Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.

[Cerelum]

I don't know if this is allowed to be discussed or not, so if not, just delete and no hard feelings.

Crime code is deadly in this game, as it should be.  But even when it's not deadly, it costs you massively in coin and gear,  not to mention grounding you for however long in a cell till either a Templar finds you or your time expires.

But that's not really the main issue in my opinion, the main issue is where and when it applies...

I have read various posts from staff and players alike that sorta hint that crime code exists based on time of day and relation and distance to soldier npcs and vnpc population.

So say I steal from a guy and next room over is a soldier, he screams, I'm wanted because common sense.

But sometimes the room will say something along the lines of "very few people are around at this time of night" no soldier in any direction and you'll still get wanted when you fail to pickpocket npc or played x.

Also there are other skills such as plant and latch that supposedly run off the same rules.

I've had no luck in getting any training in any of the illegal arts really due to this seemingly omnipotent crime code, plus it exists in clan areas as well so it seems like the only way to train them without getting arrested is in the rinth, but I don't know if that's intended or a just how it goes.  I have never been in the rinth with my criminal PCs because I didn't create there and last time some npc muttered something and murdered me on like day one.

I think fhe's we understood better how to navigate the rules of the crime code, we would be able to have a more realistic and living world outside of training to master in the rinth then robbing the south.

Thoughts?

[Feco]

If you find rooms that you think aren't acting right based on their descriptions, I'd bug them or something.  Staff can review them, that way.

[Cerelum]

If you find rooms that you think aren't acting right based on their descriptions, I'd bug them or something.  Staff can review them, that way.

I would say your right for most things, but when you become wanted you need to worry about running and don't have time.

[Brokkr]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

[Cerelum]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Fair enough.  Just sharing my feelings on the matter, I do think that some of the docs could be updated such as the thieves bible and such.

Something to give someone a little nudge in realistic thievery and cloak and dagger type shit though.

[Eyeball]

Don't see why there couldn't be a 'survey' command (or skill, maybe) for this, that gives its results by your location and the presence of NPCs.

>survey
You feel several sets of eyes upon you.

>survey
A soldier is nearby.

> survey
The coast is clear!

It might make more sense than having to basically buy the knowledge by expending characters and transferring it OOCly to the next one.

[Jihelu]

I feel like 'wasting a few characters' for the sake of learning Crimecode is a bit fail RP, don't you think?

Deliberately going out to just commit crimes in certain areas would take some pretty big amount of juggling as opposed to what the poster above suggested.

[Cerelum]

Well, on the subject of wasting a few characters...

I think that all depends on the AoD and the Templars who respond to the crime.

I've had pickpockets under the old system who were literally stripped naked of everything they own on the first capture, thrown out into the streets and had to then steal and do shady shit to attempt to survive as they had no food and water.

While I have never played a Templar, I think this type of reaction is extremely heavy handed and not great for roleplay.

Now I've also been straight killed in the cell by Templars, again, not great but hey they have the power.

Now I've had what I would consider, for lack of better words, "Good" templars who threaten, posture and maybe take a little something from you, but don't leave you destitute and or simply threaten you.  These are great interactions because they don't damn you right off the rip.


Honestly the most damning thing about the crime code is the weapon confiscation I think.  Because even things that aren't technically weapons but CAN operate as weapons, such as shovel can be stripped from ya.  So now even if said templar allows you to escape and pardons your crimes, you're out possibly a few small in every little item that qualifies as a weapon, including skinning knives, shovels, etc.

If I could wave a magick wand and change one thing, it would be that weapons below a certain value were returned when you're released from jail.  Simply for a playability viewpoint.

I do understand that you can contact the Templar (possibly a soldier?) and get your stuff back potentially through roleplay and bribes etc.  But in the past when I've tried this, it was either crazy expensive or just not on the table.

[Eyeball]

In any case, we don't have pickpockets any more, we have miscreants who can both break in and steal from inventories, and quite possibly kick your ass if you try to do anything about it.

Inevitably once a few pickpockets/burglars had worked themselves up and become an invincible plague on the city, people without fortresses of solitude would just abandon their apartments and start managing their inventories carefully, and the loot then dried up. They used to go away after that, but now miscreants are quite capable of doing well in second and third careers. So they can linger on, screwing other people as a hobby while daylighting quite successfully, for example, in the Byn. The fun will never stop! No surprise then that the apartments above the Gaj are nearly all up for grabs now, is it.

tl;dr Why worry about the crimcode given that everyone will perpetually turtle now.

[Dresan]

First of all, losing all your L33T gear to player or code is never an issue. No matter how many times it happens. In the desert most players may leave you with a waterskin, but if they don't well...tough.

Now, if you were being caught and murdered immediately then maybe it would be worth a discussion. But really even that is still a big maybe. (Protip, this command will help you get out of jail the first couple of times: just type: emote gets on the ground and tries to kiss %templar feet as they sob and beg for mercy.)

The only thing about the crimcode I would currently change is that sometimes when you become wanted you aren't explicitly told unless you type 'stat'. Other than that it is fine.

[Cerelum]

The only thing about the crimcode I would currently change is that sometimes when you become wanted you aren't explicitly told unless you type 'stat'. Other than that it is fine.

Yeah especially with the new colorful Armageddon, make that shit bright RED and big.

[rinthrat]

I've had pickpockets under the old system who were literally stripped naked of everything they own on the first capture, thrown out into the streets and had to then steal and do shady shit to attempt to survive as they had no food and water.

I would have a great time if someone did this to my criminal. YMMV.

[Cerelum]

I've had pickpockets under the old system who were literally stripped naked of everything they own on the first capture, thrown out into the streets and had to then steal and do shady shit to attempt to survive as they had no food and water.

I would have a great time if someone did this to my criminal. YMMV.

Well, my only gripe about it is that I already suck enough to be caught and jailed, it's not going to have improved much from my time in jail.  So chances are I end up getting drug back to jail naked and then murdered.

Edit:  Add in the bug or "feature" of soldiers replicating themselves and that's another guard that has a chance of running in and subduing and/or murdering you.  As I understand how scan, sneak and such work is it's a random chance based on how skilled the hider,sneaker or scanner is.  So having multiple of the soldiery, soldier five blocks around is making it harder to escape notice.

[MeTekillot]

Just kill the extra soldier copies. Duh.

[Veselka]

It would be nice if you could attempt a subdue while combatants are engaged in combat. So if Player A and Player B are fighting one another, you can attempt to subdue player A or player B.

What I've noticed is most deadly about Crimecode is when/if you are engaged in combat, a soldier rushes in, can't subdue you, so they immediately attack you. If, for instance, you are attempting to mug an NPC, and a half-giant soldier who wasn't there 5 seconds ago (you checked before trying to sap/kill/maim), they arrive one room to the east, and come in and clobber you to death.

It makes sense that especially large creatures like half-giants could intervene in a combat and subdue someone, perhaps with more difficulty, or possibly taking damage.

[Vex]

It would be nice if you could attempt a subdue while combatants are engaged in combat. So if Player A and Player B are fighting one another, you can attempt to subdue player A or player B.

Absolutely not.

[Cerelum]

It would be nice if you could attempt a subdue while combatants are engaged in combat. So if Player A and Player B are fighting one another, you can attempt to subdue player A or player B.

Absolutely not.

Why not?  You don't think it's realistic to run up and detain someone who's sword fighting with another person?

[Vex]

Why not?  You don't think it's realistic to run up and detain someone who's sword fighting with another person?

It's like throw.

Subdue is an adequately powerful skill, and it's limitations serve to keep it from being too broken.

With the "suggestion", you're in combat with a two strong men from Red Storm, they're raiders, out to get your loot. You're tough and you're able to match them. One decides, no, we can't win, and so they disengage, and spam subdue on you while you're fighting, until they're successful. Their friend kills you in two hits, because being subdued is even WORSE than being unarmed, and not only that, but subdue doesn't break when someone attacks the subdued target. So, instead of a pitched fight, you're annihilated in seconds, by two people who cannot beat you in a melee. They suffer ZERO risk, in doing so, due to you being locked in combat with one of them, whilst the other can disengage, even if you kick/bash them, to keep out of combat, and therefor, continue to spam you with subdue, safe from being torn apart in melee, due to their unarmed status.

Sounds GREAT if you're one the winning side, but it would be quite shite, to be the victim of it.

CURRENTLY, you cannot be subdued mid-combat. If that duo wants to pull off a subdue and screw, they need to attempt it BEFORE combat starts, and must be unarmed in order to do so, meaning if they fail, they're stuck in a post-attempt lockout, unarmed, while you, are free to bloody them up some.

Subdue is very powerful, but kept in check by the risks involved in an attempt.

Another example: You're out in the sand, hunting a scrab. You're green, but you can down scrab with some cuts and scrapes. Enter a dwarf, arriving from the east. He subdues you, while the scrab inflicts horrendous damage to your neck, over and over. You die. How happy are you, with this outcome? You're not, unless you're the dwarf. Or the scrab, though I suspect, the scrab will not get a cut of your loots...

Currently, this is not possible. He would need to get you before, or after. And subdue on it's own, won't let him kill cheese you, because drawing a weapon or attacking, will release you first.

Like throw, it is a potent skill kept in check by its situational usefulness, and a necessary risk vs reward. The proposed change, imo, would lead to heavy abuse, rather than a less brutal crimcode.

[Veselka]

Perhaps mostly in the case of NPC soldiers, is my main point. If you are in combat and a soldier comes in, it doesn't matter if you have no-save arrest on, they will attempt to kill you because they cannot 'peacefully' end the combat and arrest you.

[Eyeball]

First of all, losing all your L33T gear to player or code is never an issue. No matter how many times it happens.

Realistically, it should be one. There are all sorts of measures the game doesn't allow that one could reasonably use to protect against theft.

1. You can't bar doors.

2. You can't get decent locks or multiple locks as a commoner.

3. You can't hire NPCs, either directly, or through communal contributions (e.g. part of rent from all renters going toward NPCs patrols).

4. You can't find a maxed-out thief hiding in a small empty room.

5. You can't set traps, not even simple alarm traps.

6. You can't hide things beneath floor boards or behind that loose brick or in a special hollow bed leg or  whatever.

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.

[Cerelum]

Perhaps mostly in the case of NPC soldiers, is my main point. If you are in combat and a soldier comes in, it doesn't matter if you have no-save arrest on, they will attempt to kill you because they cannot 'peacefully' end the combat and arrest you.

Yeah you could simply make it a no-save setting like arrest or run off arrest.  Also make it break combat completely so that it won't be subdue instant dead.

Just stop the combat.

There are plenty of ways to make it workable as a game and not make it exploitable by general players.

[Tekky]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

[Is Friday]

First of all, losing all your L33T gear to player or code is never an issue. No matter how many times it happens.

Realistically, it should be one. There are all sorts of measures the game doesn't allow that one could reasonably use to protect against theft.

1. You can't bar doors.

2. You can't get decent locks as a commoner.

3. You can't hire NPCs, either directly, or through communal contributions (e.g. part of rent from all renters going toward NPCs patrols).

4. You can't find a maxed-out thief hiding in a small empty room.

5. You can't set traps, not even simple alarm traps.

6. You can't hide things beneath floor boards or behind that loose brick or in a special hollow bed leg or  whatever.

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.

I feel like the game has entered a phase of punishing players instead of rewarding them in order to reinforce the setting. Players are playing in GMH less in a productive way because the GMH clan model has failed when compared to the indie merchant model in the last few years. Now that the indie model has done so well it is being punished.

So now both roles suck.

[Namino]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

Not to mention the sentiment only makes sense in a system is intuitive and the crim-code is notoriously bananas and schizophrenic half the time.

You attempt to grab a filthy grey rat, but it wrestles away.
A filthy grey rat bites at you, but you dodge out of the way.

129/129h 23/129m 120/120st| easily manageable | walking | unarmed | late afternoon Ocandra

A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.
A Kuraci regular viciously stabs a filthy grey rat on its head.
A filthy grey rat reels from a Kuraci regular's blow.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its hindleg.
A Kuraci regular stabs a filthy grey rat's tail, connecting hard.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.
A Kuraci regular lightly stabs a filthy grey rat's hindleg.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular solidly slashes a filthy grey rat's foreleg.
A filthy grey rat crumples to the ground.
A Kuraci regular brutally stabs a filthy grey rat on its back.


129/129h 23/129m 120/120st| easily

B A D   M O V E   F O O L

[Cerelum]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

Don't attack the staff, trust me I know how this ends, they will lock the thread, someone will get banned from posting.  And nothing ever gets learned.

Take it from a guy who was banned from the forums for YEARS.

[Brokkr]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

[Namino]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

One thing I notice you tend to do, Brokkr, is conflate IC information with code information. The code is, as you allude, an imperfect mechanism to produce a bounded system of responses to inputs. But acting like deciphering code and finding things out IC are the same process is disingenuous. Suggesting the crim-code is an IC phenomenon is no more true than suggesting the statement 'that carru just hit me for 25 health points!' is an IC statement.

Much like health points are a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous ICly (that being the overall health of your character), the crim-code is a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous (that being the complex social reaction of the civilization you're in to socially unacceptable behavior).

You can get away with conflating 'find out IC' with coded nuance some of the time. That is wholly dependent on how well your code is encapsulating intuitive and accurate reflections of how things should work. But in scenarios where the coded approximation is very inaccurate and is poorly intuitive, then this IC-code conflation falls apart, because the mechanics that are driving the system are not any more in-character than the numerical value of health points.

The crim-code does a poor job of translating the complex social behavior of law enforcement. This is not one of those times where you can get away with conflation. Some things need OOC explanations, especially if they can result in instant loss of of a character due to code-quirks.

[Dresan]

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.

If you bar doors, the thieves should have tools to cut it, if you set traps, thieves should be able to disarm them....for every counter measure you have, the thief should get a counter measure to balance it out. More expensive apartments already have better guards, locks and such, someone needed to invest in the skill set to open those doors. The skills and stats needed to steal from the safe that is a backpack  have tradeoffs.

As someone who has enjoyed the role of indie merchant and who loves indie roles in general, I can assure you if there is a problem with indie roles, its not because our chalton hides get stolen.

[Eyeball]

If you bar doors, the thieves should have tools to cut it,

Hard to see how a thief could remain stealthy while sawing through a thick wooden bar.

if you set traps, thieves should be able to disarm them....

Which should take a lot of time in some cases and with a chance of failure.

More expensive apartments already have better guards, locks and such,

You mean the ones that tell you that you can't rent there (unless you have some special status which they don't specify)?

for every counter measure you have, the thief should get a counter measure to balance it out.

So you want to maintain the status quo. *shrugs* It's not like I really hope anything will change anyhow. As it stands, trying to maintain an inventory in a warehouse is a joke. Any indie merchant will best operate out of a closed, weighted backpack and stick to crowded areas.

[Cabooze]

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.

If you bar doors, the thieves should have tools to cut it, if you set traps, thieves should be able to disarm them....for every counter measure you have, the thief should get a counter measure to balance it out. More expensive apartments already have better guards, locks and such, someone needed to invest in the skill set to open those doors. The skills and stats needed to steal from the safe that is a backpack  have tradeoffs.

As someone who has enjoyed the role of indie merchant and who loves indie roles in general, I can assure you if there is a problem with indie roles, its not because our chalton hides get stolen.

The concept of 'barring' a door would only be applicable if you have a plank/length of mek bone, are the apartment owner, and that you MUST be in the room in order to bar it, IE barring before logging out, barring before mudsex, barring before murder. You might even accidentally bar your door with the thief already inside!

I think barring the door could make for more fun than it would ruin.

As for the topic on hand, well.......... I kinda need to agree with Namino on a lot of points there, but I also agree with Brokkr's stance of keeping the spread of OOC/IC information down. There just needs to be a less vague system in place to explain to people just what might get them killed off in seconds.

It doesn't come off as common sense that putting something into someone's pocket is just as illegal as taking something from that person's pocket, and thus gets a possibly long-lived character killed.

[Brokkr]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

One thing I notice you tend to do, Brokkr, is conflate IC information with code information. The code is, as you allude, an imperfect mechanism to produce a bounded system of responses to inputs. But acting like deciphering code and finding things out IC are the same process is disingenuous. Suggesting the crim-code is an IC phenomenon is no more true than suggesting the statement 'that carru just hit me for 25 health points!' is an IC statement.

Much like health points are a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous ICly (that being the overall health of your character), the crim-code is a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous (that being the complex social reaction of the civilization you're in to socially unacceptable behavior).

You can get away with conflating 'find out IC' with coded nuance some of the time. That is wholly dependent on how well your code is encapsulating intuitive and accurate reflections of how things should work. But in scenarios where the coded approximation is very inaccurate and is poorly intuitive, then this IC-code conflation falls apart, because the mechanics that are driving the system are not any more in-character than the numerical value of health points.

The crim-code does a poor job of translating the complex social behavior of law enforcement. This is not one of those times where you can get away with conflation. Some things need OOC explanations, especially if they can result in instant loss of of a character due to code-quirks.

You act how you act.  The code responds with an automated world response.  You may disagree with the response, but that doesn't mean that, unless it is a bug, that it is invalid.  It just means you disagree with how it was implemented.

Like your hand is seen near in someone's pocket.  IC'ly, does your intent on whether you were putting something in that pocket or getting something out of it really matter?  Your hand was in someone else's pocket.

[Namino]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

One thing I notice you tend to do, Brokkr, is conflate IC information with code information. The code is, as you allude, an imperfect mechanism to produce a bounded system of responses to inputs. But acting like deciphering code and finding things out IC are the same process is disingenuous. Suggesting the crim-code is an IC phenomenon is no more true than suggesting the statement 'that carru just hit me for 25 health points!' is an IC statement.

Much like health points are a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous ICly (that being the overall health of your character), the crim-code is a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous (that being the complex social reaction of the civilization you're in to socially unacceptable behavior).

You can get away with conflating 'find out IC' with coded nuance some of the time. That is wholly dependent on how well your code is encapsulating intuitive and accurate reflections of how things should work. But in scenarios where the coded approximation is very inaccurate and is poorly intuitive, then this IC-code conflation falls apart, because the mechanics that are driving the system are not any more in-character than the numerical value of health points.

The crim-code does a poor job of translating the complex social behavior of law enforcement. This is not one of those times where you can get away with conflation. Some things need OOC explanations, especially if they can result in instant loss of of a character due to code-quirks.

You act how you act.  The code responds with an automated world response.  You may disagree with the response, but that doesn't mean that, unless it is a bug, that it is invalid.  It just means you disagree with how it was implemented.

Like your hand is seen near in someone's pocket.  IC'ly, does your intent on whether you were putting something in that pocket or getting something out of it really matter?  Your hand was in someone else's pocket.

And there was a time not too long ago that unlatching your own damn pocket got you freaking swarmed by guards, IIRC.

In an ideal world, the code would be sophisticated enough that it performs adequately and has contingencies for things like that. For example, my character failing to pick up a rat to toss it by the tail out of a tavern leading to every Kuraci guard in a five mile radius leaping to my defense. That code is working as intended, because the code is imprecise and doesn't have coded contingencies to account for all possible IC scenarios. That is the limit of using code to translate the infinite array of IC scenarios. The fact that crim code is so imprecise is what requires a 'how to'. If the code was designed with enough contingencies that it never triggered in situations that didn't make sense then I would agree that finding out IC is appropriate.

But that isn't the case so that argument holds no water.

Edit: To elaborate, no one is (or at least I'm not) arguing for a code overall that changes the behavior of the criminal code. Rather, it's about having the reasonable ability to predict the outcomes/consequences of your behavior. There's two ways to achieve this. One is by having your code be very very very precise such that the outcomes are very reasonable -- rats don't get butchered for attempted homicide when someone fails to grapple them, ect. The other is by being transparent with how your imprecise code works, so people can understand the consequences.

Another example of this is when a low level clan Kurac entertainer was refusing to follow orders from a high ranking Garrison individual a while back, before the Luir's overhaul. I couldn't understand why the Garrison person wouldn't arrest that individual, only to find out much later that because the guards were all clanned Kurac still, the Garrison officer attempting to arrest the Kuraci would have led to the "Garrison" NPCs killing their officer, which is not an IC response and should not be 'found out IC'. Luckily my officer was savvy enough at the time to not attempt the arrest. That's the sort of insider, OOC knowledge of code-quirks that a guide should contain. NPCs have clans and even law enforcement NPCs will assist criminals if the criminal is in their clan.

[Jihelu]

Obviously the captain should have attempted the arrest and have gotten killed to learn the code /sarcasm

[Namino]

Oh, oh! I forgot the one time where I was standing in a clan-hall with the PC blooded member of a GMH who had commissioned me to kill one of his employees, and the PC GMH member, sitting right beside us, was like, "do it now." And then all of the house guards decided that their boss didn't know what was best and tried to gang up on me to save the person that their house was ordering assassinated, while instantly reporting me to the outside authorities.

You can't maintain your contact...
You're now wanted!
You wound <redacted> on her body with a brutal stab.

129/129h 124/134m 110/120st| light | walking | before dawn Terrin

The greying, one-eyed half-elf joins <redacted> fight!
The greying, one-eyed half-elf pierces at you, but you dodge out of the way.
You lead the greying, one-eyed half-elf's attempt to disarm you and reverse it.
You knock a slender wooden flight arrow from the greying, one-eyed half-elf's hands and send  it
flying west, bouncing off the closed door.

129/129h 122/134m 113/120st| light | walking | before dawn Terrin

The greying, one-eyed half-elf hits at you, but you dodge out of the way.
The greying, one-eyed half-elf draws a black-hilted bone longknife.

The above was not IC. Unless you're suggesting we then should have killed that half-elf NPC for insubordination. These occurences happen because the code isn't precise enough to account for complex IC scenarios like the above. We're not expecting there to be hard coded answers for everything, but not every coded quirk is a 'find out IC' moment. None of the above was IC. It was just code shenanigans. The fact that this sort of thing is OOC and not IC is evidenced by the fact that moments later a staffer set me unwanted because it was clearly not appropriate given the situation.

[In Dreams]

REDACTED.

[Cerelum]

I'm against absolutely anything that would make burglary or thievery easier, including code clarity.

It's already wildly easy, with virtually zero ways to realistically respond to it.

I think you have some knowledge of the code that we don't.  Because I've been on damn near deserted streets with no soldiers or templars within near, far or very far distance in the middle of the night and become wanted.

[Dresan]

@eyeball

Sorry don't really agree that indie merchants suffer because their chalton hides get stolen. Or that taxes are a problem, not when you can still  have 20K+ just sitting on their bank account without anything to spend it on.

Ultimately, your coins are all safe at the bank. As for everything else, regardless whether you are indie or not, if you lose it...meh. Rp getting it all back if its so valuable and important to your character's well being.  This is starting to sound as if some people believe there should be more ways to protect you in-game stuff?

Again have played indi merchants, this was never the problem.

[rinthrat]

I'm against absolutely anything that would make burglary or thievery easier, including code clarity.

It's already wildly easy, with virtually zero ways to realistically respond to it.

I think you have some knowledge of the code that we don't.  Because I've been on damn near deserted streets with no soldiers or templars within near, far or very far distance in the middle of the night and become wanted.

Did you check if that room had a hidden up exit? Sometimes, soldiers follow a wanted char that climbs up a building partially up the wall, then remain there until the next reboot.

[Eyeball]

@eyeball

Sorry don't really agree that indie merchants suffer because their chalton hides get stolen. Or that taxes are a problem, not when you can still  have 20K+ just sitting on their bank account without anything to spend it on.

Yes. Chalton hides are it. Those are what indie merchants make their killings on.  Those are what the thieves target.

Ultimately, your coins are all safe at the bank. As for everything else, regardless whether you are indie or not, if you lose it...meh. Rp getting it all back if its so valuable and important to your character's well being.  This is starting to sound as if some people believe there should be more ways to protect you in-game stuff?

Again have played indi merchants, this was never the problem.

You might as well keep your coins in the bank, because if you spend it on anything that's actually worth something (even furniture), it will be gone soon enough. And if you try to maintain a stock (you know, something businesses tend to do?) so you don't have to greb up the materials and make the item(s) on the spot when ordered, anything of any value (e.g. wood in Allanak) will be gone soon enough too.

Until a templar checks your balance and decides he or she deserves that money, but that's another issue.

Who wants to 'craft x into y' a thousand times over a long period just to enrich templars and thieves.

[Cind]

Should we split off the thread to talk more about the realities of pc crime after the guild changes? It seems like this is a real problem based on what some of you are saying.

[Sokotra]

I'm not sure everyone here has actually played a thief from the ground up before.  It's not as easy as you think, given the danger involved.  Stealing a piece of bread could mean your death.  Sure, there are some easy ways to make some coins but you can also very easily get caught and killed even at a higher skill level.  Not to mention having the whole city after you if you get noticed a couple times.  So sure, I guess it can be easy sometimes - if it is worth risking your life.  The reward versus risk has to be kept in consideration.  As far as warehouses and the like, in the past I have very rarely been able to break into any warehouses, let alone find anything of value.  So maybe I just haven't played enough to master everything and know exactly where to go and what tools to use, but if you are missing your chalton hides then maybe you have some thieves in your own clan, which is great.    Keep in mind that a thief might be wanting to use her talents to eventually accrue the same sort of wealth that your merchant has.  Or maybe just enough to do whatever it is they are wanting to do.  Also, there's a difference between occasionally missing an item or two and being completely robbed naked every month or whatever.  I think people might be freaking out a little too much and causing, perhaps unrealistic, danger to their own lives over missing a replaceable item occasionally in a world or city full of thieves and liars.

[Eyeball]

Also, there's a difference between occasionally missing an item or two

Not sure why there isn't a "laugh your guts out emoticon", else I'd put one here. Respect if you played thieves who would employ moderation, but that's definitely not all thieves.

[titansfan]

I've always left tribute and that seems to work really well.  Its like paying a bodyguard to keep your body safe. Especially if you're wealthy enough to have things worth a lot.

[Sokotra]

Also, there's a difference between occasionally missing an item or two

Not sure why there isn't a "laugh your guts out emoticon", else I'd put one here. Respect if you played thieves who would employ moderation, but that's definitely not all thieves.

I hear you.  Yeah, if it's not an inside job (or someone next door?) then I guess maybe someone could be loading up with an unrealistic amount of large items... Or you were in a bad neighborhood (most of Zalanthas) or you became a prime target for some reason, like rivalry/competition, larger clans trying to maintain their monopoly, etc.  I suppose there's plenty of IC possibilities aside from someone being unrealistic (or desperate?).

[Vex]

I've always left tribute and that seems to work really well.  Its like paying a bodyguard to keep your body safe. Especially if you're wealthy enough to have things worth a lot.

This, here, was my favorite part of thieving, especially as an elf. It was great fun to clean out merchants, until they broke down and quit, or figured out they needed to leave me a cut of their profits. In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors, but only a couple ever bothered to just leave a pouch with, a few hundred coins in it. The one's who did, were not only safe from my cleaning out their ridiculous, huge, massive "stock" (which is code, for "So I can max out the npc merchants on reset", fyi) of silk dresses, expensive weapons and armors, and tools (taking merchants tools is super effective!), but I also (violently) kept other thieves away whenever I could.

Most, though, get really angry, probably really angry oocly, dig in their heels, and try to make a grudge match out of it, and lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

I really, really want to play another elf... humans, are just too boring.

[In Dreams]

That sounds good, Vex, until they start just taking the tribute and continuing to loot everything anyway. There's no way to stop them from doing it.

Yes, this happens.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

[Cerelum]

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

I had a merchant once who bought furniture and all sorts of shit because I was making a metric ton of money.

Apartment robbed and ten hours later, all furniture gone, all goods gone.

[Eyeball]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

[Cerelum]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

This is a whole different conversation and thread.

[gotdamnmiracle]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Wow. I didn't even see this quote before. I don't think you should be allowed to play an elf anymore, let alone a PC with sneak/hide. You obviously aren't using it properly and are just greifing people with it. I hope you got player complaints for this or at least learned your lesson.

[Sokotra]

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

Yeah, it sounds like Vex either went a little overboard, is exaggerating, or had some really good IC reasoning behind his/her actions.  *shrug*  You can actually stuff a whole lot of silk items into a small bag in real life, but I agree that carrying a bunch of shells and other bulky items out the front door would be pretty silly.  Several small/medium sized weapons secured properly wouldn't be out of the realm of realism, though, imho.  I tend to play my thieves pretty "generous" for lack of a better term, even though I do "stupid" stuff to get caught sometimes, I still try to keep it as realistic as possible.

[Vex]

That sounds good, Vex, until they start just taking the tribute and continuing to loot everything anyway. There's no way to stop them from doing it.

Yes, this happens.

Nothing to be done, but to tough it out.

Tbh, those types tend to die VERY quickly, either to their own hubris, or to non-amateurs getting annoyed with them causing a ruckus, and making everyone on guard.

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

I mean clean out, as in clean out. You can apply whatever villainous, imaginary bad rp you want. You lack context, and I won't give it to you.

Here's another one, from a while ago, to throw some petrol on the fire.

In one instance, I broke in and looted to manageable on the best stuff, smashed up the furniture, and dumped feces into the bags and chests of the rest, so as to ruin ALL the stuff I COULDN'T take. And then, I left the door open, with an ldesc enhanced object outside, so EVERYONE coming into the hall, would see the door was open, and the interior was trashed.

In another instance, I shoved someone's furniture off their balcony, and left it ldesc'd as smashed to pieces on the road below.

Why did I do it? What was the cause? You don't know, and I won't tell you. I'll be your bad guy, happily! Let your imagination, run wild and free!

Wow. I didn't even see this quote before. I don't think you should be allowed to play an elf anymore, let alone a PC with sneak/hide. You obviously aren't using it properly and are just greifing people with it. I hope you got player complaints for this or at least learned your lesson.

I've never had a player complaint, nor a punishment. I'm rather thorough in my RP, and every time I ruin a life, I do it because they've done something to deserve it.

If you don't want bad people to come calling, maybe, don't call out bad people? If you aren't tough, dangerous and connected, don't act like you are.

So many people, could avoid so many hardships, if they built up to being a badass, or an influential person, instead of wanting to be one, before they're out of their chalton boots.

C'est la vie, GDB.

[Namino]

...

NeildeGrasseTysonBadassMeme.png

[gotdamnmiracle]

You see, I think you're misunderstanding why I called your RP garbage. The "petrol to the fire" you described is perfectly fine. It sounds like you did a decent job of making a scene, but cleaning out is not that. When you carry out someone's set of cylani shelves like a moving company the justification would have to be a stretch no matter how IC you make it. Furthermore, an Allanaki city elf wouldn't chase someone across the Known to torture them and steal all their shit constantly. But a player with a vendetta would and would jump through whatever acrobatic hoops to get there. Just like a twink will jump through some ridiculous RP hoops to be able to skill-up on the three creature in the Known worth it. That way if they get called out they can shriek "but you don't know the context!".

...

NeildeGrasseTysonBadassMeme.png

Lol

Edit: deleted a comment that sounded mean in retrospect.

[Vex]

But you don't know the context.

[Inks]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

[Dresan]

Just to be clear,

1. I find no issues with players getting robbed blind and being left naked. I've been on the receiving end of this, and who hasn't stolen from someone knocked out from climbing? Losing gear is not the end of the world, particularly in this game. I didn't fully like the argument against pking but I can kinda understand the frustration of some players in certain high risk roles. However, no sympathy for losing virtual loot at all. 

2. Additionally, you don't need hide,sneak, or steal in order to do this, sometimes a good maul does a better job of allowing someone to rob someone else blind or just good old betrayal. Therefore, getting stolen from wouldn't be an issue related to stealth classes as it would not stop people being robbed blind even if they did not exist. 

@eyeball: I don't disagree there are some issues with indies. However, the issues I've had with indie merchants and just indies in general aren't really code related or player related. In my opinion, being given a fortress of solitude and never losing stuff wouldn't solve any of my perceived problems.However, all this is a derail from the original thread. 

[MeTekillot]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

That's the point.

[Cerelum]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

[Inks]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

Was talking about NPC, ya.

[Veselka]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

Was talking about NPC, ya.

I agree wholeheartedly. The rooms with 6-10 Half Giant NPC Soldiers are a bit ridiculous. I know it's a lapse in the patrol code, but still...It's beyond a Goon Squad.

[Cerelum]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

Was talking about NPC, ya.

I agree wholeheartedly. The rooms with 6-10 Half Giant NPC Soldiers are a bit ridiculous. I know it's a lapse in the patrol code, but still...It's beyond a Goon Squad.

I almost want to ICLY ask a Templar about why there is rooms with SEVEN guards in them, but I don't feel like dying... So Hint hint templars, go spread around your soldiers.

[MeTekillot]

There should really only be like 3 half-giant soldier NPCs in Allanaki proper, you figure they'd keep the rest in the Noble's Quarter.

[In Dreams]

I always assumed the giants were a kind of representative for the general power and presence of the militia in general. It's the police state of an iron-fisted tyrant who has half the population enslaved. There are soldiers all over the place. They might not care a lot of the time, but if you mess with the law it's meant to respond not just with force, but with overwhelming force.

It's probably easier to represent that with a couple giants than with 10 soldiers running in and spamming the room with yelling and attacks.

That's just my interpretation, anyway.

[Eyeball]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

That's the point.

And I pointed out some of the many reasonable anti-theft measures that are being denied to characters just to keep them vulnerable to thieves.

I mean, I get that Bartle Killer and "Murder Corruption Betrayal" types want this to be like a FPS with a veneer of RP on top, where they quickly kill/screw or get killed/screwed, and to them merchants (non-GMH) are just carebears to be sneered at/prey upon. Others actually would like to build something.

EDIT: Six out of the fifteen classes are predominantly merchants now. Maybe a notice should be affixed to each of these that if they're not intending to join a GMH, they're best combined with the Nilazi subguild. Or the player should be actively seeking an exercise in frustration.

[Tekky]

I don't care what the context is, but Vex - that sort of mindset borders on easily becoming griefing. Your effort, the provided result and the amount of "fun" it creates does not equal the investment in time/effort the other party made into it. While I am not saying we should play it fair, but ruining a whole PCs accumulated efforts in one fell swoop is akin to PKing some. It makes players OOCly despondent, unwilling and as you said they dig their heels.

It promotes an unhealthy OOC culture.

A succesfull merchant is suppose to bribe the templars, the soldiers, their gatherers and then also every burglar active in their setting? And manage to have an OOC life? RIP.

[Hauwke]

The problem isn't the number of bribes. It's the amount players expect as a bribe. A large as a bribe so you don't rob my apartment this month? Dude that is literally more money than most commoners will see in their life time and you expect it as a little side action?

[gotdamnmiracle]

The problem isn't the number of bribes. It's the amount players expect as a bribe. A large as a bribe so you don't rob my apartment this month? Dude that is literally more money than most commoners will see in their life time and you expect it as a little side action?

Then there's the part where it's never properly communicated that you expect a bribe. I understand that bribery should be an obvious response to anything in Arm, but robbing every scrap of furniture, raw hide, and chunk of rock from someone's apartment doesn't communicate "bribe me". In fact, I'd argue that it doesn't communicate anything at all. For all the player knows he lost everything in a weird bug or crash because there was zero scene set for them to react to.

Incidentally when this happened to my PC I contacted the AOD at the time and bribed them to specifically hunt down anyone wearing the full set of heavy armor that was stolen and not only was that PC captured, but summarily executed. I am willing to bet you the bribe to the soldiers was a lot less than the one he would've expected for my shit back too. Incidentally, the AOd probably would've never found him if he didn't steal an ENTIRE SET of armor, excusing how loud and obvious that would be to lug out of an apartment.

[Sokotra]

The problem isn't the number of bribes. It's the amount players expect as a bribe. A large as a bribe so you don't rob my apartment this month? Dude that is literally more money than most commoners will see in their life time and you expect it as a little side action?

Then there's the part where it's never properly communicated that you expect a bribe. I understand that bribery should be an obvious response to anything in Arm, but robbing every scrap of furniture, raw hide, and chunk of rock from someone's apartment doesn't communicate "bribe me". In fact, I'd argue that it doesn't communicate anything at all. For all the player knows he lost everything in a weird bug or crash because there was zero scene set for them to react to.

Incidentally when this happened to my PC I contacted the AOD at the time and bribed them to specifically hunt down anyone wearing the full set of heavy armor that was stolen and not only was that PC captured, but summarily executed. I am willing to bet you the bribe to the soldiers was a lot less than the one he would've expected for my shit back too. Incidentally, the AOd probably would've never found him if he didn't steal an ENTIRE SET of armor, excusing how loud and obvious that would be to lug out of an apartment.

I guess he could have worn the armor out of the building as a disguise or whatever, who knows.  Well, sounds you were able to do something about it and he payed for it with his life instead of just returning the armor plus a fine, etc.  Sounds a little ridiculous from both sides, but I don't know what else occurred.  Same stuff (death sentence) can happen over items that aren't very costly and are replaceable, so the thief might claim it to be "unfair" as well, if they wanted.

Also, from what I have seen there is usually tons of raw materials and junk laying around that doesn't get stolen aside from a couple of more valuable items.  So it really doesn't seem to me that people are regularly getting cleaned out.  I guess on occasion maybe someone is doing that sort of thing for whatever reason, IC or not, I don't know.

So anyway, we have this tension between merchants and criminals... which perhaps is just reflective of what is or should be going on in the city or just how the game world works in general?  Aren't there IC ways of working this out so a merchant character can eventually progress to a more secure location to operate out of?  (or bribe the militia to find the thief, as was done above, although think about realism from both sides... as in, would they risk causing more trouble over a replaceable item or two and would the militia really put that much time into finding said thief)  And a thief, well, might get better but they are still risking their life whenever they steal something.  I'm not really sure where the unfairness comes in except maybe where people are acting like theft should never happen and the thief might get hunted down and killed over a bit of chitin and bone.

[Vex]

I don't care what the context is, but Vex - that sort of mindset borders on easily becoming griefing. Your effort, the provided result and the amount of "fun" it creates does not equal the investment in time/effort the other party made into it. While I am not saying we should play it fair, but ruining a whole PCs accumulated efforts in one fell swoop is akin to PKing some. It makes players OOCly despondent, unwilling and as you said they dig their heels.

It promotes an unhealthy OOC culture.

A succesfull merchant is suppose to bribe the templars, the soldiers, their gatherers and then also every burglar active in their setting? And manage to have an OOC life? RIP.

Yes, unhealthy ooc culture. This is, ultimately, where I'm going with this.

When someone is robbed, be it in their apartment, their person by STEAL command, or some other thing, the typical response in game, is EXACTLY the response I got here, in this thread. It's hyperbole. It's assumption. It's glass half-empty. It's illogical, knee-jerk, judgement in spite of basic reasoning.

It's someone hamming it up in the extreme, about how EVERYTHING was stolen, HOW did they fit the WARDROBE and BED through the DOOR! The picture painted is never, I was robbed, they stole all my underwear and jewelry. It's "I was robbed, the thief is a cheater!", wrapped in the most thinly veiled in-character wrapper. If anyone with sense, and the willingness to to use it, goes back and reads what was written... how likely does it sound, that would ever scrape past staff scrutiny?

There's no context, there's no rhyme or reason, it's a string of blatant antagonism, that people are quite eager to embrace. This is because the ooc culture, as you say, is such that a thief or petty criminal, is more loathed by players, than any other archetype in the game. We actively, aggressively, ic and oocly, paint rogues to be "twinks", or "BAD RP!", without typically ever really knowing what happened.

Really, as an often lurker type pc, what usually happens is someone breaks into an apartment, steals a duffel of goods, and leaves. Later, a neighbor is walking through the building, notices a door open, and drags that nice nightstand or dresser across the hall, into their own apartment.

Enter the victim, who goes to the tavern, full of the ooc rage most players have for rogues, and starts hamming it up, about "thieves" stealing "everything". Technically, true, but the way it's presented to other pcs, and the players, is that the CLASS: THIEF PC is a BAD RP'ER!

We're rather eager to assume the worst, and leap to whatever flimsy excuse we can get, to judge. This is ESPECIALLY true, when it comes to thieves.

Really, look how easy it was to pull people in? The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

The implication is always, the rogue is cheating. Stealth is broken. A rogue skillset can only be conceived as a greifing tool.

In almost every situation, you know nothing of the motivations and the happenstance. You stumble upon the end result, as he victim or passerby, and the assumption is made.

We even had one, using "context", like it's laughable.

If you don't know for certain, and you cannot possibly if you aren't staff, you lack the context and perspective to judge.

You don't know, but it never stops people from painting the most deplorable picture, given any opportunity.

Rogues, are always cheaters. It's too easy to play a rogue. My stuff got stolen, I wasn't there, I don't know the context, or even when it happened, or how many separate parties were involved, or what any of their motivations are. I better get to the Gaj, and lose my gotdamnmind, because it must be bad rp!

While I am not saying we should play it fair, but ruining a whole PCs accumulated efforts in one fell swoop is akin to PKing some. It makes players OOCly despondent, unwilling and as you said they dig their heels.

Your argument makes no sense, here. You're pandering to a popular opinion, that finds its roots in nothing. If it is the same as pk, do you suggest pk creates am unhealthy culture?

At what point, is it "ok" to pursue someone for injuries rendered? If the pc does not feel it, if the player does not appreciate the consequences, is there any point to it? Thieves, should not take more than the player is willing to have their pc lose? The thief will become immediately hunted, upon discovery. Globally. What if the thief, becomes despondent, at being more hunted than sorcerers? Is that fine, thems the breaks? Explain it to me.

Tell me about your ideal ooc culture, and how we can have a game, where nobody has to feel bad, or lose. I'm wholly interested in hearing about it. The mental gymnastics involved, must be really, bloody spectacular.

It promotes an unhealthy OOC culture.

There is nothing healthy, about any aspect of Armageddons "culture".

[Tekky]

Okay, what I meant was simply do your actions IC contribute to the overall fun both IC and OOC? Clearly you painted a scenario in the post I commented on that you were going out of your way to punish people because of their OOC unwillingness to get robbed.

There are player complaints you can send as a burglar too.

What my experience is with burglarly, is that I have never noticed it untill my character's whole apartment suddenly gets cleaned out. Perhaps a script could be added where someone goes and locks the doors every IC day or two? As to prevent neighbour robbery, if that now is the culprit?

The problem seems to be that we have a "culture" where staff and players always agreed that if you take from a player you should provide something in return, as a general rule. You don't get that feeling with a burglar or a pickpocket. Both your character and you as a player invested time to aquire something and then it is gone. Which just adds another timesink to the game.

I am not saying we should remove burglarly and I think pickpocketing is fine (except lol stealing bastard swords), but this is the sort of area that Armageddon can take a big long hard look at and ask themselves some questions. What if you have to take a couple weeks break and can't log in. You are bound to lose all your shit, even if you can manage to log in to pay rent. It just seems like such an incomplete system designed to punish anyone who wants to own a couch, let alone a chest of chalton hides. And especially if you're a new player and have no idea how to appease twenty invisible elf burglars.

[Nameless Face]

The problem seems to be that we have a "culture" where staff and players always agreed that if you take from a player you should provide something in return, as a general rule.

This does not sound anything like the Armageddon advertised on the website.

[Vex]

The problem seems to be that we have a "culture" where staff and players always agreed that if you take from a player you should provide something in return, as a general rule.

What game, are you even playing? Are you Bobops alt account, or something?

[Alesan]

I've found this thread so far interesting to read, but can we not devolve into attacking each other personally, please?

[Tekky]

Well. This devolved quickly.. To clarify yet again, perhaps. What I mean is that a negative interaction for a player's PC shouldn't, as a general rule of thumb, be a negative experience for that PC's player. If we can mitigate this as much as possible, why don't we?

Or do we play this game to punish people's "fun"? I sense a huge amount of spite and hate here. If you as a criminal do not trust your victims to behave accordingly, how can a victim trust a criminal? And it all sort of escalates into bullshittery from there.

But I somehow feel we de-railed this entire thread.

[Veselka]

Picking locks should have some crime code consequences, or be related to sleight of hand in some way.  It currently has none that I'm aware of.

[In Dreams]

What I mean is that a negative interaction for a player's PC shouldn't, as a general rule of thumb, be a negative experience for that PC's player. If we can mitigate this as much as possible, why don't we?

Or do we play this game to punish people's "fun"? I sense a huge amount of spite and hate here. If you as a criminal do not trust your victims to behave accordingly, how can a victim trust a criminal? And it all sort of escalates into bullshittery from there.

I liked everything written here, a lot. I can't speak for others, but I don't really play on Armageddon to compete, spite anyone, or get one over on other players. I've never tried to win Armageddon. I'm not accusing anyone else of it either. But it often feels like there's a small subset of players who're mostly here to rejoice in stuff that feel like very thinly-veiled "griefing," for lack of a better term. I don't even necessarily have a problem with that. Everyone enjoys different stuff. You do you! But, for most of that kind of behavior there's some kind of way to deal with or prevent it.

If somehow another powerful PC has managed to completely superduper-max-level his skills through intense daily mekillot hunting or whatever... he can still be stopped. They're a magicker? Still stoppable. They're a half-giant or mul? Still stoppable. They're a magical half-giant templar with a metal sword? It'll be harder, yes, but rest assured, they can still be dealt with. Even a code dummy like me could devise some way that they could most likely die from player actions. For all of Armageddon's many scattered principles and diverse ways to enjoy playing it, nothing and nobody is immortal except Tektolnes and Muk-Utep. And that's how we like it! Harsh! Gritty! We're all tough and rugged and enjoy suffering here, yarrrr! Scars! Sandstorms! The Byn! Allanak, fuck yeah!

The "problem" with stealth and thievery, in contrast, is that there is actually no way to deal with or prevent it, and that's not an exaggeration. A thief with the highest possible skills simply can't be detected moving through any city environment unless either they screw up royally, or they choose to be.

To illustrate this with a sense of realism, if this is a PC of the right class in an absolutely barren 5x5 room with full lighting, no shadows, low ceilings and no available cover whatsoever, they're still not just hard to detect, they're completely invisible. Even if you have the highest possible skills used to detect them at your disposal and they're standing right next to you examining the straps on your shoes, they're invisible. There's something wrong with that.

That doesn't mean that all thief PCs are horrible, that they don't have valid IC reasons to steal or torment other PCs for whatever IC reasons their players believe is right. That doesn't mean that Armageddon should become soft, allow resurrections, and cater to slow, klutzy, flowery-emoting low-machismo losers that just aren't tough enough to put on their shades and "deal with it", but the situation I laid out in the last paragraph? That's actually possible, and there's something wrong with that.

[Veselka]

Ultimately, code is the beginning and the end. If it is limited by code? It isn't possible. If it isn't limited by code? It is possible.

Further guidelines like documentation allow for nuance between those extremes. I would posit that things like "Player Complaints" allow for a PC to bring something to Staff's attention if they think there has been abuse of the code by a player, and ultimately, Staff is the arbiter of that decision. If there is follow up to that complaint, Staff rarely tells you about it. They say thank you for bringing it to their attention, and call it a day. If it goes further than that, or they require logs or your participation, they'll let you know, but I haven't found them to do that often in my own player complaints.

I file player complaints regularly. I don't really treat it as a complaint, and in fact, it might be better to semantically call it something different. I think people are discouraged from using it as a check because they think they're snitching or otherwise judging another Player. Calling it something like "ATTN: Staff" would be a more accurate use of the request, I think.

I've filed player complaints in the past against New Players. What?! What?! Such an asshole...No, not really. Because the nature of the complaint is completely encouraging. I may point out to Staff that this incredibly new player could really use some guidance if they have a second, that they're really enthusiastic but maybe don't get the setting of the game, mention metal swords, and how they're a 'Barbarian from the Cold North'. The Player Complaint in this instance isn't a complaint, as much as a 'Attn: Staff. This newbie seems cool, could you help them out?'

Similarly, a player complaint I might file about a burglarizing or something (Not that I have, or would really, about that kind of thing) might be "Could you look into this for me and see if it's kosher?" Because I, the Player, have nowhere near the resources or capability to make an objective decision about something like that. I have hearsay, I have what my PC has seen, and a complete grey void in-between that. I don't know the 'Absolute Truth' about the matter. Staff have the ability to check run-logs of specific rooms. They can provide the 'Context' that Vex mentions, by seeing things again my PC can't see (Thinks, Feels). They can decide, and should ultimately being the ones deciding, if everything is kosher. So Filing a Complaint is the only way you can seek and find closure for something like this.

For better or worse, if it is possible via code, then it is up to the Player/PC to decide if it is feasible or realistic. People will react differently to that nuance. Some will err on the side of caution, even if it is codedly possible. Others will live and die by the code, and I think that is fine too. If Staff really thought it was an endemic problem, they would (and have) fixed code surrounding these kinds of issues. A recent example would be latching/unlatching things in your equipment and getting crime code thrown at you. They clearly saw this was an issue, and fixed it. If there is a similar code issue here (rather than a discussion of player culture), I'm sure you can and should file a request about it.

[In Dreams]

I guess the culture problem is between that situational paragraph and the first one I wrote describing a particular playstyle. If a player has the absolute power to move invisibly through basically anywhere and decides to play in that particular "style", accelerator to the floor in the direction of "how can I trouble other players, mostly just for the sake of it," that's where problems come from. We can maybe expect most players to use nuance, but some just won't. If the code allows it, it will be done.

The only real solution is to probably adjust the code so that there are player-based solutions to what's otherwise near-invincibility in the form of high-skilled stealth.

[Veselka]

Which is where the 'Player Complaint/Attn: Staff' request comes in. If you think someone is abusing the stealth code, or code in general, bring it to Staff's attention, and let them decide. We can harbor all the grudges we like against what we consider to be 'Griefers' etc. But ultimately the only thing we can do is either let it go, bring it to Staff's attention, or have our PC's come up with a reason to murder them.

[In Dreams]

if this is a PC of the right class in an absolutely barren 5x5 room with full lighting, no shadows, low ceilings and no available cover whatsoever, they're still not just hard to detect, they're completely invisible. Even if you have the highest possible skills used to detect them at your disposal and they're standing right next to you examining the straps on your shoes, they're invisible.

I disagree with you based entirely on this.

This isn't the kind of thing that should need investigation or oversight. It just shouldn't be codedly possible.

Edited for clarity: people should be allowed to play how they want to play. Even people who primarily like to 'win' over others. People enjoy different things and there's nothing wrong with that. The actual problem is when there is no interactivity and no possible response to it.

[Eyeball]

Then there's the whole disparity of effort issue.

The merchant can labor for weeks to assemble a stock (no, it's not just to sell upon the next reboot, if you pay a grebber to get materials for you, you don't do it one log at a time) and make some things and finally acquire a few luxuries.

Then the thief just logs in for ten minutes and sacks any thing of any value (which represents the main bulk of the merchant's labor). And sneers that anyone who doesn't like it has "OOC issues".  And that the merchant should be grateful he or she didn't take the merchant's boots as well.

And now having discovered that someone has foolishly tried to build up some value, repeat visits are inevitable and cannot be prevented.

And it hardly matters if an occasional thief has to face justice. The merchant's weeks of effort are still gone, snorted up the thief's nose or whatever. Others thieves are still operating, and new ones will be along soon enough, maybe even run by the same player.

Why should anyone bother to try without a GMH fortress of solitude. It's a design flaw in the game, that's all there is to it. Or, even worse, it's an intentional flaw aimed at driving characters into clans.

EDIT: It might all still work if some kind of standard was established for leaving out coins. Not enough coins? Don't get pissed and sack everything, just come back all the sooner for the next set of coins. No coins? Maybe some other thief beat you to it. Try again a couple of times before you decide the merchant isn't playing ball. When the merchant dies and stops leaving coins, then sack the place.

Hopeless, though, there will always be those who don't respect such arrangements.

[Cerelum]

Picking locks should have some crime code consequences, or be related to sleight of hand in some way.  It currently has none that I'm aware of.

You get wanted if you pick locks in front of an NPC.  But I don't think VNPCs give two shits.

[Eyeball]

So anyway, we have this tension between merchants and criminals... which perhaps is just reflective of what is or should be going on in the city or just how the game world works in general?

There's no "tension", there are a bunch of merchants being robbed blind and quitting out of frustration, and there are a bunch of thieves with all the advantages laughing all the way to Nenyuk (and even crowing about how they made merchants quit).   

[MeTekillot]

This could probably be solved by letting people hire NPC guards.

[Tekky]

This could probably be solved by letting people hire NPC guards.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

This is still a thing. And possible.

[Nao]

I feel like some of you have the wrong idea about what it is like to play a burglar, and how difficult it is. Or what gets stolen. Raw materials rarely get stolen, because they are heavy and mostly worthless to criminals. Finished goods are.

It's not that easy to burglarize an apartment. Neither is it failsave.

If you're not playing a pilferer, you'll need to obtain a lockpick, and these are much harder to get than some logs (if you are playing a pilferer? Your hide is capped low enough to be easily spotted with maxed scan). Chances are, you will need to get it from another player, either by stealing (deal with crimecode to train that), or expose yourself as a criminal and hope for the best. You might be charged an arm and a leg for those, and you'll probably go through a bunch of them because they break early on, and you can only pick a few locks in the shittiest places early on.

There is no way to pull out and wield or hold a lockpick with sleight of hand. You will need to break hide for that, and become visible. There are a number of 'no-hide' rooms in bare spaces, where you will also become visible, and as a player you have no way to tell when this happens. You absolutely cannot sneak out with heavy furniture or a full suit of armor and stay hidden, because of the penalties you get to sneak when you're just a little encumbered.

If you leave doors open or clean out the wrong places, prepare to being hunted by the entire city, including the guild and other criminals.

Hire other players. Pay criminals for protection, or to check on your door and re-lock it if they find it open. Figure out where the better locks are, and rent these places. Get a buff roommate. Take small and valuable items (gems, mount tickets) with you and keep them on your person instead of in inventory. Leave some poisoned food and drink lying around. Yes, you might still get burglarized every once in a while. It can't be impossible because it shouldn't be. But there are plenty of things you can do to decrease the odds.

[Vex]

So anyway, we have this tension between merchants and criminals... which perhaps is just reflective of what is or should be going on in the city or just how the game world works in general?

There's no "tension", there are a bunch of merchants being robbed blind and quitting out of frustration, and there are a bunch of thieves with all the advantages laughing all the way to Nenyuk (and even crowing about how they made merchants quit).   

There's no "tension", there are a bunch of rogues being ID'd by a fleeting glance and meta-gamed out of existence, by merchants and socials enjoying a game culture skewed exclusively to their advantage. (and cry on the forums, the game is too hard on them).

[Derain]

Tekky player created clans are cool and all but the first year of your warehouse expect to get robbed blind and lose everything until you get a guard.

[MeTekillot]

I absolutely fail to see the problem with indie merchants roving around with gangs of thugs watching their backs duking it out with each other. Just make it so the guards refuse orders to attack people clanned in the noble clans. Also make it so the crimcode only triggers if there's a soldier NPC in sight but that's a different conversation.

[titansfan]

To be honest,  I've played a few different,  successful criminals and never heard these comments before on the boards.  These days, it hardly sounds like I would even want to play one. What the hell are you allowed as a criminal? Nobody knows motivations nor should they unless said criminal gets caught. This sounds like class favorite versus class favorite and not really constructive towards discussing game role-play. We as players are expected to role-play realistically and if we do not, there are checks and balances for that.

[Eyeball]

These days, it hardly sounds like I would even want to play one.

Why shouldn't you want to play one, with the new classes. With so many classes that can make things, the targets have multiplied. As a miscreant, you've the potential to be a fine fighter (and hunter, with the right subclasses). You're a burglar, a pickpocket, an assassin and a decent warrior all in one. You have all the time in the world to perfect your thieving skills as well a plausible cover from your "daylight" role. Then once you've reached the level of invincibility, well, there's little the indie merchant can do (except, as someone pointed out, to wait for two years and hope an NPC guard or two will deter most of it; even then, I wouldn't be surprised if miscreants can just kill the NPCs). Scoop the fruits of someone else's labor in ten minutes when it suits you then go on with your life. If some thieves are being caught, it's because they don't have enough patience to develop properly.

[titansfan]

I wasn't speaking towards the viability of the classes and what they can do codedly. I was speaking towards the incredibly negative reaction said classes seem to be getting. I like to make the game more fun and exciting for others and it seems like these criminal roles are lost on a lot of people.

[Riev]

Tacking on as a Guild-player of ... meh capability...

It is also frustrating for the GOOD burglars in the game, that set up deals, and protection, and "protection markers" or whatever you want to call them. I've had numerous instances where the Guild has set up protections for people paying an extra tax to make sure we stay away from their things.

Only for said apartments to be laid bare, and now we're on the hook for it, because the Guild is supposed to either employ, or KNOW who is around picking doors and such.

The reality is, every clan has picks. EVERY. CLAN. HAS. PICKS. Just ask and you'll find half a dozen lying in some shelf somewhere. And what happens is these clans bring up their own burglar-type characters unbeknownst to anyone outside their organization, and suddenly you have some Kadian Burglar wiping out apartments with little consequence because their home base is a Compound.

(Note to self: Kadian "property reclamation specialist" a new role. Justify carrying out dressers of people who can no longer afford the 'tax')

[Jihelu]

The only reason my merchant gemmed joined Oash was for the storage and space because I knew the likely hood of anyone breaking into the Servant's quarters to steal my 50+ diamonds was unlikely.

I feel like that isn't the healthiest game design.
Then again I did it so lmao idk

[gotdamnmiracle]

-snip-

This. Trying to play as a Guild-boss when some idiot decides to "clean out" every apartment because they spend a day twinking stealth skills up and have enough (AA) elf-strength to carry everything relatively valuable out has made my character want to retire. I honestly considered telling everyone we don't "do" protections because it's simply impossible to try and reign in dudes whose hours are diametrically different from your own and who don't have anything to fear. In reality I would send some goons to gut the guy, but he and I both know codedly I can't.

I hate playing crafter types, but not only is greifing like this screwing their enjoyment and emersion, but other criminals as well. If I had it my way the Guild would murder every independent burglar they could to send the message that that's their turf and NO ONE imposes upon it. Steal unaffiliated at your own risk. I recognize I'm too casual of a gamer to sit in someone's apartment perma-scanning to enforce that.

[Riev]

Lore-wise, the Guild probably can send some pipe-wielding nibbas out to take care of business.

And hell, the Guild itself probably knows exactly who was in there stealing shit, because one of their fences just got a bunch of random things sold off to them.

But as a PC, you're hamstrung. Guild wise. Merchant wise. You're at the whim of the code, which we all know means "I can break in here, open the door wide open, steal a few things, never relock the door, and who cares? No code will find me, and no PCs are monitoring this exact apartment!"

Worse yet, that when someone IS caught, and its some Fale Aide who was given a fancy lockpick because who knows why, and you have to risk political ramifications. I don't have a coded solution for this, other than somehow making a "hidden" PC unable to get past front gate guards, unless they're shadowing someone in.

[Cerelum]

Lore-wise, the Guild probably can send some pipe-wielding nibbas out to take care of business.

And hell, the Guild itself probably knows exactly who was in there stealing shit, because one of their fences just got a bunch of random things sold off to them.

But as a PC, you're hamstrung. Guild wise. Merchant wise. You're at the whim of the code, which we all know means "I can break in here, open the door wide open, steal a few things, never relock the door, and who cares? No code will find me, and no PCs are monitoring this exact apartment!"

Worse yet, that when someone IS caught, and its some Fale Aide who was given a fancy lockpick because who knows why, and you have to risk political ramifications. I don't have a coded solution for this, other than somehow making a "hidden" PC unable to get past front gate guards, unless they're shadowing someone in.

Yeah this is the problem with clan spaces, I can sneak into the noble quarter easily, but the merchant house is impenetrable.