not to embarrase me with a personal attack. Thanks for your time.


:lol:  :wink:

[Northlander]

Or you could just go through your 12 years of schooling and earn your High School Diploma. But, thanks for the english lesson and I'll go back to my amazingly dull and over-killed descriptive emotes that no one can possible fathum. Enjoy.

Its spelled 'fathom'.

And that should be 'it's', as can be read at the very first of the arrows.
Can we keep this quoting... upp?

[Anonymous]

CRW, yes as you can see I am human and make the great mistakes of my life that you should point out. And its quite obvious that I didn't take JollyGreenGiants english lesson seriously. So please excuse my typos and try not to embarrase me with a personal attack. Thanks for your time.


:lol:  :wink:

Heh, its spelled 'embarrass' and I'm just monkeying with you. Spelling nazis on a discussion board annoy me.  I just couldn't help it when you made the comment about going through school.

[sarahjc]

While we are at it.. lets concentrate on only spelling and grammar and forget about Rp'ing..

Honestly Jolly.. That’s a laundry list a mile long.. But if you are not aware.. people are typing fairly quickly and it can be tough to double think what you are writing.. Maybe you have perfect 8th grade English skills. Good for you.. I am certainly guilty of a run on sentences and grammatical errors here and there.

I even spell things phonetically sometimes. (gasp)  Not that I do it on purpose, just happens when I’m typing fast.

I know it is irritating to RP with people that don’t even try to spell or emote properly.. But I would rather have the person who is really descriptive and emotes a lot, though maybe misspells a few things and has less then perfect grammar, than the person who just types out a conversation without emoting at all.

Yes there is a fine line, but I can’t say I’ve seen a person that I did not know was a clear Newbie with grammar so poor that I needed to complain about it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Or you could just go through your 12 years of schooling and earn your High School Diploma.

And yet, an astonishing number of people fail freshman (college) English classes miserably.

[Rindan]

I've seen a -lot- of IC references/metaphores/etc that involve water that just wouldn't exist on Zalanthas.  Waterfalls, lakes, rivers, and drowning are all concepts that very few Zalanthians would understand.

Metal is another thing that shouldn't be very common in common speach.

I disagree on both accounts.  First, drowning is something they would be able to understand, as you can very much drown in sand or silt.  There is a very large sea of silt that anyone can freely drown in.

Metal, while having almost mystical qualities IS something that at least any Allanaki could recognize.  There is a massive steel statue hanging over the gates that I imagine every Allanaki has seen.  Metal really looks unlike anything else.  I imagine they could easily pick out a metal from the regular materials like bone, stone, and obsidian very easily.  If anything, metal would probably have more meaning for them then it does to us.  Not only would it mean all the things it means to us, but those qualities would be amplified.  Metal isn't just strong, it is utterly unbreakable as far as they are concerned.  Metal is mystical and the stuff of legends.

[JollyGreenGiant]

people are typing fairly quickly and it can be tough to double think what you are writing

I understand that.  My post was more meant for static writing, like descriptions, where you have time to sit down and look over what you're writing.  Everyone makes mistakes when they're typing and thinking fast.

[sarahjc]

OH.. Yeah.. I can see that...

[creeper386]

First, drowning is something they would be able to understand, as you can very much drown in sand or silt. There is a very large sea of silt that anyone can freely drown in.

If you were to die by drowning, it's a liquid. It's probably not a common death occurance unless you work in a large stillery and fall in a huge vat of ale or something.

"Drowning" in silt or sand would be classified as suffocation, along the lines of smothering. Drowning is a form of suffocation but it's strictly in regards to liquids.

In my opinion I'm thinking most people would have some reference on metal. Even if it's just that they know the dragon statue is made out of metal and a glance at some nobles ring. Those rings or statue wouldn't mean nearly as much if everyone didn't know they were metal. Perhaps noone would have personal experience in handling metal, but what it's like wouldn't be a huge secret. There would be all sorts of stories and such.

As for all the grammar shit. Well I try to make my descriptions legible and descriptive. Perhaps the staff takes all sorts of time to edit my description or don't think my slip ups are world destroying, but over all small mistakes to me aren't a grand deal and I hardly notice them when reading other descriptions. Not because I don't KNOW what they are, it's because I don't see a huge deal in it when I easiely correct the problem mentally and move on.

But then I've read a sentance I've wrote perfectly when the written form I was reading was really screwed up and couldn't see the problem my english teaching was pointing out to me. Go figure.


Creeper

[Rindan]

Not to be a nit picking shit head, but drowning in is a perfectly acceptable word to use and has more then one meaning.  According to dictionary.com it also means, all of which would have meaning:

2. To drench thoroughly or cover with or as if with a liquid.
3. To deaden one's awareness of; blot out: people who drowned their troubles in drink.
4. To muffle or mask (a sound) by a louder sound: screams that were drowned out by the passing train.

Further, if someone wants to talk about drowning in the sea of silt, I imagine that would be okay too.  For better or for worse and I don't know Sirihish and hence don't know the exact word for dying in the sea of silt.  Drowning in it works for me, and generally any idiot can figure out what someone means if they say their mother drowned in the sea of silt.  Yes, it might technically only refer to liquids, but a great big pretend sea of silt is close enough to a liquid to me where it makes sense at the point is relatively clear.

I think people get a little too carried away with words that are and are not acceptable, especially when it is clear that the meaning trying to be conveyed does fit.  If someone says "they were drowning in 'sid after that last job", it is pretty clear what the meaning is and, at least to me, not in the slightest bit jarring.

[Bestatte]

Agreed with Rindan on the drowning thing (shoot me, please).

I'll add, that since the general population wouldn't know that "drowning" usually means dying as a result of sticking your face in water...

There's no reason why they wouldn't have invented that exact word to describe dying as a result of sticking your face in volcanic ash.

[creeper386]

Yeah. And if it's a small thing like using drowning like that you find acceptable I hardly see the problem with accidently using "it's" instead of "its" or their instead of they're. It still gets the meaning acrossed more often then not if your not a nit picking bastard.

I'm not trying to support illiteracy, just you elitist grammar and spelling nazi's all need to be killed to death.


Creeper

[The Dude]

you elitist grammar and spelling nazi's

You mean "nazis", Creeper. The apostrophe there doesn't work.

As far as what you were saying - that's just like, your, uh... your opinion, man.

[flurry]

They were nazis, Dude?  

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Bestatte]

Creeper, it's because the word drowning may or may not be appropriate, though it is not an incorrect word.

Using it's when you mean to use its is incorrect. It's not merely inappropriate. It's incorrect.

Sorta like that other thread about the difference in color between Lirathu and Jihae. Lirathu is white, Jihae is red. If you mean white, don't refer to Jihae, because it is incorrect.

Using incorrect words changes the meaning of the sentence and will result in people reading what you didn't mean to write.

[The Dude]

No, Donny. These men are Nihilists. Nothing to be afraid of.

[Drayab]

I hardly see the problem with accidently using "it's" instead of "its" or their instead of they're. It still gets the meaning acrossed more often then not if your not a nit picking bastard.

I disagree somewhat. Maybe I'm a nit picking bastard, but those kind of things are distracting for me. Granted, screwing up your typing as you furiously try to keep up with a quickly evolving situation is understandable, but most of the time I have a chance to look over what I've typed out before I have to send it out.

Also, in the original post it was said that in a comma seperated list you should not use a comma before the 'and.' I think this is a matter of taste. I also think that it is not always neccessary to use a comma after -all- of your subordinate clauses. For example, in the first sentence in this paragraph 'in the original post' could be taken as a subordinate clause, but I didn't use a comma because I think that the sentence flows more smoothly without it. Again, this is a matter of taste.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as grammar rules. I think a more appropriate word would be conventions. I say this because depending on who you learned from, you may have a slightly different set of grammar 'rules' that you learned. In my experience, I have found that the variations are usually in the proper way to use punctuation, but some things, such as spellings, we should be able to agree on for the most part. That's what //www.dictionary.com is for.

[creeper386]

Most the time, even if your using the incorrect word doesn't mean it changes the meaning. Yes it's akward. It doesn't look right. It doesn't flow right. That doesn't mean it'll be misinterpeted. Most the time something is misinterpeted isn't because a mistake on the writers part but because someone is being an ass about it.

Its a dog. It's not going to be misinterpeted.

Their going to the movies. Pretty obvious it is supposed to be they're.

Now, if you get a word that sounds different, but looks similar. It's far more likely to be misinterpeted. If you have an improper sentance, more then just putting in the wrong word, it's probably going to be confused with something else. By themselves something like that is hardly a huge mistake that is going to be misunderstood constantly. Maybe in a few cases it might be misunderstood but it isn't going to be a huge problem most the time. It may be annoying for some people, but there are people in the world, like myself, that don't notice the mistakes when they are writing or even reading their own stuff. I try to be alot more careful with my descriptions then anything else, but I'm not going to hire an editor just to check it. Most the time I don't even think to run it through Word for a quick check because it LOOKs right to me.

Mostly what I'm saying is even if descriptions you shouldn't let little things get to you. Especially when the point they are trying to make is obvious.

Creeper

[Bestatte]

Whatever, Creeper.

Text-based fantasy is no different from any other performance art. How you present your character means EVERYTHING.

In a play, a sloppily-presented performance will ruin the entire show.

In opera, a singer who sings off-key will destroy the scene.

In fashion shows, a scuff on the heel of the model will attract people to the shoddy display, rather than the gorgeous dress.

In text, if you don't at least make an attempt to conform to the accepted conventions, then your performance will not be believable.

I don't care that I know you "mean" it's rather than its. I care that you also know, and didn't bother fixing it. That tells me you don't give a shit about your own presentation, and therefore you shouldn't expect me to be impressed, no matter how pretty your emotes are, or how deeply involved in the plotline you are, or how powerful your character is.

If you aren't willing to -try- to put in an effort to present your text correctly in a text-based game, then you should expect that people aren't going to take you seriously.

[crawly]

Im from Sweden and I´m basically happy if I get the spelling right.
Getting the ´s right is simply a little to hard for me.
On the other hand I will accept the fact that you probably never get Swedish grammar right either.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

I agree with JollyGreenGiant, these things are important and should be kept in mind.  Everyone makes mistakes, especially when typing fast, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to do the best we can.  This game involves a large amount writing, and the better you write, the better you can bring your character and the world to life.

So writing/grammar is important for Armageddon, and really for the rest of life too, it's not a bad idea to brush up on your grammar from time to time.

[Bestatte]

Im from Sweden and I´m basically happy if I get the spelling right.
Getting the ´s right is simply a little to hard for me.
On the other hand I will accept the fact that you probably never get Swedish grammar right either.

See that's the thing Crawly. You try. No one can or should expect anyone to be perfect. I make mistakes all the time, and I hope most people would forgive those mistakes.

But there's a difference between trying and failing, and not putting in the effort to try in the first place.

I'd rather see your emotes, missing commas and added incorrect apostrophes and misspellings, than see the same from someone who knows better and just doesn't care.

[Irulan]

I agree as well that grammar is very important in a text based environment. It is how you are trying to express yourself, and the message that you are trying to convey can either be correctly interpreted, or badly misinterpreted based on your grammar. Wheras sometimes haggling over whether or not there is supposed to be a comma or not will not make a difference, there are other times where comma placement can make a big difference in the meaning of the sentence as well as other aspects of grammar. It can get confusing to whom you are referring in some emotes if your grammar is incorrect. I kind of think of it like like accents...if you have to spend a -huge- amount of time decoding the emote, you are going to get very tired of reading it and trying to understand what they mean. It is distracting and takes away from the experience. :?
That is just my two cents worth though.

[Barzalene]

Most drownings occurr in less than two feet of water...I bet there have been instances of drowings on Zalanthas. In buckets and barrels and sewers and cesspools,

[John]

It's also very easy to tell someone who is an ESL and a 13 yr old American boy :roll:

[JollyGreenGiant]

It's also very easy to tell someone who is an ESL and a 13 yr old American boy.

Agreed.

Also, in the original post it was said that in a comma seperated list you should not use a comma before the 'and.' I think this is a matter of taste.

I pulled that bit about the list from the Associated Press Stylebook.

I also think that it is not always neccessary to use a comma after -all- of your subordinate clauses. For example, in the first sentence in this paragraph 'in the original post' could be taken as a subordinate clause, but I didn't use a comma because I think that the sentence flows more smoothly without it.

You might have me, there.  I can't remember if prepositional phrases are considered subordinate clauses.  Nor can I remember what the rule is on comma use with prepositional phrases.  I'll dig up my copy of the stylebook tonight and look it up.

And now, since no one else has included it yet...

:arrow: Avoid dangling participles and misplaced modifiers.  An example is "Rushing to finish the paper, Bob's printer broke." Here the subject is Bob's printer, but the printer isn't doing the rushing. Better would be "While Bob was rushing to finish the paper, his printer broke." (example quoted from this site.)  This site has some good examples of misplaced modifiers and how to correct them.

[Drayab]

Feel free to look it up and tell us what you find. Whatever the answer, I think this is a grammatical subtlety that most people wouldn't notice (in the game) or care about. Remember that many well respected novelists don't conform to 'proper' grammar in their writing. I wonder how many high school English teachers would have failed William Faulkner?

[creeper386]

I don't care that I know you "mean" it's rather than its. I care that you also know, and didn't bother fixing it. That tells me you don't give a shit about your own presentation, and therefore you shouldn't expect me to be impressed, no matter how pretty your emotes are, or how deeply involved in the plotline you are, or how powerful your character is.

For one, it's not about not caring, or being lazy and not bothering to change it. It's about something that looks fine when I look at it. I can read though most anything and miss mistakes. Most the time I DO find mistakes isn't neccessarily the mistake itself but that it's a flaw in the flow of whatever I'm reading. When I do notice mistakes. I don't go, "OMG they just fucked up! It's going to ruin my day." It is the same when I'm reading my own things. I just either don't notice a mistake, or I correct it mentally basically never seeing the mistake. I'm not going to put all my posts through Word, or run everything I input into the MUD just to make sure I appease someone who has a huge stick up there ass.

You personally come after me as if I don't give a shit, or as if I try to create mistakes. Well on the first account your correct to a degree. I don't care on the message board. When it comes to being IG or a description I do put ALOT more effort into them then I do a post on the GDB, or in IRC or anywhere else. At times I tend to put alittle more effort in paying attention to what comes out when I type, just not all the time. Hell, a good portion of the time not only do I not really pay attention to what is showing up on the screen as I'm typing, I'm not even watching the screen.

Yes, it's a text means, spelling and grammar matter, that doesn't mean it is neccessary to have perfect spelling, have perfect English grammar. It's a pretty good thing alot of time just to have a sentance that starts with a capital letter, flows in logical sequence and ends with some sort of punctuation. It doesn't mean I don't care, or I'm lazy... It comes down to having different expectations and beleifs. Yes I know, they are set laws and rules to it that have to be followed to the 'T'. Blah blah blah.

Anyways I'm done. Have fun tearing this apart, pointing out typos and misspellings, and generally telling me how wrong I am. I'm out.


Creeper

[Angela Christine]

I've had enough struggles with spelling, grammer and those thrice damned commas that I have no buisness throwing stones at anyone else's typos.  But I'm still human and have my own personal pet peeve, one that often comes up in emotes where I can't do anything about it, so I'm going to take this opportunity to vent.

wary  = cautious
weary = tired

Thanks, I feel better.

AC

[Bestatte]

creper ur rite it dosent mater so do wut u wana do cuz i dont' care bcz al i axe is that ppl TRY 2 presnet they'reselfs as gud as tehy can but tahts' ovlosly 2 much 2 axe so 4get it jsut rember it dosent mater and keep rembering taht wen u come by ppl whu rite leik tihs bcz teh more u give teh more tehy take till there isent ne thing left 2 give ne more

[crymerci]

LOLZ!!!!!!!!11

[creeper386]

Well... I wouldn't be surpised to see this deleted but I have one thing left to say.

Bestatte, how about you fuck off.

[JollyGreenGiant]

So here's the thing.  I'd kind of hoped to keep most of the flaming out of this thread, and instead keep it around as a tool or a reference for anyone that cared.  I make no claims of elitism.  If you want to argue playability over perfection, I'll buy that any day of the week.

I do wish people would exercise a bit more care with the written language.  It's a tool, but that doesn't mean it has to be ugly and unwieldy.  There are many common mistakes that can be easily corrected if you just get into the habit of doing them right.  I don't understand why someone would just flat-out refuse to do so; to me that's like insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 despite any evidence to the contrary.  Easy mistake to fix, why waste all the energy getting upset about it when you could use that energy to make it better instead?

Yes, everyone makes mistakes.  Yes, it's hard to type fast.  Yes, some people speak English as a second language (or third, or fourth).  Very good points.  My point is, why not fix what you can, when you can?

I wonder how many high school English teachers would have failed William Faulkner?

Point taken, but even Faulkner observed the basic structures.  This thread was never meant to be anything but a reminder of a few grammar rules for people to look over, if they cared to.  If you saw something that helped, then I'm glad; that's all I wanted to do.  If you don't care or can't be bothered, then that's fine, and this thread obviously has no relevance to you.

[Bakha]

If I had a nickle for everytime I've mispelled obeisance ingame, I'd be rich.

[Bakha]

If I had a nickle for everytime I've mispelled obeisance ingame, I'd be rich.

Just to save you the trouble:

everytime= every time

[John]

If I had a nickle for everytime I've mispelled obeisance ingame, I'd be rich.

peek Bakha

The frail little man has in his pack:
a large pile of coins

steal coins Bakha

You can't lift that

[Anonymous]

I don't see why people are getting their knickers in a bunch over this. Most are just saying, try. And some are saying, try and here's some tips to help you try.

So how come there's people being all pissy against the ones who are asking you to try? I mean what's the big deal? If you aren't willing to try how come you bother playing the game in the first place? Arm isn't a place where you're gonna get shit handed to you. Neither is life or anything else. Well unless you break the law and get sent to jail, then you get your meals handed to you in solitary but that's besides the point. You have to try.

Just like some people say everyone owes it to the game to try to help newbies. Newbies owe it to the game to try to help themselves. And everyone owes it to the game to try and write so people can understand you.

Try is the word of the day.

[spawnloser]

Brought to you by the letter 'T' and number 23.

[Anonymous]

I think people might be getting their knickers in a twist over the implication that if you're making certain mistakes then you're not trying.

Do you think there's a widespread problem of lack of effort from the playerbase?  I don't.

[Bardex]

I don't think it's a widespread problem. I notice a few who could do with some improvement, and a few who really don't look like they're trying. But with things like caps and punctuation I think it's a nobrainer. That to me just reeks of laziness.  Does it ruin my fun? No, but it's still distracting and if everyone did it I wouldn't play this game at all. Right now it isn't bad enough that it bugs me but mostly because there aren't that many people who do that who I interact with anyway.