The Benefits of Employment

[boog]

Sure, Locke's group was cool, but he outright hired nonhumans and that's not okay.

A MMH lives and breathes based on who has sponsored it, is sponsoring it, who they can pay off to keep chugging along in an oversaturated market with their niche. Saying it has more power than any GMH is ludicrous and quite frankly speaks to a lack of understanding regarding documentation that makes me wonder if we need staff to create a more understandable hierarchy document, as well as to help, from above, players properly enforcing social strata.

[Veselka]

I mean, I don't think we need to overly worry about how MMH's are represented. I don't know if we've seen an organization get to the point of MMH status for a long time.

There's 'Player Power' and then 'World/Documentation Power', and Jihelu is right in saying valuable PCs (Those that can master craft, those with friends in high places, those with a lot of money) are sometimes given leniency in the social strata. That is accurate I think even to modern standards. However their protection from harm, their longevity, and their ability to out-politic organizations that are 'Too Big to Fail' are typically underwhelming in comparison. I think Staff has/will sort of reinforce that thing in perpetuity. If someone gets too big for their britches...Say, a half-elf master crafter that everyone loves and wants to hit up for their custom loot...I imagine there will be backlash that is represented by the Game World to put them in their actual place. At least, I hope.

[boog]

Historically, that has been untrue when it comes to social backlash for using a non-human. Behind the scenes perhaps the breed proprietor was bothered, but we as players also need to be responsible. If we see someone dealing with a breed or an elf out of something other than necessity, we need to scorn them. Scorn and fear magick. Hate non-Nakkis, or distrust people outside of our tribes.

I think the OP of this thread would be more realistic if we as players picked up our slack on enforcing negative reactions as we are meant to. A GMH crafter is always going to make better shit than some scummy Rinther squatting over the Gaj cook fires. We need to be aware, make this adjustment, help our fellow players realize and understand and acknowledge the potency of skill, rank, and House colors.

[Jihelu]

Doesn't the Garrison hire breeds, dwarves, anyone?

Doesn't the Byn hire breeds, dwarves, anyone?

I've never seen them get backlash for that. It's just accepted. And I'd consider the leader of the Byn, or Garrison, to have more authority than the person who joined Kadius/Whoever, and can sell fancy shit. The leader of the Byn can march several hundred men to Tuluk (Or wherever) can start a skirmish the Arm would have to think twice about starting. (Then again so should they).

The merchant can complain to their superior and get told to deal with it on their own or maybe they throw an assassin someones way.

'Regular' MMH leaders aren't going to have an army, they may or may not even have a guard detail [Actually I think they get an estate so they prob do], but if you seriously think running an entire orginization that /BARE MINIMUM/ has to provide 25k (+ a one time 50k) to the Templarate a year doesn't have the same power as the person over here having to give mommy and daddy cuts of their sales, I don't know what to tell you.

[Riev]

Doesn't the Garrison hire breeds, dwarves, anyone?

Doesn't the Byn hire breeds, dwarves, anyone?

The garrison, moreso as a holdover from elves joining the Kuraci Outriders.
The Byn... has tried. Both as an organization, as a staffing push, and even on a player level... I tried.

The IC power of a merchant isn't easy to flex, as opposed to "I command a unit of 12 ex-rapists and murderers who will do whatever for the right coin. A merchant can make sure your bosses' bosses' boss gets inconvenienced and ensure your name is tied to it. But THAT BOSS is usually a staff animation at best, and inanimate at worst.

Theoretically, the purchasing power of coin is the amount of water your organization can control (or it used to be, who knows anymore). So a rich organization like Kadius "selling fancy items" also controls an incredible amount of water, and possibly has a hand in distribution rights. Tying your wagon to a bunch of rich people SHOULD be amazing, but in a MUD environment it isn't really easy to "see" monetary power vs "I can fireball your face."

[Brokkr]

Actual power can deviate from social hierarchy quite a bit.  But when the PC Templar is deciding who to back in a conflict, it should certainly be a defining factor, along with things like race and usefulness, and certainly far more than your personal coded power.

[boog]

Doesn't the Garrison hire breeds, dwarves, anyone?

Doesn't the Byn hire breeds, dwarves, anyone?

Theoretically, the purchasing power of coin is the amount of water your organization can control (or it used to be, who knows anymore). So a rich organization like Kadius "selling fancy items" also controls an incredible amount of water, and possibly has a hand in distribution rights. Tying your wagon to a bunch of rich people SHOULD be amazing, but in a MUD environment it isn't really easy to "see" monetary power vs "I can fireball your face."

THIS.  Kadius might only have 'luxury' items, but they are probably the face for a lot of other stuff. They are GREAT merchant houses for a lot of reasons. They should be treated as though they are GREAT.

And the Byn is a MERCENARY organization. They are the lowest of the low. They hire anything and everything. They are put on the front lines and they do whatever it is for coin because they are all raggedy ass scummy bitches. You won't see the Scorpions or the Wyverns out grebbing for stones, or being the main force utilized for a trip into the sewers, in front of the lower ranked Sabers. C'mon now, Jihelu. Don't be obtuse.

[Jihelu]

The obtuse one is the person thinking a regular GMH merchant employee can outclass the leader of a clan.

[boog]

Bro, if you're a breed leader of a fledgling MMH, yeah. You don't have as much social clout as a human master crafter in Kadius, Salarr, or anywhere else. You shouldn't. Roflmao. The only real reference I made to crafting was that people'll pay the Rinther crafter for a custom craft and expect it to be just as good as a GMH item -- when it shouldn't be -- or that there shouldn't be repercussions for deciding to hire a Rinther instead of, y'know, the monopoly of the GMHs.

I'm saying that the fact that these groups, in particular the Byn, hire breeds, stumps, whatever they can, is a show of their desperation for coin, and that they should be treated as such. I've got more of an argument than the one you've contrived about an MMH leader not being as powerful as a regular GMH employee. But a hostess of Terash probably *isn't* as potent, or shouldn't be at face value, as a master crafter of Kadius, so to speak.

YMMV, but I think we should all agree not to hire the breed down the corner unless we're desperate. We should be going to the GMHs, who protect and pay for well trained employees, to do our work.

[Jihelu]

Bro, if you're a breed leader of a fledgling MMH, yeah. You don't have as much social clout as a human master crafter in Kadius, Salarr, or anywhere else. You shouldn't. Roflmao. The only real reference I made to crafting was that people'll pay the Rinther crafter for a custom craft and expect it to be just as good as a GMH item -- when it shouldn't be -- or that there shouldn't be repercussions for deciding to hire a Rinther instead of, y'know, the monopoly of the GMHs.

I'm saying that the fact that these groups, in particular the Byn, hire breeds, stumps, whatever they can, is a show of their desperation for coin, and that they should be treated as such. I've got more of an argument than the one you've contrived about an MMH leader not being as powerful as a regular GMH employee. But a hostess of Terash probably *isn't* as potent, or shouldn't be at face value, as a master crafter of Kadius, so to speak.

YMMV, but I think we should all agree not to hire the breed down the corner unless we're desperate. We should be going to the GMHs, who protect and pay for well trained employees, to do our work.

MMH leaders are all human. You can't get past like, tier 3 as a non human. So I don't know where you are getting 'breed leader' from.

And we aren't talking about a hostess of Terash. I'm talking about the person that runs Terash, owns a tea house, and an entire compound.

A hostess of Terash isn't shit compared to a MC of Kadius, though from what I've seen in game people kinda act like they are (Which I don't agree with). The person who runs the entire fucking House? Yes.

[boog]

Yeah, but why is that even being brought up? No one can play Terash's actual leader.

And I'm bringing the breed bit up because it is just a selling point. You dunno if that super long lookin' human is a breed or not after all. :O Sometimes it's hard to tell.

[Jihelu]

Yeah, but why is that even being brought up? No one can play Terash's actual leader.

And I'm bringing the breed bit up because it is just a selling point. You dunno if that super long lookin' human is a breed or not after all. :O Sometimes it's hard to tell.

Because you CAN play a MMH leader, if you make your own clan. (>Implying people get that far but whatev)

And god I hope the merchant house leaders aren't fucking breeds. Merchants are semi-picky with who they let marry and fuck, I assume long before they contract out people they would have avoided the bi-polar people.

[boog]

I think your second bit speaks to what could be the very basis for the OP of this thread: that people sort of ignore the docs when it's convenient to them. It should be disgusting and it should kill any reputation someone has if it's found out, but it doesn't. I think that aversion to enforcing conflict is what makes this sort of confusion crop up a lot! Which is why I'm saying we need to behave better to the documentation of the game.

[Armaddict]

Clans are only as strong as their staff are willing to make them, or as strong as their PC's can make them.

Nobles get ignored by templars when it's convenient.  Templars get ignored by nobles when it's convenient.  GMH PC heads get ignored when it's convenient.  MMH heads get ignored when it's convenient.  Mastermind criminals get ignored when it's convenient.

If you can't flex your own muscles, then your clan will be weakened.  If staff won't flex when things are codedly beyond your grasp, your clan will be weakened.

The benefits of being employed are not coded, are not scripted, are not set in stone.  They will wane and flux based off of the strength of the employer you have chosen which will in turn rise and fall with political atmosphere.  Be a good employee and make them stronger.

Saying players have to act, as a rule, as if the structure chart is anything more than a loose guideline results in very bad playability concerns as far as success and failure of clans (or rather, PC involvement in clans).

And also, everyone deals with elves, boog.  They just don't like to talk about it. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, elves are the second most populous species in the world. Everybody deals with elves - even by proxy.

[boog]

Well, I never.

And yeah. I mean... there's only so much we as players can do, especially if leadership roles are having a struggle in exercising proper IC prejudice or non-fatal, societal conflict. That should be supported by staff.

Like, seeing a breed, we'll say, in a silk piece or two, sitting in Red's, hobnobbing with a noble that *isn't* a Fale (because Fale are cray, y'all)? That... should be something spoken about. Something the proprietor might gossip about. Something aides and servants and the usual crowd would talk about.

I mean, I get that we need staff to help too, but we also gotta start gossip folking and deriding this.

And I never deal with elves if I can help it as a human. Y'all be nasty. Hot dog havin' pecker heads. <3 The only time I deal with elves is when they pickpocket my shit!

[titansfan]

The last sentences in boogs response really bug me. So we have a race that's hardly played, non karma required,  and people completely exclude it from things because our community interprets that our docs tell us to. That seems wrong and counter to what we want with a dwindling playerbase.

I still appreciate you boog, that comment just irked something inside me.

[Veselka]

Yes -- There is a difference between 'ignoring' elves exist, and having to deal with them in an appropriate way. It would be like (for me) trying to avoid <any race> in a metropolitan city. You simply can't avoid people, but how you interact with them is informed by your learned and earned prejudices.

Taking myself as an example, my PCs will always look down their noses at elves, and more-so half-elves. They won't buy them a drink at the bar, even if they're buying everyone else a round. They won't purchase goods from them unless they absolutely have to, and when they do, they assume they're getting an inferior product. They won't casually engage in conversation with them at a bar, but if they're the only one there, curiosity might get the better of them. But that doesn't include simply ignoring they're there, or that elves are the second most populace race in the Known, therefore I likely can't walk down the street without literally rubbing shoulders with one on a busy street like Caravan's Way.

[boog]

Oh, yeah, man. You don't need to ignore them.  Make shady, back alley deals with them, but consorting in public with an elf or a breed? And not giving them shit? Or fidgeting, or grabbing your valuables? I never meant to suggest to ignore them. I meant to treat them as is appropriate to the game setting. I'm sorry if that came off wrong!

[Armaddict]

Just a note that I totally meant that as a playful jab at boog based off of discord conversations rather than a topic shift.

[Veselka]

The last sentences in boogs response really bug me. So we have a race that's hardly played, non karma required,  and people completely exclude it from things because our community interprets that our docs tell us to. That seems wrong and counter to what we want with a dwindling playerbase.

I still appreciate you boog, that comment just irked something inside me.

Bolded for emphasis as well...

I see quite a few people playing elves most of the time. Right now, I can think of maybe 8 PCs that are elves.

[Cind]

I remember people in the Byn sparring hall or the eating hall would always groan when a new elf was put in the ranks. Sure, the Byn can hire them, but anyone who has played a couple of elves knows damn well no one wants to drag them along on a contract, with the no-mounts thing they have.

I don't know if this is accurate, but I always felt like the benefits of being in the Byn were different from joining other clans, enough so so that it would be notably different. And then when you join the Arm, even if you're a recruit, a lot of people seem to be nicer to you. That fear of the Highlord extends a bit to those who wear the patch, although I've had it said to me several times that recruits are just commoners with patches, in a trial year to see if they are worth keeping. Everyday folks at the Gaj don't always treat my recruits that way though. And bynners, aren't exactly respected, to hell with respect if they aren't human. If anything, people approach the bynner table with the intent of starting shit. It seems sometimes to me like having many friends is worth more than being someone no one knows, who is master crafter or aide-in-training.

If you're relatively new, and want to be employed with the intention of gaining what rank a commoner can, if you are interested in playing a respected commoner, I would go for the Arm or being a templar's or noble's aide and staying there, putting all your career time into that job and spending time at better establishments, better taverns. You'll inevitably end up making friends with the people who go to whatever tavern you do, and certain people can be found at the two taverns that are more frequented. The Arbotoreum is mostly a place for nobles to go have secret meetings, from a playing standpoint. I think npc rats spend more time in the Arbotoreum than players do.

If you want to be employed with the intention of getting paid more than other clans, I would go for a noble house. I know that sounds a bit weird, but noble houses are supposed to offer better pay and bonuses than merchant houses, and what experience I have in both types tell me this was true for me personally. In merchant houses, you can craft things and make up the difference likely, and then some, but every merchant you will work under is different, and some will not have the time to go sell your products and bring you a cut, or will want you to focus on something noncoded for a month, or on a mastercraft. Some will be suffering from the ennui of one of the game's most difficult roles and just will not have time for you. The Dasari and Oash nobles I worked for seemed to be more like the people that use up a merchant's time rather than the other way around--- the city gives them priorities to handle, but they don't have to deal with ten mastercraft orders at a time and two crafters who can make them, as an example.

An integral part of a noble's role is to impose the standard upon the city--- the facts that they are more powerful than normal people, imposing their power and will upon non-nobles, and establishing good rapport between their house and the other noble Houses and templars, at least on the surface. Nobles really do have work to do--- but unlike a merchant, they can ignore it to some extent. Playing around powerless commoners for 4 RL years and then suddenly working for someone who, among players, has near-infinite social power is a bit of a doozy. Everything your lord says goes, with almost no exceptions. And they do have money to throw around.

[titansfan]

The uptick is due to player effort to create constructive roleplay. The opening of Two Moons has also oddly helped bring more city elves into the game. Atleast I have noticed the correlation. But, honestly,  elves are excluded from any major events unless they wish to risk getting nabbed and instant jailed if they arent hidden.  Or, which applies here,  they work for the Byn.

There's no constructive roleplay if there isn't some kind of clan to give benefits and protection.  City elves are inherently designed to fail as a playable race due to docs saying they have a hard time trusting and there being no coded choices for them to flock to. Which means, no real employment benefits.

[ShaLeah]

City elves are inherently designed to fail as a playable race due to Which means, no real employment benefits.

Yep. Elves aren't employed.  They survive.  People who play them must like the underdog.
But that said! Elves CAN get employment benefits is many an organization. 5 off the top of my head. 

[Armaddict]

City elves are inherently designed to fail as a playable race due to docs saying they have a hard time trusting and there being no coded choices for them to flock to.

I'd argue, but it might be semantics on something you're already well aware of but just don't enjoy.

Trust is not required to associate.  Trust is not required to deal.  Trust is not required to factionalize.  Trust is not required to assist.

The manner of carrying out tasks that everyone else takes as something 'for a friend', but doing it with a mentality of carefully planned premeditation, is why they elves can be very enjoyable.  Likewise, those situations, being in relationships without trust, are what lead to ample opportunities for what we call testing anyway.  What we currently call testing, I'd call hyper-awareness of relationship growth.