Okay, don't tell me it is...

[spawnloser]

...but the North is not as dangrous outside as the South is.

You wanna know what I want to see out there?  More bahamets...more halflings...halflings travelling in groups like gith or gortok.

The reason I suggest this, is that as far as I can tell, half the young population in Tuluk is people that want to be independant hunters.  We need to put the fear of outdoors in these people!

[Jacques]

Sounds like fun! Either that or you need a good, solid group of raiding PCs to inflict some 0WN463 on the n00bz!  :twisted:


Note to self... do not make independent hunter in Tuluk for next character....

[picklehead]

I'd rather make the south less dangerous. Less gith packs, etc. Cluttering up the north with greater numbers of bahamets, halflings, and other nasties would severely limit the ability to RP a successful solo hunter. The north IS currently dangerous depending on what areas you choose to hunt and how careful/prepared you are in doing such. Having the "fear of the outdoors" put into me by a horde of uber npcs doesn't much appeal to me.

[Ayashah]

I have to agree with Picklehead. There is also a difference in enviroment where the south is desert. Food doesnt grow easier there. Things are more aggressive in trying to find food. The north is more plentiful and there is more game for the 'predators' to feast on.

Basically, all 'ubering' up pcs around the north would do is drive more people to play in the city/clans just to live. Which is currently what has to happen down south.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

The first question you might want to ask yourself is: Is it necessary that all parts of any game world be equally as dangerous? And if so, why?

I'm interested in hearing your (or anyone else's) response.

[jhunter]

I agree, adding more npc dangers is not the way to go.
Packs of halflings?
I've seen just a pair of halflings mess some people up before.
As if packs of gortoks aren't about enough...sometimes see six or more hanging about together...certain death to a solo pc who does not steer clear of them.
The simple fact that you cannot play a hunter type down south is why I don't play there unless I plan to make a city-dweller.
No point in making an outdoor type of char down south, you are almost guaranteed to die early on no matter how smart and cautious you play it.

[spawnloser]

I'm not saying packs of halflings...I'm saying more...have them group up.  I didn't say groups of five.  Two is good enough.  I know of a character that squishes them for fun.  There is something wrong with this.  I'm not saying that all areas should be equally dangerous...I just think the North needs to be more dangerous.  In response to those saying to tame down the South instead?  No.  The world isn't dangerous enough as it is.

[Anonymous]

Please.  No.

The idea of an independent hunter is a dead concept in Allanak for all the time I've put in there ever since black beetles became so tough.  Its even worse in Red Storm.

I think the North is just about right where it is.  The south, IMHO, needs a reduction in the proliferation of a few beasties which can just mangle the hell out of you.

[jhunter]

This char that squishes them for fun...have they been around for a while?
It doesn't seem too far fetched to me that they might do this if so, people that know they can kill a bear will go out and do it for sheer sport.

[creeper386]

Personally, I think the North is too happy huggy stupid fucks. But thats just the PCs. Already the northern wilderness seems to be becoming a second southern desert with alot of trees. It's rather sad. I don't like it, at all. It feels completely different now.

The wilderness shouldn't be easy like it was, but it shouldn't be sure death up there like it almost always is in the south.


Creeper

[Quirk]

Spawnloser, what are you wanting to see? Almost no-one hunting at all, as is pretty much the case down south (or was before our last newbie influx...)?

A decently old warrior will have the same kind of capabilities as a newbieish hunting party of three or four. Hence, if you want a level where a hunting party of that number are fairly safe, you'll have to put up with the odd character capable of hacking down halflings easily.

I think the bar up north is set about right. Yes, solo hunters can survive. Most of them don't survive long though, I'd bet. There are likely a dozen corpses littering the wilderness for every old hunter.

The south is if anything too hard. The risks in the desert are absurdly high. It takes very little bad luck to wipe out most of a hunting party. Because of the need for combat ability, rangers stand little chance if they are inexperienced and lack a warrior to help them.

What's the end result? People give up, make city characters down south instead that, if they steer clear of conflict, can last for ages. If there's a need for more danger, it's in city life, not in the wastes.

Quirk

[Rindan]

I wouldn't mind the North becoming nasty, but I would prefer it be done in a way other then making more NPCs you have to hack and slash through.  Put up more obsticals that a ranger could over come but a warrior would have a hard time dealing with would be where I would want to see it go.  I always envisioned the North has being more lush, but being more 'toxic'.  In other words, it might be more lush, but it might also be that everything has some form of poison or another.  It is a place where you wouldn't want to take a nap unless you know what you were doing.  You wouldn't go nibble on the plants unless you were ready for the consequences.  A prepared ranger would have half a dozen anti-poison tablets at all times.  Of course, that is just my interpretation.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I think the North is too happy huggy stupid fucks. But thats just the PCs.

I've decided that anyone who says anything remotely resembling this is mildly to severly retarded.

I had a PC in Allanak for a couple RL months, during which time a few mildly interesting things happened.  A few people died, but mainly during RPTs.  I had a PC in Tuluk for two RL weeks, during which time there was more intrigue, more assassination attempts, and more PC-related death than two months in Allanak.  I don't even have a character in Tuluk anymore, and I still find myself occasionally embroiled in Tuluki-based plots.

Actually, now that I think about it, anyone who says this is more than welcome to stay in Allanak, and say whatever they want about Tuluk.  Ignorant savages.

</bitter rant>

[Quirk]

Personally, I think the North is too happy huggy stupid fucks. But thats just the PCs.

I've decided that anyone who says anything remotely resembling this is mildly to severly retarded.

I had a PC in Allanak for a couple RL months, during which time a few mildly interesting things happened.  A few people died, but mainly during RPTs.  I had a PC in Tuluk for two RL weeks, during which time there was more intrigue, more assassination attempts, and more PC-related death than two months in Allanak.  I don't even have a character in Tuluk anymore, and I still find myself occasionally embroiled in Tuluki-based plots.

I never thought I'd say this, but... I agree with creeper386.

I've seen the North from many different angles over a lot of its recent history. I've played a noble, I've played a dirt-grubber, I've played shy retiring characters and aggressive argumentative ones. On the noble level, I didn't really get to experience the "nice" problem as a problem, 'cos people tend to be friendly round nobles. But from the other end, chars in the North are usually pretty darn inadequate at conveying the harshness of the world. A beggar would make a pretty good living; you don't have to be a beggar for people who don't know you to give you stuff. As for intrigue, well, it crops up from time to time in the North, but it's nothing like the constently fermenting cauldron of the South. I appreciate that Guest may have stumbled on a rare patch of it up North and been in the wrong place in the South, but generally the real deal is found South, not North.

Don't take your two weeks experience as the general case, Guest. Every now and then the North blows up and something happens. Most of the time it's pretty low on intrigue. And the point Creeper was actually making, about the open friendly attitude of the Tuluki characters toward people they don't know, is a very very valid one. People who start conflict are frowned upon as disruptive, not watched eagerly for signs of weakness that can be capitalised on. 'Nak contains far fewer trustworthy people than Tuluk.

Quirk

[Sneaky Tuluki]

You can -act- civil and trusting when that is not the case Quirk, not at all.

And who says people aren't looking for weaknesses to exploit?

No guest, it is -not- an isolated incident what you experienced up north, for I have experienced it too in alot of different and interesting ways rather than people just openly being aggressive and outwardly trying to create conflict with others...perhaps Quirk did not get involved in any of it because it wasn't out in the open for all to see whether they were involved or not.
Tuluk is not 'nak, in Tuluk everything is done with style in mind and conflict is dealt with in an artistic way rather than just say Fuck you  and start a bar fight or kill them in the streets.
I agree with you Guest...anyone who says this crap, which is what it is, is probably mildly to severely retarded.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Currently playing an independent Tuluki hunter (yes, I know, I hate Tuluk, but what can I say? My original starting location sort of exploded, and I didn't have many options...)

Anyways, my character gets his ass handed to him on a regular basis. Certainly not with the frequency he would down South, but I -really- don't think the Northlands were meant to be as harsh as the South.

Really, if my character is smart, cautious and doesn't take any stupid risks, he lives well enough, albeit poor as dirt. The second he takes a risk, however, he gets beat down. That's a really fun enviroment for me, personally. I'm having a blast.

With that said, here's some stuff I'd like to see:
Halflings grouped: I don't care if a lone halfling is a beast right now, that's okay. The thing is they are sentient, relatively intelligent beings, and there is absolutely no IC reason for them to not ban together, unless it's part of their culture or they're all anti-social or something. I think big, tough raiding party halflings would get the message across to all these frolicking hunters, and give the local miltia and mercenary groups something to do as well.

More 'subtle' dangers: Falling off cliffs, poisonous critters, poisonous plants, rough terrain... It's all good. We don't neccasarily need more bahamets to show the roughness of the scrub.

Less bunny-hugging: Okay, not bunny-hugging, but I would like to see your average Tuluki be a bit grittier. Look, if you meet a snaggle-toothed, trash-talking, one-eared halfbreed who hasn't bathed in his life time out in the middle of the scrub, are you really going to want to stop and chat with him? Maybe you will, I'll give you that. But will you address him as your equal, espicially if you're garbed in silks or nicely-polished armor? I mean, really people, if we're away from Tuluk with no noble to slap us on the wrists, you can feel free to rob, murder, rape, steal from, insult, punch, poison, mind-bend, shoot, kick, tease and torment me.

And before some one says 'But Tulukis are subtle!', please keep in mind that only a mind-bending elven persuasion master of d00m can hide their emotions all the time. If you hate elves, and you meet an elf, you're not -always- going to have the patience to sit down with it, chat with it, and -then- stab it in the back. I mean, really, if you've had a rough day, who wouldn't want to just cut straight to the stabbing?

[Dakkon Black]

Soo soo true fivedismonk

The thing I hate the most is that all these people that do not have can artist as a sub guild think they can lie and emote thier lies flawlessly without the other person having a clue.

What would be cool?

test lie elf

you test for a lie

The elf see's

Are you lying?  Yes or No.

Yes

Then you see depending on your skill and the elves at lying  

The elves eyes shift uncomfortably

The elf remains unmoving

The elf seems calm an unperturbed

The elf is sweating like fuckin crazy

And a whole bunch of possible echoes that the player could RP off of. Of course it would be up to the elf to RP properly and type yes or no but I think most of our playerbase is decent in that. That way the chance of lying your face off is more hardcoded to what your char could really do.

But thats a perfect world and there are a ton of flaws. Which I wont type out but sit here and punish myself for thinking.

[Lazloth]

Hey, it's not April yet.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hey, it's not April yet.

*snicker*

[Anonymous]

Guild are there for a set of skills...just because you don't have the con artist sub-guild doesn't mean that you can't lie convincingly.
Guilds -do not- determine how you play your char.
Just as stats -do not- really matter.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I would like to see your average Tuluki be a bit grittier. Look, if you meet a snaggle-toothed, trash-talking, one-eared halfbreed who hasn't bathed in his life time out in the middle of the scrub, are you really going to want to stop and chat with him?

Two things I want to address.  One, I've always envisioned Tuluk as a bit farther along, culturally, than Allanak, say about as much as the Reinessance was an improvement over the Medieval times.  I'm not equating the cultures to the Reinessance or Medieval times, mind.  Just saying the cultural gap between the two feels about the same.  So I'd actually like to see your average Tuluki be a cut above your average 'Nakki.  Yeah, they're still groundlings, but at least they go to the occasional play.

Two, I'm not sure who you've been running into, but my time spent as a half-elf in Tuluk resulted in a whole lot of disdain, name-calling, and shunning.  I guess the reaction of others somewhat depends on the circumstances as well.  If you've got a hood up, someone might well talk to you who normally wouldn't if they could see that you were a half-breed, but that's just one circumstance.

Something else to factor in is the large number of newer players.  I've noticed an influx of them up north, and it skews the traditional reactions somewhat until they get used to the game world.

[Gar]

With that said, here's some stuff I'd like to see:
Halflings grouped: I don't care if a lone halfling is a beast right now, that's okay. The thing is they are sentient, relatively intelligent beings, and there is absolutely no IC reason for them to not ban together, unless it's part of their culture or they're all anti-social or something. I think big, tough raiding party halflings would get the message across to all these frolicking hunters, and give the local miltia and mercenary groups something to do as well.

I have seen halflings grouped together and I have also seen gith grouped together (I'm not talking only recently either, I'm talking in the past four months or so).  I have been much more exposed to the north and the instances of halflings grouping is certainly less but it happens.  I don't think it's IC to say that in order for a group of NPC's to animate, you need to have an imm involved.  This is the case with both the gith and halflings.  The gith encounters were certainly good but the halfling ones were unique and extremely interesting too.

...I'd like to see:
More 'subtle' dangers: Falling off cliffs, poisonous critters, poisonous plants, rough terrain... It's all good. We don't neccasarily need more bahamets to show the roughness of the scrub.

Got most of them.  You have to look around a little harder I guess.

[Angela Christine]

The apparent level of danger partly depends on the actual danger, but also on how you play, who you play with, and what you know or believe.

Some people would rather mine obsidian than salt, because they are more afraid of the creatures that live in the salt flats east of Allanak than the ones that live in the desert west of Allanak.  ICly and OOCly, both are very dangerous and can kill you quite nicely.  Some people believe, ICly and OOCly, that it is impossible to play a solo ranger in the south, so they don't.  I was curious, so I tried it out and managed to get several solo rangers to 3 days play time, eventually they make a mistake and die, but that is also true in the north.  Ok, I actually played 20 or 30 southern rangers to get a few that lived as much as 3 days, but I was trying to see if it was actually impossible, or just really hard.  :roll:  My point is that what you believe about a place will influence how much danger you feel that you are in.

Once you've eaten a poisonous fruit and died, you'll probably find reasons for future characters to -not- taste that fruit.  Once you've tried to climb down a hole in the ground only to find that it was a very long and unclimbable fall, you probably won't make your next character so curious about what is down in the hole.  Once you know that a nice, cozy cave you found is haunted by a dangerous spirit, you probably won't go back or send future characters in to investigate it.  You learn where the "subtle" dangers are, and then you avoid them.  Quixotically the more you learn about the dangers the safer the world seems, probably because the unknown is more frightening than a known threat.

If you travel with an experienced group or clan, you may not know about these dangers and never encounter them because your companions know about them.  Your buddy tells you not to eat that fruit, he tells you not to climb in that hole, or not to enter that cave.  He might choose to stay leagues away from these attractive dangers, so that you never even see the hole or know it is there.  An experienced guide can take all the fun out of the wilderness.  

AC

[Malifaxis]

This char that squishes them for fun...have they been around for a while?

The PC in question was doing it at day 5.  DAY FIVE.

And I would like to, in method of getting the damn thread on track again, pose this question:

Why in the bloody hell should ANYONE, of ANY RACE or TRIBE or GUILD or SUBGUILD or WHATEVER be able to go out and be an independent damn hunter from day one?  That's ridiculous, imho.  Zalanthas is SUPPOSED to be a fuck you up with chainsaws type of world.  If people want to be indie hunters, they should be forced to make a pack of damn people, go out and TRY to hunt for a while, lose a few friends to vicious beasties, and then those that survive MAY be able to make it alone.

Allanak, imho, should not have the vicious beasties toned down, but they SHOULD have an increase in things those beasties would live off of.  More jozhal, some smaller spiders maybe, some new raptors, a fuckton more scrab... you know, something like a FOOD CHAIN.  If I have to play eco-strategist for this mud, I will... damnit.

The reason Allanak is not a solo hunting area is because there's not a damn thing to hunt down there that won't mangle you.  In Tuluk (happy f'ing bunny land indeed, and it is, deny it if you want but the fact remains that if you deny it YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG) there is a food chain.  The vestric are eaten by the gortok, the gortok are eaten by the tembo, the tembo are eaten by the halflings... blah blah blah.  There are things you can hunt down there that WONT kill you straight away...  but if you get stupid, you can easily run in to something that will devour your mercilessly.  As opposed to Allanak... where you *might* see a jozhal.  Other than that, it's beetles, spiders, and gith, OH MY!  Oh yeah, and the ocassional scrab.

Malifaxis
-Who will, soon after his current PC dies, be putting up a post to begin a group of exclusively northern fucking raiders, in order to, hopefully, add some goddamn fear to the area... since the halflings dont, and the packs of gortok don't, and the tembo don't, and the 'level of dangerous subterfuge' is about as deadly as a foam dagger.
-Who also has the balls to state his opinions and views without the need of an anon flag.  

Oh yeah, and creeper386 is not fucking retarded, severely or mildly.  He's special, yes, but not retarded.

[creeper386]

Wow... I thought Malifaxis up there was Carnage or maybe Venomz. Go Malifaxis! You tell them.


Creeper

[jhunter]

So why don't the people who keep bitching about the north being "happy fucking bunny land" quit bitching about it and -do- something about it?
But it's not supposed to be Allanak and rightfully -shouldn't- be it's a different type of society all together.

The fact that the north -has- an ecosystem is what really turns me on about it.

I completely agree that the south needs more added to create an ecosystem rather than just toning down the beasts...give them something to eat besides pcs maybe?

The 1 day char thing shouldn't matter...your char is supposed to have been around for a while IC, whether or not they have been played for 1 day or ten, playing intelligently or foolishly will still determine whether or not you will continue to live.
That's like saying your 1day old char, who lived in Tuluk their whole life, IC isn't supposed to know where The Sun-King's Sanctuary is because OOC they are only 1day old.
If your char possesses the skill and it is IC for -your char- to do what they do, then so be it.