Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I think the no hide flag on rooms that it makes sense to have it is a great idea. Also, bonus and penalty for other rooms where it makes sense seems good. Just those two adjustments would solve most of the problems here. I also think some skills, such as scan, and possibly sneak, should have to be typed every time you want to do it. 'Look' is just a cursory look around, while 'scan' is a careful look around. And once I'm hidden, I should have to 'sneak' <direction> every time. (except when shadowing) And if it isn't like this already, a walking person should eventually outdistance a shadowing one. All minor changes and would solve a bunch of these issues, IMHO.

[Dune Bunny]

While you're correct on all accounts, implementing all that in this way will make compound infiltration impossible, period. They will all be fortresses of solitude. No climbing up into windows, no climbing down the chimneys, no nothing. Because those entrances are not coded. They exist virtually! but they're not coded.

So there is a balance. Yes, shadowing someone past the guard is a little bit weird. But so is inability to climb into a window. I also get into security guarded, buzz code locked condo buildings without permission all the time. Basically daily. Not as a requirement, but more as an accident.  So it's not an impossibility. It just requires a little bit less open mindedness.

While the majority I've seen aren't described as large enough for a human to fit through, I'd have no problem whatsoever with windows and the like being climbable to. Though, I'd also prefer to see a vnpc reaction to random dudes deciding to spiderman walls up to people's homes.  XD

That said, a lack of coding in that area shouldn't mean that other areas should be slack, in the name of fairness. Armageddon is harsh, blah blah, etc. Walking into the wrong room could mean an insta-gib. A bad roll in combat could mean an unpredictable death. Fighting a mekillot solo is almost certainly a gory death. Stealth, as something that can be an ultimate game-changer, shouldn't really be safe from it either. If you're going to take the chance to try and get into someone's home to rob, and/or kill them, something that is extremely easy to do under the current code (apartments seem to be a barren wasteland because of it), then you should be aware of, and accepting those risks, instead of knowing that the (advanced)/(master) beside your skill is going to guarantee a free ride in. I'd even go so far as to say that having (master) in a stealth skill imparts the knowledge to be like, "You crazy? I'm not following Tressy into that building".

As for getting into places on a daily basis, I'm going to assume you're not running around hooded, with weapons hanging off your back/belt, crouched and sneaking around, and drawing suspicion like you're doing something wrong? 

[Dar]

All I'm saying is to be careful what you wish for.

If you make shadowing someone past the guards/doors impossible. That will literally cut down on 99% of all compound infiltration.  I do suggest we fix this only when climbing over a fence becomes feasible as well.  I can understand you think the current stealth model is overpowered. But so far, the solutions offered do not just balance stealth. They murder it. 

[Heade]

Yeah, I'm not really for any of that. I don't care to see it become any more difficult to get past guards. Realistically, with said guards being there 24/7, there will be times when they reach for a piece of ginka pie or something, or are otherwise distracted, providing an opportunity to slip past.

All I'd really like to see change is:

1. liberal use of the "no_hide" flag in hallways.
2. a script that notifies people and sets them to auto-watch you if you shadow them into an apartment
3. making "no_hide" flags visible to players.

I think these 3 changes would significantly help alleviate issues regarding the stealth system. I'd imagine that the one that would take the most development time would be number 2, but I have an idea on how to code that which would be fairly easy. Basically, just using an invisible entity that procs an effect any time someone shadows another person in the room. You'd have to place one such entity in each apartment. Aside from procing the effect, said entity wouldn't be interactable or visible. But this would likely be the easiest way to implement such a system as to differentiate an apartment from other rooms.

[Mercy]

Just to clarify what I'd like to see most although I feel like I'm being redundant here.

No_hide flags where appropriate, with a corresponding fail message for either trying to sneak into the room or hide in it while there (I'd want sneaking into a no_hide room to STOP you from moving, not simply walk you in and reveal you).

Scan being made more consistent with a persistent set value for the duration (i'd like the value to be on an independent timer to avoid scan spamming, although the delay might be a sufficient deterrent, i don't know).

The ability to search a (lets assume indoors) room for someone who is hiding. This should be an obvious and slow process, with repeated echos so there is plenty of time and warning to run away or prepare before discovery.

Lastly, the ability to point out a hidden person either to the room at large (default) or to a specific person. The latter being more akin to an hmote.

I do not want to murder stealth. I definitely don't even want to think about npc interaction with stealth, because over-tuning in that regard kills things much more quickly and completely than giving PCs more agency.

[Qzzrbl]

The ability to search a (lets assume indoors) room for someone who is hiding. This should be an obvious and slow process, with repeated echos so there is plenty of time and warning to run away or prepare before discovery.

Lastly, the ability to point out a hidden person either to the room at large (default) or to a specific person. The latter being more akin to an hmote.

If nothing else, these.

Successfully catching a stealthy thing with a perception skill but still being unable to meaningfully interact with it because you don't have master scan is on a new level of tilting.

[Riev]

He's right there? Can't you see him? That's not a pile of coats, that's an actual 'rinthi with their blades out? Come on. How close do you need to get? Its right there?

-- Some hunting dog, probably, telling you where the dead bird is.

[Doublepalli]

All I'm saying is to be careful what you wish for.

If you make shadowing someone past the guards/doors impossible. That will literally cut down on 99% of all compound infiltration.  I do suggest we fix this only when climbing over a fence becomes feasible as well.  I can understand you think the current stealth model is overpowered. But so far, the solutions offered do not just balance stealth. They murder it.

I agree with Dar. Genuine stealthies likely aren't heavy combat. It's all they have. We have full guilds + magick subguilds, to the point you could get mon-fireballed from an ethereal krathi, or summon drovian pets while ethereal, classes that can OHK via archery or backstab, juggernauts in combat, templars or others that can see hidden pcs anyway.

We're not nerfing any of that. Why take away the one thing a true stealthy has....where one mistake, or one unlucky crit fail leaves you with a dead PC, or you're ousted for the playerbase - And If I was playing a stealthy, I wouldn't give the PC's the benefit of the doubt that they'd roleplay. They'd spam run, close their packs, emote staring down the room, back to the bar etc etc

[Qzzrbl]

I agree with Dar. Genuine stealthies likely aren't heavy combat. It's all they have. We have full guilds + magick subguilds, to the point you could get mon-fireballed from an ethereal krathi, or summon drovian pets while ethereal, classes that can OHK via archery or backstab, juggernauts in combat, templars or others that can see hidden pcs anyway.

Stealth and most everything you've mentioned here are not mutually exclusive. Especially backstab and ranged combat.

Also try not to bring up magick, since balance between mundane and magick methods are generally on two completely different playing fields.

Why take away the one thing a true stealthy has....where one mistake, or one unlucky crit fail leaves you with a dead PC, or you're ousted for the playerbase - And If I was playing a stealthy, I wouldn't give the PC's the benefit of the doubt that they'd roleplay. They'd spam run, close their packs, emote staring down the room, back to the bar etc etc

To an extent, it's kinda already like that tho, as far as unlucky crit fails and pbase ousting go.

Adding a method to reveal hidden things that your PC can see is just adding another method to do so that isn't "kill shadow".

Adding a slow and methodical way to search a room for that dumb pickpocket that's failed steal on you twice but you can't see because near-magick hide (master) likely won't catch him, but it will present a realistic threat, a reminder that he's not actually invisible.

[Nameless Face]

I'm not sure I'm on-board with being too generous with no-hide flags, etc.  I mean having an assassin up on the ceiling out of easy sight clinging to pitons or whatever is a fun visual trope.

I do think that the slow methodical search method has some merit.  Maybe a command that has a long delay and just puts the effects of a [i/] temporary [ /i] no-hide flag in a room? With some caveats- it wouldn't work  in rooms flagged with an NPC presence, etc.

[Heade]

I'm not sure I'm on-board with being too generous with no-hide flags, etc.  I mean having an assassin up on the ceiling out of easy sight clinging to pitons or whatever is a fun visual trope.

Our characters aren't living in palaces with ceilings high enough to be out of sight. Think about hallways in a normal house. Jet Lee spider-walking on the ceiling wouldn't work. You'd see him, especially if he's up there scurrying along to "shadow" you into your bedroom door. And how would he get in the door with you without being seen? As I said previously, if you consider how people move through doors, they close the door behind them AS they go through it. There is no space of time in which someone would have to slip through the door unnoticed WITH the person going in. They'd either have to push the person out of the way, or have the door smack them in the face. In either case, it would be subsequently obvious they were attempting to come in.

[Doublepalli]

Scan is IG for a reason. A delayed command to make a max hide PC visible would make stealthing pointless when the guy you're shadowing with no scan makes you vis and proceeds to bash you.

[Qzzrbl]

Scan is IG for a reason.

Try not to overestimate Scan's usefulness, especially at levels lower than master, which only three classes get.

A delayed command to make a max hide PC visible would make stealthing pointless when the guy you're shadowing with no scan makes you vis and proceeds to bash you.

If I'm understanding the suggestion properly, that would be assuming your max hide PC just chills in the same room until the search finishes.

Code Select Expand

The tall and thicc figure in a dark, hooded cloak starts intently searching the room.

You think: "Oh dang, he's on to me."

n

You stealthily move north.

You think, feeling relieved: "Man, am I glad I managed to avoid getting mashed into paste."

[Mercy]

I'm not sure I'm on-board with being too generous with no-hide flags, etc.  I mean having an assassin up on the ceiling out of easy sight clinging to pitons or whatever is a fun visual trope.

I don't want to see liberal use of no-hide flags because, again, I don't want stealth to die. However, there are rooms where it genuinely makes little to no sense unless you're actually invisible. Personally, I'm not even mad at hallways being hideable. Honestly the way I've always envisioned it is that you become a vnpc in a hallway, rather than an overtly detectable PC. Since there is no way to "Play it cool" like you belong except via hide/sneak. But you can't exactly play it cool or outright hide in an apartment that has a rug and a bed so low to the floor you couldn't squeeze a rat under it. Certain rooms really need no-hide flags. But even then I'm more down with having a search for hiders option.

Scan is IG for a reason. A delayed command to make a max hide PC visible would make stealthing pointless when the guy you're shadowing with no scan makes you vis and proceeds to bash you.

I want to express that what I'm envisioning for a 'delayed command' to make hidden PCs visible is not something that takes 10 seconds to go off. It would be very slow. Like at least a real life minute slow. And honestly, I'd make it take much longer than that to find someone with master hide. This is partly to give them plenty of time to get the hell out of dodge. It shouldn't cancel scanning, but it should cancel out direction-based watching. The delay wouldn't stop you from inputting commands, but any action would interrupt it. Plenty of room echos in the duration to let everyone in the room know what you're doing. This command would be no where near comparable to scan, what so ever. And if you choose to stand, for a full minute or more, in a room with someone tossing the place I don't think you can get mad at what takes place afterwards.

[Gentleboy]

I accidentally type 'Loom' instead of look all the time. Which makes me think instead of a watch command, what if there was a more stealthy loom command so when assessed people don't know you're watching them? Idk something funny I was thinking.

[Hauwke]

I don't like the name of it, but I do like the idea.

[Doublepalli]

And then everybody uses the command every apartment, tavern, compound they enter. Goodbye eavesdropping. Good bye spying. Goodbye shadowing. Goodbye most assasinations. This thread just seems like heavy combat PCs are annoyed about stealthies IG because they cant 2 hit them.

[Alesan]

And then everybody uses the command every apartment, tavern, compound they enter. Goodbye eavesdropping. Good bye spying. Goodbye shadowing. Goodbye most assasinations. This thread just seems like heavy combat PCs are annoyed about stealthies IG because they cant 2 hit them.

I wish people wouldn't be so reductionist. It harms healthy discussion.

[Doublepalli]

Well, the games fantasy, it isnt realistic. We have warriors that reach beyond conan levels and sneakies who become batman.

Ask yourself - would batman be able to break into nobles quarters and someones bedroom?

Can conan kill 6 raptors?

Can robinhood one shot a man in the neck?

[Qzzrbl]

It's not that heavy combat PCs are just so mad that they can't PK the poor weak stealth boys that can't possibly defend themselves in any way.

To me, it's that unless you have mastered scan, stealthy players may as well be invisible ghosts.

I feel it should also be mentioned that eavesdropping can be done from another room entirely (even behind doors), "spying" involves more than just hiding in a room, shadowing will still be viable unless someone stops to search every single time they move-- which would just be silly, compounds are often large enough to sneak away from someone searching, an assassin probably shouldn't try to assassinate someone they're not prepared to take in a fight, and also maybe it's not a good idea to follow someone into a locked single-room apartment if they're going to want to kick your head in.

I believe some of the proposed changes would take stealth play from "invisibility cloak" to "something more analogous to actual sneaking around". Something more involved than just upping a hide flag and being untouchable unless some very, very specific and rarely available conditions are met.

Like, it -is- fantasy, but it is more often than not tempered with realism. Like that time I got shot down for suggesting that one should be able to catch a thrown knife and throw it back like that one scene in Big Trouble in Little China Town because it just wasn't realistic that I'm still totally not salty about.

[Doublepalli]

So because the heavy combat pcs dont have master scan, they should get a free command to spot their counterpart? It just doesn't sit well. I get what you're saying, but ultimately this stuff would end up abused.

As for eavesdropping if they are a room away and talking at table you wont hear them anywho.

[Qzzrbl]

So because the heavy combat pcs dont have master scan, they should get a free command to spot their counterpart? It just doesn't sit well. I get what you're saying, but ultimately this stuff would end up abused.

It's not just heavy combat classes, I don't know why you keep bringing that up, because scan at a level decent enough to call out a master sneak is absent on like 12 of the 15 classes available.

You also seem to keep forgetting the part about simply sneaking to another room to avoid inevitable detection when a search starts.

The only real danger of this idea is to sneakies that either don't move or shadow someone into a locked room-- which tbh -should- be a bad and dangerous idea if they're not prepared to fight in the first place.

also i really, really think you underestimate how dangerous a prepared stealth character is

[Veselka]

I don't know where I land on this. I hate binary skills (Hidden or Not Hidden, Sneak Success or Sneak Fail). It'd be nice to have some nuance in-between.

[Doublepalli]

If stealthies are to be subjected to even more work and risk involved because only 3 classes have master scan,  then we should start a thread on how a crafter can make 30k in a year easy, or how OP a heavy combat with an extended guild is while we're at it!

[Alesan]

If stealthies are to be subjected to even more work and risk involved because only 3 classes have master scan,  then we should start a thread on how a crafter can make 30k in a year easy, or how OP a heavy combat with an extended guild is while we're at it!

I mean, sure. Go for it.