Mdesc-hiding masks

[Brokkr]

You aren't addressing anticipated (or for those of us that were around, observed) player behavior when they are in possession of said objects, and what to put in place to avoid the same issues that were present before.

I'm not intentionally trying to make this frustrating for you. There are more things than this that haven't made their way back into play simply because we can't find a good solution over multiple years/decades. Making some fairly simple suggestions without some solid solutions to those problems, isn't what brings those sorts of things back.

[azuriolinist]

You aren't addressing anticipated (or for those of us that were around, observed) player behavior when they are in possession of said objects, and what to put in place to avoid the same issues that were present before.

I'm not intentionally trying to make this frustrating for you. There are more things than this that haven't made their way back into play simply because we can't find a good solution over multiple years/decades. Making some fairly simple suggestions without some solid solutions to those problems, isn't what brings those sorts of things back.

Can you elaborate on the types of player behavior and problems you mean? I honestly have little idea what really went down with these masks' removal.

[ShaLeah]

On Armageddon? I rarely see anyone make an effort to hide their identity that goes beyond throwing on a facewrap, or at most, a different cloak. If you keep wearing the same armor and clothes that you had on every day of the last few years? I'll remember you, whether or not I can see your face.

You rarely see it because masks don't work the way they used to before. How much time do you spend in Red Storm? There are characters that NEVER take down their hood. Ever.
If you see someone every day you MIGHT recognize them by their usual clothing, sure, but if that person is leading a double life and raiding you and you can't see their mdesc you can't guarantee it's him, no soldier will believe that that person sitting next to you is the one that raided you. Do you have proof? Your word against his/hers? How big is your bribe to get that person pinched?

Conflict. It does Armageddon good.

You can't have much conflict with someone when you have no idea who they are, and no way to find out. Any interaction is going to be extremely one-sided. A soldier can chose to believe you or not either way - it's always going to be your word against his or her word.

Plenty of conflict without knowing who the other person is.  Ask the victims of sorcerors, whirans, drovians, psis. People will be scared shitless, suspicious.  Could be the guy sitting right next to you.  Could be your lover. If you think conflict is limited only towards a foe you know you are missing one of THE best, scariest things on Zalanthas!

You may not want that kind of thing but I love it!

[Marauder Moe]

Throwing out some ideas:

*Make it a check on city-hide vs. city hunt, watch, and/or scan.  Garble the mdesc with something like the language filter for partial success.  Some masks may provide a bonus/penalty for this check.

*Make smarter and more varied generated sdescs for hooded/masked figures.  Take stats/race into consideration rather than just relative height/weight.

*Make masks themselves varied in sdesc, so at least you don't have everyone looking like a Guy Fawkes wannabe.

[ShaLeah]

You aren't addressing anticipated (or for those of us that were around, observed) player behavior when they are in possession of said objects, and what to put in place to avoid the same issues that were present before.

I'm not intentionally trying to make this frustrating for you. There are more things than this that haven't made their way back into play simply because we can't find a good solution over multiple years/decades. Making some fairly simple suggestions without some solid solutions to those problems, isn't what brings those sorts of things back.

I was around back then and while fairly simple may be right, most of those things were not available as counter measures for schmuck, twinky playing. They weren't exactly illegal now, were they.

These changes pose a much greater risk and cost to the criminal as well as a much greater chance at much greater reward for those lucky enough to nab one of those things.

I can't say those in charge of the removal back then took the time to think of ways we COULD keep them. We have unfortunately adopted a big "remove the problem instead of fixing it" policy, maybe because it's easier to remove than repair  Either way though, even if someone DID think about these possible solutions, that does not mean the higher ups were open to it or listening. 

It took disliking a change that did not affect me or the types of characters I play, living with it anyway for however long, having a sponsored role in a GMH house that kept most her ideas to herself,  watching ONE random guy get arrested and dragged off for me to wonder wtf soldiers don't yank that shit down and reveal the criminal and my thread on the matter to be derailed for me to think more about it and list proposed changes. 
This shit brewed 15yrs, I know damn well staff didn't put 15yrs of thought in keeping trying to keep the masks. If they did, let me be the first to say, I feel ya, fam. Good looking out.

[azuriolinist]

Let's make it like steel forging and spice making, let's make it GMH proprietary and render independent crafters completely unable to determine how to make it or what materials it's made of. Impossible to replicate so you know it's source.  Make the GMHs ledger every sale, every request documented.

I wonder what I'm not covering.

As neat as this would be, I feel as if the conflict this might generate would be unrealistic and downright comical, considering a concealing mask can be as simple as some cloth fitted over the head.

I'm fairly sure there are other ways to explore that kind of conflict without having to justify its realism ICly.

[X-D]

Going back a ways.

What would the mechanic be to reveal the identity of the mdesc-hiding mask wearer?

Now the answer to this has already been mentioned, as other muds have that mechanic.

I do not remember what it is called in SOI, but let us call it the study skill. This is a skill/command that allows you to study somebodies features.

Study masked dude. The code would make it very obvious to everybody around that you are taking a good hard look at this masked/hooded pc, then depending on skill, maybe certain stats, disguise quality, and after a hefty delay you would get a return. The quality of the return would vary of course, anything from one or two words of the mdesc to something nearly complete. Usually it would look like scribble halfway through its lifespan...cept missing words instead of letters.

Lizzie, your examples are unrealistic and pulled from people who have no intent to hide who they are.
Stick a simple cloak on that guy and you would not know if it was your brother. Also example of whole head mask.
Add some fine mesh cloth to the inside and not gonna see the eyes either.
Well known mask here, takes care of every head feature...again, throw on a billowy cloak with a hood and even a study skill is not going to reveal anything.

[ShaLeah]

Let's make it like steel forging and spice making, let's make it GMH proprietary and render independent crafters completely unable to determine how to make it or what materials it's made of. Impossible to replicate so you know it's source.  Make the GMHs ledger every sale, every request documented.

I wonder what I'm not covering.

As neat as this would be, I feel as if the conflict this might generate would be unrealistic and downright comical, considering a concealing mask can be as simple as some cloth fitted over the head.

I'm fairly sure there are other ways to explore that kind of conflict without having to justify its realism ICly.

Realism.  Cause people fly. And dwarves exist. And sharps.  And people conjuring fireballs.

I was mostly being facetious with that just to emphasize that if THAT is what it takes to bring real masks back we should consider it because that prop was a vital part of the scare factor on the mud.

I feel it should be brought back.

[azuriolinist]

Realism.  Cause people fly. And dwarves exist. And sharps.  And people conjuring fireballs.

I was mostly being facetious with that just to emphasize that if THAT is what it takes to bring real masks back we should consider it because that prop was a vital part of the scare factor on the mud.

I feel it should be brought back.

Gotcha.

I'd also love to see them in-game. I think this could lead to more conflict that doesn't necessarily have to immediately end with PK.

*Make smarter and more varied generated sdescs for hooded/masked figures.  Take stats/race into consideration rather than just relative height/weight.

These would be fantastic.

[Veselka]

It isn't about code.

It is about coming up with solutions for the problems that got them removed in the first place.

Which is harder than just throwing out 'what if' code scenarios.

I think this is a fair way of approaching it. Because honestly, I've been sitting here wondering...Why do we need desc hiding masks? What purpose do they serve? This may seem pedantic, but it sort of gets at the root of why they were problematic, and some possible solutions.

So...What do M/SDesc hiding masks do? (As it stands at least as far as I know)

1. They cover up the Desc/Sdesc of a PC.
2. They make it difficult to tell which PC it is when looking at them.
3. They are wearable by the PC, either on the face or the head.
4. They cannot be removed except by that PC wearing the mask.

What do they facilitate?

1. They facilitate crime, for the most part, or doing illicit acts that cannot be traced to a PC.
2. Used in tandem with sneak/hide, they make for a much smoother getaway.
3. They prevent the identity of a person being immediately known when they commit a crime and are seen. (This is for better and for worse).

What purposes could it serve? And let's think outside of the box a little.

1. Criminals
2. Raiders
3. Soldiers (Think dirty cops in on the take, or committing crime themselves)
4. Masquerades
5. Meetings where the identity of those involved isn't to be known (Think Eyes Wide Shut, or secret Guild meetings with a Templar present)
6. Spies -- A way to cover identities both from employer and employee, if divulging information that would get them killed immediately.

What are the drawbacks?

1. Without a PC to attach to the crimes/acts committed, it creates the sort of 'Anonymous Troll' attitude, or at least the possibility of it. This is to mean -- A very powerful assassin with a M/SDesc hiding mask could kill wantonly without much repercussion, and even come up with IC justifications to do so.
2. The same goes for Raiders, Criminals, or others who would more likely fall into a cycle of abuse of this code. It would be difficult not to. Why not use the M/Sdesc hiding mask when it is infallible? Why commit any crimes without it?

Conclusion:

There is absolutely a place for M/Sdesc hiding masks, but there need to be drawbacks intrinsic to their use. This means code, and this means documentation as well. I can think of a few drawbacks off the cuff.

1. The M/Sdesc hiding mask is not infallible. It presents a strong chance of working when someone looks at you, but 25% of the time, someone gets a full gander at your Desc. This isn't achieved by spamming look at someone -- It's based on perhaps whether you have scan active, your watch skill, etc.

2. The M/Sdesc hiding mask can be removed in combat. Make them very weak armor, so that a single blow to the head can shatter them (Akin to the very weak 'hairpin dagger' that shatters on the first stab).

3. Don't gatekeep them. They shouldn't be a valuable resource, or difficult to obtain, but they should be very illegal to own and keep in your possession. I've already seen laws on poisons and other contraband become very lenient over the years, mostly from a lack of reinforcement. Sometimes this depends on who's in charge and who the person is, but with these masks/hiding your identity, it should be very illegal. The simple law could be 'Hiding your identity from the common folk and law of the city is considered illegal, and one's identity must be readily made available upon request.'

4. Make them decay, instead. Attach a variation of the 'food spoiling' code on the masks, if you want to add in an OOC constraint on their use. They can't sit and collect dust in Salarr's storeroom to be used by the next uber assassin in line. They can be found, yes, they can be used, yes, but they have a half-life and must be repurchased or found through a shady contact. Make them available in the Elven Blackmarket, and through Guild contacts, or even Kurac.

5. Create a staff echo when someone wears the mask, so they know when they are being used, and can be tracked.

6. Hell, make it so if you wear a M/Sdesc hiding mask, it exempts you from crime code both ways. Anyone can attack you without being sent to jail while you are wearing the mask.

Just some thoughts on it.

[Narf]

6. Hell, make it so if you wear a M/Sdesc hiding mask, it exempts you from crime code both ways. Anyone can attack you without being sent to jail while you are wearing the mask.

Just some thoughts on it.

I really like this suggestion.

That said, I like the idea of making masks less reliable, or have downsides in order to avoid abusive situations.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the idea of successfully seeing past a mask offering snippets of the main desc. It should never be full. I'm alright with a mask working most of the time.

I'd even be alright with a disguise skill, where you had to train a skill to fully mask yourself. You'd have to wear gear in certain places, and it'd have to be appropriate gear, maybe with a flag, where the falcon half-mask doesn't work, but the dun face-shield does.

[Mercy]

You can't perform actions when subduing someone.

Why not have a command that can only be used on someone who is subdued, so it becomes a tag-team action? One person holds them down, the other rips the mask/hood off. I'm not going to suggest reworking subdue code entirely, but having a command contingent on someone being subdued by another party seems feasible enough to me.

Also, since hack is a thing, could hack be used to target masks as well? To facilitate the combat-removal suggestion earlier in the thread.

[Riev]

Also, since hack is a thing, could hack be used to target masks as well? To facilitate the combat-removal suggestion earlier in the thread.

snatchmask mercy

You fail, and snatch your own face off, instead!
*beep*

[HavokBlue]

The tiered accessibility proposal is just as ICly jarring as the difficulty of getting lockpicks used to be. We'll end up with posts two years from now asking why a new player needs to greb salt for two weeks to afford a mask when they can walk into the bazaar and buy one that should functionally afford the exact same anonymity.

I don't have answers to the balance question but I don't think artificial scarcity and cost and secrecy are a solution.

[Riev]

The tiered accessibility proposal is just as ICly jarring as the difficulty of getting lockpicks used to be. We'll end up with posts two years from now asking why a new player needs to greb salt for two weeks to afford a mask when they can walk into the bazaar and buy one that should functionally afford the exact same anonymity.

I don't have answers to the balance question but I don't think artificial scarcity and cost and secrecy are a solution.

Can it not be as simple (of course it can't) as flagging any items as 'mask' and make them illegal to possess or wear? We're not in 2000s era America, we're in goddamned Allanak. If you're walking around the city with a burlap sack and two eye-holes cut out, a soldier is just going to toss you in the jails for being suspicious. Its a police state.

Higher end masks aren't going to "hide more" than a burlap sack, but holy shit would it be fun to have any full mask or face-guards give you an mdesc of the mask itself. Whether its to increase crime, or have a masked vigilante superhero, or just so that you can go raid some salter and then buy them a drink at the bar later... anonymity has always been lacking in the game. Maybe the Way is a cause, I don't know. Barrier + Mask should be RELATIVELY safe though.

[HavokBlue]

I don't feel like just flagging them as illegal solves anything either. It's ICly jarring (what constitutes a mask? is it now a crime to protect your face in a sandstorm? is that full helmet illegal?) and it doesn't add any sort of interesting gameplay or roleplay. The difference is now you just have to train sneak and hide more before you 'unlock' the ability to use masks safely. Sure, it functions as an OOC balancing factor, but it doesn't do it in a way that I find particularly engaging, fun, or useful to anyone's gameplay experience. The end result is that some guild boss PC and his buddies have great masks and master hide/sneak, and the rest end up in some templar's footlocker after being pulled off a corpse in a jail cell.

[X-D]

Only if you fall into the same trap which is the reason mdesc hiding masks were taken out to begin with Havokblue...making them rare, hard to get, pricy. Make them common and cheap and just like days of old, in order for many of them to work to hide mdesc they had to be worn on the head, this should continue to work that way. Wear on face and get to wear helm but does not hide mdesc only sdesc. Wear on head, no helm and hides mdesc.

Again, make them common and cheap, stigmatize them IN game and all past problems solved.

Leaving only the "But people will abuse them." argument, but that one has always been silly. You cannot abuse it.

[Veselka]

I agree. I would lean towards making them cheap and ubiquitous but incredibly illegal to possess/use, weak to wear (takes up your head slot, can be destroyed in combat easily) and I imagine their abuse will markedly decrease.

In our current societal standards (with obvious religious exceptions, and things like extreme cold weather) wearing a full mask is also sort of 'illegal' in modern society. You can't walk into a liquor store with a feature-obscuring ski mask and peruse the selection.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wouldn't make them illegal to own. I'd make wearing any face-coverings, on the head or across the face, illegal for everyone in civilized areas who's not a Templar/Noble. I'd give the PC a counter. The counter, using NPC soldiers, would echo [NPC Soldier eyes you closely], and when that counter hit three, you'd be wanted, just to give people a chance to take off that mask they had when they came in from the desert. And when you mask yourself, the PC should get an echo along the lines of [You obscure your facial features.] so that nobody accidentally does it without knowing it.

If we're using the idea that you no longer wear a helm when you wear a mask to disguise yourself, people that wear them across the face shouldn't have any problem. This is a desert world - people need masks and veils and whatnot to guard their face. In civilized areas, however, you don't need them.

That whole "abusing it" idea doesn't make sense to me, really. That's the whole point of masks, even IRL. We don't need to add masks, either. Look at the ones we have, give the ones that meet masking requirements an [is_ mask] flag that people can see when they shop for them, and leave them the same price as they are.

[Cind]

How about:

A character will have the flags: female, adult, and human.

They can then wear a mask which fulfills two or all three of those conditions.

As an example I will give you two masks which in a perfect world should be in the game on certain people at certain times.

1. A ceramic, pale woman's visage dominates the face of this mask in a plain, stylized manner, save for the dots of gold paint surrounding the eyeholes and the ruby-red paint on the ceramic lips, too red to be real. The same red paint sweeps out from above the eyeholes, as eyelashes, in between the tiny dots of golden paint. Upon closer inspection or as the figure moves in the light, see-through glitter in colors that might best be described as lavender or pink pearl-dust have been smeared with clear glue upon the cheekbones of the mask, too faint to be seen in dim lighting. Clearly sized for a human, this mask is also clearly too delicate for everyday use.
(This mask has the conditions: female, human, average(size.)) <--- The conditions would be visible like this in the game as well, especially since we have a few players for whom English isn't their first language.

2. A mixture of grey silt, mixed with water into a mud, and white clay have been molded and shaped into a plain mask with almond-shaped eyeholes, painted in shades of black that suggest it was made for camouflage in the dark. The mask's outline is somewhat rough, and appears sized for the average elf, although a half-giant could wear it at length if they utilized the cloth part effectively. Even the inside of the mask has been painted black, to cover all corners, and a double-wrapping of dark grey linen keeps the mask on the face. The edges of the wrapping are embroidered, as though they were originally taken from some other clothing or item with a finer value.
(This mask has the conditions: elf, half-giant, large, immense.)

See, when the yellow-haired elf arrives in the world, he can wear the second mask, and not the first. Because the flags would be present on all masks, he simply could not put on the first one--- the game wouldn't allow him.

This is because he does not fulfill the conditions 'female' 'average size' or 'human.' This is where the translation would get a little wonky, but it would prevent him, and newbies, and griefers from wearing a mask meant for a human female. If even a human male of average size were to wear the first mask, people should know right away that this is a man wearing it. But they wouldn't--- therefore, he can't put on the mask in the first place. Logically he would know this and not try to put it on anyway. I hope this makes it clear what the idea is trying to represent.

To be clear about how many conditions you would need--- one, two? Any elf and any half-giant should be able to put on the second mask. For example, while two of the conditions are 'large' and 'immense', a small half-giant fulfills the 'half-giant' condition and should be able to put it on anyway, even if they're the smallest person to use that particular mask so far.

[Lizzie]

Then no one would be able to wear a quirri mask. or a jozhal mask. or any of the other dozen or so masks that look like an animal head.

Said it once, said it a thousand times: a mask is not a disguise. It should not be treated as a disguise. It shouldn't be RPed as one, it shouldn't be coded as one, it shouldn't be flagged as one. A disguise is head to toe. If you wear all the same stuff you always wear, plus a mask, anyone who knows the stuff you always wear, will be able to take an "educated guess" and know it's you. It works in reverse too: if someone kills you and takes all your stuff, is the same general size as you, wears all your stuff and dons the mask, anyone who knows you, should be able to take the same educated guess and assume they are you.

And yes, if you wear the same stuff that everyone else wears right out of chargen, then people should be taking educated guesses and assuming it's whoever they know who matches the general size of you, the clothing you wear, and the mask. They should not be assuming it's jewelry-hog Amos who is usually covered head to toe in rubies diamonds and emeralds. UNLESS they know that Amos likes doing that stuff. In which case - he falls into the "educated guess" category like the others.

As for making facewraps hoods, other facial coverings illegal: no. It's a desert world. Wind and sandstorms happen. That is a primary function of these items: to protect the face from wind, blazing sun, and sandstorms. They should be treated a bit more conservatively than they are INSIDE buildings that are commonly patronized by normal citizenry and the local authorities: your face needs to be uncovered. If you forget, and ANYONE points it out to you - authority or not - you should immediately realize that you need to pull it down, because you're not just committing a faux pas, you're committing what CAN be a crime if you're caught refusing to comply.  That right there's is a great way for the Militia to make some spending coins: fining anyone they see inside a building in the city with their hood up, or a facewrap on, or any other thing that obscures their sdesc.

Also - I feel that ANY face covering should make it impossible to eat or drink anything at all. That kind of thing bugs me more than eyes in sdescs bugs XD. You should get an echo reminding you to take your face covering off if you want to get the food into your mouth, or put the lip of the mug up to the lip of your face.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Then make wearing the mask on the head slot illegal, if not the face. I personally think that any real face-covering (note that this is not for things like gauzy wraps and shit) shouldn't be allowed in civilized areas, even if they are not being worn as masks. It's super easy to read the main description of an item, however, and decide if they should be flagged to trigger mask code.

And yeah, a mask is not a disguise. But it covers the facial features, and that's all we're having an discussion about. If some Aide you've worked with for 4 years just puts on a mask, you'll know it's them, but you still can't see their face. Yes, you can, and should, make an educated guess, based on a ton of things, like the way they speak, words they chose, way they emote, clothes they wear, so on and so forth. But you still can't see their face - that's all the masks are doing.

And yeah, I'm down with face-coverings making it impossible to eat or drink until you remove them.

[Cind]

Mostly, I was thinking of a way to prevent the sort of misuse that got them kicked out in the first place.

What if a mask replaced your mdesc with its own, but gave you the information on the person that you would have gotten with >access?

>l figure

>This black mask is shadowy, thiefy and dark, and is mostly made up of strips of sandcloth of varying degrees of coarseness, suggesting they were pulled from different bolts of material. A couple of long tails trail behind it in the wind, extra material left behind from inefficient sewing.
She is taller than you.
She is much heavier than you are.
She is in moderate condition.
She does not appear tired.

Its not perfect, but I don't think this would lead to masks being pulled eventually. Its also quite a bit easier to deal with than the earlier idea I posted.

It would not give the information "She is mature for her race" because you can't see her face.

Someone else put up this idea before, I think.

If done like this though, masks would become something everyone would want. I mean they'd be easy to make... but perhaps restrict some to clothworking and others to crafts like clayworking. Make having a mask in the streets of Allanak be suspicious as hell, with the Arm easily bothering anyone wearing one in public who isn't attending some kind of mask party.

[X-D]

Cind, the mask was not misused in the first place. It was the way people acted about them, how far out of the way they went to get them and the value of them. Of course all that was because they were so hard to get.

Lizzie, You are looking at this from a rather odd and unrealistic angle...AND by definition... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disguise a mask of any kind is indeed a disguise. A mask concealing the entire head and face along with eyes is REALLY a disguise. Almost everything else in a mdesc is covered by every pc all the time anyway. You are the one being unrealistic about how much you actually see and notice on a PC. After all, you are right, somebody might say in mdesc that they have a mane of purple hair going down their back. But do you rp seeing that when they are wearing a cloak with the hood up?