The yin and yang of sparring/training now

[Cerelum]

Out of interest were you ever told OOCly that you would not be allowed to pursue this or that you would never successfully attain your goal due to OOC reasons?

I was not refused. 

My perception is that there are two blockers.   The main one is that my pcs dont tend to last more than six months real time.   Even when I have put a thousand hours of play on a pc in that time, I have a feeling of not being anywhere far enough along for several goals I've pursued (Lieutenant in a clan, new sparring organization, warehouse ownership, starting one of three lesser merchant thingies).  Mea culpa. 

Then I go back to skill-maxing.   

I would try to bribe Templars in game with staff assistance.  Maybe they will put a price on how much coin it would take for a Templar to make a public sparring ring in Meleth's Circle or something.

Shoot a request in and ask for some guide ace and steps they would like to see to implement it.

Also have you thought of just getting public access to the arena?  The arena is a anything goes area inside the town, why not just see about getting access to it via in game means.  Perhaps paying the owners of reigning gladiators to have them train you?  Then there is less infrastructure that needs built up and you just use what's available but in a different way?

Give the reigning something to do other than wearing silks and drinking 90 percent of the time.

Edit: It would be like public skate hours at the arena, come one come all with the magical melodies of DJ Tektolnes and his crew!

[bynja turtle]

Gladiators are not allowed to touch commoners because they are slaves. Except of course during Arena executions.

This is both an IC and OOC issue as gladiators are boosted to extreme skill levels because they are flavor PCs who serve in a flavor role. They're purposefully not meant to mingle codedly in combat with other PCs.

[Cerelum]

Gladiators are not allowed to touch commoners because they are slaves. Except of course during Arena executions.

This is both an IC and OOC issue as gladiators are boosted to extreme skill levels because they are flavor PCs who serve in a flavor role. They're purposefully not meant to mingle codedly in combat with other PCs.

Way to rain on the parade...

So you're telling me you think it would be unreasonable for a slave owning noble or merchant house to allow their gladiators to train folks?

Forget the skill gap, that is like saying a 10 day combat character shouldn't train a one day because they are too buff for them.

I don't think anyone would expect to win against a gladiator in training or otherwise.

[Namino]

While gladiators cannot strike commoners as they are slaves, they're not boosted to levels where well-trained standard PCs can't go shot for shot with them in a spar.

Source: I misbehaved.

[Cerelum]

Wait that's a rule?

I have little to no experience with actual slaves in game. I figured if you order a slice to do it, they do it or they get whipped.

[Riev]

Training and Sparring should come with a risk.

That risk should not be "omg spider ran into the room".
That risk should not be "we left the apartment door open and a patrolling NPC Solider arrested us"

The risk should be "I'm entering into this place where death is a VERY real risk I am taking, at the opportunity to better myself."
The risk should be "If I open up a sparring gym, and someone dies, I am held responsible for their death, and the Templars better believe I had nothing to do with it (even if I did)".

Opening up a PC warehouse to the public as a sparring gym is totally doable, so long as you can provide the necessary constant coin donations to the Templarate, the Guild, and that one Noble who needs their pockets lined too for some reason, on the basis that your organization actually MAKES money off this venture.

So I guess... custom-craft linen-wrap shirts with your Sigil on the back. Bonus points if it is a coiled snake, extra points if your PC is named Johnny Lawrence.

[Alesan]

Strike first, strike hard, no mercy.

[MeTekillot]

You can spar in alleyways? Basements. Abandoned storehouse. Have you guys not seen Fight Club?

[MeTekillot]

Gladiators are not allowed to touch commoners because they are slaves. Except of course during Arena executions.

This is both an IC and OOC issue as gladiators are boosted to extreme skill levels because they are flavor PCs who serve in a flavor role. They're purposefully not meant to mingle codedly in combat with other PCs.

Goofy justification. Would rather they ICly be known as badass fighters whom the powers that be obviously don't want the plebs to learn from.

[bynja turtle]

While gladiators cannot strike commoners as they are slaves, they're not boosted to levels where well-trained standard PCs can't go shot for shot with them in a spar.

Source: I misbehaved.

You must have had a skill level in the top 1% of PCs, then. I don't think an average PC is going to have that opportunity or ability.

Metek: It's a slave ownership issue more importantly. The OOC rules regarding are also to protect players. If Gladiators could be used fragrantly against the playerbase you'd see some gladiator hit squads out there, undoubtedly. It's tightly controlled because it can be game breaking to have temporary/special PCs with such boosted skills.

[Cerelum]

While gladiators cannot strike commoners as they are slaves, they're not boosted to levels where well-trained standard PCs can't go shot for shot with them in a spar.

Source: I misbehaved.

You must have had a skill level in the top 1% of PCs, then. I don't think an average PC is going to have that opportunity or ability.

Metek: It's a slave ownership issue more importantly. The OOC rules regarding are also to protect players. If Gladiators could be used fragrantly against the playerbase you'd see some gladiator hit squads out there, undoubtedly. It's tightly controlled because it can be game breaking to have temporary/special PCs with such boosted skills.

Now that makes more sense, of noble fluffy silk pants gets offended and sends gladiator hit Squad to kill someone and misses the rp of hiring real killers to do it.

[Namino]

While gladiators cannot strike commoners as they are slaves, they're not boosted to levels where well-trained standard PCs can't go shot for shot with them in a spar.

Source: I misbehaved.

You must have had a skill level in the top 1% of PCs, then. I don't think an average PC is going to have that opportunity or ability.

Metek: It's a slave ownership issue more importantly. The OOC rules regarding are also to protect players. If Gladiators could be used fragrantly against the playerbase you'd see some gladiator hit squads out there, undoubtedly. It's tightly controlled because it can be game breaking to have temporary/special PCs with such boosted skills.

I believe the real reason is that weaponskills for gladiators actually cap quite low. What makes Gladiators gladiators is that their skillgain for offense/defense and (possibly?) other fighting skills gain faster, because otherwise new gladiators would never catch the champ. But a raw PC has a much shallower slope, but it can actuall go just as high if not significantly higher.

But yes. My PC was very, very strong at the time.

Massive derail.

[Halcyon]

Gladiators are not allowed to touch commoners because they are slaves. Except of course during Arena executions.

This is both an IC and OOC issue as gladiators are boosted to extreme skill levels because they are flavor PCs who serve in a flavor role. They're purposefully not meant to mingle codedly in combat with other PCs.

Respectfully, they are not.   High skill combatant fights look much different.  The gladiators dont block and parry enough, and they dont hit hard enough.

[Eyeball]

I am very much hoping that this new clan sparring mechanic will create social opportunity and value for highly skilled combatants.   Those champions dont have to train everyone evenly.  A shifting reality of favorites, favors, and prejudice could make for more interesting military clans.   It also creates recruitment possibilities.   Recruiting a Rink or an Ish now is absolute coup for a leader and the clan they lead, even if that veteran combatant only stays a game year.

As with mages, it just means the skills/knowledge will be hoarded and then die out (e.g. magickal reaches). And there's already enough ass-kissing in the game with Templars, Nobles and the rest of it, do we really need to add a new dimension of it?

[Eyeball]

Recently a change

You do realize this change is multiple years old at this point?

Ok, put it this way then: it's a change I only recently became aware of.

So I am going to turn this around.  How do we give you what you want, but keep truly exceptional combat characters exceptional, where it isn't just a matter of putting in the time/effort to become exceptional, from a skill perspective?

Get the clan imms to change the clan schedule and ease off the sparring requirement. Here are a few ideas to replace it:

1. Pest control of giant rats and such in the city. Each body collected earns a few coins of a bounty paid by an NPC, or maybe a crossbow bolt.

2. Scheduled patrol of the road west of the city, with the purpose of giving visitors to Menos some security at a specific time they can know about.

3. Quarry duty. Stone for repairs to the compound. If the work isn't done, the degradation becomes noticeable and inconvenient.

4. Alley patrol. Put in some invisible object that detects when the AoD enters and rolls a small chance for some type of random encounter to be spawned. It can have a list of possible encounters it sets up.

5. Sewer patrol. Give the AoD access to a new, separate subsection of the sewers. (Maybe they hook up to the main sewers but the way is blocked by a grate). Like the alley patrol, put in chances for various encounters at various spawn points, but for a different set than in the alleys. They don't all have to be beast #19382. There could be rare odds of something good happening, like a gemstone was flushed and now catches a soldier's eye.

Things like that. Add interest and variety to the schedule.

This sounds mostly like stuff we expect clan leaders to facilitate.

A clan leader can lead a patrol when he's around, but the clan schedule is around 24/7.

A clan leader can initiate a change to the schedule, but it will vanish when that clan leader vanishes.

A clan leader can offer a bounty (out of his own pocket) on rats, but he can't make it an official city-wide policy nor introduce new vermin to be hunted down now and then.

A clan leader can make words about walls needing to be repaired or whatever, but can't provide any visual evidence of such or repairs when they happen.

A clan leader can lead an alley patrol but not set up a random encounter there.

A clan leader can lead a sewer patrol but not set up a random encounter there.

All of these were examples of the basic idea: cut sparring and give clannies something more interesting to do. The staff has the ability, the question is, will the staff do it?

[maxid]

The Clan Leader (and others) can, however, submit requests with ideas for these things.  And if things are being pushed IC they tend to get picked up by staff, especially recently.

Also, as a note, if gladiators were given 'extreme' skills, the fights would be very, very short.

[Eyeball]

The Clan Leader (and others) can, however, submit requests with ideas for these things.  And if things are being pushed IC they tend to get picked up by staff, especially recently.

The thing is that, by setting up random encounters that occasionally trigger from a sizable list when certain conditions are met, a degree of surprise and unpredictability is added to the game that is in addition to whatever the staff does manually. Even small things, like getting a boot stuck in the muck and having to leave it behind, add variety to the routines and can be groused about to other characters. The lists themselves could be changed now and then to keep it fresh, but once in place, it really wouldn't require a lot of work.

[downer]

Just going to conclude with my original two thoughts:
- For those seeking an outdoor focused combat guild in Allanak, make Salarr (or literally any other merchant house) great again
- Public sparring completely resolves the issue of people being deprived of training opportunities in various contexts (small clans or independents) and is a better RP scenario than "let's spar in my apartment."

I hope some people in the game decide to stop complaining about how nothing is possible and everything is boring because nothing can be achieved without staff support. And hopefully actually try to create these opportunities within the game.

[EDIT]: Sorry. This came across as more confrontational then necessary.

It gets tiring to see this regular cycle among the players (either on this forum, discord or other forums):
1) The game never changes.
2) The game's boring because all the changes are staff directed and created and players are just along for the ride.
3) It's too hard to try to achieve anything ourselves.
4) Staff never do anything.
5) Go back to Point 1.

This thread is pretty much squarely at point 3. I await the cycle moving back to point 4 and then back to point 1 and on and on the cycle goes.

The GDB is great for creating a sense of community. It's also great for inspiration. It's also one of the worst parts of the game.

I hope that some people quit complaining about people being discontent with the status quo and attempting to initiate, or further a dialogue about stagnation.


1. The game changes, but that doesn't mean the changes are good.  Let's remove hunters from merchant houses.  Now, let's change the economy so it's harder to sell items hunters would normally harvest to force them to interact with the merchant houses.  Staff can't control the availability of the two players that can actually buy the materials though right?  So hunters have to travel to sell basic materials because the vendor is full.  Which gets irritating and boring and generally isn't super worth it.  So they stop hunting for the merchants.  The merchants don't have materials coming in so aren't producing goods and are having to wait on Staff to load stuff into the vendors.
2.  How is this not true?  As is usually true, aside from quality of life recommendations.  Use the above example, they realized selling stuff was pretty much a no go after they made the merchant inventories persist through restarts and so had to code in selling a random item WAY to infrequently.  They attempted to address the issue but in a very mediocre way.
3.  Arm is filled with some of the least helpful characters I've ever experienced.  They are all self motivated murderous assholes without a shred of altruism.
4. Staff does stuff sure.  But 90% of the content they created is designed for, or kept from the rest of us by role call roles.  They do some awesome amazing story stuff, and some dick in a position of authority kills anyone that knows about it and hoards all the information for his own personal bid at power.  See item #3.
5. See item #3

[maxid]

The thing is that, by setting up random encounters that occasionally trigger from a sizable list when certain conditions are met, a degree of surprise and unpredictability is added to the game that is in addition to whatever the staff does manually. Even small things, like getting a boot stuck in the muck and having to leave it behind, add variety to the routines and can be groused about to other characters. The lists themselves could be changed now and then to keep it fresh, but once in place, it really wouldn't require a lot of work.

Sure that's a neat idea, but you're now volunteering staff's time to code it.   I don't disagree with you, and I don't intend this to shut down conversation about potential new ideas (I'm a huge fan of that sort of discussion!) but it sorta comes across as 'If I were staff I would simply code in new exciting ideas all the time.'  Currently, its partially on leader PCs to work with staff on this stuff.  If they just coded in 'sometimes you lose your boots when walking in this area' people would complain, endlessly, or just start taking off their boots to move through it then putting them back on.


Also, in response to Downer - #3 is like a huge theme of Zalanthas.  I've seen plenty of people willing to work together, but that fear of betrayal sometimes gets in the way.  And that's a big part of theme.  If anything, though, I've seen people be way too trusting pretty often.

But this isn't super relevant to the sparring questions.

[triste]

1. The game changes, but that doesn't mean the changes are good.  Let's remove hunters from merchant houses.

I've come back from a 3-4 year hiatus and I had no idea this happened. I don't know how this could possibly be justified, warehouses aside. Salarr and Kadian house hunting was great. Now I am even more fervent on this point and I am glad some people agree.

[BOXCARS]

(deleted uninsightful input)

[Cerelum]

When I returned as well one of my first characters was a Salarr employee.

Without giving anything else away I too was shocked that GMH hunters are virtual now.

I think the idea is sound as in, hey give Indy hunters something to do, supply Salarr and Kadius.

But in practice, the GMHs have such large stockpiles of material and so few crafters that require things, it's not really working out.

Sure everyone wants Kryl shells or Mekillot shells but there are few people who can take them down to supply that stuff.

My hope is that Shabagos armor mission gets more things desirable on the low to mid side more sought after.

Also there is a bit of a vacuum on people buying the said shit from GMHs.  There is only so many people to buy top tier armor, or super silky silk.

I think the solution would be work orders from VNPC folks and groups to drive demand of merchant houses.

Because it's a delicate balance, you don't want every two bit hunter who can hardly survive a scrab selling shittons of chalton bits or rat hides for tons of coins, but you also don't want to travel across half the known world to get a shipment of wood or norther critter bits to be offered 500 coins for their time.

Demand drives supply and right now there is a shitload of supply on low to mid and not a lot of demand.

[Eyeball]

it sorta comes across as 'If I were staff I would simply code in new exciting ideas all the time.'

Brokkr asked me what I thought could be done.

If they just coded in 'sometimes you lose your boots when walking in this area' people would complain, endlessly, or just start taking off their boots to move through it then putting them back on.

The idea is to create a list of possible events and encounters that occasionally trigger under certain conditions. Small chance at a given time, small chance that the boot event is picked from the list when it does happen. Not enough so that everyone is cynically ready for it. And it's just an example of the wide range of events that could be put in.

Or it could even be a stack of events instead of a list. The top of the stack is picked to happen, then it's removed from the stack. Eventually the stack is empty, except that more events can be added by the staff at their leisure.

[Brokkr]

I think one of the problems with schedule is that it works really well for newer characters.  So a change that means less sparring might be viewed, by those newer characters that want to work on their skills, as a negative.  While older characters might think of it as a positive.

I am not sure where a compromise is reached except where it is replaced with activity, which is generally the hallmark of a good clan leader.

[Riev]

I am not sure where a compromise is reached except where it is replaced with activity, which is generally the hallmark of a good clan leader.

In this, we agree. I'm a twink, I love sparring endlessly so long as people are getting dem gainz off it. However, having been in the Byn a lot, one of the things a Leader CAN DO is make changes whenever they please.

Sure, every day its the same training with the same idiots, and it feels like there is no progression. However, my last Byn Sergeant sincerely felt that when a Trooper was unable to run Training that day, it was the Sergeant's duty to make sure people weren't dicking around.

It is entirely within Leadership's discretion to see who showed up for sparring and either train them personally (why not?) or decide that today we're going to go play Tag the Raptor. If you see someone who is on relatively consistently, you know they aren't getting good gainz, and you want to keep them around? Help them get gainz. Spar with them personally. Tell them someone paid you to beat the shit out of some drunk who slurred their mother. Make shit up, but give them something to do.

If they really aren't able to get gains, even with sparring Trooper+, then I think it might be time for a contract.