Longneck?

[Cowboy]

Today I received a warning for using the word "longneck."  I thought the term "necker" was banned.  Did I miss something?

[triste]

Today I received a warning for using the word "longneck."  I thought the term "necker" was banned.  Did I miss something?

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52685.msg991344.html#msg991344

This is the only published instance of a banned term like this I see and it's for necker.

Let's not ban any other term like this, as it's a slippery slope. Fantasy vernacular is a very abstract thing to make political. Describing a humanoid by their anatomy is inherently a bit offensive, but if every term like this was banned there wouldn't be a lot of vernacular left.

Per that linked post, that term was not only a slur, but almost homonymous with a real life slur and so it's a special case.

[Riev]

Longneck was the progenitor of the term necker.
First they were longnecks.
Then people who associated with them were longneckers.
Then it spread to all elves being longneckers.

Then the history of 'necker' came about.

Its a warning. I think if we're going to be subjected to other words that end up in bans and such, we should know about them beforehand, and not be subject to individual warnings. Don't let staff be subjective in enforcing rules, let it be known.

[Cowboy]

I hope some staff member just made a mistake this time. 

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I have no idea what the term "necker" or "long neck" is even supposed to mean.  Never heard that before.

And for a game that has tons of slavery, forced breeding of interspecies, very prominent racism, mudsex, murder, corruption, and betrayal I find it strange and ironic this particular stance is taken.

[BadSkeelz]

"Necker" was ultimately banned because it was a lazy effort to get a homonym for "nigger" in to the game so people could make cringy rinthi gansta rap.

[molecricket]

I have no idea what the term "necker" or "long neck" is even supposed to mean.  Never heard that before.

And for a game that has tons of slavery, forced breeding of interspecies, very prominent racism, mudsex, murder, corruption, and betrayal I find it strange and ironic this particular stance is taken.

"Necker"'s resemblance to the real-life N-word is what caught it that ban. It also didn't really make much sense to begin with. Is "neck" a verb? Do elves neck people?

[NinjaFruitSalad]

*shrugging* 

I notice that most dwarves, half-giants, some muls, and humans tend to be so bulky and stout that they have like no discernable neck.

So I'd assume it's something against elves or particularly slender, elf-like humans and breeds.  It honestly didn't sound much different from sharp, round ear, or knife ear to me. So while "necker" certainly has a real-world resemblance and doesn't make all that much sense in the context of a verb, the term "long neck" definitely looked like it fit in...

[John]

"Necker" was ultimately banned because it was a lazy effort to get a homonym for "nigger" in to the game so people could make cringy rinthi gansta rap.

not how it happened. Long neck had a long history of use before Necker came about.

[WarriorPoet]

Oh, god. This is back?

[triste]

Oh, god. This is back?

Yeah we need to just agree that one and only one term like this is blacklisted, drop the topic, and try our best not to bring this up again.

I say as one of our few players with African ancestry in part [and I wasn't at any point offended by fantasy vernacular because the separation of a fantasy world from the real world is nice and clear to me]. Edit: I didn't spell it out, but I understand that just because I am not offended doesn't mean that somebody else isn't. That's obvious and called living in a civil society. Let's not just end up in some weird scenario where we ban "kank" for sounding like "fuck." But let's not get overzealous just rely on staff announcements/docs.

[triste]

Well this ended up being timely. The change WRT the Tan Muark is fine, because again, bleed over into real life.

So the guideline here is if it bleeds over into real life pretty clearly, (EG, exactly matches a derogatory term IRL, or matches it in sound to some extent and is used in the same way), and it's derogatory IRL, it doesn't fly IG.

[John]

Gypsy makes 100% sense. It would be the same as "fag" being acceptable in early 90s* but not today. Long neck had nothing to do with RL slurs and any derivatives evolved ICly in a way that made IC sense. While people might have appropriated the term for inappropriate roleplay, the problem isnt the term but the behaviour.

Gypsy vs long neck are in no way comparable.

[molecricket]

Gypsy makes 100% sense. It would be the same as "fag" being acceptable in early 90s* but not today. Long neck had nothing to do with RL slurs and any derivatives evolved ICly in a way that made IC sense. While people might have appropriated the term for inappropriate roleplay, the problem isnt the term but the behaviour.

Gypsy vs long neck are in no way comparable.

I think we're all in agreement here, I don't know if anyone is in this thread supporting getting a warning for long neck. I would be interested to get some more details on this from staff, all we have right now is Cowboy's account.

[ScramblesForPurchase]

While we're talking about vernacular I just want to take a moment to blame Disney for normalizing the word "gypsy" to my subconscious. Thanks Disney. Thanks.

[triste]

Gypsy makes 100% sense. It would be the same as "fag" being acceptable in early 90s* but not today. Long neck had nothing to do with RL slurs and any derivatives evolved ICly in a way that made IC sense. While people might have appropriated the term for inappropriate roleplay, the problem isnt the term but the behaviour.

Gypsy vs long neck are in no way comparable.

I think we're all in agreement here, I don't know if anyone is in this thread supporting getting a warning for long neck. I would be interested to get some more details on this from staff, all we have right now is Cowboy's account.

Yeah I just submitted a request asking if we could get docs similar to http://armageddon.org/help/view/Sdesc%20Words for stuff like this, or just a post aggregating a list of other posts banning and retconning things in general. This topic is annoying whenever it comes up and it would be cool for both staff and players to have a clearly defined [and ideally very short] list.

[Shabago]

Per Triste request:

https://armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular

Lacking the context of OP at the time of said exchange, I'm left to assume there was some mis-read/connection to 'Necker'.

[Grogerif]

Now I know I have seen at least five of the words in the not allowed list on recent characters.  So I assume it's not a hard rule, as long as it makes sense and actually is not vulgar or out of place? 

[Shabago]

If you see something from said list being used, report it and it'll be fixed/addressed. Things may slip through, there will be some growing pains as people adjust to any sort of change, etc.

Will you be banned because you accidentally slipped and said a word during RP? No. You'll be asked to stop. If it continues, is a trend, or purposefully ignored to grief other players, different story.

[ScramblesForPurchase]

Maybe this just hasn't been updated yet but just to be sure it's not missed by accident:

"The Tan Muark, also commonly known as the gypsies..."

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tan%20Muark

[Shabago]

Maybe this just hasn't been updated yet but just to be sure it's not missed by accident:

"The Tan Muark, also commonly known as the gypsies..."

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tan%20Muark

Thank you. Will grab that now.

[Cowboy]

I am going to continue to use the term "longneck" with my current character.  I'll forward any more warnings I get, via a request, for clarification.

[Dresan]

Per Triste request:

https://armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular

Lacking the context of OP at the time of said exchange, I'm left to assume there was some mis-read/connection to 'Necker'.

Just some late feedback about this because I've had similar experiences that to this day I think are stupid.

I feel this sort of thing should be handled by email. With the only message in-game being "Hi. We've sent you some email feedback on the 'action/use/etc'

The short messages in game are just not the best way to handle these issues, as there could be emotions and misunderstanding running on both sides. If emails are ignored then it can be escalated in game but otherwise I feel handling this in-game truly ruins the overall experience.

[Doublepalli]

As a man of color I do not find longneck offensive or degrading at all to the RL N word.

I think people who are blowing this out of proportion.

Elves are tall, and lanky and probably do have long necks.

Banning necker/necka makes since.

Longneck? That doesn't even remotely sound like the N word

[triste]

As a man of color I do not find longneck offensive or degrading at all to the RL N word.

I think people who are blowing this out of proportion.

Elves are tall, and lanky and probably do have long necks.

Banning necker/necka makes since.

Longneck? That doesn't even remotely sound like the N word

I'm part black too and also wasn't offended deeply by these words: that is why I find this topic annoying, and that is why I asked for staff to cleanly enumerate banned words so that we can just point to that list and drop the topic.

I think banning topics/words is a bad idea that irrevocably changes and limits our game, BUT... now that the door has been opened, best to clearly enumerate the policy so that we don't have to debate it [which staff did, thanks!]

[number13]

A touch confused --

Necker is clearly banned. What about the words "longneck" and "longnecker"?

[triste]

A touch confused --

Necker is clearly banned. What about the words "longneck" and "longnecker"?

Only words banned are these: https://armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular

longneck and longnecker are not listed, so they aren't banned, period.

not going to get like the FCC and include "derivatives of," but if you intentionally try to make a very clear derivative of a banned word, and use it in the same way that caused the word to be banned, you're probably being a jerk.

[Doublepalli]

Longnecker is questionable, given the necker part. Even saying it out loud sounds like a severe country term for the N word.

So I see where staff just draws the line to make things easier.

But elves do need derogatory terms. Its part of the game.

Sharp ears. Sharps. Knife ears. Stick-legs. Twigs. Lets keep it going guys watcha got

[Inks]

Pick dicks.

[triste]

Pick dicks.

The less it resembles real life the better.

Let me just say something here. Dungeons and Dragons got criticized because it had "inherently evil" races like "dark elves." Armageddon doesn't have inherently evil races because it's not a naively racist game like other games. The closest thing to an evil race in Armageddon are Gith, but they are from another dimension, and who knows what they are saying in their dimension-crossing language. Maybe they're trying to liberate Zalanthas! Jokes aside, even gith are morally gray in this game as they have been Templar slaying liberators at various points.

My point here is -- there is no good and evil in Zalanthas, therefore there are not "good" or "evil" races, therefore there is no relative worth ascribed to races, therefore there is no racist judgement made in this game by game designers, therefore, despite false and naive descriptions of this game as racist, this game is not racist. These people are gravely mis-reading what is in fact an anti-racist game that paints racism as a problem and celebrates diversity with conflict and nuance.

And as a player of color, and a trans person, let me say to any other players from persecuted populations* that if content here crosses the clear line Staff has tried to draw to protect players, feel free to submit a request and it will change. This has happened a few times, Staff are happy to make reasonable adjustments if people are feeling real pain from any of this.

Personally it takes a lot for fiction to cause me pain, because I've been an actual victim of hate crimes IRL and I know what happens in a game nowhere nears the trauma of that experience. In fact this game heals me and helps me process trauma. That said, I understand where other people are coming from so feel free to speak up to staff in a request if something hurts you.

But yeah, out of all of these if I had to endorse one it's "Twigs."

* What do I mean by a persecuted population or protected minority? Good question! Lately, a lot of people have been trying to apply American legal concepts to Armageddon MUD, but Armageddon tries to address these things with a global mindset as well. So just imagine the most generous, comprehensive, long and loving list of protected minorities you can imagine <3

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I think the thing about D&D is the fact that some races had "always evil" in their entries, but that actually wasn't true, if you thought about it. There still always could be exceptions. Not talking about devils or demons, I mean things like Drow, Orcs, Goblins.. Regardless, it still gave rise to the notion that it's okay to just kill them for no reason.

In Armageddon, this is different because Byn and Militia members like to frequently harass and abuse elves for no reason other than the fact that they stole the same air they breathe. Many people enjoy watching an elf get bloodied, maimed, or killed, regardless of the reason, and in the narrows, elves minding their own business are slaughtered wholesale.

Oh, wait.....

Still, I don't think there's many similarities to real life that would justify a change to the game.

[triste]

Fiction does not equal reality. If you think the two are directly related, go to a shrink. If you think the two are directly related, you're opposed to hundreds, if not thousands of authors of color, and are accusing these people of color of being racist when they are not.

Fiction does not equal reality.
Fiction helps heal our reality.

If troubling scenes in a game help people realize why troubling scenes like that are never acceptable IRL, great. They've been healed by literature about race, just like entire countries have been healed when they read the books people of color have written about race.

So keep writing about race. It's a good thing.

If you can't process literature in a healthy way, get help for your emotional pain.

[triste]

So keep writing about race. It's a good thing.

And maybe write about it on relevant forums instead of, randomly, this game's message board. There are much better forums than this board if you actually care about these topics and want to help fight the real problem.

Anyway, it's obvious why this thread was necro'd given recent circumstances.

Fiction and art heals our reality and under no circumstances should be censored.
While some people advocate for censoring racist material, Armageddon MUD is not a racist game, scenes like the one you describe actually help people unpack and learn not to be racist.

I am actually playing a reunion Dungeons and Dragons game with my High School wrestling team next month. It's the first DnD game we've played together in years. We are comprised of... A guy from Hong Kong, a guy from Guangzhou, an African American, a white American, two guys from Taiwan, my half-latin ass, and a Samoan.

I might ask what drew these people to play Dungeons and Dragons. Absolutely none of them are going to say "because it's racist and I like racism" -- why on earth would we all be friends with each other if this were the case? What they probably would say is "you can play whatever you want in this game and that's awesome." If you think games like this do anything other than celebrate diversity, you have a very turbid and murky world view.

[Inks]

Also gith aren't from another dimension in Armageddon. You are thinking of githyanki.

[triste]

Also gith aren't from another dimension in Armageddon. You are thinking of githyanki.

Also they aren't inherently evil, as Armageddon doesn't have the stupid, racist idea of an "inherently evil race" because this game isn't racist.

[Inks]

No they aren't evil sterotypes. Correct. Just everyone stop bringing this stuff onto my pretend bone swinging simulator.

[triste]

No they aren't evil sterotypes. Correct. Just everyone stop bringing this stuff onto my pretend bone swinging simulator.

Firm agree CC staff lock this thread.

We got what we needed out of this thread a while ago -- clear documentation stating real life racism is stupid and sucks, clear documentation that helps players avoid coming even close to real life racism [because it is stupid and sucky and has nothing to do with this game].

[NinjaFruitSalad]

All inks did was say another possible derogatory term for elves, which was actually on topic.

He's not the one that went off on a diatribe about racism.   imo thread doesn't need locking.

[triste]

All inks did was say another possible derogatory term for elves, which was actually on topic.

He's not the one that went off on a diatribe about racism.   imo thread doesn't need locking.

Cool, I was just addressing concerns people had. You yourself seemed to imply harmful racism exists in this game, which it doesn't.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

All inks did was say another possible derogatory term for elves, which was actually on topic.

He's not the one that went off on a diatribe about racism.   imo thread doesn't need locking.

Cool, I was just addressing concerns people had. You yourself seemed to imply harmful racism exists in this game, which it doesn't.

If you'd bothered carefully reading the very last sentence, maybe you would think otherwise.

[triste]

All inks did was say another possible derogatory term for elves, which was actually on topic.

He's not the one that went off on a diatribe about racism.   imo thread doesn't need locking.

Cool, I was just addressing concerns people had. You yourself seemed to imply harmful racism exists in this game, which it doesn't.

If you'd bothered carefully reading the very last sentence, maybe you would think otherwise.

Nope, thinking exactly as I do because I know the difference between fact and fiction and I am not afraid of fiction that holds up a mirror to life because it shows the ugly things in life we need to fix.

Armageddon is a great game with nuance that holds a mirror to the ugly things in life so that we can see these horrors for what they are.

Assuming there is such a reductive concept as good and evil, and racism is evil, if you remain ignorant to evils, you let evil thrive. Censoring topics and redacting and revising content to appease people who want to censor that content is giving in to lightless* ignorance. I hate ignorance and you should too.

* Disclaimer for my friends who read racism into literally every benign and harmless thing -- I said lightless here because you literally need light to read text on a page or a screen. And reading is a great hobby I recommend it.

[Doublepalli]

I still don't see the issue.

I just play an elf and tear the upclass stuck up humans apart whenever I want to "make a difference" in the normal Armageddon rascist caste. Be it elf or dwarf, I force them to acknowledge my character, be it renown/deeds or a blade to your throat.

[triste]

I still don't see the issue.

I just play an elf and tear the upclass stuck up humans apart whenever I want to "make a difference" in the normal Armageddon rascist caste. Be it elf or dwarf, I force them to acknowledge my character, be it renown/deeds or a blade to your throat.

Yeah it isn't an issue. What you describe here is actually awesome for people of color to experience [speaking for myself] because it is relatable. It is awesome for ANYONE to experience in game, if they want to, and it even teaches empathy.

More people of color play Armageddon than other comparable games [guaranteed fact]. Outside of fact, my conjecture as to why this is because Armageddon isn't a stupid and reductively racist game. It handles this topic fairly and well, and as a result our player base is more diverse than others.

[Heade]

I personally don't think that in an adult-themed RPI you should make any effort to prevent people from being offended. People can be offended by anything. That isn't a rabbit hole that should even be approached. We should just let people RP and use whatever words they want, or explore whatever themes they want.

I believe in consent IRL. In an adult-themed RPI, I don't even think consent should be an OOC thing that is sought. But I'll choose my battles. I'm willing to deal with consent rules. I don't think we should limit vocabulary to try to dance around the ever changing triggers of the general population at large.

I'm offended that people take offense to fictional parallels to real racism. Does that matter? Do I have to be a particular race IRL for my offense to count?

Do people get offended at books that are written that have characters that are blatantly and obviously racist? No. They're fictional characters and their inherent racism very likely adds to a compelling story. That is the same situation here. Let's get over ourselves and enjoy this bit of collective live-action literature that we're collaboratively creating for what it is: Fiction.

All racism will have a parallel to real life racism because it's the same word, meaning the same thing. Every instance of "blue" will have a real life parallel to "blue". We can't alter that without altering the meaning of words. Armageddon includes fantastic racism. I don't think that is something that the majority of people want to go away, so we should stop beating this dead horse and just tell people that instead of trying to feign some sort of sensitivity. If it offends you, you're welcome to not participate in it. That should be the mantra of such an adult-themed game world that is meant to include terrible, harsh things like slavery, racism, corruption, and murder.

[triste]

Two years ago I would have whole heartedly agreed with you Heade.

I have been subject to horrible things IRL, including slurs and r--- er, I mean, other redacted content.

A while back I was diagnosed with repetition compulsion due to a lot of that trauma happening in early childhood. Fiction is actually recommended as a treatment for people like me. Censoring fiction can literally endanger my sick, sad, PTSD stricken life. Games like Armageddon keep me from drinking like Jessica Jones and getting in trouble.

But... for better or worse, now I can't fully agree with you. I understand some people with trauma deal with it in the opposite way as me. I don't know. Part of me wishes I could just tell people more sensitive than me to find another game, but I also like these people too.

It's all about empathy. I hope people will be more empathetic to people like you and me in time Heade too.

[triste]

I mean, I don't know what to fucking say. Adults can co-exist. If I had my way there would be no strictly censored topics, but if people get uncomfortable with a given scene you can request a FTB, like skipping pages in a book.

Fucking with narrative and free will is intellectually constraining. I get the plight of vulnerable minorities because I fucking am one, but don't restrict creativity or speech. Whew.

I have had to cut myself off from this game because everyone has a different opinion. [Edit to clarify: namely I am concerned by how polarized these opinions have become such that people seem to either be on team 1 (destroy all fantasy narratives that might, even mildly, impact real life negatively) or team 2 (allow all narratives because they are safely contained in the imaginative realm). There seems to be no team 3 in between and I have been disparaged as a "woke centrist" for trying to find compromise here]  At the end of the day for the sake of our small ass game I hope we find a solution where everyone can be happy.

[triste]

Literally just so fucking done with this topic.

Side A: if you write the word "eyelid" in your documentation I am going to scream racism and compare your gaming community to the KKK
Side B: I should be allowed to eat babies and come up with homonyms for hate speech in this game.

Me, a person of color and member of the ACLU who believes in both free speech and egalitarianism:

[Hauwke]

9 of the last 14 posts on the thread are by you. Relax dude.

[triste]

I have a right to speak about this. White people silencing people of color on the matter of race is disgusting.

That said, I've asked for this thread to be closed because it's now, thanks to the action staff took to remediate the immediate issue, pointless and highly triggering to people who actually experience racism.

[triste]

If staff can speak to the point of keeping this thread open that would be great.

It started with OP's complaint. It's now all clear through documentation. More than half of the posts here are off topic.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Side A: if you write the word "eyelid" in your documentation I am going to scream racism and compare your gaming community to the KKK
Side B: I should be allowed to eat babies and come up with homonyms for hate speech in this game.

No one's said anything like this. Not even that guy with 1 post who was saying dwarves in Armageddon have similarities to Asians stereotypes IRL.

Listen, would you just stop?  You're spamming up this thread with something completely off topic that originated from an entirely different thread.

[triste]

Side A: if you write the word "eyelid" in your documentation I am going to scream racism and compare your gaming community to the KKK
Side B: I should be allowed to eat babies and come up with homonyms for hate speech in this game.

No one's said anything like this. Not even that guy with 1 post who was saying dwarves in Armageddon have similarities to Asians stereotypes IRL.

Listen, would you just stop?  You're spamming up this thread with something completely off topic that originated from an entirely different thread.

Gotcha, silenced. Resume talking about fantasy racial slurs, my opinion doesn't matter as someone who has been a recipient of them IRL. I bow to you, Ninja.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Side A: if you write the word "eyelid" in your documentation I am going to scream racism and compare your gaming community to the KKK
Side B: I should be allowed to eat babies and come up with homonyms for hate speech in this game.

No one's said anything like this. Not even that guy with 1 post who was saying dwarves in Armageddon have similarities to Asians stereotypes IRL.

Listen, would you just stop?  You're spamming up this thread with something completely off topic that originated from an entirely different thread.

Gotcha, silenced. Resume talking about fantasy racial slurs, my opinion doesn't matter as someone who has been a recipient of them IRL. I bow to you, Ninja.

You're more than welcome to make your own thread, where you can virtue signal all you want.

[Hauwke]

I've refrained from speaking about racism on this forum because honestly it has no place in the game. I am an Australian Aboriginal, my grandfather was part of the Stolen Generation, which to you Americans, basically, my grandfather was forcibly removed from his childhood hood home because his skin was  light enough color that he was considered human. That man was forced at age 16 to continue my bloodline and dilute the aboriginal blood.

I have not once on this forum complained about any kind of racism in game because I am not some sensitive child who gets hurt just because they hear something remotely offensive.

The racism in Armageddon MUD is not in any way a reflection of real life racism, anyone who says that it is, is looking for racism and is themself being racist.

White men can be racist.
Black men can be racist.
Hispanic men can be racist.
Asian men can be racist.

Calm the fuck down and look at the game for what it is, a game in which we ACTIVELY play downtrodden people for fun. We actively put our characters in a shitty world for the fun of it. Does it hurt the feelings of a few extremely sensitive people? Sure, I suppose it could. But that does not in any way mean that the game is racist in a realistic sense.

Elves are not black people, that thought never even occured to me.
Dwarves are not asians progressing as hard as they can, never occured to me.

I can't go and live the lifestyle I want to live, because my skin is too white. That there is racism. Not calling an elf a longnecked person. They are often 8 feet tall, their necks are bloody longer.

[Doublepalli]

I'll stop you at Hispanics and blacks can be racist.

Racism is a systematic oppression, on a broad scale to shove a certain type of people down.

Hispanics and blacks can absolutely be pregadist, however racism is not something they can be. Racism still happens today, and people would rather we "shut up" about it and act like it never happens like the past 400 years.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I'll stop you at Hispanics and blacks can be racist.

Racism is a systematic oppression, on a broad scale to shove a certain type of people down.

Hispanics and blacks can absolutely be pregadist, however racism is not something they can be. Racism still happens today, and people would rather we "shut up" about it and act like it never happens like the past 400 years.

This is patently false.  What is this word "pregadist" anyway?  I searched and searched and only got some hits that maybe the word you're looking for is "prejudiced".  But guess what? Racism is a form of prejudice.

Racism =/= systematic oppression.  Rather,  systematic oppression is a symptom of racism. Whether or not you are racist isn't determined by who happens to be on top, at the moment.

Everyone on the planet is a human being and imperfect. We can all be subject to bias. When you assert that it's impossible for one demographic to be racist - that's racist.

[Doublepalli]

Oh please, give me a scenario where a person of color is rascist to their oppressors, I'll wait.

[th3kaiser]

This has become a much different argument. Can y'all make a non Armageddon thread about it? I just want to read about my IG racism issues and not debates about whether or not anyone regardless of skin color can be racist.  I'm getting all of this in the real news, this is escapism from our terrible real world.

[Shabago]

Yeah, this clearly ran it's course. Locked.

[Brokkr]

Oh please, give me a scenario where a person of color is rascist to their oppressors, I'll wait.

Han / Uighur is a good example of both sides being non-white. 

[sarcasm] Of course, as Han is the most populous ethnic group in the world, they must be the oppressors in all their relationships, even in the U.S., right? [/sarcasm]

Striking that through (but leaving it, because I'm not about to hide what I've said) because someone educated me a bit more on the issue.  Han/Uighur isn't primarily driven, as I thought, by Han chauvinism (sorry for using a Mao term!), but rather by religion, which is something I was trying to avoid in my example of a group that can be racist themselves in one country (and on a non-white/non-white basis), yet the victims of racism (Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia, US, etc.), on both a historic basis as well as a renewal around Covid-19.