Making learning about Arm interesting for Newbies

[John]

Sorry if this is giving out IC info, but I don't see any difference to it then posting a log

An idea Sanvean gave me on the publicity forum was to have a "Guided Tour". No idea what she meant by that but it gave me an idea.

Basically, there is a LOT of documentation to read and it's boring for newbies. So grabbing the principles of a walkthrough for Allanak (can't find it atm which says something  :roll:) and mud-schools most muds have, I thought having an offline mud-school that introduces newbies to some of the basics would be a good idea.

Here you can find a small sample of what I came up with. Yeah, it looks pretty shoddy but I'm terrible at flash and just wanted to show the main principle behind the idea. (To navigate it click on the blue text. Make sure your mouse is over the text itself or otherwise it won't work )

Basically you choose the city you want to start in and then you chose your type of character your going to play. Then it shows you a room by room guide to the places you'll want to travel to at the start. So it'll show you a couple of stores in the bazaar and a couple of other basic places everyone in the city would know. But it also has information at the bottom about something of the city, related to the description. So in the description there is reference to a slave, so I explained a little bi about slaves in Allanak. You walk past a sideshow so I took it as an opportunity to reinforce the drudgery of life in Zalanthas.

I figure it's better for newbies because:
* It's easy to find a small amount of information on various topics.
* Easy to navigate
* Provides a room by room explanation so if they get lost at first (which most often is completely OOC) they can refer to it.
* It provides relevant information to their character. If someone chooses hunter I'm not going to show them where you buy a merchant token. I'm going to show them where the Salar store is (which most of the populace would know).

I posted pretty much to ask what people thought of the idea and if any newbies who read it, think it would be helpful for them

[adgohan]

In my experience, the recent ideas for global OOC channels, OOC ways to join up in the game, are kind of growing closer to a non-IC environment. When I first joined this MUD, the person who told me about it would NOT let me log in until I read the documentation, the help files, and had the information on the MUD. I was one of the few that actually read all of it, starting with the help files, on to the documentation. When I entered the game, I had absolutely no problem.

I think the main problem is people don't really read the guides, personally, I hate being stuck in a situation where I join a MUD and it automatically puts me through MUD School or something, in a way the acceptance process is a way for immortals to do this indirectly - they tell you some issues with character design and may deny the application and give suggestions. If you read something about templars and submit one, you'll get useful information on why you can't be a templar right off and the help files directing you to templars, you won't just get blown off.

That would be argued with "what if it was an option just when you logged on" - if it was an option it's one of two things, one some newbies wouldn't even go through it (if they didn't read the guides, they'd probably not go through a newbie program) and you'd have the same result, or two you'd have the aforementioned OOC situation. The real issue is rounding out personality and personalizing your character, and that just takes in game time and experience.

I've introduced more than a few people to the MUD, the ones that do join up and read the documentation have no problem logging in and going on with their ideals, these are usually the same people who have been on many MUDs hack and slash and would know how to handle a new situation and that it requires reading some help files. The people that don't read it are people relatively new to MUDs and don't care anyway, maybe have played Baulder's Gate or Everquest where they can just pick it up.

I think that part of the challenge of ArmageddonMUD is that it's like college; you get out of it what you put into it. If you want to have a really serious time you can read all the documentation and go in already adept, if you just want to screw around you can just go in and hope for the best and either pick it up over time or lose fifteen characters doing so. It's a choice, and you can make an in game automatic guide a choice and you'll get the same result, or make it mandatory and at least piss a person's 45th character off that goes in and has to go through it.

Just thoughts.

[John]

I agree with some of what you say adogahn, but there's also the problem that:
1. the website is a monster to navigate. Even I have trouble sometimes if I haven't looked for something in a while.
2. people don't want to invest hours reading the docs and then find out they don't like it after an hour of playing.

I invested an entire week reading all about OtherSpace, then I logged in and found the playing style didn't suit me.

You can either work at making the information easier for newbies or use it as a screening test to get rid of those that aren't dedicated to reading it. I personally think the easier you make the information to newbies the more likely they are to read it. By making it necessary for them to only read a little bit to play, they'll be able to see if they like it and then become more motivated to read more.

Otherwise you just have clueless newbs who travel around completely having no idea, get frustrated and leave while other newbies have a strong(ish) understanding of how Armageddon works.

I think having a bridge between the two somewhere would be better

[Bestatte]

The problem with having your 45th character "stuck" going through this thing can be easily solved: Require it only for 1st-time *accounts* rather than characters. It seems to flow back to the idea I suggested about an ooc area of the game, or a mini Q&A session within the hall of kings to people can test out the game without actually being in the game and possibly disrupting RP.

Remember I wrote possibly. I don't think all newbies are disruptive, and most who are, aren't on purpose. Please don't twist that and assume I mean anything else.

People who are on their 4th or 5th or 90th character wouldn't have to deal with it, because the system would only require you to go through it once per account.

[Dan]

I don't like it.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Im not a big fan of shortcuts and it can be hard, but well, deal.

[Rindan]

Granted, Armageddon is not much of a hand holding MUD, but I am not sure how much more can be done.  Then information to deal with most problems is there, and what isn't clear from the website and help files can be found by posting here.  The stuff is pretty accessible to anyone who spends just five minutes looking.  If someone does not want to spend those five extra minutes looking, I am not sure they are going to look no matter how you try and shove it in their face.

Personally, I think it is just the nature of people.  Some people want to jump in while others want to read help files for a week before getting their feet wet.  I don't really have an issue with the people who jump in.  That is just how some people learn, and I think we should work on helping those people by setting good examples and lending them a hand when they need it.  They usually get around to reading all the information plastered all over the place, but they generally need to be hooked at least a little before they do.  That is a-okay in my opinion.  I know this game rocks and is worth the time, you know this game rocks and is worth the time, but not every newbie arrives knowing that this game rocks and is worth the time.  

The best way for these people to get into the game is to jump in, and for us players to help them when we can.  It might be a simple as pointing to the Byn or Atrium and letting someone else do the teaching.  It might be more hands on where you take a n00b under your wing for an evening.  I think we just have to realize and accept that not everyone who jumps into Armageddon is going to read and comprehend everything they need first.  No matter what we do or what options we give alternative to just jumping in, people are still going to want to do it.  I don't think we should throw up barriers to these people.  I have seen plenty of people step into this game having absolutely no clue what in the hell they were doing, and a few months later blend in as great RPers just like everyone else.

So, want to add another way to learn about the game?  Go for it.  I just don't think we should forcefully beat every newbie that steps foot into the game with our guides and help files.  It would be nice if all the newbies who arrived spent a good week exploring the web site, but that is far from realistic.

[adgohan]

That was basically what I was trying to say but thanks to Rindan's 200+ posts and English PHD he got it across better than I ever could. =P Thanks.

[gfair]

I didn't start playing Arm by reading all the documents, or even most of the documents for that matter.  I learned just enough to make a character and get him approved.  That first character lived for about 30 minutes and I didn't learn much then.  Put together another character, a little improved, and that is when my learning began.

My learning was mostly contextual - I answerd questions as they came up - but also I could read over the general info during slow or off periods, or before or after playing.  This made Arm interesting;  At least I could play and read at the same time, and could use code examples right from the webpage as I came across them.

It was a very enjoyable way of learning Arm, and the notion of reading a lot up front is, frankly, boring.

So an alternative might be a pre-fab character concept, where the characters are given one of dozens of pre-fabricated descriptions and backgrounds so the people can play within mere minutes of making an account, giving them an instant look into Arm.  They could also be sent guidelines, or be referred to new player guidelines if they choose to use this system, with recommendations to learn as they play with that first character.

Only a suggestion, but when I saw people describing how new players learn the game I had to wonder how many read up more than enough to make a character first, before actually beginning to play.

[My 2 sids]

I think for now one of the best ways to get people excited is to show them the submitted logs.  Because the link for the logs is hard to find, I would bet not many use them.  The fact is however these logs are not only excellent examples but really gives the essence of the game itself better than the docs.  

Really, the reason I got board with reading the docs wasn't because I didn't think it was a waist of time, so much as I couldn't really picture how it would come into play.  By reading the logs one can see exactly what will happen in game.   The <so and so> man says, yawning, "I'm tired."  That visual aide was great because it showed exactly what an sdesc is and what it means to say and emote in a say.

[aeshyw]

I read very little before creating my first character.  I regret to say that I chose a description without thinking about how it fit with her background, had no idea how to use the emoting system, knew nothing about the nobility...etc.

I spent my first couple weeks playing walking around waiting to die - since one of the few things that I -did- read on the website said 'expect to die quickly'.  But, because my travels were just between the Gaj and the Trader's Inn, I lived..though I spoke to no one and no one spoke to me.  I watched people emoting and talking and grew more and more intrigued, and frustrated that none of them seemed to even noticed I existed.

Finally, somone started talking to me one day out of the blue.  In a panic, I opened the helpfiles and faked knowing what I was doing as much as I could, pulling -every- newbie error possible in the meantime.  I treated the noble that was talking to me like an equal.  I used 'say' instead of 'talk' at tables.  I was gently corrected a dozen times before I got the most basic sense of the game.

Today, nearly two rl years later, I am still playing that character and I hope that I now give something back to the game rather then just taking.  I'm still grateful to the group that first took the time to interact with me and I hope I wasn't too disruptive and annoying to them.   For those who find 'teaching' to be annoying, I suggest they shouldn't do it.  Point newbies to those who are willing to put up with it.   With very few exceptions, people who have bothered to figure out enough to interact have always seemed very teachable to me.

[Anonymous]

I'll regurgitate what I said in another thread.

What brought me and kept me with Armageddon was the awesome level of IC interaction from day one.  No amount of frustration with the code, inability to remember commands or getting lost could stop me.

If the RP on arm isn't enough to keep players no amount of hand holding will because that's what makes people *REALLY* stay after killing 'rinthers proves unsatisfying.

I for one would have been very turned off by having someone walk me through anything.

If we want to help people to stay make it a little harder for their first PC to die.  Create semi-detailed maps of Allanak and Tuluk, make it impossible for them to have another starting location and don't let them be elves.  For just the first PC.

The maps would show major intersections and big danger signs.  So for Allanak it would show Caravan Way, Meleth's Circle, the bazaar and the wave dunes around Allanak and the 'rinth with big red danger signs.  The rinth and Allanak would be nothing more than big huge blobs without any detail.

[Barzalene]

I think the guided tour is a great idea. Especially because it is offline and in flash. It would be a great tool for showing basic concepts like how to talk and emote and and how to interact with the various stratas of society. I hope John will keep working on it and keep posting links to it so we can watch it develop.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sorry, double post. Read below.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

>Help Map

Code Select Expand

Map of Allanak

This map is incomplete, and shows you how to get to the market and several other important places. These are things any character born within this city would Know.

**********************
*************$++++^++*
*************S+++++++*
*************S+++++++*
*************++++++++*
*************S+++++++*
*************++++++++*
*************K++++++B*
*************++++++++*
*********&&&&++++CCCC*
**%%%%%%%&W***********
*OT*******************
**********************

LEGEND:

O = You can quit here.
T = The Gaj Tavern. You can find a lot of RP here.
% = Caravan Way. A major road in Allanak.
@ = Meleth's Circle. Aanother major road.
W = You can buy water here if you have a skin, which you can buy in the Market. Water is very important here in Armageddon.
+ = Market. You will find stalls, booths, and wandering merchants here.
C = Kadius, a place where you can buy clothes if you will not be an adventuring or warrior type.
S = A place where you can buy weapons and armors.
^ = Tailor. For clothes.
$ = Tailor. For armors.
B = Bank. You can deposit or withdraw your money at this House's banking branchs.
K = Mounts. You can buy animals to ride here.

See also: BUY, SELL, QUIT, SCORE, STAT, ETC, BLAH.....

(NOTE) All those damned * were put in this post because you can't space things correctly. They would not appear in the help file. So, something like this would be better than the current map of Allanak, perhaps?

[crymerci]

I'm not really sure that either of those options are really helpful to the newbie.  I don't really like the idea of a map because I think it encourages people not to read room descriptions.  If you read room descriptions you can often figure out where you are and how to get to things nearby.

John's walk-through, while well-done and informative, would be a little awkward to follow because if you follow it when you're fresh out of the Hall of King, you have to swap back and forth between windows etc.  Also some of the rooms seem to have information that's more for flavor than actual immediate help. I would personally rather see the flavor imparted by the room descriptions themselves, as well as PC, NPC's, etc.

Personally, if I were going to make a newbie-friendly system, I would make it so that the newbie doesn't have to go through a bunch of stuff to get the information that is most immediate to them.  What I think would be helpful is to imbed help into specific rooms themselves: places like the starting points for newbies, i.e. the Gaj dorm or outside the Sanc, telling them where they are and what general direction things are in (east).  So all the newbie has to do is type "look newbie" or "look help" or something, and will get a short paragraph much like the ones John wrote for the Gaj.  This way you don't have to go through and write something up for all those rooms along the road (imagine doing that in Tuluk), you just have to hit the major gathering places, crossroads, and places like watersellers, tailors, and stables.  These snippets could also tell the newbie about pertinent helpfiles they can check out relating to the task at hand.  For example:

Inside a tailor's shop [ES]
{tailor shop room description}
>look newbie
Tailors are available in most cities who, for a fee, will alter your clothing or armor to fit you.  If you OFFER an item of clothing or armor to the tailor, they will tell you (if it is the kind of item they tailor) how much the charge is and how long the alteration will take.  If you then wish to go ahead with the alteration, TAILOR <item>.  For more information: "help tailors" and "help offer".
>offer shirt

This way they have immediate help, but also can get into the habit of looking at helpfiles for the times when the newbie help isn't available or applicable.

[spawnloser]

Problem with that, Venomz, is that not everyone is in Allanak.

I really like crymerci's idea, but I would rather it just point them to a helpfile, so, like you said, they get into the habit of reading them. Or maybe even to a webpage.

I don't much like John's idea though. Sorry, I think a shortcut like that is going to encourage people to stop reading at "creating a character".

It seems a big issue here is navigating the website. It can be downright atrocious, that's why newbies don't want to read the docs, because when they have a specific question, it doesn't seem they can ever find what they want.
Altering the layout of the site, and making sure everything is properly linked (Like the stylesheet, which last I knew was only accesible through the bottom of the item submission page, and is a good doc for everyone to read, even if they're not writing objects or anything.) would probably do mounds to get people to go through them.

I wish I had ideas at the moment for how to make it more... viewable, but I'm tired, and may try again tomorrow.

[creeper386]

The most benificial thing I see. Is a search ability on the website. And a search ability in the helpfiles. The one for the helpfiles should be easiely done for the most part. And just that alone would be a huge benefit for most people.

An ability to acctually search the site... OMG I'd LOVE that.

Creeper

[onomopia]

Ohh no Sanvean is a girl!!!!!!!!!! I never knew! ohhhh the time I was thinking I was talking with just this really cool guy. Sanvean suddenly seems so much more attractice.

[Tamarin]

Sanvean is a girl?  Is it just me, or did it suddenly get a lot hotter in here??  Maybe its just Sanvean...

[Carnage]

Ohh no Sanvean is a girl!!!!!!!!!! I never knew! ohhhh the time I was thinking I was talking with just this really cool guy. Sanvean suddenly seems so much more attractice.

Sanvean is a girl? Is it just me, or did it suddenly get a lot hotter in here?? Maybe its just Sanvean...

Callisto is female. A very, very attractive one who's dated a few Armers. Try sending her a few PMs.

[My 2 sids]

I too really like Crymerci's idea :idea:  :!:

[Bestatte]

I'd still like to see a form of indexing on the main arm website.

Not an index with every single possible thing, but one that's broken down into categories, that include related helpfiles.

The other day I was trying to help a newbie in IM (she hadn't had her first character approved but wanted to learn whatever she could in advance - bless her pointy little head!!!). She was asking about sub-guilds.

I went to the help-files and typed in sub-guilds in the search engine. Nuttin. Tried it without the hyphen. Nuttin. Went to the Intro, the RP guide, all the other places, looking for sub-guilds, NUTTIN, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH.

Now it makes sense that if there are two types of skillsets, and the primary type is called a Guild, then the secondary would be called a sub-guild.

Guess what? It isn't. It's called a sub-CLASS. And so I spent the better part of an hour looking for something that's called something else.

Now imagine how newbies feel when they're still looking up their options for creating their first characters.

My suggestions for an index: First of all, make everything consistent. If there are guilds, then there are sub-guilds. If you wanna call them classes, make the other ones sub-classes.

Then break the whole website down into categories:

Roleplay-related:

What you know about wherever your character starts out.
Emotes and verbal communication (since not everyone knows they're related, include them in a single subject heading!)
Racial Roleplay
Societal Standards in North (Tuluk) and South (Allanak)
Societal Standards everywhere else
Policies on RPing sex/torture: the consent rule
Misc. RP guides

And each of these categories would link to another list, in alphabetical order, that includes every other link on the website that's related to the topic. Then move on to Combat - the combat mechanics in general, the engagement system including flee/assist/rescue/disengage/run/walk/ride, weapon skills, etc. etc. etc.

And then to OOC guides, such as the rules of the game, tips on getting started.

At the very top of this index, the absolute first category in HUGE BOLD LETTERS - NEWBIE INFO - CLICK HERE! With a cross-reference to the top 40 helpfiles, the rules, the absolute minimum stuff that new players need to know to get started and not feel frustrated in their first hour of playing.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it's a lot less work in the long run when newbies can come in running instead of dragging their feet and the feet of everyone who tries to help them. Give them a more efficient and compartmentalized system of reading, and the majority will at least make an attempt to read. This I've seen in other games that have "info trees" such as what I suggest here.

[/list]

[The Lonely Hunter]

Maybe I am odd but one of the things that got me hooked was the website. The wealth of information and how indepth it was really impressed me. While I waited for that first PC I read the whole site twice over, I was hooked.

A 'newbie school' might be a good idea but I am hesitant about it, we did fine without one. While we could use more players, if they need to be spoon fed they prolly arnt the Arm-type.

Just my 'sids.

[My 2 sids]

As Creeper pointed out to me, perhaps my post http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5580 belongs here instead of creating a new thread.  

Sorry about the confusion, I posted it as a new thread for ideas about how to reorganize.