Commoner's View of the Templarate and Militia

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

This is a little something I've been wondering about recently, and I want to hear other player's thoughts and reactions to it.

I was wondering, what a commoner's view of the local militia and templarate would be. Would he or she seem them as protectors, or oppressors? A bit of both? Would a templar using magick (assuming it's not directed at you) inspire mainly awe, or terror? Is the corruption in goverment (bribery, political in-fighting and the like) well-known amongst the populace? If it is, is it even -considered- to be corruption, or is it considered the natural way the state works? Would your average military grunt be considered a respectable and upstanding keeper of the law, a violent oppressor, or would they be considered just another Amos trying to make it in the big city? Are commoners working for and directly with the nobility and templarate (high-ranking advisors, skilled militiamen, military tactitians, tax colllectors, and the like) to be admired considering their closeness to their 'holy' employers? Feared because the possible sway they might hold over their superiors? Would a Red-Stormer/Outposter revere Tek/Muk like a 'Nakki/Tuluki?

Personally, I think it depends on the character's point of view, and where they come from. You average 'Nakki would, in my opinion, by fully aware of the corruption and oppression they experience every day. Though a few might resent their lot in life, I think most would consider it a small price to pay for the protection offered by the Highlord Tektolnes, his templars, and the militia.

Tulukis, on the other hand, would probably try and turn a blind eye to most of the corruption their goverment is riddled with. Firstly, most Tulukis seem to hold their templars and nobles in a higher light (doubtlessly 'Nakkis still firmly believe that their nobility and templarate are higher beings than your average Amos slob, but Tulukis seem to take this idea to another level). This, coupled with the fact that Tuluk tends to be subtler and more under-handed than Allanak might help to hide a few of the 'bad things' that go on in the higher levels of society. With that said, I think only the most oblivious and niave of Tulukis would truly and horrifically shocked to realize that their nobility and templarate and milita aren't living saints, but people acting in their own interests.

Kuracis, being part of a merchant company that thrives on neutrality, would have a unique mindset. A person born in Luir's would probably be relatively indifferent to templars, militiamen, and nobles, but not to the point where they'd put their own ass in danger. If everyone is scraping and bowing, it doesn't take a psionicist to figure out you should too. Now, if the Kuraci in question was born in Tuluk or Allanak, I imagine they would retain a certain amount of respect for the officials of their homeland, though their primary loyalty would doubtlessly be to House Kurac. Similarly, they might secretly loathe and fear officials from the opposing city-state.

A Red-Stormer would have a unique "I don't give a shit" mindset, in my opinion. Red-Stormers seem to know how to roll with punches, and getting the short end of the political stick due to corruption in goverment wouldn't phase them too awful much. On a place that encourages indepedance like Red Storm, a citizen probably wouldn't expect too much cuddly-goodness from officials anyhow.

A 'Rinther would probably loathe the 'Nakki nobility, militia and templarate. They'd likely blame Allanak officials for their living conditions, and they wouldn't be far off the mark. Whether the 'Rinther in question openly hates and opposes authority or cowers in fear would be a individualistic thing.

Tribals would probably consider city-state hierarchies to be backwards and even laughable. What? This fat, silk-drenched noble is better than you, you say? What can a weakling like he offer your tribe? Of course, only a stupid tribal would openly oppose or mock city-state officials while within the confines of the city, like templars. A warrior-priest swinging a scimitar and shooting fireballs is still a warrior-priest swinging a scimitar and shooting fireballs wherever you're from.

Those are my thoughts, I'd like to hear everyone else's.

[Rindan]

I think one of the hardest pieces of the game is getting into an Allanaki (or Tuluki) mindset about nobility and templars.  Simply put, they should be revered and highly respected.  It is very easy to make a character resentful of them, and I personally think that is taking the easy way out of it.  Now, that isn't to say that you still might want nothing to do with them.  I think most people would be convinced they are too stupid and worthless to be in the presence of such people.  Most would simply be afraid to be around such powerful people.  You can respect and fear all at the same time, and fear does not mean hate.

As to Templar magik, it would be a mixed blessing.  First, commoners would see templar magiker as the Highlord acting through the templar to perform a miracle.  It isn't that the templar is casting, the Highlord is just using the templar as a vessel for a miracle.  So, in one respect it would be directly viewing the power of the Highlord, and in this it would be a great blessing.  On the other hand, seeing the Highlord's power first hand is damned scary.  I imagine most people would be terrified that some impure though would cross their mind and they would be found guilty of thinking it.  So, templar magik is a good thing, but it is still scary shit, still something to cower over, and still a damned good idea to avoid at all costs.  I think the "it is good, but please don't make me be near it" would be a common theme for most Allanaki.

I personally think that Allanaki would not recognize bribery as corruption, nor would they recognize the fact that some people get better treatment under the law as corruption either.  It is just the way it is, and the thought that it is somehow unfair is something that wouldn't cross their minds.  Offering a templar a bribe would be common and accepted practice, and it would be a perfectly valid way of dealing with them.  In general, I don't think commoners would recognize their law enforcement as being in anyway corrupt.  I doubt few could imagine it being any other way then the way it is.

You really need to understand that the Templars and Nobility are the reason why the city exists in the minds of most commoners.  In the minds of most commoners Allanak is it when it comes to civilization.  The people that hold together the city is the only thing that keeps them from a quick death in the desert.  What we see as squalor to them is good enough and a lot better then the alternative.  As far as they are concerned, and oppressive government is the only way things can possibly work, and hence isn't oppressive, it is just practical.  Further, the only people who can make such a government work are nobility and templars.  Without these people everything crumbles.  For this reason, must commoners will practically worship these people.

Some exceptions to this rule would be 'rinthers and elves.  Elves have their own sort of society and I imagine they would be more inclined to feel oppressed then protected.  The same goes for 'rinthers.  I imagine (and I could be wrong) that these people would be much less indoctrinated then the average commoner.  That isn't to say that a well off elven merchant is going to make a fuss about the way things are, they probably just have less programming then humans and half elves of the city do.

As far as Red Storm and Luir's, I think that a person from Luir's is born with a radically different mindset then anyone else.  Without going too IC, looking at how Kurac is set up in terms of its leaders really tells a lot about the mentality of the outpost.  It isn't a secret that Kurac will let anyone climb the ranks who is loyal.  An elf still might have it rougher then a human, but compared to the rest of the world it is easy living for the minorities.  I think that a person born in Luir's could actually be considered fairly tolerant.  They might not hug an elf, but I think they might take a less dim view of half-elves and be a little fairer with elves.  They still might respect nobility in a way, but that respect be much less then that of a city born person, and easily lost of said nobility was incompetent.  An industrious noble would be respected, a fat lazy slob of a noble who is just a pleasure fiend would be despised.

Red Storm, in my opinion, is pretty much free reign as far as mentality goes.  I personally always viewed the place of being something like a pirates' outpost.  Fanatical individualism is what I think defines them as a people.  The concept of a strict class would be all but meaningless to them, and so I think they would think nothing of nobility.

Tuluk is made up of savages.  They have no culture to speak of, so I don't really see a point of discussing them.

[Hoodwink]

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/noble.html it says:

The commoners are far more accepting of a wealthy but normal ruling class than they are of Tektolnes and his mystic minions, who tend to terrify, and not comfort, them.

That at least sheds some light on the different view of nobles vs. templars, at least in Allanak -- Tuluk probably has a whole different attitude in this regard.

I don't think there is any question in the mind of the average commoner as to the corruptness of their city-state.  Some people say that commoners should beleive that nobility are truly above them, I disagree.  I think it's more probable that they accept it because they have no choice; they pretend to believe such things, but in the backs of their minds they know what's going on, they're not stupid (even though both city-states religiously enforce an anti-literacy law for the very purpose of keeping the people stupid).  

Though both city-states are unquestioningly corrupt, Tuluk seems to to try to keep the people brainwashed and national whereas Allanak doesn't seem to care if the people feel oppressed.  So you might find perceptions of the nobility/templars less kind than you would in Tuluk.

[Bestatte]

Hoodwink writes:

Some people say that commoners should beleive that nobility are truly above them, I disagree.

It isn't "some people" who "believe" this. It's a fact of the world. It's a genetic absolute. Nobles are superior beings, by virtue of their blood.

From help_nobles:

Born into wealth and power, most nobles expect to be
treated with respect by those of inferior or common blood.

In various threads and posts on this GDB, the staff have reiterated that noble blood is superior blood. It isn't something you can really agree with or disagree with, because it's not an opinion posed by the staff. It's a fact. Just as it's a fact that half-giants are essentially dim in the head, and half-elves are an abomination, and halflings use spears.

[Hoodwink]

I'm not talking about superiority of bloodlines.  I'm not even certain, genetically speaking, what a superior bloodline even is.

I'm saying that while many commoners may apparently submit to the nobility, that doesn't mean in the backs of their minds they aren't thinking something untoward.

[Anonymous]

I'm with CindyLou on this one (I don't believe in Bestatte).  Its a fact of life for commoners in the Allanaki caste system.  They are more knowledgeable than you, better spoken than you, richer than you, and they have their own mini standing army.

[Hoodwink]

Its a fact of life for commoners in the Allanaki caste system. They are more knowledgeable than you, better spoken than you, richer than you, and they have their own mini standing army.

I don't disagree with that statement.

But I also don't think it's unrealistic for a commoner to have a few naughty thoughts somewhere deep down inside about their "betters".

[Anonymous]

But I also don't think it's unrealistic for a commoner to have a few naughty thoughts somewhere deep down inside about their "betters".

A life of opression and having your inferiority drilled into would not exactly foster the sort of self-pride and assurance that would be required for someone to think things.

I'm not saying anyone who dares lift a finger at a noble is a twink or bad for the game.  Its just tiresome when it feels like every commoner out there is like that.

[Bestatte]

I don't believe in CRW so I'll just pretend I'm responding to someone else.

We have the "average" city-born and bred commoner. He is not living in the 'rinth, or in the ruins. He comes from a working class home, if you need to make real-world comparisons. A mother and a father, possibly a few other adult males and females since monogamy isn't the "rule of thumb" (though also an accepted possibility). Various brothers, sisters, etc. etc.. most of whom either work day labor, or are employed as servants or guards in various houses. While they can't afford posh digs, they would normally have some building they can call home. Maybe a 2-room tenement, maybe if they're lucky a tiny house with a loft upstairs.

Everything they own is bought through hard work, paid for by - who? The nobility. The noble houses control their water, their city boundaries, their sewage, the training of their militia (in the south), and most of the other aspects of daily living. Sure, the common merchant house Nenyuk owns buildings and rents them out, but where do you think they get the land to build them from? The nobility, and the templarate.

And yeah - there's all those merchant shops in the city - but who gave them permission to put up shop in the first place? In very general terms, the nobility.

The nobility is the central force that allows commoners to eat, drink, dress, and sleep. The templarate makes sure those commoners remain grateful - and ignorant.

Sure, you might have a beef with a particular noble. Or maybe there's a noble who's just plain crazy in the head. But you wouldn't think of them than "lesser" than you. You would think them superior, but unwell. Or superior, but cruel. It is their -right- to be cruel, because they are better than you are. It is their privilege to be crazy, because they are better than you are. It is their right and privilege to live in a walled up estate, drinking wine served to them by slaves wearing chain-mail loincloths, and taking a dip in their water-filled fountains - because they are better than you.

You would not ever think otherwise. You might not like it. But you would -never- question it. It is a fact of life, bred into your DNA structure as incontrovertible undeniable fact.

[Carnage]

It is a fact of life, bred into your DNA structure as incontrovertible undeniable fact.

Huh?

[aeshyw]

From the official Armageddon Website:

Nobles and Commoners:
One of the important keys to noble/commoner roleplay is to remember not to carry attitudes over from real life. On Armageddon, the vast majority of Allanak commoners, who live and die by the mercy of the Highlord, firmly believe that nobles are nobles because they're better. The same holds true for the nobles, who assume their privileged position is correct because they are of better blood and finer material than a commoner. This attitude is reinforced by their benefits: literacy, which acquires near-mystical dimensions in an illiterate society; vast wealth; social status; and freedom from most of the laws of the city.

Commoners believe that nobles are nobles - because nobles are better then they are - just as a commoner in a feudal society would have believed the monarch better then they are.  It is a position given or taken away not by man - but by a diety - in this case a Sorcerer King whose presence is very visible in every day life.  How many people anywhere do you know of that claim to know better then their diety?

As a commoner, you believe the nobility is better then you are because the Sorcerer King of your choice (And the really scary guys in different colored robes that enforce his will) tells you so.  End of story.

[Impska]

As a commoner, you believe the nobility is better then you are because the Sorcerer King of your choice (And the really scary guys in different colored robes that enforce his will) tells you so.  End of story.

That seems more accurate than this:

It is a fact of life, bred into your DNA structure as incontrovertible undeniable fact.

I'm sorry folks, but the jury is still out in real life about whether behaviour is held in your DNA. I was taught that evidence does suggest that some behaviour is (identical twins seperated at birth can often choose the same sort of career and dress similarly, despite never meeting eachother). On the other hand, some say the evidence is inconclusive and coincidental. There just aren't enough twins seperated at birth to -proove- much.

When you make statements like this, just remember that it's often used to justify "white superiority". People are immediately going to react harshly to it.

As it stands though, a caste system is taught - an Allanaki born child who is raised in Luir's will not automatically think that Nakki nobles are superior. You may be taught that nobles are better because they're born better, but that doesn't make it true.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone, or anything. I just thought I'd explain so that no one else feels the need to be harsh.

[Anonymous]

However, just because you know someone has better blood than you doesn't mean you can't think they're a bastard who deserves to die. True, the sorceror-king would look down upon your treasonous thoughts, but he's not divine, after all.

Here's a question: does the general populace believe their sorceror-king is omniscient? If he can read thoughts, that's skirting dangerously close to being a mindbender.

[creeper386]

The general populace beleives their Sorcerer King is the only thing keeping them from living out in the wilds. The only thing protecting them. They are basically divine to them. Their powers aren't feared because they are unknown scary magicker powers. They are the God-Kings power. It's what protects them.

What Bestatte was saying, I don't think really means that it's coded into their DNA, but it's about the same. It's something thats coded into them from society that nobles ARE better. If they lived in those situations they'd beleive that, there is no choice in the matter.

Now personally, I don't like the opinion that all 'rinthers hate nobility and the militia and everything. I still think a good portion of 'rinthers are just southsiders that ran into hard times. Mostly due to money issues and didn't have any choice but to move into the 'rinth. Sure alot of them might... But most of them are just poor citizens that can't afford anything else.

Creeper

[Hoodwink]

However, just because you know someone has better blood than you doesn't mean you can't think they're a bastard who deserves to die. True, the sorceror-king would look down upon your treasonous thoughts, but he's not divine, after all.

That is exactly what I am trying to say.  As someone born and bred outside of the "West", I'm the first person to promote non-Western viewpoints in the game.  That said, I still think in all fairness we as players should feel more than willing to role-play commoners with whatever viewpoints we wish them to have.  I've encountered countless commoner PCs who've clearly prostrated themselves before nobility, showing their obedience and such, while in privacy have no qualms giving them the middle finger behind their back, so to speak -- and I don't think these were poorly played characters either (despite what documentation you point me to or DNA genetic science you present).  I think saying that the only appropriate role-play for a commoner is to believe he is beneath nobility and act accordingly would be the same as if we said females in Zalanthas are physically and mentally weaker than men.  In other words, I don't buy it.  

I think what the wealth of documentation on the subject is trying to impose is for new players not to get all uppity with nobles and openly talk back to them since, realistically, they would have learned at an early age not to do this, and if they did they could likely face a summary execution.  Whether you have nasty thoughts in the back of your head or trash talk them in privacy or not is a different matter entirely.  And whether you might think Tektnolnes/Muk Utep has the time, ability, and to incliniation read your treasonous thoughts -- and therefore abstain from it -- is also up to you to decide.

[Carnage]

I'm sorry folks, but the jury is still out in real life about whether behaviour is held in your DNA.

It's not even that. When a person is born, they don't suddenly KNOW that x person dressed in y way is better than them. That's not how DNA works.

[Bestatte]

I think y'all are obsessing a little too much with my exaggerated comment about DNA, and not paying all that much attention to the point which I, and a bunch of other people, are making.

Yes, you can loathe nobility. Yes, you can resent that they have what you don't. Yes, you can think that Templar Hardnose is a scum-sucking silt-fucker. But you will STILL know that these people are superior to your low-life commoner ass. You can even use this knowledge as an excuse to hate them. But you will still know this as fact. They are better than you. They have better, they are exempt from the laws, they have more, they waste more in a month than you'll ever make in your miserable excuse for a lifetime.

They ARE your betters. For good or ill. How your RP this fact is up to you. As long as you acknowledge that it is, indeed, fact.

[Rindan]

You are pretty free to play any character you want.  Unless you are truly violating the game world in some major way, the imms will likely never make any attempt to correct you through OOC.  

That said, I think people are missing an important fact.  In the same way elves don't ride kanks, dwarves have a focus, and magik is feared, nobility is respected.  I don't simply mean that everyone is putting on the show of letting nobility think they are better then them, they truly and honestly believe it.  Commoners born in a city state believe nobility are better then they are, and they believe without such people they would simply die and the wastes would consume them.  When they see nobility doing things they can't, they honestly believe that it is absolutely the right of nobility to do those things simply because they are better people and don't feel resentment over this fact.

This needs to be understood as a fact of the game.  This is how these societies view their nobility.  Now, that is not to say you can't be a deviant from this, just realize that when you do this you are making an exception to the rule.  In the same way if you make an abolitionist you are a freak, if you make someone who doesn't honestly believe nobility to be better then them, you are making a freak.  This isn't a western society held under the yoke of a powerful ruler with western morals hidden underneath some façade.  This is an entirely different society which can't even contemplate a government that doesn't have nobility keeping everyone in line.

[Old Timer]

Now, that is not to say you can’t be a deviant from this, just realize that when you do this you are making an exception to the rule. In the same way if you make an abolitionist you are a freak, if you make someone who doesn’t honestly believe nobility to be better then them, you are making a freak. This isn’t a western society held under the yoke of a powerful ruler with western morals hidden underneath some façade. This is an entirely different society which can’t even contemplate a government that doesn’t have nobility keeping everyone in line.

You know, I really think a lot of people don't exactly know what that means when they say western and non-western societies, but that's irrelevant.

Playing a commoner who appears obeisant while inwardly despising the nobility is not a freak.  This is not to be compared with elves riding kanks (for any elf who did such a thing would likely receive quick reprimand and/or loss of base karma), nor is it like a dwarf without a focus (same goes for them as well).  Nowhere in the documentation does it state that you have to role-play in the manner suggested.  You are free to role-play a city-state born human who inwardly loathes his/her "betters".  You are not free to role-play an elf who likes to ride kanks on the weekends or a zen-master mul whose mind is always at peace.

The reason there is little to no religions on Armageddon is for the purpose of individual thought -- and that has nothing to do with western or non-western values, it has to do with playability and action.  You invent gods and goddesses and suddenly people are acting on their deity's behalf, according to their wishes, and we all sit around gossiping like drones in taverns.  Suggesting that we all play loving the nobility and mentally submitting ourselves to thinking they are truly better than us, each and every one, is akin to enforcing AD&D-style alignments (neutral good, chaotic evil, etc.) where we all have to follow a very rigid set of rules and no one steps out of line.

At least as far as Allanak goes, Allanak is its greatest enemy, not Tuluk or anyone else.  Assassinations run rampant therein and this is certainly not because everyone believes nobles are "better" than them -- despite what they may portray.

I think the issue exists when new players show up and dislike being condescended by noble PCs and they mouth back to them, which isn't very realistic.  But that's a far cry from all of us living like drones who believe with our whole of whole that nobles -- the only ones who aren't starving and slaving away day by day while the rest of us suffer and are oppressed -- are truly better than us.

Perhaps the average Allanaki commoner thinks this way, but the PCs do not have to think this with the same enforcement that elves do not ride kanks.  And thank god, otherwise you'd never get anyone trying to assassinate that templar or noble!

[My 2 sids]

I see this board has split topics, so I'll respond to both.

First, the templars and soldiers.  http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.htmlI think sums it up best.  The soldiers are to be respected –because- they work for the templarate.  

Second, this whole idea of nobility.  When I first started playing the game I, wrongly, equated the different social rankings more with modern racism.  That is, I was looking at the social rankings as being accepted because of ignorance.  In reality it's the opposite.  The social ranking comes from people who –know- the differences between classes and race.  Some have suggested players look to fudalism to understand this concept of "nobility being better than commoners"  I'd also suggest the Hindu ranking system.  These people –know- social rankings are for a reason and cannot and should not be questioned.

Although there can be exceptions to the ideas of social ranking, racism, and how important money is... players need to realize that such things are not the prescribed norm of the society.  Heck, ten years from now 'nak might even be a thriving democratic society of equality... but players need to realize what character actions would lead to that.  It shouldn't happen because of player ignorance or not noticing they are letting modern thought slip into their characters.

[Old Timer]

A slave has no room for thought.  They believe with their whole of whole that nobility are truly "better" than themselves, putting their masters above their own wishes and desires, sacrificing their own lives, even, if it will so much as please the noble in question.

Commoners are a different subject, and no matter what anyone says here, it's all speculation and one's own perception.  Mine is that the "mass" of commoners think alike.  They wallow in the squalor and filth that is Allanak, clad in the same tattered sandcloth they've worn their whole life, and will continue to wear until they fall ill to disease and malnourishment, all beneath the corrupt dictatorship of Tektolnes.  This is evident in the NPCs of the game, PCs tend to follow a different trend.  Very few will RP as the NPCs are.  Even the 'Rinther PCs tend to have better lives by comparison to the NPCs.  This is where free will comes into play.  Again, our own western values has nothing to do with it.  It's a game!  It's about strategy and plotting, none of which can be done if we are mindless drones who believe the nobles are holy manifestations above us by divine right.

A commoner PC who scrapes and bows before nobility but secretly plots to backstab them and hates their guts for oppressing them so much is not a freak, he is not abnormal, and he is not to be compared with kank-riding elves or child-prodigy half-giants (the latter of which, both, are a contradiction in terms).

[Quirk]

"Western" is bang on. Another of my periodic suggestions for books Arm players should really read: The Hagakure, or The Book Of The Samurai. Yamamoto Tsunemoto, a samurai in the 1700s wrote it, and although his views seem to have been somewhat extreme even at his time, there is a great resonance in Japanese culture; the mindset of the kamikaze pilots of the Second World War is far more comprehensible once you've read it.

http://www.hut.fi/~renko/hag1.html

It advocates complete, unthinking obedience to the lord in whose service the samurai was retained. Does it address the general commoner case? No. Does it illustrate how vastly different a mindset can be from our own? Assuredly, yes. It is hard, reading through it, to conceive how any could despise their "better" in the social scale unless that better had committed some great trespass against the harsh code of honour that bound them. Torture was commonplace and unremarkable. That a lord would order a retainer to kill himself was also commonplace, and that the retainer would readily do so equally so. It describes perhaps a far harsher world socially than Zalanthas is, but it does demonstrate that not only is the "nobles are better than we are" mindset possible, it's been very much a part of Earth history, and that individual nobility usually strove to convince their retainers that they were better than any other nobles and hence fulfilling their orders overrode anything else.

Quirk

[Old Timer]

All I gotta say is no matter how realistic or historical-based something in Arm is that doesn't mean it's not capital B o r i n g.  There is a fine line we must tread between making something plausible/realistic-to-the-storyline and enjoyable to play out.  Sitting around worshipping nobles all day doesn't accomplish anything, even if it is realistic to the setting.  Some people want to play obedient servants who are tools to their nobles.  Fantastic.  But thankfully not everyone does, and thankfully we have the choice to play naughty commoners or not.

As far as torture goes, you're not going to find as much of it in a world where people can willingly knock themselves out (through telepathy).

The philosophy of wholly believing nobility above themselves suggests noble-assassinations could not exist.  So ya'll go ahead and play boring drones who sit nodding and grunting at taverns, meanwhile I'll be out in the fray, stirring trouble (realistic according to your views or not.)  :twisted:

[John]

True, the sorceror-king would look down upon your treasonous thoughts, but he's not divine, after all.

Says who?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Old Timer, you could not be more wrong if you took a multiple choice calculus test and wrote "fish" for every answer.

The disparities between the nobility and commoners are incredibly vast.  The very mindset of these people is something you have to wrap your head around, it will not seem natural to you, or to anyone else playing, because that's not the way things are in the world today.  But what you have is a group of people who are essentially brainwashed from birth, denied any semblance of education, and have no chance of altering their social status except by association.

I think people who come from other muds come in with a 1600-1700's European view of nobility.  Wrong.  This is feudal Japan or Europe.

True, the sorceror-king would look down upon your treasonous thoughts, but he's not divine, after all.

Also wrong.  As far as commoners are concerned, he's not only divine, but to him and his minions, your thoughts and feelings are an open book.  Templars are terrifying agents, constant physical reminders, of the very real, very present power of the Sorceror-King.  Some few who gain a measure of their own power might rise a bit above this mindset, but generally speaking, it is and should be the exception rather than the rule.

Sure sure, most people would rather play the exception than the rule.  I'll even concede that most PCs are the "exceptional" people.  But that's no excuse to shed the roles defined in the documentation.  An commoner assassin willing to try to kill a noble should be difficult to find.  Part of what makes this game beautiful is the richly defined yet extremely rigid social structure that tends to get ignored in other games.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Old timer, what is fantastic about a world where folks can willingly knock themselves out through telepathy is that the other folks can also stop them from doing it.

*grin*

[aeshyw]

Old Timer,

I would respectfully disagree.  You can easily believe someone is 'better' then you and still hate them.  You could have -very- interesting inner struggles and roleplay trying to justify in your mind the idea of assassinating a noble when you have to 'justify' it against your belief that their blood makes them better.   The potential for inner conflict seems to me to be greater when you believe the nobility superior.  Just because you believe they are better then you doesn't mean you have to -like- them.

In fact, you could believe that Lord Stuffybottom has acted in a way that shames his birthright and it could grate at you as much or more then if he was just some guy pretending to be better then you.  It might offend your sense of honor and 'rightness' if Lord Stuffybottom has a couple of longneck catamites holed up in the Commoner Quarter.  Think of it as an opportunity to stretch your RP within a different belief system rather then a reason to quash and conform it.

[Quirk]

The philosophy of wholly believing nobility above themselves suggests noble-assassinations could not exist.  So ya'll go ahead and play boring drones who sit nodding and grunting at taverns, meanwhile I'll be out in the fray, stirring trouble (realistic according to your views or not.)  :twisted:

Eh, nonsense. A goodly number of medieval clergy were offed by soldiers who firmly believed that the church was the path to their eternal salvation because they were ordered by their lords or kings to do so, and so they obediently went ahead with it. As for nobles having other nobles killed, the command from the noble who you serve overrides any respect you might have for the noble you're assassinating - your lord is the most important lord .

Of course, that's not to imply that a commoner would never have cause to attempt to have a noble killed. The father who's had his daughter raped by young Lord Inbreed will undoubtedly find very human feelings rising above any culturally-imbued respect for his Lordship. But the default position for the vast majority of commoners who have not been rendered some gross wrong by a noble would be of respect and of viewing the nobility as superior.

Incidentally, this has been touched on a few times by the staff; one such post is:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4613&highlight=nobles

where Sanvean states that "The vast majority of Zalanthans think that nobles really are better than commoners and that's why they're nobles."

As long as you realise you're playing the exception with a commoner who secretly despises nobles, that's fine. Most commoners however really do regard nobles as better, and that's probably something you'll want to incorporate into some of your characters' RP if you're making an effort to really realise the culture of Zalanthas.

Quirk

[Old Timer]

Actually, I agree with both your points, Quirk and Ahseyw.

All I care is about is not hearing some nonsense that I am an unrealistic commoner when I seek to lash vengeance out upon a noble by snugly fitting my venomed blade between their ribs  :twisted:.

If I can do that according to the documentation you've laid out, I'll happily concede to the argument.  Which it sounds like I can.  Adieu!

[My 2 sids]

The Price Experiment.  This experiment is well known in the sociology and psychology community points out exactly how people can indeed come to believe some people are better than others. During the 1970's a teacher wanted to teach her children the injustice of racism in America. One day she divided the class into groups according to eye color.  She told the class that all the blue-eyed children were above the other eye colors.  Therefore the teacher made sure the blue-eye children were treated better.  Anyone without blue eyes could not ask questions in class, had to stand in the back of the line, had to stand at their desks, etc.  HOWEVER, it was soon evident this experiment in trying to teach injustice backfired.  In a matter of WEEKS the subjects in the experiment had changed their entire belief system.  The blue-eyed children actually did think they were better than any others (including friends from kindergarten and other family members!)  The brown/green eyed children also changed.  They really did think they were less than the blue-eyed children.  Many of them had years of therapy to keep them from being suicidal.  

Just a bit of FYI

[Cyrin]

I was always under the impression that after a week of that, the teacher reversed the students' "class" positions.

Pun intended.

[Bogre]

Now personally, I don't like the opinion that all 'rinthers hate nobility and the militia and everything. I still think a good portion of 'rinthers are just southsiders that ran into hard times. Mostly due to money issues and didn't have any choice but to move into the 'rinth. Sure alot of them might... But most of them are just poor citizens that can't afford anything else.

Creeper

Ah, but when you see Templars arresting rinthers, having their soldiers kill your companions, it tends to instill hate. Even if not open and shown because of the concern for one's own neck.

I think most rinthers want to avoid  open or even secret confrontations with Templars, because they are even more apt to fear them because they live ina  crime filled area.