A Real Problem for Newbies

[LindseyBalboa]

As there's been a focus on 'what can we do for newbies' I'd like to share my biggest turn-off with Arm, as a newbie:

Crafting.

Problem: Crafting is so hard and unintelligible for a new player, or at least it was for me. It's geared toward learning as a player, not a character, and applying that knowledge to in-game characters. Crafting is even harder, as a new player, than knowing how to use magic, with the 'symbol' command. Fortunately for me, I'm not a crafting-inclined player, because to this day it still doesn't make sense to me that I have to gather random items and see if I could maybe, maybe make something out of what I purchased or found. And it's even harder at novice levels when there are apparently very few craftable things to skill up on. All of the is an OOC inconvenience, and worse, once you OOCly know you never have to go through trying to find out again with another character.

Solution: Just like the magic system here, or RPGs and crafting in general, once you /have/ the skill to make something, you can see the recipes that you know how to make. This represents your character's in-game knowledge in the game. You'd still have to reach the in-game skill to know the recipes you're able to make, just like you still have to branch parry to be able to parry; you'd still have all the RP of getting to know where those things are found, who can get them, how to get them, haggling for them, going off on your own and getting them, etc. The only difference this would make is that now a new player is on the same level as an old player, OOCly.

[Riev]

Some time ago, I theorized making my own database for crafting. Such that you could have:

a piece of bone (id 2222)

and see all the items it makes, and all the recipes in which id 2222 is a component

I never got far.

[Kyviantre]

I started making an excel spreadsheet...years ago.  So I kind of have Riev's solution.  I don't have id numbers, I just search by either complete item, or ingredients...or by skill.

It is not even close to complete, some skills I've never had characters interested in/access to investigate options for (or one with both!).  But I store the ones I do find for my own personal use.

Not that this would help newbies.  I've never found it hard to find recipes though, and I've always (mostly) enjoyed the challenge - or rather, the delight when randomly pairing stuff makes a recipe I haven't encountered before...but I'll admit, I am weird.  And I agree, for -most- newbies, it is a bit of a lump to get over.  As a player, I do try to share stuff I've made, and let other people see it (if I am crafting with people in a group, and they express interest), so they can grab the recipe too, especially if it is complicated (and I think we share skillsets!).

[triste]

I want to say that the existing mechanism to learn this in game is to use the analyze skill. A member of staff recently said they are considering introducing a merchant that will sell unique, craftable items, and then people would be able to buy the items and analyze them to get recipes.

[oggotale]

Excels are Metagaming though, if it is an acceptable form of MG (since people seem to be chill about saying they do it publicly), why not just share a list with everyone so newbies don't get screwed over?

Or is this one of those situations where MG is desired in that staff wants a character's progress to be linked to the player's OOC knowledge and experience.

[Gentleboy]

As a new player that plays heavy mercantile, I don't mind smooshing things together and seeing what it makes, blindly.

I've also hired other PCs to teach me, ask to see pretty items people have, and try to find a master/apprentice situations.

Arm is not a game that gives easily, but it rewards those who chart and write their findings separately. Just like in DnD. I don't think it's cheating to have a notebook with the things you find.

[Greve]

One of the issues is also that when your skills are low, you fail at everything. A new player might be able to navigate the crafting code enough to figure out that two bits of bone make a thingy, but then they fail that craft ten times in a row and will probably think they're doing something wrong. Chances are you'll need to gain twenty or thirty points in cooking before you can succesfully fry a piece of meat for the first time. You'll go through multiple bolts of cloth before you can produce the most basic thing. You'll leave entire animal species extinct trying to tan one hide.

Crafting for profit is something you begin doing when you've mastered the skill, until then it's a gigantic moneysink that'll completely ruin anyone who doesn't have considerable experience with the game's economy and moneymaking tricks. You have to invest thousands before you begin making any ROI, or hunt/gather for weeks to build up a huge pile of materials. All those poverty-stricken NPC potters and cobblers? They started out rich!

Anyone who ever played a leadership PC in one of the GMHs knows how much you have to babysit a newbie crafter or they'll burn through the entire material stockpile of House Kadius trying to produce anything with which to show you that they're actually working. Often you have to resort to hilariously anti-IC advice like "now, don't work too hard, remember to take some time off to enjoy life!"

Crafting is so merciless and unrewarding at first that a portion of the playerbase has a stance of "I don't play crafters." In many cases, it's because their first experiences with it were miserable enough that they won't try it again. That and the fact that there's whole crafting suites whose products have no demand whatsoever. Leatherworking, anyone? Basketweaving? Featherworking?

[Lizzie]

I've also experienced the opposite of what Greve says, and it's frustrating. Sometimes I'll have a character who can't fail. If you can't fail, you can't progress. So she gets stuck making dozens of tanned chalton hides, and can't ever do anything with them, and can't tan much more of anything else. Sometimes for RL weeks. The grind is only helpful if you fail. This actually seems to happen to me more often than constant failure. And do remember that if you are failing, it means you are also progressing (though if you spam-fail over and over again you won't progress any faster than if you just fail once or twice and then do something else for awhile and return to the project later).

[Harmless]

I actually burn out on crafting roles because of the system's inscrutability.

The solution seems to be for me to favor roles that support other people in other ways besides inane guessing and plugging and chugging and spreadsheets.

Unfortunately, the supporting role options seem to be limited to scouts/spies/crafters. Then there are killers. There aren't too many other ways to support people.

The new brewing system is really an improvement in things and I like that. I would classify it as a modern-type crafting system because of its flexibility and rules. It's also inscrutable, but finding out how it works ICly is definitely possible if you have the right contacts and materials and is satisfying.

The actual crafting system can be silly. Like..a piece of bone of THIS length can be made into all of THAT!? But not THAT bone. Oookay.

[Bogre]

Whilst I think that the system could use some tweaks to make it more accessible to newbies, I don't think it should have the full recipe list just displayed to you.

There's a lot of enjoyment, at least personally, to exploring the system and trying to find different combinations. There's reward in experimentation and gathering diverse resources.

At the outset, maybe something to give newbie crafters a few more recipes that they can rely on to start, maybe randomized from a list of basic intro recipes or something. Still, the analyze command allows characters to figure out recipes from stuff they find - a pretty realistic mechanism.

[Dar]

I liked the solution another mud made for a similar issue.

They had skills called "Lore" for different areas and aspects of the game. And they had a command call remember, or contemplate, or something similar.

Basically they can ponder a city lore and it'd give them a tiny tidbit of some curios thing about that city.

Similarly they can contemplate sword making and recall something about a long agafari branch making something whatever.

Though in all honesty. Crafters are a difficult role. It used to actually say that in merchants class description. Learning the ins and outs for the first time without joining a merchant house is extremely difficult. But maybe that's on purposes.

[Kyviantre]

Learning the ins and outs for the first time without joining a merchant house is extremely difficult.

Have only joined a merchant house once, and that was by accident (not my choice) and not with a crafter.

But it does take some level of support (I've found other indies can be very supportive of newbie crafters), or an element of high risk (going to get your own materials when you know nobody or really where to go).

For me, learning that spam crafting and failing a bunch of times and running through materials, was the MOST important thing to learn.  By far.  I don't even remember how I ended up learning it, back in my newbie days (we are talking 15 years ago), but I found that to be a much more valuable data point to be successful than knowing any recipes.

[Narf]

I liked the solution another mud made for a similar issue.

They had skills called "Lore" for different areas and aspects of the game. And they had a command call remember, or contemplate, or something similar.

Basically they can ponder a city lore and it'd give them a tiny tidbit of some curios thing about that city.

Similarly they can contemplate sword making and recall something about a long agafari branch making something whatever.

This would be an incredible way to disperse all sorts of "Find out IC" information that a character might have. Just make lists and lists of little tidbits of information about the game world and its history, splice 'em up and randomly give them out to characters at character creation, possibly based on their wisdom.

Players would get final say in eliminating things off the list of course if they think their character really wouldn't know it, but ideally the list would be full of things that a person from any walk of life might concievably stumble over.

[Heade]

As someone who has played a lot of crafters, I like the current system. And yes, OOC knowledge gained over time by playin multiple crafters gives you a significant advantage over someone who is playing their first crafter. I don't see that as a problem. It encourages relationships in game between crafters, allowing things like Master/Apprentice relationships to form rather than having every single crafter be an ambitious entrepreneurial business owner extraordinaire(AEBOE), who then competes with every other AEBOE as a rival.

The current system encourages gleaning knowledge from others. It encourages joining clans to have easy access to materials so that you can learn on your own. It encourages interaction.

And because of that, I like the way the current system for learning recipes works. Yes, I believe that metaknowledge in the form of OOCly knowing recipes is perfectly fine to use IG, so long as it makes sense for the character and their background to know this stuff.

I once had a staffer suggest that utilizing the recipe for a custom craft that a previous character of mine had made on a subsequent character was metagaming and shouldn't be allowed because there is no way my current character could have met my previous character. I disagreed that it shouldn't be allowed, because there is nothing that requires you to learn a recipe directly from the person who originally conceived it. You could have stumbled upon one of his products, or upon a copy of one of his products. Or you could have come up with the idea to make the exact same item on your own. There are multiple avenues to end up making the same thing, and just because you submitted the recipe on one of your old characters doesn't mean you should never be allowed to make it on one of your newer characters. After all, in many cases, we're talking about sharpened sticks, here. It's not like a million different people didn't figure out how to sharpen a stick in multiple different parts of the world without having some contact with the world's first stick sharpener.

/endrant

TL:DR -  I like the system how it is, and I'm OK with people using their gained OOC knowledge of recipes to do better on subsequent PCs. It encourages roleplay and interaction.

[LindseyBalboa]

As a new player that plays heavy mercantile, I don't mind smooshing things together and seeing what it makes, blindly.

I've also hired other PCs to teach me, ask to see pretty items people have, and try to find a master/apprentice situations.

Arm is not a game that gives easily, but it rewards those who chart and write their findings separately. Just like in DnD. I don't think it's cheating to have a notebook with the things you find.

While I still stand by what I said, I appreciate the contrasting point of view. I still can't get crafting on here but maybe it's because it's never been my focus enough to delve all in.

[Bebop]

I think the real issue for learning this game is the code.  It's very difficult.  If I had not had someone IRL teaching me the game I'm not sure I could have learned, in fact I know I wouldn't have.

On the front page there needs to be a big ole link that says NEWBIE!?  CLICK HERE!!

And on that one page needs to be a quick cheat sheet of basic commands around speaking, riding, combat, crafting, how to wish up and social norms in the playable cities.

I hate how the docs on the main page require SO much clicking around.  They're super convoluted and when creating a character I find myself clicking around constantly trying to find what I need.  And I've been playing 15 yrs and know what to look for.  The learning curve on this game is tremendous.

Give newbies one page of info where they can easily hop into the game.

[only_plays_tribals]

From a UX/UI perspective... actually yeah. Been a while since I looked at the main page as if I was a newbie.

The big ol' CTA -[NEW PLAYER START HERE] etc as Bebop put it.
Leads to -> Consolidated version of the FAQ/walkthrough

Hell there should be a newbie landing page. You could use that as the landing page and if for whatever reason advertise anywhere, the link could direct new players right to the "Here's How to Start".

[only_plays_tribals]

Oops I messed up, ignore the double post. 

[Bebop]

From a UX/UI perspective... actually yeah. Been a while since I looked at the main page as if I was a newbie.

The big ol' CTA -[NEW PLAYER START HERE] etc as Bebop put it.
Leads to -> Consolidated version of the FAQ/walkthrough

Hell there should be a newbie landing page. You could use that as the landing page and if for whatever reason advertise anywhere, the link could direct new players right to the "Here's How to Start".

My idea is basically something they can keep open as they play.  I can't imagine trying to learn the code and ins and outs of this game.  Or something like they can hear someone in game talk about Kadius and be ctrl + f Kadius and go oh okay the clothing merchants.

[KittenLicks]

From a UX/UI perspective... actually yeah. Been a while since I looked at the main page as if I was a newbie.

The big ol' CTA -[NEW PLAYER START HERE] etc as Bebop put it.
Leads to -> Consolidated version of the FAQ/walkthrough

Hell there should be a newbie landing page. You could use that as the landing page and if for whatever reason advertise anywhere, the link could direct new players right to the "Here's How to Start".

My idea is basically something they can keep open as they play.  I can't imagine trying to learn the code and ins and outs of this game.  Or something like they can hear someone in game talk about Kadius and be ctrl + f Kadius and go oh okay the clothing merchants.

While I think better stuff for newbies is great, I'm going to be a pain and point out that we do actually have that last bit already. > help kadius in game brings up:

"House Kadius is one of the three great Merchant Houses that have survived the test of time to grow into one of the most powerful clans in the Known World."

As a newbie I'd constantly be trying >help mid-conversations to try to figure out what people are talking about.

That being said, a few of the helpfiles have weird names and are a bit bothersome to access fast. "Arm of the dragon" is one example, given nobody ever calls them that. Spamming >help arm >help the arm >help The Arm while being interrogated by someone in the Arm is not a good time.

[Riev]

It is a separate topic, perhaps, but I would be an advocate for a help system that allowed partials.

"Your search for "the arm" returned these top 10 results. To see any individual one, please enter help Arm of the Dragon as the full title."

The web-help is OKAY at this, though sometimes I wonder how good the full-text search is.

[Dar]

Mansa newbie guide is an excellent resource.


Is it possible to add a hint prompt. Where the mud sends you a blurb of text every 10 minutes that passed without verbal or emote text. Just to aim a noob towards things he might find useful, but didn't know to ask about.

[Kyviantre]

Is it possible to add a hint prompt. Where the mud sends you a blurb of text every 10 minutes that passed without verbal or emote text. Just to aim a noob towards things he might find useful, but didn't know to ask about.

As long as non-newbies can turn it off.  As an off-peaker, I will occasionally idle somewhere public/obvious for 1-2 hours, waiting for RP to find me, and if nobody is around to Way, that means I don't input text   I approve of the idea, but a toggle switch to turn off hints would be appreciated!

[Dar]

Definitely should be toggled on/off

[Zalanthan]

Regarding the challenges newbies face with crafting, I agree with the below:

I want to say that the existing mechanism to learn this in game is to use the analyze skill.

Still, the analyze command allows characters to figure out recipes from stuff they find - a pretty realistic mechanism.

However, I thought I'd give a quick warning to newbies and fellow born-again newbies.  The Analyze help file says you will receive the "You cannot tell how that is made" echo for an item you don't have the coded skill to make.  You get no echo at all for an uncraftable item (confirmed again in the Notes section: If you don't receive a response, the object you are analyzing is not craftable).

Yet I know for certain there are some uncraftable items that will display "You cannot tell how that is made", making it appear to the newbie like the issue is with their coded skill and not that the object is truly uncraftable.  I don't think I've come across an example of the no echo situation since I've returned.  Personally, I think it would be helpful to reinstate the no echo - or even better, change it to "This item is uncraftable" so the PC knows it's just not possible, even if they had made alternative choices in chargen.

[Lizzie]

Regarding the challenges newbies face with crafting, I agree with the below:

I want to say that the existing mechanism to learn this in game is to use the analyze skill.

Still, the analyze command allows characters to figure out recipes from stuff they find - a pretty realistic mechanism.

However, I thought I'd give a quick warning to newbies and fellow born-again newbies.  The Analyze help file says you will receive the "You cannot tell how that is made" echo for an item you don't have the coded skill to make.  You get no echo at all for an uncraftable item (confirmed again in the Notes section: If you don't receive a response, the object you are analyzing is not craftable).

Yet I know for certain there are some uncraftable items that will display "You cannot tell how that is made", making it appear to the newbie like the issue is with their coded skill and not that the object is truly uncraftable.  I don't think I've come across an example of the no echo situation since I've returned.  Personally, I think it would be helpful to reinstate the no echo - or even better, change it to "This item is uncraftable" so the PC knows it's just not possible, even if they had made alternative choices in chargen.

Actually if you get "You cannot tell how that is made" it could mean that it's probably only craftable if you're in a certain clan, and you're not in that clan. I believe VALUE will help you see who/what makes the item. Even if you're a master crafter, if you're not in that clan (or your character is not that race), then your character won't ever be able to craft it. It'll be craftable - just not by you.

[Zalanthan]

Actually if you get "You cannot tell how that is made" it could mean that it's probably only craftable if you're in a certain clan, and you're not in that clan. I believe VALUE will help you see who/what makes the item. Even if you're a master crafter, if you're not in that clan (or your character is not that race), then your character won't ever be able to craft it. It'll be craftable - just not by you.

The Analyze help file says you will receive the "You do not recognize its craftsmanship" echo for those instances.  So if you are getting the "You cannot tell how that is made" echo for that result as well, it sounds like the Analyze help file may be misleading on clan-specific items too.  I haven't personally tried to analyze any clan-specific items (at least, not to my knowledge), but I can definitely confirm the issue with uncraftable items producing the wrong echo.

[Lizzie]

Actually if you get "You cannot tell how that is made" it could mean that it's probably only craftable if you're in a certain clan, and you're not in that clan. I believe VALUE will help you see who/what makes the item. Even if you're a master crafter, if you're not in that clan (or your character is not that race), then your character won't ever be able to craft it. It'll be craftable - just not by you.

The Analyze help file says you will receive the "You do not recognize its craftsmanship" echo for those instances.  So if you are getting the "You cannot tell how that is made" echo for that result as well, it sounds like the Analyze help file may be misleading on clan-specific items too.  I haven't personally tried to analyze any clan-specific items (at least, not to my knowledge), but I can definitely confirm the issue with uncraftable items producing the wrong echo.

Oh that's right it was changed! I've gotten the "you cannot tell" message more than I ever get that "you don't recognize" message.

[rinthrat]

I believe you always get "You cannot tell how X was made." now. That help file needs to be updated.

I don't like this change much. Yes, your character wouldn't know why they can't replicate something, but it gave the player some useful information about an awkward code issue. There is no IC reason your knife maker could make fany knife X but not shitty obsidian knife Y, and it was helpful for the player to know that there's just no crafting recipe (instead of a super secret way of some clan to make shitty obsidian knives).

[th3kaiser]

My real complaint with that is some of those items don't seem like they'd use any sekrit methods and the reason we can't make them are because they're flagged. Someone start letting me make knockoff Salarri arrows plz. Genuine Solarri arrows for sale in Cenyr! Low low prices!

[Krath]

My real complaint with that is some of those items don't seem like they'd use any sekrit methods and the reason we can't make them are because they're flagged. Someone start letting me make knockoff Salarri arrows plz. Genuine Solarri arrows for sale in Cenyr! Low low prices!

+1

[Dracul]

My real complaint with that is some of those items don't seem like they'd use any sekrit methods and the reason we can't make them are because they're flagged. Someone start letting me make knockoff Salarri arrows plz. Genuine Solarri arrows for sale in Cenyr! Low low prices!

+1

Could be great, could even give something extra for salaar to engage with!


... Overall, fully agreeing with the initial post of this threat. I'm not even sure why...but I enjoy using the crafting system...but I only recently started discovering some basic crafting combos...that make sense...yet, when paired with another thing that makes sense does not compute, so it's silly, frustrating, and relies on ooc code knowledge more than anything.

[HavokBlue]

I've played this game for a decade now and I've still never skilled up a crafter and only play them in clans that I know post recipe lists because I still don't know how to target recipes with tricky keywords and I'm too afraid to ask.

[Hauwke]

I've played this game for a decade now and I've still never skilled up a crafter and only play them in clans that I know post recipe lists because I still don't know how to target recipes with tricky keywords and I'm too afraid to ask.

You can use the numbers now, So like, craft bone into #1 or whatever the specific syntax is.

[perfecto]

This thread has got me laughing a bunch of times now (all for good reasons)

It's funny how collectively we must have a hundred years of time played on this game and even the vets still aren't sure what the hell we're doing sometimes.

Realistically the crafting code isn't a problem that should be made easier.  It's a puzzle to be solved for those with the mentality to sit and take the time to figure it out.  Let be real this is a long haul game, not something you finish in a week.  The fun of this game comes with figuring it out as you go.  Remembering back to when I first played it took me weeks/months just to figure out how to get across town and then back to where I started lol.

[HavokBlue]

For what it's worth, I've never been dissuaded from playing the game by the crafting code. It's just easier to play PCs that get to boss the ones with the crafting skills around.

[Delirium]

Oh, I know this one!

The analyze results were updated via a code release but the helpfile was not updated in tandem.

It used to be you could tell apart craftable and non craftable items by the echo you got when using analyze.

This is no longer the case. You won't get a blank return any longer even if something is not craftable.

You will just get "You cannot tell how that is made."

[JBlack]

I'd like a quieter playstyle if i tried again.. tbh crafting isnt that unintuitive and youcan learn by buyinng stuff. What my problem is.. was conflict... Nonstop!! From start to end of last character people were on my ass. I understood why for some case and not for others.. It's stressful.

[SomeElf]

I'd like a quieter playstyle if i tried again.. tbh crafting isnt that unintuitive and youcan learn by buyinng stuff. What my problem is.. was conflict... Nonstop!! From start to end of last character people were on my ass. I understood why for some case and not for others.. It's stressful.

Was that in a merchant house or as an indie?

[JBlack]

This one was indy, had plenty of shit in gmh though too.... one of my favs was dwarf who tried to raid me then threw feces at me. Friends said today I can be provocetive. Maybe its me.. Enormous time investments is another problem that I think the new classes systems tries to address. The dude I made shot up in skills, when i had a 17 day played ranger who had a jman in weapons. Fast is better because less time initially grinding should mean more rp.