The value of money and RP

[oggotale]

Curious about this.

The economy of any game trying to be roleplay intensive is excruciatingly hard to code properly.

Taking for a given that a huge majority of characters would realistically prefer more money to less, there's almost always a difference between what your character CAN earn, which is a function of code and certain IC circumstances, vis a vis what he SHOULD earn, which is a function of whatever the realistic value of money is deemed to be and a function of your character in terms of his IC traits.

A. How does this work in arm? Do you personally ever have to bother differentiating between how much coin you can earn and should, or do you find the script smooth enough for you not to bother with that?

More interestingly:

B. If your particular circumstances mean you have to keep this distinction in mind, what is the realistic value for money for your character you try to peg your wealth around?
How much do you perceive is a realistic income per IC year for say a 1. Usual Commoner 2. Successful indie merchant or crafter 3. Noble and GMHer?

P.S. This question might seem unusual to you guys since im realizing Arms economy isn't as fucked as that in my previous RP environment. In my last game, money was so stupidly easy to get that everyone more or less had to OOCly stop their characters from doing certain stupidly rewarding jobs that there characters had no IC reason for shying away from.

[cnemus]

The economy of Arm is usually an intense discussion. Like many aspects of the game, documentation and setting have a range of interpretations (but we should all be trying to support and express documentation). I'm happy to share my perspective, but my intent is not to tell anyone how to play their character. The foundation of everything, for everyone, is hopefully 'what does you character think/feel/do about x, y, and z?'.

A. Short answer: I try to find a way to include natural IC motivations to address any disparity. I try to build a concept of how a given character will approach money (or what it can buy) and then stick to that target in both acquiring and potentially saving. Some will get only enough to get by and spend it as soon as possible. Others will try to get as much as possible and hoard it without spending any. Regardless of this, I try to maintain a fairly constant reaction to the 'value' of money based on a core concept. One suggestion is the cost of a skin of water, one of the most necessary resources in Zalanthas. So every interaction with money gets run through an internal formula of 'how does this value to water?' This formula does not work for a character that has had relatively unlimited access to water for their whole life, you have to find something that works for each character.

B. Short answer: Based on the character's background. 1. Commoners: enough to get by. 2. Enough to have money on hand to buy things on the spur of the moment. 3. Enough money on hand to throw it at things.  There can be a lot of variation in what a character can realistically make and spend, but it is usually balanced by the cost of living and lifestyle. Commoners might just get by with basic food and water, possibly a place to live if you have ways to cut down on other expenses. A nice home, quality food, expensive drinks, fashionable clothing, and other luxury expenses are a good way to sink money in higher economic brackets. Also, keep in mind GMH and nobles are really not anywhere near the same 'tier' or 'class'. A GMHer exists to make money, a noble exists to spend it (broad generalization, other concepts exist and are perfectly valid). It is also entirely possible (though difficult) to get by and have a character never earn or spend a single coin... and even to become wealthy!

Some of the things you're asking about vary greatly from place to place. The best answers to these questions are have your character act true to their concept and to watch what other people do.

[Marauder Moe]

A. How does this work in arm? Do you personally ever have to bother differentiating between how much coin you can earn and should, or do you find the script smooth enough for you not to bother with that?

Most clans drastically under-pay their members.  That said, this can be explained in a few ways, such as you're getting paid in food, a bed, and safety, and/or that you're only getting coded money for time spent logged in, and you get more "virtual" salary for doing virtual work which you then spend on virtual luxuries.

If you are a savvy and industrious hunter, grebber, and/or crafter, you can indeed generate excessive amounts of coin.  I would say most well-RPed characters like that either voluntarily curtail their efforts, or at least find excuses to spread that money around through bribes, gifts, and plot-generating endeavors.

B. If your particular circumstances mean you have to keep this distinction in mind, what is the value for money you use?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I've estimated the value of an obsidian coin to be about $0.25-0.50 in terms of American buying power.

How much do you perceive is a realistic income per IC year for say a 1. Usual Commoner 2. Successful indie merchant or crafter 3. Nobl and GMHer?

Hard to say.  Clans seem to pay the average worker around 900 coins/year.  An indie hunter/grebber/crafter can easily make 10000 a year.  I suspect nobles and GMH probably get a yearly stipend around 3000-5000, but it's been a while since I did any noble's accounting. 

[oggotale]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I've estimated the value of an obsidian coin to be about $0.25-0.50 in terms of American buying power.

So you mentioned that hunters curtail their efforts as an example right, im asking what you would peg as that point of cash beyond which youd curtail your efforts.
The idea is that you wouldnt want to become "unrealistically rich". When im asking about the value of money i just mean to ask about where you would draw the line.

[MeTekillot]

A. How does this work in arm? Do you personally ever have to bother differentiating between how much coin you can earn and should, or do you find the script smooth enough for you not to bother with that?

Most clans drastically under-pay their members.  That said, this can be explained in a few ways, such as you're getting paid in food, a bed, and safety, and/or that you're only getting coded money for time spent logged in, and you get more "virtual" salary for doing virtual work which you then spend on virtual luxuries.

If you are a savvy and industrious hunter, grebber, and/or crafter, you can indeed generate excessive amounts of coin.  I would say most well-RPed characters like that either voluntarily curtail their efforts, or at least find excuses to spread that money around through bribes, gifts, and plot-generating endeavors.

B. If your particular circumstances mean you have to keep this distinction in mind, what is the value for money you use?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I've estimated the value of an obsidian coin to be about $0.25-0.50 in terms of American buying power.

How much do you perceive is a realistic income per IC year for say a 1. Usual Commoner 2. Successful indie merchant or crafter 3. Nobl and GMHer?

Hard to say.  Clans seem to pay the average worker around 900 coins/year.  An indie hunter/grebber/crafter can easily make 10000 a year.  I suspect nobles and GMH probably get a yearly stipend around 3000-5000, but it's been a while since I did any noble's accounting.

I got around 18k a year as a junior noble.

[MeTekillot]

I think. Could have been 9k

[Eyeball]

Here I go, playing this record again.

For a commoner, money doesn't really have any value in amounts beyond a few thousand coins. There's nothing to buy with it. Not houses, not other properties, not wagons, not NPC hirelings, not low-end titles, nada.

This more or less kills what is a prime motivator in real life, namely greed, and who knows how many plots with it.

I'd like to see (1) greed restored to the game by adding a few big ticket items that can, with diligence, be purchased, (2) a few real treasures placed around the deadly wilderness and some hints made available on where to find them, and (3) crafting/grebbing made less lucrative.

[MeTekillot]

I think. Could have been 9k

Pretty sure it was nine on further consideration. Values could be different now, that was 4 years ago.

[Delirium]

I think. Could have been 9k

If it was 3k per payout, that means it was 6k per month, so 18k per year.

To answer OP's question, the hard obsidian numbers can vary greatly.

For a subsistence-living, virtual commoner living with their extended family in a cramped hovel just to survive, they would probably be lucky to see 500-1000 per year. Player characters rarely stick to that level of poverty throughout their lives, though.

Merchant House employees likely see about 3,000 - 7,000 per year on average.

In contrast, junior nobles see stipends ranging between 12,000 to 30,000 per year depending on their House.

In reality, you can blow through money very fast, even unrealistically so. Just buy a round at the bar and you've blown 500 coin.

The economy is not balanced and it likely never will be, but if you're looking for hard numbers, look at rent, water and food costs, then extrapolate from there (that isn't even counting new clothes, etc). Say your character wants to have enough money in the bank to support themselves in comfort and style when they get old. 100,000 would support a PLAYER character for maybe 10, 20 years depending on how rich they want to live. So that would be a goal for a successful commoner to have saved up after 30, 40 years of working hard.

Sound like a lot? It is. It's a stupidly high amount. But water, food, and apartment costs drive that number.

Most commoners (not including our unusually successful player-characters) live hard, scrappy lives on the edge of survival. If you want to go that route, it is very easy to find things to blow money on. In the coded reality, clothes and armor rarely tear, weapons rarely break, you don't have virtual demands on your money like family, you're rarely stolen from, so on and so forth.

But you can simulate those things to your heart's content. You can give bribes to people. For commoners, 300-500 coins is a standard amount. You can buy drinks. Buy fancy food at the bar instead of hunting it yourself. Develop a gambling problem. Become a fashionista. Collect (x) types of objects and always buy them when you see them. Buy food and fill waterskins up and "junk" them to support your virtual family.

Etc, etc, etc.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I've estimated the value of an obsidian coin to be about $0.25-0.50 in terms of American buying power.

So you mentioned that hunters curtail their efforts as an example right, im asking what you would peg as that point of cash beyond which youd curtail your efforts.
The idea is that you wouldnt want to become "unrealistically rich". When im asking about the value of money i just mean to ask about where you would draw the line.

It's really a judgement call.  I can't give you a hard figure.  The wealthier you are (or at least the wealthier you appear), the more likely you are to attract dangerous attention.  If you're willing to try and move up in the world and deal with the consequences of that, you can keep earning.

If you're trying to play a more average indy, maybe you take a break when your gear is in good repair and you've got a healthy buffer to afford food/drinks for a few RL weeks.

I think. Could have been 9k

Pretty sure it was nine on further consideration. Values could be different now, that was 4 years ago.

Any numbers from my end would be like 8 years old, heh.  It probably also varies from house to house.  A Borsail probably gets more than a Fale.

[Eyeball]

Yes, there are ways to blow large sums of money. Who hasn't played a wastrel who pisses it all away on booze or spice or virtual whores. The problem is they are only for the ambitionless.

Saving for a retirement fund? Sorry, that's just not the stuff of excitement and adventure.

Give us something substantial to go risk our necks to gain.

[Delirium]

It was just an example. I agree that there are many fun things to do with money.

Sometimes it makes sense to hoard a good portion of it, but it's usually more fun to spend it.

[Heade]

Here I go, playing this record again.

For a commoner, money doesn't really have any value in amounts beyond a few thousand coins. There's nothing to buy with it. Not houses, not other properties, not wagons, not NPC hirelings, not low-end titles, nada.

This more or less kills what is a prime motivator in real life, namely greed, and who knows how many plots with it.

I'd like to see (1) greed restored to the game by adding a few big ticket items that can, with diligence, be purchased, (2) a few real treasures placed around the deadly wilderness and some hints made available on where to find them, and (3) crafting/grebbing made less lucrative.

I like your ideas except for the last one. That part, I think is fine. It allows people who want to play up and comers who get squashed to do so, and allows others to play people just scraping by, based purely on how industrious they want to be with code. Let people RP. You know how much someone would have to spam and deal with bullshit to come up with half the sid some nobles get? It's a lot. No reason to make it more spammy than it already is. That would have other effects on the economy, as well. Because if Crafter X wants to make 1000 sid for something. They're going to make their 1000 sid. The only difference will be, instead of them loading the shop with 5x of an item, they'll load it with 10x of two items, causing further items to be capped out so others can't sell. Small changes can have large effects, and I don't think there is a major problem with the economy right now. Right now, this is basically the order of wealth:

Nobles
GMH Merchants
Independent Merchants
Everyone else

And that, to me, seems about right. So, regardless of inflation of IG coins, which is another matter altogether, I think the coin generation part is on point. Just give people more things to spend their coin on. I tend to spend coins on gifts/bribes/plot generation a lot, if I'm playing an economic character, so it isn't a massive problem for my characters.

[Lizzie]

Money can be easily lost via extortion and blackmail. All you need is to be noticed by people of influence, and you have a direct route to "maintaining a modest existence." The local law enforcement and government, theoretically, would like to keep the fair to middlin' in their place, for if they don't, they risk the petty jealousies of the nobility and templarate who would wonder why the law enforcement isn't doing their job.

This is how it works in theory. Whether it works in actuality depends on the batch of players logged in from one moment to the next. I feel it does eventually work out for one reason:

When your character dies, all those thousands of sids you hoarded at Nenyuk's is gone. There are no inheritance laws, regarding bank accounts. And inheritance for apartments is: whoever rents your place next, gets all your stuff.

It works out well.

[oggotale]

Here I go, playing this record again.

For a commoner, money doesn't really have any value in amounts beyond a few thousand coins. There's nothing to buy with it. Not houses, not other properties, not wagons, not NPC hirelings, not low-end titles, nada.

This more or less kills what is a prime motivator in real life, namely greed, and who knows how many plots with it.

I'd like to see (1) greed restored to the game by adding a few big ticket items that can, with diligence, be purchased, (2) a few real treasures placed around the deadly wilderness and some hints made available on where to find them, and (3) crafting/grebbing made less lucrative.

As someone calculated above, you need a pretty ludicrous amount of money to be settled in life. There is a good amount of motivation for any PC already to be greedy, you can always get a slightly nicer apartment, and if you have one to decorate it nicely and if you have that then just get enough sid to buy the finest wines and food.

That's why I took for granted that, realistically, any PC would want more and more money, the only question in my head being whether it is needed for you the player to keep his money-making capacity in check to stop him from getting ludicrously rich (even if he can do that ICly and has the appropriate motivations to)

[CodeMaster]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think getting a warehouse is one of the big ticket items that you can be greedy for.  The money part is a small part of it (you can always grind for money; it's really tough to balance).  The rest of is an investment of time and connections.

Some things of value that I could see players being "greedy" for include being able to custom craft things (even if it's just a one-off), an exclusive conveniently located stable in a small village outside Allanak, safety deposit box access in a cool location (the 'rinth?  Red Storm, which has no bank otherwise?  It doesn't just have to be from Nenyuk), the ability to pass the gates without being searched (or to enter and exit at night), a special token that cuts your dungeon sentences in half, access to unique and coveted areas (the opportunity to walk through a back gate in Tuluk to fetch goods for someone), etc.

[senseofeven]

I think there's just not enough resources or people to spend money on, in my own opinion. Also the highest bidder usually wins, right (especially in assassin contracts)? I've noticed some PCs who are not very motivated by money or the allure to strike it big by rubbing shoulders or trying to earn favor, you don't see the commoners flocking to those who seem to have influence, power and money in order to get some scraps. It makes me feel like IG money isn't /that/ heavy compared to the first time I played.

The money circulates, but perhaps my perspective is just one quarter of the role play.

[Erythil]

The IC situation we seem to be in is that any wealth beyond your primary outfit is largely superfluous, because all of the cool stuff you'd want to spend your money on is heavily gated.  And if you get too much money, the tax man will just come and take it from you until you are deemed to have an appropriate amount.  I think this is largely working as intended, but I personally would prefer a wider variety of cool things to spend money on for people who want to have fun making and spending lots of money.

But then, the ease of thievery is discouraging there, too.  I had a character make himself a full set of housewares, furniture, all kinds of everyday knicknacks that wouldn't be high ticket thievery items, and some guy came and stole all of it, everything, like 3 times in a row.

[The Warshaper]

I don't see what everyone else is seeing I guess. I can easily spend... thousands and possibly tens of thousands of sids on paying Pc's wages, bribes, Byn contracts, and trying to obtain materials for endeavors. Yes if you are solo and don't mingle with other Pc's your coin will stack up, but there are so many things you can spend it on. Perhaps I'm just not at that level of play yet but I am always scraping the bottom of my characters pocket to endeavor, having spent all of the thousands of sids that come in.

[Heade]

I don't see what everyone else is seeing I guess. I can easily spend... thousands and possibly tens of thousands of sids on paying Pc's wages, bribes, Byn contracts, and trying to obtain materials for endeavors. Yes if you are solo and don't mingle with other Pc's your coin will stack up, but there are so many things you can spend it on. Perhaps I'm just not at that level of play yet but I am always scraping the bottom of my characters pocket to endeavor, having spent all of the thousands of sids that come in.

Yeah, same. With a merchant PC that crafts and sells a LOT, I normally keep a cushion of 4-5k in the bank. Everything else goes to paying employees, bribes, byn contracts, assassinations, etc.

[Eyeball]

I don't see what everyone else is seeing I guess. I can easily spend... thousands and possibly tens of thousands of sids on paying Pc's wages, bribes, Byn contracts, and trying to obtain materials for endeavors. Yes if you are solo and don't mingle with other Pc's your coin will stack up, but there are so many things you can spend it on. Perhaps I'm just not at that level of play yet but I am always scraping the bottom of my characters pocket to endeavor, having spent all of the thousands of sids that come in.

Yeah, same. With a merchant PC that crafts and sells a LOT, I normally keep a cushion of 4-5k in the bank. Everything else goes to paying employees, bribes, byn contracts, assassinations, etc.

So what is your PC merchant's motivation? All his effort and profits just go into other peoples' pockets. Why doesn't he just ditch all that and live on selling a piece of pottery now and then, sounds like he'd be just as well off? The things you mentioned should be the road to getting somewhere, not the end themselves.

Why do people buy big ticket items in the real world, instead of just blowing everything they have? Because there's enjoyment and satisfaction and even prestige in owning them.

[Heade]

I don't see what everyone else is seeing I guess. I can easily spend... thousands and possibly tens of thousands of sids on paying Pc's wages, bribes, Byn contracts, and trying to obtain materials for endeavors. Yes if you are solo and don't mingle with other Pc's your coin will stack up, but there are so many things you can spend it on. Perhaps I'm just not at that level of play yet but I am always scraping the bottom of my characters pocket to endeavor, having spent all of the thousands of sids that come in.

Yeah, same. With a merchant PC that crafts and sells a LOT, I normally keep a cushion of 4-5k in the bank. Everything else goes to paying employees, bribes, byn contracts, assassinations, etc.

So what is your PC merchant's motivation? All his effort and profits just go into other peoples' pockets. Why doesn't he just ditch all that and live on selling a piece of pottery now and then, sounds like he'd be just as well off? The things you mentioned should be the road to getting somewhere, not the end themselves.

Before I answer your question, please understand that I'm all for more things that characters might want to spend their money on. Giving characters more options for motivations is a good thing. I don't, however, think things need to be added that they have to spend their money on.

Now, for your question, I tend to play characters that believe in something, or have goals or things they'd like to accomplish IC that are beyond the scope of just being able to afford nice stuff, good food, drinks, and whores. Nothing wrong with playing a character like that at all. I just often have loftier goals for my PCs, and so they spend their money accumulating support in pursuit of those goals, and quite often are killed because of those goals.

I try to keep it interesting. And just being comfortable and well-off isn't an RP escape for me. I can do that IRL.

[Eyeball]

Ok, so you're content with the toys that are already in the sandbox. That's fine. It doesn't mean everyone else is or should be, though. Possibly after you've played longer, you'll start looking for more toys too.

[The Warshaper]

I'd love to have wagons to pilot.

[Heade]

Ok, so you're content with the toys that are already in the sandbox. That's fine. It doesn't mean everyone else is or should be, though. Possibly after you've played longer, you'll start looking for more toys too.

Dude, did you even read the first half of my post? Also, been playing on and off since 99 or so. This isn't my first GDB account.

I'm all for more things that characters might want to spend their money on. Giving characters more options for motivations is a good thing. I don't, however, think things need to be added that they have to spend their money on.

Sure, let's have more toys, like I already said.

[senseofeven]

Okay, so to summerise;

PC Leaders or those with position would find themselves needing more coin to push plots and make things happen, yes? More coin to make the world turn in their plans of plans.

Regular commoner PCs or solo hunters find themselves having too much coin and usually (maybe) not very interested in being part in plots or could fund their own personal fun plots if they want to?

Though, I still feel the value of money < value of RP.

[Heade]

Okay, so to summerise;

PC Leaders or those with position would find themselves needing more coin to push plots and make things happen, yes? More coin to make the world turn in their plans of plans.

Regular commoner PCs or solo hunters find themselves having too much coin and usually (maybe) not very interested in being part in plots or could fund their own personal fun plots if they want to?

Though, I still feel the value of money < value of RP.

That's easy to adjust for, though. Nobles today get larger stipends than they did 15 years ago, specifically due to the inflation of the IC economy. That's the easiest way for staff to deal with it. Just giving PC leaders access to more sid, which is what they've done. I think the system in place now is working as intended, for the most part. But I wouldn't mind seeing additional big ticket items for PCs to pursue IC.

[Potaje]

Big ticket items, save for a Kuraci wagon if not an argosy. Save up your coins, and buy the supplies to start your own tribal camp and go build and fill it.

Pay for a statue to be made of yourself or in honor to someone.

Buy a door with a better lock for your apartment from Kadius.

Hire guards

Also, may try and buy your way up. Icly it should be possible, through enough sid and influence. Even if you don't get there your spending your sid on trying and you never know.

Secretively fund raiders. Buy a skimmer and hire a crew.

Find an area in a city demolished and offer to contribute to the rebuild that section with the implantation of your idea for what is build or how it should look.

Pay for expeditions across the known, either going with them or sending them. There are many things to discover in the known, not just in this tiny (large) city of Nak we are mostly all squeezed into. try not to get tunnel vision.

If you find you are over flowing with sid, start some movement to help the commoners around you and become a folk hero, rising in stature Icly with in the shadow of the highlord. Or whatever.

[Wasteland Wanderer]

Maybe crafting could be given a close look and the effect it has on the game economy.

[Narf]

Big ticket items, save for a Kuraci wagon if not an argosy. Save up your coins, and buy the supplies to start your own tribal camp and go build and fill it.

Pay for a statue to be made of yourself or in honor to someone.

Buy a door with a better lock for your apartment from Kadius.

Hire guards

Also, may try and buy your way up. Icly it should be possible, through enough sid and influence. Even if you don't get there your spending your sid on trying and you never know.

Secretively fund raiders. Buy a skimmer and hire a crew.

Find an area in a city demolished and offer to contribute to the rebuild that section with the implantation of your idea for what is build or how it should look.

Pay for expeditions across the known, either going with them or sending them. There are many things to discover in the known, not just in this tiny (large) city of Nak we are mostly all squeezed into. try not to get tunnel vision.

If you find you are over flowing with sid, start some movement to help the commoners around you and become a folk hero, rising in stature Icly with in the shadow of the highlord. Or whatever.

Not saying that any of this is impossible, but the less value that money has the harder it will be to use it to get people to do things for you. You're not just dealing with the problem of its value for you, after all. If it's not valuable for anyone, the problem compounds and people stop accepting it in exchange for services (thus causing it to accumulate and devalue more).

One solution I'd like to see tinkered with is expanding into a secondary economy. In the 1960's Russian currency lost almost all of its value internally as there wasn't much you were allowed to purchase with it (because there wasn't much you could purchase and, like here, price inflation didn't exist). This caused a second black market economy to come into existence, operating side by side with the regulated economy.

Now Zalanthas doesn't have an officially regulated economy in the lore, but due to metagame constraints on the code's interaction with supply and demand the game operates as if it did have a regulated economy. Given this, a secondary form of currency that is built from the ground up to have scarcity, and thus follow a standard supply/demand structure would make things a lot more interesting. You could still use coded 'sid generation to take care of all your necessities, but if you wanted "the good stuff" your interaction with the economy of the game would need to get more involved.

[Miradus]

Use the game's flaws to work to your advantage.

You're not going to convince the rich guy to go do something for you if he's already rich. Just like I can't convince Jeff Bezos to come mow my lawn.

But there's thirty wealthy assholes right now waiting for a set of Kuraci desert camo or an uber weapon (fancier bone sword) from Salarr.

Use your connections to go buy that set or weapon and have it waiting for when you meet the guy who needs it. "Sure, you can buy one from Kurac if you wait 2 RL months for their merchant to show up ... or I can give you this one as soon as you finish this task."

[Narf]

Use the game's flaws to work to your advantage.

You're not going to convince the rich guy to go do something for you if he's already rich. Just like I can't convince Jeff Bezos to come mow my lawn.

But there's thirty wealthy assholes right now waiting for a set of Kuraci desert camo or an uber weapon (fancier bone sword) from Salarr.

Use your connections to go buy that set or weapon and have it waiting for when you meet the guy who needs it. "Sure, you can buy one from Kurac if you wait 2 RL months for their merchant to show up ... or I can give you this one as soon as you finish this task."

That would be a small scale example of a secondary economy, with a currency of favors or Kuraci dessert gear depending on your perspective.

[Inks]

I think the currency has been vastly improved with the addition of the new classes and a lack of skin skill on most of them. Coin is valuable to my pcs even if I don't hoard it unless it is towards a goal.